Successful Settlement Visa Application

[Midlander]

My wife got her Settlement visa today; we both feel a huge sense of relief …… and happiness!!

I only found this site after her Vv was turned down last year, and during many long evenings I spent reading through pages and pages of this forum it always made me feel good to read about peoples success in getting a visa. So I thought I’d post my success and hope it gives a few of you others some hope.

I posted very little as most of my questions had been asked previously so the people I need to thank are not just the ones that answer the questions regularly on here, but the one’s that ask the questions and go through all the stress of refusals. Obviously there are few on this forum whose qualifications and experience bring a huge amount to this forum, take a bow gentlemen.

My opinion of the British Embassy, sadly, has not changed. As I understand it, I have a right to bring my wife to the UK to settle, it is the Embassies job to make sure these applications are genuine, and while the new Out Sourcing Centre has softened the face of visa applications the attitude towards applicants in interviews is frankly disgraceful. It really does depend on which ECO you get, some are much better than others. This opinion is not just formed on my wife’s applications but many of our friends and acquaintances, both successful and unsuccessful..

Our Vv application last year was wholly inadequate and combined with not having known each other long was refused, but it was unnecessary for the ECO demean my girlfriend in the way she did.

Today my wife was told the folder was too big “Why so big!” The ECO said she could not find anything despite there being an introduction and contents at the front of the file explaining where everything was. The folder had been arranged to mirror the application form, each clearly identified section corresponded to that section on the application form, each section had its own overview and contents, surely not rocket science. The evidence of contact section was sub divided into month by month. For almost 20,000baht I would expect the ECO to spend 30 minutes reading it through, it wouldn’t have took any longer, assuming they didn’t feel the need to read every single piece of evidence.

They ask for translations of relevant documents and then copies also, that amounted to an inch in the folder. I dare not leave out any evidence of contact, when the ECO threw her head back in dismay it was left to the translator to find the relevant piece of evidence in the folder, at this point my wife did not think she was going to get her visa.

My mother and her husband attended our wedding in March, in Bangkok, she has not met any other members of my family or my son, fortunately she was well drilled in all their names, my address, location, work etc. It’s a good job its not the other way round because I’d have no chance with her family’s names, I think asking questions about people you’ve never met or places you’ve never been is a poor indicator of a genuine application A lot of relevance was given to a question in which there was a misunderstanding, my wife was asked when we had first spoken, my wife then explained how we met, the ECO took great delight in telling her that was not what we had said in the application, (we had spoken on the phone a few days earlier when my clients wife had passed her mobile to me to say ‘hello’ to her friend) fortunately my wife was able to explain the misunderstanding. Interview or interrogation?

Flights allowing, Noi will be here in the UK in 2 weeks, we have known each other 13 months, we applied for a Vv after only 2 months, it was my 40th and my mother was getting remarried all in the space of 2 weeks, yes it may have been too soon but we tried anyway, Noi had been to Italy and Germany with work that year already, the ECO decided we had never really met and she doubted I had ever been to Thailand. Noi’s response to me was “I don’t want to come to your stupid country.”lol. Noi owns her own home and has a good job in Bangkok and has travelled extensively, I thought this would be enough to secure her a Vv, I was very naïve.

I have spent about 3 ½ months in Thailand in 1 year, in 2 to 3 week visits 5 in all, we knew we would marry almost straight away, just never told each other. When I was doing all my reading of post’s in the forum one of the things I found it was hard to gauge was how long couples had been together before applying for a visa, so there’s my information if its any use to anyone. I only recently found out that if you have had a visa refused you will almost certainly be asked for an interview never mind how much documentation you supply at application. I had led my wife to believe that if we made sure everything was included at the application then maybe she would not need an interview, she did not relish another tongue lashing from an ECO. Today my wife was armed and ready and answered all but 1 question without any hesitation, Noi was asked the name of my business, she replied she didn’t know I had a business name so she didn’t know, exactly right!

That’s my 2 cents on the whole visa thing, every one I speak to is amazed at the work and documentation required to get my wife into the UK, maybe if I had known before I fell in love I may have thought long and hard before getting involved, but she/we are well worth all the agro and as a last resort I would have moved to LOS to be with her, it must be love!!

Thanks again everyone!!

Andy and Noi

[the scouser]

Well done, Andy and Noi.

Scouse.

[Mossfinn]

I guess thats a double whammy Andy, being able to let off so much steam and getting the visa.

I am a still not sure whether it is a good thing or bad thing to have a great deal of evidence, some say you have too much evidence, it is too hard and difficult to look thru, what are trying to hide and others say there is not enough documentation, how can you expect to get a visa with this little evidence.

I guess it can be a case of 'you're damned if you do and you're damned if you do',

anyway it was all worth it in the end.

Good Luck and well done to you both.

Moss

[atlastaname]

Well done Andy and Noi , but in the end after all that aggro you have only been given something to which you , as a genuine married couple , are entitled to. I am glad you have grasped the point that once refused you will almost certainly be asked for an interview next time . I am constantly warning posters about this possibility, something which many of the more experienced posters here never seem to do.

Its a disgraceful situation this visa thing . There are no hard and fast rules and there should be . You shouldn't have to worry about providing too little or too much information and you shouldn't have to worry about which ECO you get on the day. There should be a factual checklist and you either qualify or you don't. Unfortunately until the mindset of the mostly timid applicants here changes , neither will the system.

Why not go and see your MP when you have a minute and put your views across , repeating what you have said here in a letter? If enough people did it things would change. Unfortunately once most people get their visas they tend to forget the suffering they had to endure to get them.

[cuddleypete]

Well done, Andy and Noi.

all the best for the future

pete and som

[GU22]

Andy and Noi, congratulations on the visa and best wishes to you for your future life together.

Unfortunately, both you and Atlastanme are suffering from a misunderstanding. There is no treaty, convention, agreement etc. giving any one who is not a British or EU citizen the 'right' to come and live in the UK. Even if that person is the legal spouse of a British citizen. Although, ironically, non EU spouses of EU citizens have more 'rights' in this regard than the non EU spouse of a British citizen!

Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights does say

1.Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

but goes on to say

2.There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

In other words, an individual state's immigration rules and policy takes precedence.

However, as far as the UK is concerned, as long as you show that on the balance of probabilities the relationship is genuine and you can support and accommodate yourselves without recourse to public funds then you will get the visa.

Atlastaname argues, yet again, for a rigid set of rules. He wants a system whereby if you effectively tick all the boxes you get the visa, but if you miss a box you don't. He says this would be more fair.

I say that this is not so. The present system of guidelines rather than rules allows flexibility. Not everyone can fit themselves into a rigid set of rules.

For example; a rigid set of rules would doubtless set a minimum income figure for maintenance, yet as Diplomatic Service Procedures - Entry clearance Volume 1 - General instructions Chapter 9 – The maintenance and accommodation requirements says in 9.3 - Maintenance: General requirements

There is no prescribed minimum figure for what represents sufficient maintenance. Appeals Tribunals and the higher courts have consistently upheld the principle that the appropriate level of maintenance without recourse to public funds varies widely from case to case.

A rigid set of rules, as desired by Atlastaname, would do away with this flexibility and far more people would be refused on this factor alone than are at present.

I could fill several pages with other examples where the current flexibility works to the benefit of applicants, but that would be tiresome for me and boring for everyone else.

It can, with some justification, be argued that the result of an application is subject to the whim and mood of the ECO. But bear in mind that most applications, certainly spouse, fiance, unmarried partners, proposed civil partners etc., are subject firstly to review by the ECM and then, if necessary, an independent appeal. Those applications that do not have a right of appeal must be reviewed within 24 hours by the ECM and may also be reviewed by an independent monitor, who reports directly to the Secretary of State. Any ECO who habitually refuse applications without a real reason would not be an ECO for very long.

Edited August 1, 2006 by GU22

[the scouser]

Certainly, the IND Public Enquiry Office in Liverpool operates a tick box system in respect of spousal indefinite leave applications, and this disadvantages a large number of applicants who wish/need to make in-person applications.

They insist that the documentation submitted spans the entire two-year probationary period, meaning that those who don’t have any acceptably sourced letters for the first three months can’t have their ILR application assessed on the day. Not only does this policy remove the individual official’s ability to assess the case on its merits and exercise their own judgment, but it flies in the face of the immigration rules which state only that the caseworker has to be satisfied that the criteria are met.

When someone arrives in the UK on a settlement visa, it can take some time to get properly established in the UK; quite often longer than the three months. Getting a National Insurance number, a bank account and a driving licence are fraught with bureaucracy and, even if sought immediately upon arrival, there is a delay between application and issue. Of course, people can be added to utility bills, but I don’t see why this should be done purely for the sake of ticking a box, and when the relationship is otherwise genuine. It is therefore common to have a situation where it is apparent to the caseworker that the applicant meets the requirements of the law, but the application must be rejected because their policy boxes are not ticked.

Notwithstanding this, the general Home Office policy of granting ILR upon production of a set number of letters from prescribed sources is fundamentally flawed. Such documents do not necessarily demonstrate that a couple is living together; all they show are that those letters were sent to the given address.

Scouse.

[Midlander]

GU22, thanks for the kind words,

I have checked on what say about rights to abode for spouses of British citizens and you are indeed correct.

My only real gripe with the Bangkok Embassy is the attitude of some of the ECO's. Most people do not apply for visa's on a regular basis, so by the very nature most Sv applications will be by first time applicants, if this causes frustration and annoyance to the ECO's then maybe they are not the right staff for the job. On the information handed out from UK visa's I don't think we would have stood a chance of getting a Sv first time. Its only thanks to forums like this where specific questions get answered and many peoples experiences are pooled together, that has made this possible.

I really don't have any answers, I can see the need for the strict control, but I too would like to see a more criteria based system, not so much to decide whether you get a visa but whether you are allowed to apply for one, and only then, go through the current system. I think that could reduce the stress for all parties concerned. Knowing you had not known each other long enough, for instance and being able to plan would benefit many. I believe that it can take years to prove a family relashionship to satisfy an ECO in places like India.

In the current situation on immigration, I think Asia is the least of the UK's problem, and I really can't see any changes in the current system being very high on the governments priority list.

Andy

[mrbojangles]

Well done Andy and Noi. It's a long drawn out frustrating process but you got there in the end

[atlastaname]

No once again i am misunderstood. I said if you are a genuine couple (thats why i put that bit in) then you qualify for the visa and so you will get it . UK immigration rules state that genuine couples can reside in the UK thus , as a genuine couple , you are entitled to stay here. I used the word "entitled" not to say everyone who is married will get their visa, but to say that genuine couples , like the OP, will. As a genuine couple you ARE entitled to stay here. Clearer now i hope ?

Seems like the OP agrees with me that a criteria based system would work. GU22 gives an example of minimum income requirements leading to wholesale refusals. Of course thats not true. A fair minimum income could be set, well whats wrong with that.? I don't know anyone who couldn't meet a fair minimum income level , otherwise how do they expect to live in the UK anyway? Similarly for accomodation. It appears that GU22 agrees with me on the whims of the ECO being undesirable. A tick box system takes away this unfairness and would lead to more approvals not less.

Scouse makes the point about difficulties with same day applications. He may be right but i don't understand why anyone HAS to make a same day application . Why can't they do it by post? Perhaps there are good reasons i just can't think of one . Anyone enlighten me ? He also makes the point about why should people have to put their names on all bills jointly in order to tick the box? Well after all the hassle of getting a visa i would have thought this is the most minor thing to ask couples to do, and again i can't see why anyone would object to this trivial thing.

Maybe i will open a thread on this to get other peoples views as we are going off topic here and apologies for that.

[mrbojangles]

Scouse makes the point about difficulties with same day applications. He may be right but i don't understand why anyone HAS to make a same day application . Why can't they do it by post? Perhaps there are good reasons i just can't think of one .

One reason could be, after 23 months into the SV, you apply for ILR but you want to go back to LOS for a holiday, or someone is ill etc. things have an habit of going missing in the post or taking too long. Just like going in person for a passport instead of a postal application.

He also makes the point about why should people have to put their names on all bills jointly in order to tick the box? Well after all the hassle of getting a visa i would have thought this is the most minor thing to ask couples to do, and again i can't see why anyone would object to this trivial thing.

I think the point Scouse was making was, just because you have joint names on utility bills etc. it does'nt mean that you are neccessarily in a "genuine relationship" and yet it is used as a "tick in the box"

[GU22]

GU22 gives an example of minimum income requirements leading to wholesale refusals. Of course thats not true. A fair minimum income could be set, well whats wrong with that.? I don't know anyone who couldn't meet a fair minimum income level , otherwise how do they expect to live in the UK anyway?

Quite often, on this and similar forums, people have posted that they wish to return to the UK with their partner but will not have a job or income to go back to. At present people in this position can rely on support from friends or family, and this is enough to satisfy the requirements. If there were a minimum income requirement then people in this situation would have to separate while the UK partner returned to the UK to seek employment.

Also, where would you set the limit? Wages and the cost of living vary widely throughout the UK. Set the limit too high and people from areas with lower average wages would struggle to meet it. Set it too low and people from areas with a high cost of living may well be able to meet the income requirement, but in reality not have sufficient income to cover their living costs.

As previously quoted

There is no prescribed minimum figure for what represents sufficient maintenance. Appeals Tribunals and the higher courts have consistently upheld the principle that the appropriate level of maintenance without recourse to public funds varies widely from case to case.

Atlastaname, yo may very well think that this doesn't matter, that, as you put it " I don't know anyone who couldn't meet a fair minimum income level , otherwise how do they expect to live in the UK anyway?" So, lets look at a situation more relevant to you.

Currently, each application is judged on it's merits. Even if an applicant has previously been in breach of the Immigration Rules, they may still get another visa if they show that they are genuine. It is likely that with a rigid system anyone who had previously broken the immigration rules in some way would be automatically refused. If that were the case, your boyfriend wouldn't now be in the UK, would he?!

[Mossfinn]

I believe there are merits to either system, the tick box or the present type based on merit and individual judgement with an appeal procedure, if that is the correct way of calling the present system?, although at present I favour the status quo.

I didn't know about the info you posted GU22, I know, don't say hardly surprising!, but I agree with atlastaname that he should post a new topic based on discussing the merits of both systems as this has the potential of going serously off topic here and unfair to the OP.

Then there could be, if treated properly, a proper discussion on the pros and cons of either system.

Go for it atlastaname, I say.

Moss

As an aside atlastaname, I have been called many things in my time, most of them unpleasant, but never Timid!