Obama 'close to acting alone on immigration'

[Publicus]

I see that with the exception of some posts that address the issue presented in the thread, the extreme right wing marginals are out in full ranting mode.

When you mentioned "full ranting mode," I couldn't help think about the countless nonsensical postings you made regarding the gang member that was shot by the police. Since this news article is in regard to Obama's idiotic idea to grant amnesty to illegals flowing across America's southern border, what is your opinion of this idea? Please refrain from posting any Mother Jones, MSNBC, or other radical news regarding this issue. It would be much more interesting if you were to share your thoughts on this subject.

The prez is and always has been pursuing comprehensive immigration reform which the national survey polling indicates is very clearly supported by the large majority of the Republicans, Independents, Democrats. I have provided the Gallop survey in this respect, which is why the self-documenting fringe political marginals don't like citations from the MSM or from mainstream American society.

Prez Obama is pursuing comprehensive immigration reform, not an amnesty as the fringe political marginals would have the world believe.

Immigration is and always has been at the core of American socio-economic vitality and dynamism. Immigrants tend strongly towards mainstream society and politics. Immigrants are not generally or predictably fringe political types on either end of the spectrum, which is also a major reason the fringe ranters and ragers have turned against immigration.

Besides, Obama is for it so the fringe political marginals on the far right are against it -- and him especially.

The demographics of the United States are always changing and the fringe political ranters don't like the changes occurring over the past couple of generations because it both puts and leaves them out there on the socio-cultural and political margin of the new mainstream.

Read and weep.

[CMNightRider]

I see that with the exception of some posts that address the issue presented in the thread, the extreme right wing marginals are out in full ranting mode.

When you mentioned "full ranting mode," I couldn't help think about the countless nonsensical postings you made regarding the gang member that was shot by the police. Since this news article is in regard to Obama's idiotic idea to grant amnesty to illegals flowing across America's southern border, what is your opinion of this idea? Please refrain from posting any Mother Jones, MSNBC, or other radical news regarding this issue. It would be much more interesting if you were to share your thoughts on this subject.

The prez is and always has been pursuing comprehensive immigration reform which the national survey polling indicates is very clearly supported by the large majority of the Republicans, Independents, Democrats. I have provided the Gallop survey in this respect, which is why the self-documenting fringe political marginals don't like citations from the MSM or from mainstream American society.

Prez Obama is pursuing comprehensive immigration reform, not an amnesty as the fringe political marginals would have the world believe.

Immigration is and always has been at the core of American socio-economic vitality and dynamism. Immigrants tend strongly towards mainstream society and politics. Immigrants are not generally or predictably fringe political types on either end of the spectrum, which is also a major reason the fringe ranters and ragers have turned against immigration.

Besides, Obama is for it so the fringe political marginals on the far right are against it -- and him especially.

The demographics of the United States are always changing and the fringe political ranters don't like the changes occurring over the past couple of generations because it both puts and leaves them out there on the socio-cultural and political margin of the new mainstream.

Read and weep.

I didn't ask you what Obama wants or thinks. I merely asked your opinion of granting amnesty to several million, mostly uneducated people who have crossed America's southern border illegally. Why would you think I would "weep" about any of your postings?

[Publicus]

I see that with the exception of some posts that address the issue presented in the thread, the extreme right wing marginals are out in full ranting mode.

When you mentioned "full ranting mode," I couldn't help think about the countless nonsensical postings you made regarding the gang member that was shot by the police. Since this news article is in regard to Obama's idiotic idea to grant amnesty to illegals flowing across America's southern border, what is your opinion of this idea? Please refrain from posting any Mother Jones, MSNBC, or other radical news regarding this issue. It would be much more interesting if you were to share your thoughts on this subject.

The prez is and always has been pursuing comprehensive immigration reform which the national survey polling indicates is very clearly supported by the large majority of the Republicans, Independents, Democrats. I have provided the Gallop survey in this respect, which is why the self-documenting fringe political marginals don't like citations from the MSM or from mainstream American society.

Prez Obama is pursuing comprehensive immigration reform, not an amnesty as the fringe political marginals would have the world believe.

Immigration is and always has been at the core of American socio-economic vitality and dynamism. Immigrants tend strongly towards mainstream society and politics. Immigrants are not generally or predictably fringe political types on either end of the spectrum, which is also a major reason the fringe ranters and ragers have turned against immigration.

Besides, Obama is for it so the fringe political marginals on the far right are against it -- and him especially.

The demographics of the United States are always changing and the fringe political ranters don't like the changes occurring over the past couple of generations because it both puts and leaves them out there on the socio-cultural and political margin of the new mainstream.

Read and weep.

I didn't ask you what Obama wants or thinks. I merely asked your opinion of granting amnesty to several million, mostly uneducated people who have crossed America's southern border illegally. Why would you think I would "weep" about any of your postings?

Then you should be more careful of what you ask for

[CMNightRider]

I didn't ask you what Obama wants or thinks. I merely asked your opinion of granting amnesty to several million, mostly uneducated people who have crossed America's southern border illegally. Why would you think I would "weep" about any of your postings?

Then you should be more careful of what you ask for

Does this mean you have no thoughts of your own regarding granting amnesty to several million people who entered America illegally?

[chuckd]

Horses "gallop".

Polls are taken by "Gallup".

[Publicus]

I didn't ask you what Obama wants or thinks. I merely asked your opinion of granting amnesty to several million, mostly uneducated people who have crossed America's southern border illegally. Why would you think I would "weep" about any of your postings?

Then you should be more careful of what you ask for

Does this mean you have no thoughts of your own regarding granting amnesty to several million people who entered America illegally?

You have my views stated in my post -- I support comprehensive immigration reform and I support immigration in general for the reasons I articulated. So whatever you're on about, get off of it.

Most specifically, I support the comprehensive immigration reform proposals 75% of other Americans support and which Congress has failed to enact even after two years of negotiations over comprehensive immigration reform itself, exclusive of other legislative items or issues.

There will be no amnesty.

Prez Obama will not issue any amnesty.

To say the comprehensive immigration reform 75% of Americans support from across the political spectrum is an amnesty is a fiction. It is false. It is bogus. It is a trumped up concocted claim. The comprehensive immigration reform proposal that's been kicked about the past two years does not include an amnesty.

Prez Obama will not try to do the job of the Congress. Prez Obama will do what he can as CEO of the Executive Branch under the authority of the Constitution and the laws of the land. He will do comprehensive immigration reform. There is no single issue involved or included.

My thoughts and views are exactly the opposite of yours, but you knew that already, and you knew it very well besides.

[NeverSure]

CMNightrider:

It seems liberals are having problems distinguishing between the two words.

On another subject, Oregon, an Obama supporting state, defeated a resolution to provide driver's license to illegal immigrants by a large majority in the last election.

Another nail in the coffin.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oregon voters reject licenses for illegals; immigration a losing issue for Dems in 2014 elections

Exclusive Washington Times Daily Briefing

Washington Times

By Stephen Dinan - The Washington Times - Wednesday, November 5, 2014

Immigration was a losing issue in the 2014 election, with Republicans who announced their opposition to President Obama’s legalization plans earning victories across the country and voters in Oregon swatting down a referendum that would have granted driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants.

Republicans said the results should serve as a warning to President Obama, who has said he plans to take unilateral action to grant legal status to illegal immigrants some time this year.

Hispanic leaders had been counting on Oregon voters to embrace driver’s licenses for illegal immigrants, arguing it would be a signal that states were stepping in to act on immigration reform where the federal government wouldn’t.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/5/immigration-losing-issue-democrats-2014-midterm-el/#ixzz3J1mokfwE

I am an Oregon resident and Oregonians are adamant about this.

The last time I went to DMV for my 4 year driver's license renewal, I had to show up in person with a certified copy of my birth certificate to prove I was a citizen. I had to do that just that one time because now they have a copy on file.

We also have to maintain proof of insurance with DMV at all times.

I love this law. A number of years ago I was stopped at a red light and an illegal with no license or insurance rear-ended me hard. I wouldn't dare drive around with no license and no insurance but these people do.

Obviously the accident collision was 100% his fault but my insurance company had to fix my car, and I had to pay the deductible.

These people obviously have no respect for borders or for laws of driving and immigration. They are criminals the moment they cross the borders.

We have millions and millions of such criminals in the US and US citizens don't want them legalized by a very wide margin.

BTW the illegal driver who hit me went to jail. I'm not so sure that would happen in every state now.

[bkkcanuck8]

There will be no amnesty.

Prez Obama will not issue any amnesty.

So what you're saying that as part of immigration reform they are going to deport all those that entered the country illegally or worked illegally while they were in the US? If not anything other than that is a form of amnesty.... Politicians often like to reword things when certain words become or are explosive if they are used, it is what they call controlling the message.... but it does not change the truth.

Amnesty in the legal sense means "an act of forgiveness for past offenses, especially to a class of persons as a whole".

So anything that allows whole classes of people to stay in the US and forgive them for past offenses.... is amnesty.... even if you don't like the word because if you use it the general public will react.

[Publicus]

There will be no amnesty.

Prez Obama will not issue any amnesty.

So what you're saying that as part of immigration reform they are going to deport all those that entered the country illegally or worked illegally while they were in the US? If not anything other than that is a form of amnesty.... Politicians often like to reword things when certain words become or are explosive if they are used, it is what they call controlling the message.... but it does not change the truth.

Amnesty in the legal sense means "an act of forgiveness for past offenses, especially to a class of persons as a whole".

So anything that allows whole classes of people to stay in the US and forgive them for past offenses.... is amnesty.... even if you don't like the word because if you use it the general public will react.

So what you're saying that as part of immigration reform they are going to

I said no such thing.

That is what you said in your speechmaking in your post.

I did not say what you said I said.

You said everything in your post that you yourself wrote and said.

You need to stay in your lane so there will be no detours, tie ups, traffic jams.

[Publicus]

Horses "gallop".

Polls are taken by "Gallup".

Yes officer.

My hands are up.

(I've typed in the horse survey polling for years and years thx )

[Publicus]

I think you are right as sinister as it sounds. Its all about votes. There is no other logical explanation of why anyone would want to flood a country with illegal, uneducated aliens, while educated people with real work skills stand in line to enter the U.S. legally.

Same affliction that infected the Labour Party in the UK.

For more than 25 years now US immigration policies which are set by the Congress and implemented by consent of the Executive Branch have favored immigrants from Latin America, which is in the neighborhood of the United States.

From the start of this period European immigrant quotas have been significantly reduced and remain so.

Quotas of immigrants from East Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia have also been increased.

These are the folk who are directly affected by the discussions about US immigration policies, laws, rules and regulations, reforms.

Fewer Europeans, more latinos, more of East Asians and South Asians. That is what this discussion is about.

[bkkcanuck8]

I think you are right as sinister as it sounds. Its all about votes. There is no other logical explanation of why anyone would want to flood a country with illegal, uneducated aliens, while educated people with real work skills stand in line to enter the U.S. legally.

Same affliction that infected the Labour Party in the UK.

For more than 25 years now US immigration policies which are set by the Congress and implemented by consent of the Executive Branch have favored immigrants from Latin America, which is in the neighborhood of the United States.

From the start of this period European immigrant quotas have been significantly reduced and remain so.

Quotas of immigrants from East Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia have also been increased.

These are the folk who are directly affected by the discussions about US immigration policies, laws, rules and regulations, reforms.

Fewer Europeans, more latinos, more of East Asians and South Asians. That is what this discussion is about.

So now your saying that anyone that is against amnesty or giving illegal immigrants green cards are racist? Unfortunately it has become a common refrain by the left in the US to try and quash discussions in issues they would prefer there were none.

I could not care a less about who the US allows in the country - but I do realize the US system is broken when you encourage people to run across the border, jump the queue - and restrict the entry of people that are trying to legitimately immigrate by the rules. Personally, I think the US should move to a system more like Australia or Canada which uses a points system where you get points for education, language skills, skills that are in demand, family, etc. The passing bar is then set based on supply / demand.

For fairness sake, before you allow illegal immigrants to stay -- you should clear the entire backlog of applicants and allow them all in with the only test being - are you a security risk....

I don't plan on returning to the United States for work or other (so I don't have a vested interest)... I enjoyed my time working there (Chicago, Denver, San Diego) -- but I prefer asia at this point in time.

I really hope you don't complain when someone jumps in front of you at the cash register, the movie theatre, or just a parking space.... because it would be really hypocritical of you since that is what you are advocating to do to others.

Edited November 15, 2014 by bkkcanuck8

[Publicus]

I think you are right as sinister as it sounds. Its all about votes. There is no other logical explanation of why anyone would want to flood a country with illegal, uneducated aliens, while educated people with real work skills stand in line to enter the U.S. legally.

Same affliction that infected the Labour Party in the UK.

For more than 25 years now US immigration policies which are set by the Congress and implemented by consent of the Executive Branch have favored immigrants from Latin America, which is in the neighborhood of the United States.

From the start of this period European immigrant quotas have been significantly reduced and remain so.

Quotas of immigrants from East Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia have also been increased.

These are the folk who are directly affected by the discussions about US immigration policies, laws, rules and regulations, reforms.

Fewer Europeans, more latinos, more of East Asians and South Asians. That is what this discussion is about.

So now your saying that anyone that is against amnesty or giving illegal immigrants green cards are racist? Unfortunately it has become a common refrain by the left in the US to try and quash discussions in issues they would prefer there were none.

I could not care a less about who the US allows in the country - but I do realize the US system is broken when you encourage people to run across the border, jump the queue - and restrict the entry of people that are trying to legitimately immigrate by the rules. Personally, I think the US should move to a system more like Australia or Canada which uses a points system where you get points for education, language skills, skills that are in demand, family, etc. The passing bar is then set based on supply / demand.

For fairness sake, before you allow illegal immigrants to stay -- you should clear the entire backlog of applicants and allow them all in with the only test being - are you a security risk....

I don't plan on returning to the United States for work or other (so I don't have a vested interest)... I enjoyed my time working there (Chicago, Denver, San Diego) -- but I prefer asia at this point in time.

I really hope you don't complain when someone jumps in front of you at the cash register, the movie theatre, or just a parking space.... because it would be really hypocritical of you since that is what you are advocating to do to others.

So now your saying that

No, I never said that or anything like that

You said it, not I

It's your post, meaning you said it because you wrote it from the opening line to the closing line.

I didn't say anything in your post that you yourself wrote.

Have a nice day....

[bkkcanuck8]

Fewer Europeans, more latinos, more of East Asians and South Asians. That is what this discussion is about.

To me, it seems like you are implying that because we are talking about "fewer europeans" and "more latinos", "east asians and south asians" -- that is why we are having this "discussion" about immigration. The quote above to me seems pretty plain.

[CMNightRider]

I didn't ask you what Obama wants or thinks. I merely asked your opinion of granting amnesty to several million, mostly uneducated people who have crossed America's southern border illegally. Why would you think I would "weep" about any of your postings?

Then you should be more careful of what you ask for

Does this mean you have no thoughts of your own regarding granting amnesty to several million people who entered America illegally?

You have my views stated in my post -- I support comprehensive immigration reform and I support immigration in general for the reasons I articulated. So whatever you're on about, get off of it.

Most specifically, I support the comprehensive immigration reform proposals 75% of other Americans support and which Congress has failed to enact even after two years of negotiations over comprehensive immigration reform itself, exclusive of other legislative items or issues.

There will be no amnesty.

Prez Obama will not issue any amnesty.

To say the comprehensive immigration reform 75% of Americans support from across the political spectrum is an amnesty is a fiction. It is false. It is bogus. It is a trumped up concocted claim. The comprehensive immigration reform proposal that's been kicked about the past two years does not include an amnesty.

Prez Obama will not try to do the job of the Congress. Prez Obama will do what he can as CEO of the Executive Branch under the authority of the Constitution and the laws of the land. He will do comprehensive immigration reform. There is no single issue involved or included.

My thoughts and views are exactly the opposite of yours, but you knew that already, and you knew it very well besides.

So you support a "comprehensive immigration reform." Well that sounds good until you start talking about the millions of illegals that are going to be given amnesty. Why would anyone want to reward people who entered this country illegally? The "comprehensive immigration reform" is nothing more than smoke and mirrors to give illegals a right to bypass others who are trying to enter America legally. Obama has consistently lied to the American people, and is the most deceitful and dishonest person to ever occupy the White House. Actually, that is some of his better traits.

This reminds of me of Obamacare. Remember when Obama keep saying to the American people "If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan" under his health care overhaul. Now Obama calls his sinister plan to give amnesty to several million illegals the "Comprehensive Immigration Reform." OMG!!

[JDGRUEN]

The Trojan Horse of the incessant bulldozing of the idea of Comprehensive Immigration Reform - a.k.a. Amnesty is a term called "Chain Migration". Chain Migration is from an old Federal Court ruling that has the weight of law... Chain Migration allows newly anointed American citizens to sponsor - over many many years ALL of their blood relatives back in their home country and become American citizens... I think readers are already getting the picture here... But it gets worse...

The LIE that there is only about 7-8-9 Million Illegal Aliens in America -- is ridiculous. Back in 2005-2006 when this current fight over immigration began proponents claimed 6 million Illegal Aliens. That claimed number was only 1/2 or less of the number of illegal aliens in America at that time. The number now is closer to 20 million illegal aliens. The picture gets a lot clearer ...

If over several years 20 million illegal aliens gain U.S. Citizenship, they will then near immediately begin sponsoring their relatives to come to America under Chain Migration.. No matter how one calculates it - the numbers in 10 to 20 to 30 years become monstrous.

In 10 years - a total of 30 million new mostly Hispanic Mexican / Central Americans. Then in 20 years - perhaps a total of 40 million - counting the original 20 million. In 30 years perhaps a total of 50 million new citizens in 30 years...

Hispanic illegal aliens have not shown any interest is assimilating to Americanism.. They have shown little interest in learning English...

Once 20 to 30 Million Illegal Aliens and their relatives become Voting Citizens -- there will never be a Republican President ever again. The two party system will evaporate... Coupled with other minorities - they become the majority voting themselves every government benefit that they possibly can get...

Note: My growth numbers are a conservative estimate -- could turn out to be a underestimate.

Edited November 16, 2014 by JDGRUEN

[samran]

The Trojan Horse of the incessant bulldozing of the idea of Comprehensive Immigration Reform - a.k.a. Amnesty is a term called "Chain Migration". Chain Migration is from an old Federal Court ruling that has the weight of law... Chain Migration allows newly anointed American citizens to sponsor - over many many years ALL of their blood relatives back in their home country and become American citizens... I think readers are already getting the picture here... But it gets worse...

The LIE that there is only about 7-8-9 Million Illegal Aliens in America -- is ridiculous. Back in 2005-2006 when this current fight over immigration began proponents claimed 6 million Illegal Aliens. That claimed number was only 1/2 or less of the number of illegal aliens in America at that time. The number now is closer to 20 million illegal aliens. The picture gets a lot clearer ...

If over several years 20 million illegal aliens gain U.S. Citizenship, they will then near immediately begin sponsoring their relatives to come to America under Chain Migration.. No matter how one calculates it - the numbers in 10 to 20 to 30 years become monstrous.

In 10 years - a total of 30 million new mostly Hispanic Mexican / Central Americans. Then in 20 years - perhaps a total of 40 million - counting the original 20 million. In 30 years perhaps a total of 50 million new citizens in 30 years...

Hispanic illegal aliens have not shown any interest is assimilating to Americanism.. They have shown little interest in learning English...

Once 20 to 30 Million Illegal Aliens and their relatives become Voting Citizens -- there will never be a Republican President ever again. The two party system will evaporate... Coupled with other minorities - they become the majority voting themselves every government benefit that they possibly can get...

Note: My growth numbers are a conservative estimate -- could turn out to be a underestimate.

There is a bit of illogic to your argument. No illegal immigrant is ever going to be able to integrate successfully if they forever have to live in the shadows.

99% of Thai Visa finest show day in day out how hard it is to integrate when they are legal....so I think what you are putting out there on that front is a red herring.

Ask me, you need to have a hard think about your constitution and the right to US citizenship it grants to all born on US soil. The discussion needs to be had if that is a pro or a con in this whole situation.

I'm always scratching my head. Canada has much better social services and in most places it's borders with the US are non existant. But why don't mexicans and other illegal inmigrants head there instead? Might have something to do about the insecurity that comes about when your next generation also has no rights to stay.

Just thinking out loud...

[bkkcanuck8]

I'm always scratching my head. Canada has much better social services and in most places it's borders with the US are non existant. But why don't mexicans and other illegal inmigrants head there instead? Might have something to do about the insecurity that comes about when your next generation also has no rights to stay.

Just thinking out loud...

If I remember right around 15 years ago we signed a deal with the US that asylum seekers (which are difficult to get rid of because of the courts) - which take years to adjudicate - have to declare asylum in the first country they come through (i.e. if they entered US to make it to Canada they cannot legitimately be seeking asylum under international law - you cannot shop).

There is also going to be less of a support network of compatriots... which factors into things....

Not to mention they're going to freeze their butts off

Edited November 16, 2014 by bkkcanuck8

[chuckd]

...and I seriously doubt if the Canadian government will give them a free Obama phone,

[JDGRUEN]

The Trojan Horse of the incessant bulldozing of the idea of Comprehensive Immigration Reform - a.k.a. Amnesty is a term called "Chain Migration". Chain Migration is from an old Federal Court ruling that has the weight of law... Chain Migration allows newly anointed American citizens to sponsor - over many many years ALL of their blood relatives back in their home country and become American citizens... I think readers are already getting the picture here... But it gets worse...

The LIE that there is only about 7-8-9 Million Illegal Aliens in America -- is ridiculous. Back in 2005-2006 when this current fight over immigration began proponents claimed 6 million Illegal Aliens. That claimed number was only 1/2 or less of the number of illegal aliens in America at that time. The number now is closer to 20 million illegal aliens. The picture gets a lot clearer ...

If over several years 20 million illegal aliens gain U.S. Citizenship, they will then near immediately begin sponsoring their relatives to come to America under Chain Migration.. No matter how one calculates it - the numbers in 10 to 20 to 30 years become monstrous.

In 10 years - a total of 30 million new mostly Hispanic Mexican / Central Americans. Then in 20 years - perhaps a total of 40 million - counting the original 20 million. In 30 years perhaps a total of 50 million new citizens in 30 years...

Hispanic illegal aliens have not shown any interest is assimilating to Americanism.. They have shown little interest in learning English...

Once 20 to 30 Million Illegal Aliens and their relatives become Voting Citizens -- there will never be a Republican President ever again. The two party system will evaporate... Coupled with other minorities - they become the majority voting themselves every government benefit that they possibly can get...

Note: My growth numbers are a conservative estimate -- could turn out to be a underestimate.

There is a bit of illogic to your argument. No illegal immigrant is ever going to be able to integrate successfully if they forever have to live in the shadows.

99% of Thai Visa finest show day in day out how hard it is to integrate when they are legal....so I think what you are putting out there on that front is a red herring.

Ask me, you need to have a hard think about your constitution and the right to US citizenship it grants to all born on US soil. The discussion needs to be had if that is a pro or a con in this whole situation.

I'm always scratching my head. Canada has much better social services and in most places it's borders with the US are non existant. But why don't mexicans and other illegal inmigrants head there instead? Might have something to do about the insecurity that comes about when your next generation also has no rights to stay.

Just thinking out loud...

Those of us in America who oppose any form of legalization of the status of Illegal Aliens do not want them to assimilate or integrate ... we just want them to go home... Laws affecting their status are being ignored by the obama Administration, Enforcement of laws such as non hiring of illegal aliens and the IRS allowing a form of a Social Security Number to be given to illegal aliens, certain states granting drivers licenses to illegals, government benefits being given to them ..

Those of us who appose Amnesty for the illegal aliens, believe strongly that the enforcement of current laws on the books to cut off jobs for illegals, cutting off welfare benefits to illegals... in short making it neigh on impossible to live in America as an illegal alien with no passport or visa -- then over a 3 to 5 year period the migratory invasion that has been taking place for the past 20 years will slowly reverse and they will self-deport within 5 years.

No one knows if this will work - because Government officials and politicians do not want them to be gone - so they won't do it. The Elitists Big Business Republicans want cheap labor... The Democrats want more compliant voters...

The people who lose are all legitimate American citizens who pay for it all ...

We have 16 million people unemployed in America ... and millions more who have stopped seeking work and they are not in the 16 million figure... And obama want to grant a form of Amnesty to 5 to 10 million .... The truth is all of them will be worked into any broad scale amnesty of any type.... It is all a smoke screen.

Typical obama and Democrat tactic ... the BIG LIE -- hide all the bad things in the bill just like they did in the obamacare fiasco.

[samran]

The Trojan Horse of the incessant bulldozing of the idea of Comprehensive Immigration Reform - a.k.a. Amnesty is a term called "Chain Migration". Chain Migration is from an old Federal Court ruling that has the weight of law... Chain Migration allows newly anointed American citizens to sponsor - over many many years ALL of their blood relatives back in their home country and become American citizens... I think readers are already getting the picture here... But it gets worse...

The LIE that there is only about 7-8-9 Million Illegal Aliens in America -- is ridiculous. Back in 2005-2006 when this current fight over immigration began proponents claimed 6 million Illegal Aliens. That claimed number was only 1/2 or less of the number of illegal aliens in America at that time. The number now is closer to 20 million illegal aliens. The picture gets a lot clearer ...

If over several years 20 million illegal aliens gain U.S. Citizenship, they will then near immediately begin sponsoring their relatives to come to America under Chain Migration.. No matter how one calculates it - the numbers in 10 to 20 to 30 years become monstrous.

In 10 years - a total of 30 million new mostly Hispanic Mexican / Central Americans. Then in 20 years - perhaps a total of 40 million - counting the original 20 million. In 30 years perhaps a total of 50 million new citizens in 30 years...

Hispanic illegal aliens have not shown any interest is assimilating to Americanism.. They have shown little interest in learning English...

Once 20 to 30 Million Illegal Aliens and their relatives become Voting Citizens -- there will never be a Republican President ever again. The two party system will evaporate... Coupled with other minorities - they become the majority voting themselves every government benefit that they possibly can get...

Note: My growth numbers are a conservative estimate -- could turn out to be a underestimate.

There is a bit of illogic to your argument. No illegal immigrant is ever going to be able to integrate successfully if they forever have to live in the shadows.

99% of Thai Visa finest show day in day out how hard it is to integrate when they are legal....so I think what you are putting out there on that front is a red herring.

Ask me, you need to have a hard think about your constitution and the right to US citizenship it grants to all born on US soil. The discussion needs to be had if that is a pro or a con in this whole situation.

I'm always scratching my head. Canada has much better social services and in most places it's borders with the US are non existant. But why don't mexicans and other illegal inmigrants head there instead? Might have something to do about the insecurity that comes about when your next generation also has no rights to stay.

Just thinking out loud...

Those of us in America who oppose any form of legalization of the status of Illegal Aliens do not want them to assimilate or integrate ... we just want them to go home... Laws affecting their status are being ignored by the obama Administration, Enforcement of laws such as non hiring of illegal aliens and the IRS allowing a form of a Social Security Number to be given to illegal aliens, certain states granting drivers licenses to illegals, government benefits being given to them ..

Those of us who appose Amnesty for the illegal aliens, believe strongly that the enforcement of current laws on the books to cut off jobs for illegals, cutting off welfare benefits to illegals... in short making it neigh on impossible to live in America as an illegal alien with no passport or visa -- then over a 3 to 5 year period the migratory invasion that has been taking place for the past 20 years will slowly reverse and they will self-deport within 5 years.

No one knows if this will work - because Government officials and politicians do not want them to be gone - so they won't do it. The Elitists Big Business Republicans want cheap labor... The Democrats want more compliant voters...

The people who lose are all legitimate American citizens who pay for it all ...

We have 16 million people unemployed in America ... and millions more who have stopped seeking work and they are not in the 16 million figure... And obama want to grant a form of Amnesty to 5 to 10 million .... The truth is all of them will be worked into any broad scale amnesty of any type.... It is all a smoke screen.

Typical obama and Democrat tactic ... the BIG LIE -- hide all the bad things in the bill just like they did in the obamacare fiasco.

I respect what you are saying but I think you are on the losing side of this battle. Those two forces of the GOP and the democrats will at some point join forces.

I think self deportation just won't happen. The cost of enforcement will be way too big and will act as an effective tax and regulatory burden to business large and small, not to mention the massive extra funding which will be required to over see it.

Add in the fact that people who are desperate will remain desperate, a life in the shadows in the US will in most cases be preferable to where they comes from speaks a lot to the calculus of life that these people face. And then is your consitution. These people will have kids, and they will be US citizens.

As for the unemployed Americans, again, get it. But even with harsh genghis khan economics applied to them, I don't think many of them will move to where the jobs are, short of a massive massive depression the kind you see which make people move illegally to the U.S. in the first place.

Labour markets are naturally very 'sticky' in the first place. A graduate architect in Louisiana isn't going to work as a bus boy in Orange county. Nor is a low paid mechanic going to necessarily fit into a job market where employers are looking for something else.

I do understand that necessity is a good motivator (nb I work for myself) but I think you over estimate the ease of filling gaps in the job market - and we are taking about the US which when I last looked at these things, albeit many years ago, already had one of the most dynamic and least sticky labour markets anywhere.

For me the solution relies in an amnesty, yes you need one, followed up by a migrant labor scheme which recognises that people are going to come anyway, you might as well tax them, and yes, changing your constitution.

Edited November 16, 2014 by samran

[snarky66]

barry's objective here, beyond minting new democrat voters is to overwhelm the brand new government health insurance scheme. He is a lawless renegade with no regard for the Constitution. Impeachment is certainly the correct response to his illegal behavior.

[JDGRUEN]

The Trojan Horse of the incessant bulldozing of the idea of Comprehensive Immigration Reform - a.k.a. Amnesty is a term called "Chain Migration". Chain Migration is from an old Federal Court ruling that has the weight of law... Chain Migration allows newly anointed American citizens to sponsor - over many many years ALL of their blood relatives back in their home country and become American citizens... I think readers are already getting the picture here... But it gets worse...

The LIE that there is only about 7-8-9 Million Illegal Aliens in America -- is ridiculous. Back in 2005-2006 when this current fight over immigration began proponents claimed 6 million Illegal Aliens. That claimed number was only 1/2 or less of the number of illegal aliens in America at that time. The number now is closer to 20 million illegal aliens. The picture gets a lot clearer ...

If over several years 20 million illegal aliens gain U.S. Citizenship, they will then near immediately begin sponsoring their relatives to come to America under Chain Migration.. No matter how one calculates it - the numbers in 10 to 20 to 30 years become monstrous.

In 10 years - a total of 30 million new mostly Hispanic Mexican / Central Americans. Then in 20 years - perhaps a total of 40 million - counting the original 20 million. In 30 years perhaps a total of 50 million new citizens in 30 years...

Hispanic illegal aliens have not shown any interest is assimilating to Americanism.. They have shown little interest in learning English...

Once 20 to 30 Million Illegal Aliens and their relatives become Voting Citizens -- there will never be a Republican President ever again. The two party system will evaporate... Coupled with other minorities - they become the majority voting themselves every government benefit that they possibly can get...

Note: My growth numbers are a conservative estimate -- could turn out to be a underestimate.

There is a bit of illogic to your argument. No illegal immigrant is ever going to be able to integrate successfully if they forever have to live in the shadows.

99% of Thai Visa finest show day in day out how hard it is to integrate when they are legal....so I think what you are putting out there on that front is a red herring.

Ask me, you need to have a hard think about your constitution and the right to US citizenship it grants to all born on US soil. The discussion needs to be had if that is a pro or a con in this whole situation.

I'm always scratching my head. Canada has much better social services and in most places it's borders with the US are non existant. But why don't mexicans and other illegal inmigrants head there instead? Might have something to do about the insecurity that comes about when your next generation also has no rights to stay.

Just thinking out loud...

Those of us in America who oppose any form of legalization of the status of Illegal Aliens do not want them to assimilate or integrate ... we just want them to go home... Laws affecting their status are being ignored by the obama Administration, Enforcement of laws such as non hiring of illegal aliens and the IRS allowing a form of a Social Security Number to be given to illegal aliens, certain states granting drivers licenses to illegals, government benefits being given to them ..

Those of us who appose Amnesty for the illegal aliens, believe strongly that the enforcement of current laws on the books to cut off jobs for illegals, cutting off welfare benefits to illegals... in short making it neigh on impossible to live in America as an illegal alien with no passport or visa -- then over a 3 to 5 year period the migratory invasion that has been taking place for the past 20 years will slowly reverse and they will self-deport within 5 years.

No one knows if this will work - because Government officials and politicians do not want them to be gone - so they won't do it. The Elitists Big Business Republicans want cheap labor... The Democrats want more compliant voters...

The people who lose are all legitimate American citizens who pay for it all ...

We have 16 million people unemployed in America ... and millions more who have stopped seeking work and they are not in the 16 million figure... And obama want to grant a form of Amnesty to 5 to 10 million .... The truth is all of them will be worked into any broad scale amnesty of any type.... It is all a smoke screen.

Typical obama and Democrat tactic ... the BIG LIE -- hide all the bad things in the bill just like they did in the obamacare fiasco.

I respect what you are saying but I think you are on the losing side of this battle. Those two forces of the GOP and the democrats will at some point join forces.

I think self deportation just won't happen. The cost of enforcement will be way too big and will act as an effective tax and regulatory burden to business large and small, not to mention the massive extra funding which will be required to over see it.

Add in the fact that people who are desperate will remain desperate, a life in the shadows in the US will in most cases be preferable to where they comes from speaks a lot to the calculus of life that these people face. And then is your consitution. These people will have kids, and they will be US citizens.

As for the unemployed Americans, again, get it. But even with harsh genghis khan economics applied to them, I don't think many of them will move to where the jobs are, short of a massive massive depression the kind you see which make people move illegally to the U.S. in the first place.

Labour markets are naturally very 'sticky' in the first place. A graduate architect in Louisiana isn't going to work as a bus boy in Orange county. Nor is a low paid mechanic going to necessarily fit into a job market where employers are looking for something else.

I do understand that necessity is a good motivator (nb I work for myself) but I think you over estimate the ease of filling gaps in the job market - and we are taking about the US which when I last looked at these things, albeit many years ago, already had one of the most dynamic and least sticky labour markets anywhere.

For me the solution relies in an amnesty, yes you need one, followed up by a migrant labor scheme which recognises that people are going to come anyway, you might as well tax them, and yes, changing your constitution.

You have no real idea of actual conditions in America ... we do not NEED any sort of foreign labor - manual labor or professional labor or anything in between ... CAN YOU READ?.. We have 16 million - closer to 20 million American Citizens without a job -- Why on Earth do we need 20 million illegal aliens to do jobs in America?

The answer is No - we do not need any ... We need to put Americans to work. .Can you do the Math?

Also - there is NO U.S. Constitutional RIGHT to enter America ... There is no Universal Right to be allowed to live in America .. So - what are you talking about? Can you - Samran -- just pack up and go live in any country you want ? The answer is NO - you cannot... So Why is America different?- can you tell me?

People like you live in a Fantasy Land... where nothing is real .. .just a video game - where all conditions are changed by the players...

Edited November 16, 2014 by JDGRUEN

[F430murci]

Obama needs to listen to Putin's insight regarding immigration on this one.

--------

"In Russia live Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer Sharia Law, and live the life of Muslims then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Russia does not need Muslim minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'. We will not tolerate disrespect of our Russian culture. We had better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Muslims are taking over those countries and they will not take over Russia. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of Sharia Law and Muslims. When this honorable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the Russian national interest first, observing that the Muslim minorities are not Russians.

https://reclaimourrepublic.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/video-putins-short-speech-on-sharia-law/

Edited November 16, 2014 by F430murci

[samran]

You have no real idea of actual conditions in America ... we do not NEED any sort of foreign labor - manual labor or professional labor or anything in between ... CAN YOU READ?.. We have 16 million - closer to 20 million American Citizens without a job -- Why on Earth do we need 20 million illegal aliens to do jobs in America?

The answer is No - we do not need any ... We need to put Americans to work. .Can you do the Math?

Also - there is NO U.S. Constitutional RIGHT to enter America ... There is no Universal Right to be allowed to live in America .. So - what are you talking about? Can you - Samran -- just pack up and go live in any country you want ? The answer is NO - you cannot... So Why is America different?- can you tell me?

People like you live in a Fantasy Land... where nothing is real .. .just a video game - where all conditions are changed by the players...

Okay, I'm trying to have a rational discussion on immigration, you aren't.

A couple of points:

- I know there is no constitutional right to enter the U.S. But your constitution does grant automatic citizenship to those born on US soil. So this is clearly an incentive which needs to be take away, otherwise people will keep coming. This is what I was referring to when mentioning the constitution.

- secondly, people pack up and come to live on Thailand all the time. Thailand has a similar issue with workers from Laos, Myanamar and Cambodia. They come over illegally and there is a system to make them legal for work proposes. Not green cards or citizenship, just to work. So there are places which do it, and the US could learn from.

I don't agree that the U.S. has no need for this type of labour. Just like water running down hill, If people didn't need them they wouldn't be hiring them. It is the type of free market capitalism that has made the US great.

Having a great big government in the sky telling people what they need and what they don't need... Well dang, that sounds like socialism to me. Sounds like you want to tell business who to hire and not to hire...are you a socialist too?

And....you could try to take people off all sorts of welfare. Equity issues aside (and there are plenty), even if you stripped all welfare away from people in attempt to force them to work, that wouldn't make them work. As I said, labour markets are 'sticky'. People just dont up and leave if they don't need to. So people are still going to be unemployed.

So again, just trying to have a rational policy debate here. Maybe we can step back from the capitalised spellings?

Edited November 16, 2014 by samran

[Publicus]

Obama needs to listen to Putin's insight regarding immigration on this one.

--------

"In Russia live Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer Sharia Law, and live the life of Muslims then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Russia does not need Muslim minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'. We will not tolerate disrespect of our Russian culture. We had better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Muslims are taking over those countries and they will not take over Russia. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of Sharia Law and Muslims. When this honorable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the Russian national interest first, observing that the Muslim minorities are not Russians.

https://reclaimourrepublic.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/video-putins-short-speech-on-sharia-law/

Prez Obama doesn't need to listen to Vladimir Putin on this one or on any one, and the POTUS does not in fact accept such nationalistic and ethnic jargon not to mention any such religious mumbo jumbo. No president has ever modeled himself after Russia in anything and no POTUS ever would.

Putin is a barbarian which is why no respectable or honorable leader on the planet listens to him about government, society, culture, civilization, to include his pogrom-happy religion.

Putin left the G-20 early yesterday rather than face Nato and EU heads of government concerning his Russian imperialism against Ukraine and his nuclear hyperventilation against Europe, North America, Australia/Oceania and indeed East Asia and SE Asia. Putin instead turned tail and ran off like a defanged bear with no claws besides.

The United States and Canada have very well melded Muslim immigrants or converts into a fundamentally Judeo-Christian civilization and they have done so effectively, while I would say the EU countries would be well served to become more discriminating but not discriminatory in their socio-cultural attitudes and policies.

But to emulate 1000 years of Russian tsarism to include totalitarian communism that are now manifested by Putinism is recommended to no one in any and every regard. The US constitution and Vladimir Putin's Russia are at opposite poles completely and entirely.

[chuckd]

You have no real idea of actual conditions in America ... we do not NEED any sort of foreign labor - manual labor or professional labor or anything in between ... CAN YOU READ?.. We have 16 million - closer to 20 million American Citizens without a job -- Why on Earth do we need 20 million illegal aliens to do jobs in America?

The answer is No - we do not need any ... We need to put Americans to work. .Can you do the Math?

Also - there is NO U.S. Constitutional RIGHT to enter America ... There is no Universal Right to be allowed to live in America .. So - what are you talking about? Can you - Samran -- just pack up and go live in any country you want ? The answer is NO - you cannot... So Why is America different?- can you tell me?

People like you live in a Fantasy Land... where nothing is real .. .just a video game - where all conditions are changed by the players...

Okay, I'm trying to have a rational discussion on immigration, you aren't.

A couple of points:

- I know there is no constitutional right to enter the U.S. But your constitution does grant automatic citizenship to those born on US soil. So this is clearly an incentive which needs to be take away, otherwise people will keep coming. This is what I was referring to when mentioning the constitution.

- secondly, people pack up and come to live on Thailand all the time. Thailand has a similar issue with workers from Laos, Myanamar and Cambodia. They come over illegally and there is a system to make them legal for work proposes. Not green cards or citizenship, just to work. So there are places which do it, and the US could learn from.

I don't agree that the U.S. has no need for this type of labour. Just like water running down hill, If people didn't need them they wouldn't be hiring them. It is the type of free market capitalism that has made the US great.

Having a great big government in the sky telling people what they need and what they don't need... Well dang, that sounds like socialism to me. Sounds like you want to tell business who to hire and not to hire...are you a socialist too?

And....you could try to take people off all sorts of welfare. Equity issues aside (and there are plenty), even if you stripped all welfare away from people in attempt to force them to work, that wouldn't make them work. As I said, labour markets are 'sticky'. People just dont up and leave if they don't need to. So people are still going to be unemployed.

So again, just trying to have a rational policy debate here. Maybe we can step back from the capitalised spellings?

Samran:

For your information:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Report: 71 Percent of New Jobs Go to Foreign Born Legal, Illegal Immigrants in NH

October 30, 2014 - 10:27 AM

By Penny Starr

(CNSNews.com) – A new report by the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) shows that the state with senators who both voted for the “Gang of Eight” immigration bill, which cleared the Senate in June, has 71 percent of its job growth going to foreign-born workers, including legal and illegal immigrants.

Sens. Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.) and Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.) both voted for Senate Bill 744, which CIS calculated would have roughly doubled the number of new foreign workers allowed into the country and would have given legal status to millions of illegal aliens already in the country had the legislation been passed by the House and become law.

A CIS analysis using data from the U.S. Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey showed that since 2000, 71 percent of the net increase in the number of working-age (16 to 65) people holding a job in New Hampshire has gone to immigrants (legal and illegal), even though the native-born accounted for 65 percent of population growth among the working-age.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/penny-starr/report-71-percent-new-jobs-go-foreign-born-legal-illegal-immigrants-nh

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...and...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All Employment Growth Since 2000 Went to Immigrants

Number of U.S.-born not working grew by 17 million

By Karen Zeigler, Steven A. Camarota June 2014

Steven A. Camarota is the Director of Research and Karen Zeigler is a demographer at the Center for Immigration Studies.

Government data show that since 2000 all of the net gain in the number of working-age (16 to 65) people holding a job has gone to immigrants (legal and illegal). This is remarkable given that native-born Americans accounted for two-thirds of the growth in the total working-age population. Though there has been some recovery from the Great Recession, there were still fewer working-age natives holding a job in the first quarter of 2014 than in 2000, while the number of immigrants with a job was 5.7 million above the 2000 level.

http://cis.org/all-employment-growth-since-2000-went-to-immigrants

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is already an enormous problem. Legalizing an additional 5-20 million new individuals will hardly ease the problem for our citizens.

It will certainly help the cash flow of Central and South American countries but will hardly help the average worker in the US.

[samran]

^^ I'm not convinced that shutting off the tap of foreign workers will do squat for the native labour market. I really don't.

I don't disagree that the first point of call should always be citizens and permanent residents. Call it a labour market test if you want to..., but if you ban all options for labour, you are condemning business to second rate workers, even if they can get them. That is an unfair handicap in this day and age.

[bkkcanuck8]

You have no real idea of actual conditions in America ... we do not NEED any sort of foreign labor - manual labor or professional labor or anything in between ... CAN YOU READ?.. We have 16 million - closer to 20 million American Citizens without a job -- Why on Earth do we need 20 million illegal aliens to do jobs in America?

The answer is No - we do not need any ... We need to put Americans to work. .Can you do the Math?

Also - there is NO U.S. Constitutional RIGHT to enter America ... There is no Universal Right to be allowed to live in America .. So - what are you talking about? Can you - Samran -- just pack up and go live in any country you want ? The answer is NO - you cannot... So Why is America different?- can you tell me?

People like you live in a Fantasy Land... where nothing is real .. .just a video game - where all conditions are changed by the players...

Actually, you have a country with almost a third of the population being lazy and not really wanting to work. If you actually asked them if they wanted to do "manual labour" you would probably have a much higher percentage. No foreigners -- will lead to empty tables at dinner time... because half the people will be out there on their porches smoking weed and expecting someone else to work for them.

On Friday, the Washington Examiner reported that according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, a full 85.9 million Americans had said they did not want a job last month – 93 percent of all of those who had dropped out of labor force. The labor force participation rate in the United States is at a three-decade low thanks to President Obama’s job-killing economic measures. Pew Research Center found that 39 percent of 16-24 year olds didn’t want to work. That number had skyrocketed ten percent over the last 14 years. Among men, 28.5 percent said they didn’t want a job.

[Publicus]

The Trojan Horse of the incessant bulldozing of the idea of Comprehensive Immigration Reform - a.k.a. Amnesty is a term called "Chain Migration". Chain Migration is from an old Federal Court ruling that has the weight of law... Chain Migration allows newly anointed American citizens to sponsor - over many many years ALL of their blood relatives back in their home country and become American citizens... I think readers are already getting the picture here... But it gets worse...

The LIE that there is only about 7-8-9 Million Illegal Aliens in America -- is ridiculous. Back in 2005-2006 when this current fight over immigration began proponents claimed 6 million Illegal Aliens. That claimed number was only 1/2 or less of the number of illegal aliens in America at that time. The number now is closer to 20 million illegal aliens. The picture gets a lot clearer ...

If over several years 20 million illegal aliens gain U.S. Citizenship, they will then near immediately begin sponsoring their relatives to come to America under Chain Migration.. No matter how one calculates it - the numbers in 10 to 20 to 30 years become monstrous.

In 10 years - a total of 30 million new mostly Hispanic Mexican / Central Americans. Then in 20 years - perhaps a total of 40 million - counting the original 20 million. In 30 years perhaps a total of 50 million new citizens in 30 years...

Hispanic illegal aliens have not shown any interest is assimilating to Americanism.. They have shown little interest in learning English...

Once 20 to 30 Million Illegal Aliens and their relatives become Voting Citizens -- there will never be a Republican President ever again. The two party system will evaporate... Coupled with other minorities - they become the majority voting themselves every government benefit that they possibly can get...

Note: My growth numbers are a conservative estimate -- could turn out to be a underestimate.

Ah yes, in argument and discussion the post above uses the long discredited tack called "the long train of possible horrors." That is, if this happens then that will happen, and that will happen in a long and cumulative series of neverending occurrences.

In other words, using the alphabet, if you write A then you must write B, and if you write B then you must write C.....and pretty quickly you find yourself at Z.

Just as there are runaway trains however there is also runaway logic. The post rattles loudly with the sounds of its runaway long train of possible horrors logic.

Then there are the really very scary and grotesquely horrifying numbers, especially in establishing their starting point....

The LIE that there is only about 7-8-9 Million Illegal Aliens in America -- is ridiculous. The number now is closer to 20 million illegal aliens. In 10 years - a total of 30 million new mostly Hispanic Mexican / Central Americans. Then in 20 years - perhaps a total of 40 million - counting the original 20 million. In 30 years perhaps a total of 50 million new citizens in 30 years..

The numbers in the post don't scare me in the least because I know they are pulledoutta from where the sundon'tshine. And while the numbers rattled off in the post don't scare me, the simplistic logic of the post does scare me, a lot.

By the numbers: How America tallies its 11.1 million undocumented immigrants

The debate over how to deal with the approximately 11 million individuals living in the United States without authorization - including the argument over whether to call them “illegal” or “undocumented” - is perhaps the most politically tricky aspect of the sprawling immigration policy overhaul effort.

So who are the 11 million? And how do we know how many there are?

It’s difficult to count people who by definition are unlikely to disclose their actual immigration status to the government, so demographers use what’s called the “residual method” to determine about how many undocumented individuals are in the country.

http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/11/17691515-by-the-numbers-how-america-tallies-its-111-million-undocumented-immigrants?lite