Russian troops enter Ukraine - Nato

[konying]

I never said there is no russian propaganda, nato does not have any pictures as already admitted by the commander

None that's been made public, anyway. If they can read a license place from a satellite, they for sure know what's going on in Ukraine.

Great, so why not show it?

[konying]

The current US administration does not appear to be inclined to get heavily involved in the Ukrainian situation. There has been rhetoric, but that's about it. As a member of Nato, any action will be taken cooperatively. If Europe doesn't want action, then it won't happen. This problem is on Europe's doorstep. The US has little to gain or lose in the situation. Europe has a lot at stake.

Russia's economy is unraveling and foreign adventures or misadventures are always a convenient distraction from problems at home. Ukraine is a pretty easy target and a reasonably sure bet. The EU really doesn't want Ukraine. But the EU doesn't want Russia on it's doorstep.

If everyone plays their cards right it could end without too many losers. Ukraine will lose either way, though.

Why would EU be worried about having Russia at its doorstep ?

EU had Russia on its door step for past 500 years if not longer and in the past 20 years has done very good trade with Russia.

Well, I am not sure why they should be worried, but since NATO consists of 25 countries from Europe and they issued the statement, they must be a little worried.

Hungary is not worried but being bullied by NATO to worry, any chance others are in the same boat? being bullied into something they do not want to be involved in

The bullying of Hungary – the country that dared to disobey the US and EU

http://rt.com/op-edge/203151-hungary-independent-politics-west/

[lovetotravel]

I never said there is no russian propaganda, nato does not have any pictures as already admitted by the commander

None that's been made public, anyway. If they can read a license place from a satellite, they for sure know what's going on in Ukraine.

Great, so why not show it?

Agreed. I would be great to see more. They've already published quite a few photos showing troop buildups, impacts from bombs inside Ukraine,etc. But many say it's all propaganda.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/satellite-images-show-russia-firing-ukraine-u-s-government-n166166

[Gonki]

Troll news! There are folks who ascribe to that if a vehicle with a Russian license plate enters Ukraine - it's an invasion. Why? Cuz same truck painted olive green is an army. There would be a difference in license plate terms but who cares about their appearance? Traffic police?

NATO wants a chunk of this WAR!

[Publicus]

The current US administration does not appear to be inclined to get heavily involved in the Ukrainian situation. There has been rhetoric, but that's about it. As a member of Nato, any action will be taken cooperatively. If Europe doesn't want action, then it won't happen. This problem is on Europe's doorstep. The US has little to gain or lose in the situation. Europe has a lot at stake.

Russia's economy is unraveling and foreign adventures or misadventures are always a convenient distraction from problems at home. Ukraine is a pretty easy target and a reasonably sure bet. The EU really doesn't want Ukraine. But the EU doesn't want Russia on it's doorstep.

If everyone plays their cards right it could end without too many losers. Ukraine will lose either way, though.

Why would EU be worried about having Russia at its doorstep ?

EU had Russia on its door step for past 500 years if not longer and in the past 20 years has done very good trade with Russia.

Well, I am not sure why they should be worried, but since NATO consists of 25 countries from Europe and they issued the statement, they must be a little worried.

Hungary is not worried but being bullied by NATO to worry, any chance others are in the same boat? being bullied into something they do not want to be involved in

The bullying of Hungary – the country that dared to disobey the US and EU

http://rt.com/op-edge/203151-hungary-independent-politics-west/

What would make anyone think or believe Hungary got "bullied into something they do not want to be involved in"? Hungary is in fact acting in its own self-interest and those sitting on Putin's lap make up stories when they say otherwise. People do have valid motives, rationales, purposes. Putin's is easy to understand becuase it includes his having a tsar complex.

If there's any country involved in something it doesn't want to be involved in it's Ukraine.

[konying]

I never said there is no russian propaganda, nato does not have any pictures as already admitted by the commander

None that's been made public, anyway. If they can read a license place from a satellite, they for sure know what's going on in Ukraine.

Great, so why not show it?

Agreed. I would be great to see more. They've already published quite a few photos showing troop buildups, impacts from bombs inside Ukraine,etc. But many say it's all propaganda.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/satellite-images-show-russia-firing-ukraine-u-s-government-n166166

No, they have shown pics of something based somewhere with no evidence of anything. Once again, commander already admitted they do not know.

Just like a video posted by another poster claiming Russia in Ukraine, ONLY civilian vehicles on the road all have Russian number plates, which using little logic would suggest video is filmed in Russia on Russian land and hence very little would suggest they were in Ukraine or were going to Ukraine.

Just as Sweden spent few million euro's looking for Russian sub which they were sure was in their waters, only nowhere to be found.

[konying]

What would make anyone think or believe Hungary got "bullied into something they do not want to be involved in"? Hungary is in fact acting in its own self-interest and those sitting on Putin's lap make up stories when they say otherwise. People do have valid motives, rationales, purposes. Putin's is easy to understand becuase it includes his having a tsar complex.

If there's any country involved in something it doesn't want to be involved in it's Ukraine.

Correct me if i am wrong, but was it not illegitimate Ukrainian government who decided to outlaw Russian language? and was it , nor is it Ukrainian military who is shelling Donetsk and the rest? I do not see or hear rebels shelling Kiev, yet with all the supposedly Russian support they easily could

PS. try reading the article, which may not sit well with your patriotism, and no doubt source does not even compare to BBC or alike, but you can always google it and find many other sources.

[lovetotravel]

I love this sequence of events:

Putin Denies Sending Russian Troops to Crimea

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Tuesday that his country has not deployed any troops in Crimea recently and has no plans to annex the peninsula.

Putin Finally Admits to Sending Troops to Crimea

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Thursday that Russian forces had been deployed to Crimea last month to support local defense teams, the first time he has admitted such involvement by Russia.

Putin had repeatedly denied sending any forces to Crimea ahead of the March referendum there that eventually led to the region's annexation by Russia. Putin said the troops were deployed to protect Russian-speaking citizens in Crimea.

Hard to believe a word this guy says.

[konying]

I love this sequence of events:

Putin Denies Sending Russian Troops to Crimea

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Tuesday that his country has not deployed any troops in Crimea recently and has no plans to annex the peninsula.

Putin Finally Admits to Sending Troops to Crimea

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Thursday that Russian forces had been deployed to Crimea last month to support local defense teams, the first time he has admitted such involvement by Russia.

Putin had repeatedly denied sending any forces to Crimea ahead of the March referendum there that eventually led to the region's annexation by Russia. Putin said the troops were deployed to protect Russian-speaking citizens in Crimea.

Hard to believe a word this guy says.

Crimea always had Russian army base, not sure what point you trying to make ?

[Pakboong]

Who can imagine why the Russians would drive 32 tanks and up to 100 vehicles across the border into Ukraine in plain sight all the while denying any involvement in Ukraine? This is so lame, I can't imagine anyone falling for it. . Maybe the Russians simply thought nobody would notice and with all the camera's getting these pictures, it is just hard to imagine anyone being that gullible.

Russia has been openly building up their defenses on their side of the border.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Pakboong

[Publicus]

What would make anyone think or believe Hungary got "bullied into something they do not want to be involved in"? Hungary is in fact acting in its own self-interest and those sitting on Putin's lap make up stories when they say otherwise. People do have valid motives, rationales, purposes. Putin's is easy to understand becuase it includes his having a tsar complex.

If there's any country involved in something it doesn't want to be involved in it's Ukraine.

Correct me if i am wrong, but was it not illegitimate Ukrainian government who decided to outlaw Russian language? and was it , nor is it Ukrainian military who is shelling Donetsk and the rest? I do not see or hear rebels shelling Kiev, yet with all the supposedly Russian support they easily could

PS. try reading the article, which may not sit well with your patriotism, and no doubt source does not even compare to BBC or alike, but you can always google it and find many other sources.

The government of Ukraine is completely legit as it continues to be recognized at the UN, EU, Nato etc etc etc and people arguing against the fact need to smell the coffee...use the word "coup" and I'll demand the names of generals which is something none on your side have ever been able to provide.

Nothing the Ukraine has done that makes Moscow smart with pain rises to the level of a justifiable military intervention on its own soil organized, funded, executed from Moscow. That is a very high bar for Moscow to clear which is why Putin keeps crashing into it up there as they both thump down to the ground.

Ukrainian forces might just be shelling enemy positions in Donetsk because Donetsk is held by the aggressor enemy forces duh.

Your suggestion I read an article might be welcome but only if you agree to read an article i choose for you to read, then you and I can discuss each article by PM or as each piece might apply to a thread in this forum or whatever. You'd have to prepare yourself to get sliced chopped and diced so you decide and lemme know....

[F430murci]

Why all of selfish, insecure need something to thump my chest anout types argue everything from whether its happening to who is benefitting from this . . .

My Russian wife immediately teared up and said this is not good and will say no more now because it is upsetting When it looked like it was over, she thanked God about 4 or 5 times and got on phone with family and friends. Normal, intelligent Russians don't want this.

All of our Ukraine friends who stay in constant contact with the families over there are absolutely terrified and don't want this.

No one, and I mean no one, but the pathetic I have nothing better in my life than some false, misplaced Russian pride or a deep hatred the for the West seem jazzed up about this and use this as a Russia v. West, look who is better or worse focus. Some pathetic out of touch comments above.

This is an extremely sad situation for a lot of good people. Normal, intelligent Russians and Ukrainians saw nothing about US when discussing this.

That US v Russia chest thumping focus or whether and what is really happening seems to be feed by either: (1). Russiatn controled media reports; or (2). Idiots more concerned about their own personal dysfunctions and prejudices than the sufferings of others.

And them to deny what is happening to good people in Ukraine based on a hate of the West mentality . . . Lets just say bottom of the barrel types.

Edited November 13, 2014 by F430murci

[craigt3365]

A post has been removed from view and a member warned for not heeding Scott's public notice above.

Please stay on topic and abide by forum rules.

[zydeco]

Nato promised to the Russians back in the '90's that it wouldn't push eastwards after the dissolution of the Warsaw pact.

All promises have been broken plus a 'missile shield' aimed at Russia.

Russia is angry and feels betrayed.

...so they are clawing back what has historically been Russian lands and to hell with the West.

A major shift is underway.

Russia+China as the leaders and a host of BRIC nations plus dozens of other discontents are breaking free of US hegemony.

...and talking of hegemony , the same goes for 'dollar hegemony'.

Interesting times ahead.

Will America accept its fate, like the UK and France did in the post ww2 era, or push for war?

All in the name of democracy and gay rights of course...

Whatever the "fate" of the US, it's the fate of Russia that this invasion has sealed. Russia's economy is almost all energy reliant, like Brazil, like Iran. Your BRICS are made of straw. And the straw is an oil glut that is making those BRICS crumble. (China of course crumbling because of different issues, which this thread doesn't allow us to go into.)

[lovetotravel]

Nato promised to the Russians back in the '90's that it wouldn't push eastwards after the dissolution of the Warsaw pact.

All promises have been broken plus a 'missile shield' aimed at Russia.

Russia is angry and feels betrayed.

...so they are clawing back what has historically been Russian lands and to hell with the West.

A major shift is underway.

Russia+China as the leaders and a host of BRIC nations plus dozens of other discontents are breaking free of US hegemony.

...and talking of hegemony , the same goes for 'dollar hegemony'.

Interesting times ahead.

Will America accept its fate, like the UK and France did in the post ww2 era, or push for war?

All in the name of democracy and gay rights of course...

You mean this agreement?

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/15/world/russia-agrees-to-nato-plan-pushed-by-clinton-to-admit-nations-from-eastern-bloc.html

Russia reluctantly agreed today to the Clinton Administration's push to expand the NATO military alliance to include Moscow's former satellites in Central Europe.

The accord between NATO and Russia sets the terms under which the alliance is expected to admit Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary and perhaps other Central and Eastern European nations left behind the Iron Curtain after the 1945 Yalta Pact.

The agreement, which came after months of pointed debate and private wrangling, sought to balance seemingly incompatible goals: protecting the rights of the alliance's prospective new members while preserving the West's cooperative relationship with the new, democratic Russia.

The accord was announced here today by NATO's Secretary General, Javier Solana, and Foreign Minister Yevgeny Primakov of Russia and is to be be signed in Paris on May 27.

[F430murci]

Ukraines economy

Worse to come

. . .

Ukraines economic problems have been long in the making. Two decades of stalled reforms and rapacious leadership have left the average Ukrainian about 20% poorer than she was when the Soviet Union collapsed. Ill-planned privatisations in the 1990s spawned an oligarchic class that sucked up most of the countrys wealth for itself. Corruption is a way of life. University students bribe their professors to get a good grade; taxmen reckon the majority of businesses pay their workers at least partly in cash to evade tax. Transparency International, an advocacy group, puts Ukraine 144th out of 177 countries in a global ranking of public perceptions of corruption.

. . .

A year ago Russia agreed to lend Ukraine 3 billion ($4.1 billion) via an international bond. The money came with an important condition: if Ukraines debt-to-GDP ratio exceeds 60%, Russia can demand early repayment, which might, in turn, trigger an automatic default on Ukraines other international bonds. Official figures due in March are expected to show the governments debt well above the 60% threshold, enabling Russia to precipitate a default.

. . .

Ukraine will only prosper when private investors venture back in. That will require big investments in infrastructure, especially in the war-torn east of the country. The IMF cannot provide that; it deals in short-term financing. Yet other potential benefactors, including America and the EU, have been dragging their feet.

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21632633-swooning-economy-desperate-need-investment-worse-come

[F430murci]

Aljazeera Article

--------

Russia 'fuelling' war in Ukraine

. . .

Al Jazeera's Rory Challands, reporting from Moscow, said it was not a good time for military action on either side.

"It is not good timing for a military offensive on either side, with winter fast approaching. This influx of military hardware is more intended to keep the status quo and stop the rebels being defeated.

http://m.aljazeera.com/story/2014111361842492388

Edited November 14, 2014 by F430murci

[F430murci]

The Ukrainian government said it was preparing for an all-out war in the restive east of the country, as Nato accused Russia of funnelling large amounts of military equipment, including tanks and troops, into the region.

Ukrainian defence minister Stepan Poltorak told a cabinet meeting that the military was redeploying forces in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

"We are aware of an increase in terrorist and Russian forces," Poltorak was quoted as saying by Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on 12 November.

"We have the situation under control and we're ready to react... We are preparing for combat".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-prepares-all-out-war-russian-tanks-troops-enter-donetsk-1474451

[F430murci]

Aljazeera reporting:

Fears rise amid Ukraine truce breaches

Lysenko said shelling in residential areas of the separatist-held Luhansk and Donetsk regions had intensified and that there had been no let-up in the flow of equipment to rebels from Russia.

http://m.aljazeera.com/story/20141113124433898954

[MobileContent]

OSCE has reported the sighting of troops in Ukraine. Not just Nato. Do some research on OSCE.

Of course Russia won't admit this. Why should they?

Russian troops have been reported in Ukraine many times, but some still want to believe this is not true. What can you do? American propaganda? What about Russian propaganda? It cuts both ways, right?

I am waiting for some confirmed photos. So far I have nothing seen. NATO, OSCE can't be trusted at all.

[lovetotravel]

OSCE has reported the sighting of troops in Ukraine. Not just Nato. Do some research on OSCE.

Of course Russia won't admit this. Why should they?

Russian troops have been reported in Ukraine many times, but some still want to believe this is not true. What can you do? American propaganda? What about Russian propaganda? It cuts both ways, right?

I am waiting for some confirmed photos. So far I have nothing seen. NATO, OSCE can't be trusted at all.

Can't be trusted by whom? Seems many do trust these organizations.

Here's just one of the OSCE's report from their people on the ground in Ukraine:

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/126483

At 13:55hrs, on the eastern outskirts of Makeevka (25km north-east of Donetsk), within territory under control of the “Donetsk People’s Republic” (“DPR”), the SMM observed a convoy of more than 40 trucks and tankers moving west on highway H-21.

Of these 19 were large trucks – Kamaz type, covered, and without markings or number plates – each towing a 122mm howitzer and containing personnel in dark green uniforms without insignia. Fifteen were Kraz troop carriers. The SMM was on the move and could therefore not ascertain the contents of these. The remaining six were small fuel tankers, fitted with cranes. The SMM observed an unmarked BTR armoured personnel carrier leading the convoy, with a tarpaulin over the gun.

At 15:20hrs, at the intersection of Leninskyi Street and Kuprin Street (7km south-west of Donetsk city centre) the SMM observed a convoy of nine tanks – four T72 and five T64 – moving west, also unmarked.

Too many sources that prove Russian troops are in Ukraine. And precedent has been set by Putin for not telling the truth (Crimea annexation).

[lovetotravel]

Interesting graphic showing the buildup on European air forces near Ukraine:

http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/world/russia-west/slider/?hpt=hp_c1

Seems to be Russia vs. the rest of the world.

[MJP]

Interesting graphic showing the buildup on European air forces near Ukraine:

http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/world/russia-west/slider/?hpt=hp_c1

Seems to be Russia vs. the rest of the world.

Eighteen planes? Not really a build up.

[lovetotravel]

Not major, but still an increase of 350%. Right?

I would think the budget to support these planes would be pretty big. Wonder how long it will last.

[MJP]

Not major, but still an increase of 350%. Right?

I would think the budget to support these planes would be pretty big. Wonder how long it will last.

Perhaps that's what the £1.7bn EU bill was for?

This is getting a bit worrying.

Russian and European taxpayers need to band together to bring this nonsense to a halt. Much better things to spend money on.

[zydeco]

Not major, but still an increase of 350%. Right?

I would think the budget to support these planes would be pretty big. Wonder how long it will last.

Look at the effect on the other side. For NATO this is a relatively small force. But now the Russians are caught in the middle of all this force projection and demos of new weapons prototypes. THAT is going to cost them a lot. And it's going to do it while their currency is crashing and their oil and gas revenues dwindling. For the Russians, it's back to the 1980s. Breadlines may be next.

[lovetotravel]

Not major, but still an increase of 350%. Right?

I would think the budget to support these planes would be pretty big. Wonder how long it will last.

Look at the effect on the other side. For NATO this is a relatively small force. But now the Russians are caught in the middle of all this force projection and demos of new weapons prototypes. THAT is going to cost them a lot. And it's going to do it while their currency is crashing and their oil and gas revenues dwindling. For the Russians, it's back to the 1980s. Breadlines may be next.

I just watched a video on CNN. They are saying the Russians have some 8-9,000 troops on the border with Ukraine. That's not cheap. The support costs have to be massive. Add to that what they've got inside Ukraine and the costs spiral higher.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2014/11/13/tsr-dnt-sciutto-russia-ukraine-fresh-fighting.cnn-ap&hpt=hp_t3&from_homepage=yes&video_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F