Farangs To Blame Or Are They?

[bazmlb]

I see many storys here about the bar scene and how it seems to say a lot about Farangs to blame for it and saw this

A History of Thai Prostitution

An interesting little essay from the writers of the monthly Baron Bonk email bulletin:

Putting the blame where it belongs

It seems to be the fashion these days for Thai politicians to blame Thailand 's naughty nightlife on “foreign influences”. “It's all the Farangs' fault,” they like to claim, since obviously the virtuous Thais could never have come up with such a thing on their own.

Well, such talk may be good for winning votes, but anyone with a bit of sense can easily see through it. If you doubt it, let's take a brief look at the real history of the “honey for money” trade in Old Siam.

Embarrassingly enough, records exist to show that prostitution was not only legal during the Ayutthaya Period (1350 to 1767 A.D), but was actually taxed by the government. The brothels were located in Ayutthaya 's Chinatown and apparently the "working girls" were all Chinese too. In fact, 17th century French visitors commented on the difficulty of finding an ethnic Thai woman even willing to become the long term mistress (mia noi) of a foreigner. How times have changed!

In 1767, of course, the invading Burmese army completely destroyed Ayutthaya , carrying off tens of thousands into slavery and conducting an orgy of rape and pillage that Thais have still not forgiven. The half-Chinese King Taksin, who won the struggle for the vacant throne, moved his capital farther south to little village of Bangkok , on the lower Chao Phaya River . And guess what: when the capital moved, the brothels came right along with it.

All through the early decades of the present Bangkok period, the brothels, tea rooms and opium dens were located in Sampeng, the main " Chinatown ". The most famous madam of that time was Yai Faeng, whose brothel in Yannawa was noted for having the most refined "ladies" in the trade. According to contemporary descriptions, Faeng's girls dressed politely in colourful Thai or Chinese attire and always had fresh orchids in their hair. They also refrained from the uncouth practice of rushing out into the soi to drag in any male who happened to stroll by. Faeng is still remembered for organising the “ladies of easy virtue” to raise sufficient funds to build two complete Buddhist temples, one in Yannawa and the other in Thonburi.

In the latter part of the 19 th Century, the revered King Chulalongkorn (Rama V) began abolishing slavery in gradual steps. His task was completed in 1905, and the new reverse of the 100 baht note shows the King making the proclamation. What is seldom mentioned, however, is a totally unexpected result of the ending of involuntary servitude in Thailand . It seems that without the support of their masters, large numbers of these former slaves had nowhere to turn except to prostitution.

To control the sudden increase, the Contagious Disease Prevention Act was passed in 1908. This decree required all brothels to be registered and periodically inspected. To identify such places, a green lantern had to be hung outside the door. Brothels naturally became known as “green-lantern houses” and the girls themselves were called “green-lantern women”. (Wouldn't the “Green Lantern” be a fantastic name for a bar today?)

Prostitution remained legal in Thailand until the 1960s, when Field Marshal Sarit Thanarat's government finally outlawed it. But in fact, the law has never been more than half-heartedly enforced and is said to have been enacted only under pressure from the United States government.

Bangkok 's so-called massage parlours began appearing in the 1960s, presumably as a response to the closing of the brothels. (Many also seem to have formerly been opium dens, before that too was outlawed.) Go-go bars did not appear until near the end of the Vietnam War era, so the oft blamed American GIs can hardly be responsible for the city's erotic nightlife.

To be sure, the presence of tens of thousands of randy young American servicemen caused a major expansion of Thailand's bar scene in the 1960s and early '70s, but don't forget that the Japanese had as many as 300,000 of their troops occupying the country during World War II. And immediately after that, some 30,000 British and Indian troops arrived to disarm the vanquished Japanese warriors. You can be sure that the forces of all these nations received a warm welcome from the “working girls” whilst they were here.

The late Jorges Orgibet, who came to Thailand with the United States Information Service at war's end, wrote that there were then 85 “cabarets” in the capital city. These cabarets employed attractive young hostesses who naturally enough were available for “take out” services.

“The Cathay Club was probably the most popular of all,” said Orgibet. “Those were the days when the White Tiger, the Leopard, Noisy, the Snake and a few more of the more notable dance partners were the toast of the bachelor community. There was a nine-storey building on Yaowaraj Road in Chinatown reputedly the world's largest whorehouse. Then there were the strip joints; the most renown was a big two-storey wooden theatre across from Chalerm Krung cinema.”

Orjibet informs us that “ Bangkok in the late 40's even had the reputation of being one of the blue movie capitals of the world. One top-floor loft on Bang Moh housed a Thai film studio devoted entirely to blue movie production.” Compare that with the current crackdown on nudity in the go-go bars and the censorship of foreign films!

The American GIs and those who came after them simply were following in the footsteps of a long line of predecessors. Read Jack Reynolds' fascinating 1956 novel “Woman of Bangkok”, if you have any doubts about it.

If the current batch of politicians chose to criticize it, so be it. But let them at least be honest enough put the blame where it actually belongs.

Refernces:

Orjibet, Jorges. "From Siam to Thailand : Backdrop to the Land of Smiles." United Productions Company, Bangkok , 1982

Skrobanek, Siriporn. "The Traffic in Women." Zed Books, Bangkok , 1997

Boonchalaksi, Wathinee. "Prostitution in Thailand ." Mahidol University Press, Nakhon Pathom, 1994

[thohts]

I'm sure you will find that locals visit more prostitutes than foreigners.

It's just not out in the open like it is with many 'farang'

[Scott]

Shocking--There's prostitution in Thailand?

[Donz]

I'm sure you will find that locals visit more prostitutes than foreigners.

It's just not out in the open like it is with many 'farang'

Im not so sure, but the locals outnumber the foreigners by a HUGE margin, so you would think so, but this is Thailand and alot of foreigners love the Pro's

[sbk]

I'm sure you will find that locals visit more prostitutes than foreigners.

It's just not out in the open like it is with many 'farang'

Im not so sure, but the locals outnumber the foreigners by a HUGE margin, so you would think so, but this is Thailand and alot of foreigners love the Pro's

Obviously, this is Thailand so that the majority of men in this country will be, at any given moment, Thai. So, it would be pretty obvious that the majority of men visiting prostitutes would be Thai since they are in the overwhelming majority. But, does he really have any proof that percentage wise a larger number of Thai men compared to all farang men currently in the country visit prostitutes?

Or is this just a personal observation?

[Pattayatony]

Oh Yes " The Good Old Days " in fact there are still short time places in China town where the Thai can get a short time for 100B, so Im told.

I had a discussion back in 1991 with some Thais about Pedophiles and they said that Thailand wouldnt have any pedophiles if it wasnt for the Farlang that come here. My responce was You wouldnt have the problem if the Thais would stop selling their children!!!!! I was NOT very popular!!!!!!!!!!

Edited August 3, 2006 by Pattayatony

[Thaising]

Oh Yes " The Good Old Days " in fact there are still short time places in China town where the Thai can get a short time for 100B, so Im told.

Short time for 100 baht, it must be some desperate freelance hookers somewhere in sanam luang.

[alexth]

Oh Yes " The Good Old Days " in fact there are still short time places in China town where the Thai can get a short time for 100B, so Im told.

Short time for 100 baht, it must be some desperate freelance hookers somewhere in sanam luang.

WOW, I guess that's what they call a "conosseur"

[britmaveric]

Oh Yes " The Good Old Days " in fact there are still short time places in China town where the Thai can get a short time for 100B, so Im told.

Short time for 100 baht, it must be some desperate freelance hookers somewhere in sanam luang.

half a day salary?

[kerryk]

I'm sure you will find that locals visit more prostitutes than foreigners.

It's just not out in the open like it is with many 'farang'

Im not so sure, but the locals outnumber the foreigners by a HUGE margin, so you would think so, but this is Thailand and alot of foreigners love the Pro's

Obviously, this is Thailand so that the majority of men in this country will be, at any given moment, Thai. So, it would be pretty obvious that the majority of men visiting prostitutes would be Thai since they are in the overwhelming majority. But, does he really have any proof that percentage wise a larger number of Thai men compared to all farang men currently in the country visit prostitutes?

Or is this just a personal observation?

Statistics are very difficult to find. I would also question if one should include mia noi’s in the totals. I only have experience in Bangkok and Chiang Mai. If one counts the number of venues in Bangkok and Chiang Mai the overwhelming majority cater to Thai men. The problem is they don’t have a sign outside that states this fact so it is difficult for the uninformed to spot them. I don’t think any Thai male would question that the great majority of Thai pay for play ladies never see a Farang but that is not a question that is easy for a Farang to ask. I think the only debate among the numbers of patrons would occur among Farang who had little or no experience with the industry.

In speaking with owners of clubs, bars and restaurants in Bangkok I came up with the following estimates of Thai only P4P Venues. 3000 Karaoke, 100 Massage parlors, 100 restaurants with take out service, 50 bar beers.

Contrast those numbers with the Farang frequented clubs and you begin to get an idea. I didn’t see them all but I took a tour of the better known ones so I could get an idea of how the business fared as opposed to owning a business that catered specifically to Western people. To be accurate a large percentage of the women working in the Thai venues come from Burma. These ladies can’t work in the Farang clubs because they lack documentation and other factors.

In case you are wondering, I came to the conclusion that the market in Bangkok was saturated and the only people making any real money were the landlords.

In plain English there are a lot of suckers involved in the trade and the only people not being taken advantage are the landlords and by law they are almost all Thai.

[LoveDaBlues]

I take exception with the topic title, "Farangs to Blame....etc.".

The topic title would be better worded, "Farangs Responsible Or....etc.".

The word "Blame" has the connotation that there is something wrong or bad. I find nothing wrong or bad with the bar scene here.

[Donz]

Percentage wise Farang IMO would take a massive chunk, only my observation though, when im in the touristy spots all i see is farang picking up the pro's, sure there is many other places farang dont go to get one but of what ive seen alot of farang go to thailand and sleep with prosititutes. It would be interesting too see what percentage of just farang guys have paid for sex then havent.

[kerryk]

Percentage wise Farang IMO would take a massive chunk, only my observation though, when im in the touristy spots all i see is farang picking up the pro's, sure there is many other places farang dont go to get one but of what ive seen alot of farang go to thailand and sleep with prosititutes. It would be interesting too see what percentage of just farang guys have paid for sex then havent.

Why would that be interesting? It has nothing to do with the topic of Farang vs. Thai because you have left the Thai's out of the equation.

[Donz]

Percentage wise Farang IMO would take a massive chunk, only my observation though, when im in the touristy spots all i see is farang picking up the pro's, sure there is many other places farang dont go to get one but of what ive seen alot of farang go to thailand and sleep with prosititutes. It would be interesting too see what percentage of just farang guys have paid for sex then havent.

Why would that be interesting? It has nothing to do with the topic of Farang vs. Thai because you have left the Thai's out of the equation.

I think it would be interesting, it sort of does relate to the topic as we are talking about how many thai/farang venture these places.

[britmaveric]

I'd say in comparison prob like 80-90% thai vs 10-20% farang industry wide.

Edited August 3, 2006 by britmaveric

[Ijustwannateach]

The only thing I think we foreigners can really be blamed for introducing to Thailand is tourist traps of various sorts. By simple common sense and majority population, the majority of all virtuous acts, vices, and indeed crimes of all types in Thailand are committed by Thais.

I don't suppose that should really be surprising to anyone?

[kerryk]

I'd say in comparison prob like 80-90% thai vs 10-20% farang industry wide.

As would anyone else who lived in Thailand and had some knowledge of the place without rose colored glasses.

[bazmlb]

I take exception with the topic title, "Farangs to Blame....etc.".

The topic title would be better worded, "Farangs Responsible Or....etc.".

The word "Blame" has the connotation that there is something wrong or bad. I find nothing wrong or bad with the bar scene here.

The Title just reflects the open paragraph "Thai politicians to blame Thailand 's naughty nightlife on “foreign influences”. “It's all the Farangs' fault"

Sorry if it offends, i find nothing wrong with it as well

[samran]

I take exception with the topic title, "Farangs to Blame....etc.".

The topic title would be better worded, "Farangs Responsible Or....etc.".

The word "Blame" has the connotation that there is something wrong or bad. I find nothing wrong or bad with the bar scene here.

The Title just reflects the open paragraph "Thai politicians to blame Thailand 's naughty nightlife on “foreign influences”. “It's all the Farangs' fault"

Sorry if it offends, i find nothing wrong with it as well

hmmm, interesting one. Countering wild generalisations with other wild generalisations. Must be a great debating trick.

[kayo]

I refer to quotes made by our "caretaker":

"There is no prostitution in Thailand"

"Our visitors from abroad are made to feel welcome in Thailand is our nation is the Hub of many spectacular modern and mysterious historical Values and destinations."

[Donz]

I'd say in comparison prob like 80-90% thai vs 10-20% farang industry wide.

I would say is 60/40

[Totster]

I'd say in comparison prob like 80-90% thai vs 10-20% farang industry wide.

I would say is 60/40

And how do you come to that figure doze ?

totster

[Bung]

I'd say in comparison prob like 80-90% thai vs 10-20% farang industry wide.

As would anyone else who lived in Thailand and had some knowledge of the place without rose colored glasses.

You guy's are right. I have read figures that back this up somewhere (I can't be bothered to look it up to quote the source).

It is only because the Farang nightlife is so in the open and so in your face that people beleive it is the majority. You have to remrember how many people are in this country and bear in mind there are a lot of other places other than Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok, etc and it is prevelant in all towns, just not so obvious...

It is also more of a health problem as it is not monitored like the farang spots. If the government wanted to get serious about it they should start up country and leave the Farang alone.

[mbkudu]

It is only because the Farang nightlife is so in the open and so in your face that people beleive it is the majority. You have to remrember how many people are in this country and bear in mind there are a lot of other places other than Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok, etc and it is prevelant in all towns, just not so obvious...

There is a place, at least one, to find it in every single village across Thailand. In my wife's village in rural Issan there are a few joints along the small highway that usually have coloured florescent tubes out front, a few shacks, some tables with a small bar and maybe a Karaoke machine. These little venues are all over Thailand, everywhere. Some people just go to have a drink and sing a song, but some go for drinking, singing and 'merryment'. No reason to get in a huff over it; they're just trying to be accommodating. I have heard rumors that there are a few places like these called 'Nana' and 'Cowboy' down in the big city.

[Bung]

I've also heard hairdressing salons are often fronts for prostitution up country.

[mbkudu]

I've also heard hairdressing salons are often fronts for prostitution up country.

No, really! You're kidding?!

[bazmlb]

I've also heard hairdressing salons are often fronts for prostitution up country.

No, really! You're kidding?!

Kind of like the "clip joints" in patpong ?

end up with a big bill for something you didnt really go in there for

[tom yum goong]

prostitution is rife in Thailand. The farang oriented scene is a tiny fraction of what really goes on.

karaoke joints, massage parlours, hairdressers and actual brothels abound in every town and city throughout Thailand.

the farang scene is only limited to major tourist areas and is peanuts by comparison. I would go as far as to say the 90% to 10% quoted above is still too high. In terms of people involved and the number of establishments catering to Thai clientele, I would put a guess in at 99% Thai and 1% farang.

[TRIPxCORE]

I know the Thai government doesnt want it around because the consider it a blemish on the face of the country but I dont know why it's such a big deal. As long as people are careful about things and do things right, there should be no problem. Guys want to be able to have sex with different girls and no attachments and most of the time, the women use it as a way to support themselves or their families. It's a two-way street and both sides benefit. Why are so many people against something that is beneficial to others?

The only time I can understand trying to shut it down is when girls are forced into it beyond their will.

[kerryk]

Percentage wise Farang IMO would take a massive chunk, only my observation though, when im in the touristy spots all i see is farang picking up the pro's, sure there is many other places farang dont go to get one but of what ive seen alot of farang go to thailand and sleep with prosititutes. It would be interesting too see what percentage of just farang guys have paid for sex then havent.

I got to thinking about what you wrote and I assume that you were going to say that you didn’t pay for it.

But I don’t think you have had the proper experience to make a definitive statement.

You can observe by watching Thai TV what the ideal is in a man. It is not a Farang it is a loo krung. Almost everyone on TV is either 50/50 or has had a nose job and white make up to look 50/50.

Since I have seen a photo of you I assume you are 50/50.

The ladies in the bars would not ask you to pay for it. The ladies in the bar would pay you.

So you would get paid for it instead of paying for it.

To go back to the OP’s question would you be responsible prostitution? Sure, the ladies would have to date a Farang to pay for you.

Morally it might even be worse than paying for it.

Since you don’t live here full time you have no idea of the moral challenge you would face. Not only bars but grocery stores and barber shops and restaurants. They would be all over you, all the time.