'Four killed' in Jerusalem synagogue attack

[Jingthing]

This attack is just another one against Israel and Jews perpetrated by Muslims for over 60 years who cannot accept the state of Israel. Why? because Islam is a divisive and violent religion that calls for the conversion or elimination of all unbelievers. Islam is the greatest threat to peace and stability in the world today.

Words a tad strong for me, but one thing is clear Jews aren't aggressively converting anyone (they haven't stayed a TINY TINY global minority by accident) ... large percentages of Jewish people are themselves unbelievers and that's OK! ... so when you've got Jihadist Islamist culture as in Hamas and Jewish culture mixing ... well let's say it's not gonna ever be as smooth as HUMMUS!

At least both sides have HUMMUS!

Edited November 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

This attack is just another one against Israel and Jews perpetrated by Muslims for over 60 years who cannot accept the state of Israel. Why? because Islam is a divisive and violent religion that calls for the conversion or elimination of all unbelievers. Islam is the greatest threat to peace and stability in the world today.

I would say that RADICAL Islam is the greatest threat to peace and stability in the world today, but I understand your concerns about the religion itself, if followed strictly.

[Ulysses G.]

Oh? Does that include the 45 UNHRC finding? Almost as many as issued to the rest of the world combined? First one only 8 years ago.

That's where you know something is rotten in the state of UN. There is no way that reflects the reality of the world, that tiny Israel is the worse violator in the world by far.

That is the whole point. The UN ignore almost everyone besides Israel.

[Morch]

The only hope going forward is that the Israeli people will wake up and realize that there is no path to peace with Netanyahu. As long as he is in power, these strategic actions will continue.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you describing the terrorist murders at the synagogue as strategic actions?

The recent actions recently undertaken by the Palestinian freedom fighters are most definitely strategic in nature. The tables have turned and now the average Israeli feels as safe in a synagogue in Jerusalem as a Palestinian does in a mosque in Gaza.

How does Israelis feeling unsafe promote the prospect of Palestinian independence? Usually, these action serve to strengthen the Israeli right wing, as they are seen as "proof" that the Palestinians are not to be trusted and as representing their aims toward Israel.

Disregarding Netanyau, it would be much harder for any Israeli PM to carry through a peace negotiations effort while such attacks occur.

And again, this "strategic" thinking - care to elaborate on who formulated it? What are the aims, means etc?

Edited November 19, 2014 by Scott

[Morch]

The killings took place in an ultra orthodox area... same as the alleged suicide busman, where he had to drive each day amidst chants of "Death to the Arabs"...so maybe tit for tat

"But colleagues and family said there were signs of violence on his body[busman], claiming he was murdered.

And the Palestinian pathologist who attended the post-mortem also ruled out suicide, suggesting he may have been drugged then strangled, the family's lawyer said."

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/25548114/four-israelis-killed-in-jerusalem-synagogue-attack/

When will this madness end..perhaps when Netanyahu stops thowing fuel on the fire accusing Abbas of encouraging this. Netahyahu's incitement score card is not exactly clean over the last few weeks.

As Morch said, Netanyahu is just a salesman who lurches from one crisis to another.

Why don't the Israeli govt simply sit down with PA...no pre conditions about Jewish Sate.. and discuss a final recognized border, security concerns addressed, a deal over Jerusalem, and a compensation package for both Jewish and Palestinian refugees (the world community would gladly pick up the tab)...too easy.

The link provided does not contain the quotes appearing at the beginning of your post.

Regardless, the bus driver's body was found in another area, not the same one as where the attack took place. The story is less straight-forward then can be understood from your post, with the Palestinian pathologist present at the autopsy first concurring with the findings, but later on (after the body was returned to the family for burial) reportedly rejecting them. With the Israelis claiming this change of mind was under pressure and the pathologist himself not being interviewed (at least not that I saw) - hard to tell what's what. As far as I know there was no attempt to conduct a new independent autopsy by the PA.

Serves more as a reminder of how easily rumors, half truths and stories with incomplete details can be spread and be used to fan the flames.

As for the latter part of your post - You first say Netanyahu just lurches from one crisis to the other and then wonder why the Israeli government does not do its best to enter negotiations? Do you really expect Netanyahu to do that? I think it can be safe to say that regardless of what people perceive "Israel"'s position to be (here's a freebie - Israel does not have a unified stand on this), Netanyhu is clearly not all that interested in making painful concessions and taking risks.

Now that this is out of the way - even if Netanyahu was willing, it is not obvious that Abbas can make things work out on the Palestinian end. He's not the most popular leader at the best of times, and better face reality - there's a large portion of the Palestinian public (people often cite Hamas, but it's wider than that, some elements of Fatah as well) are not all for it (and that's putting it mildly). There is simply no overwhelming public support for peace on both sides, no gutsy leaders, and no shortage of extremists ready to derail any chance of things getting better.

[Morch]

Why don't the Israeli govt simply sit down with PA...

Probably because the PA can not make a deal without Hamas, who won't recognize Israel and call for the destruction of Israel and genocide of the Jewish people in their charter, as you well know.

And, to be more accurate, because Netanyahu got no real interest in cutting a deal. Not enough people on both sides are firmly all out for peace, this is reflected in the leadership position of each side. Brings to mind an old quote - "I do not know what the people want, but I do know what they need" - some of that attitude is missing. Previous agreements were signed by leaders who went against the grain. Netanyahu and Abbas act as if they

check opinion polls before they sneeze.

[Ulysses G.]

The killings took place in an ultra orthodox area...

The link provided does not contain the quotes appearing at the beginning of your post.

They hardly ever do. In fact, many of his links directly contradict what he has written. I guess he thinks posting any link from a credible source gives his posts more authority, even though they often have nothing to do with his opinions or actually prove him wrong.

[Morch]

Again these murderers are clearly terrorists. Civilized people get that.

300 years ago British royalists were saying exactly the same thing about the American revolutionaries.

I do believe these strategic actions by the Palestinian freedom fighters will continue--and they will be successful in meeting their goals. Before it's all over a lot of blood is going to be shed, but eventually Netanyahu will be forced out of office and a real peace process can begin. It really is a shame that Netanyahu just can't step down and save the Israeli people from so much heartache.

The horror that the occupiers watched on their TVs a few months ago is now on their doorstep.

300 years are a decent time to forgive and forget. Well, maybe not, considering the religious element.

But we are living in the present, and therefore, lets stick with "murderers", or the bit more respected "terrorists".

Continued use of the word strategic seems to indicate you are not quite clear with regard to its meaning.

Talking about being successful in meeting their goals - What are these goals? How is success measured?

Netanyahu will be "forced"(?) out of office by whom? And why do you assume it would be a pro-peace candidate

that will replace him?

One can't help but feel that your grasp of how this effects the Israeli public isn't quite accurate, or for that mater

that your celebrating of the murders is nothing more than a poor attempt at baiting.

[Morch]

Why don't the Israeli govt simply sit down with PA...

Probably because the PA can not make a deal without Hamas, who won't recognize Israel and call for the destruction of Israel and genocide of the Jewish people in their charter, as you well know.

I don't know why you insist on repeatedly posting this counterfactual information. All this type of post does is increase the questions of credibility.

People know that the unity government announced it was ready to recognize Israel, and then Netanyahu suddenly moved the goalposts.

The Palestinian Unity government did not. Abbas did at the inauguration. Doesn't seem like a big difference, but rather

important for Hamas.

Some posters repeatedly tout the Palestinian Unity government as something it is not. The Palestinian Unity government

is a temporary construct, which has more to do with trying to put the domestic situation of the Palestinians in order. It is

not an elected government, and its term will end once conditions are set to carry out a new general elections. The Unity

government does not, in fact, constitute a true representation of the political map among Palestinians (Hamas got a only

a handful of 2nd/3ed tier representatives as ministers). The responsibility for the peace process and diplomatic relations

in general lies with Abbas.

People may "know" a lot of things. Quite a bit of it is wrong.

[Morch]

It is because they are hypocrites who never allow Islamic terrorists to launch attacks on civilians in their countries.

No, the reasons were in the part of my post you avoided.

Not buying your reasons. That OK?

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Doesn't matter if you "buy" the reasons. There are reasons so many countries have recognized Palestine. It has nothing to do with religion (of Israel or Palestine).. And everything to do with how Israel treats the victims of their occupation.

Nothing at all to do with religion? Sure about that? They are all just morally concerned about the plight of the Palestinians?

No real politik? Just plain humanistic considerations?

I do no think that you are really that naive.

[7by7]

<snip>

I'm sure as you well know the president of Israel does not have genocidal intentions. Hamas does.

There is much in the Hamas Charter with which I strongly disagree; but there is no mention of genocide or anything like it; on the contrary.

Article six.

....Only under the shadow of Islam could the members of all regions coexist in safety and security for their lives, properties and rights.....

Article Thirty-One: The Members of Other Religions The Hamas is a Humane Movement

.....Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security......

I'll grant you that it talks about this religious tolerance existing under Islam, i.e. in an Islamic state; but there is no mention at all of genocide that I could find.

If there is, no doubt you will be quick to find it and quote it here.

[Morch]

The Israelies clearly do not want peace, look what happened when Yitzhak Rabin championed the Oslo peace process, he was assasinated.

Rabin, despite his extensive service in the Israeli Military, was discredited personally by right-wing conservatives and leaders of Likud, who perceived the Oslo peace process as an attempt to forfeit the already occupied territories. Haredi conservatives and the Likud party leaders believed that withdrawing from any "Jewish" land was heresy. Rallies, organized partially by Likud, became increasingly extreme in tone. The then Likud leader (and future Prime Minister) Benjamin Netanyahu accused Rabin's government of being “removed from Jewish tradition ... and Jewish values.” Netanyahu addressed protesters of the Oslo movement at rallies where posters portrayed Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform or being the target in the cross-hairs of a sniper.Rabin accused Netanyahu of provoking violence, a charge which Netanyahu strenuously denied and keeps denying ever since.

What chance is there of peace when this man is still in power?

What a nice generalization.

I suspect that Rabin had some Israelis supporting peace around for him being able to pull it through.

The fact that he was murdered does not "show clearly" that Israelis do not want peace. It may show that there is a large

part of the Israeli public which does not support the notion, for various reasons. Lumping all the Israelis together is just

a false claim.

That Netanyahu is not very likely to lead Israel on the path for peace is a given, not quite sure what the point was.

Then again, it could be worse - Netanyahu is at least relatively easy to pressure compared to some of the right wing

options. And a center/left wing PM wouldn't have enough support to bring home the bacon. Of the current crop not one

commands even a fraction of the respect Rabin got.

Netanyahu's approval rating is low, and yet he keeps getting elected. Why? Because there isn't an attractive enough

candidate to replace him, and because he's very adept at marginalizing those that seem like a political threat. On top

of this, many Israelis simply do not trust the the left wing parties (partly because of reality bursting in their faces, partly

due to the above mentioned demonetization). There's a constant yearning for a strong center party, but these usually

fail to deliver and do not last long.

That said - your one-sided post did not mention the Palestinian public. Going to tell us how their all just bursting with

anticipation to sign a peace deal? Things are rarely as one dimensional as many here portray.

[Morch]

It is not a Jewish country thing, it is an occupying nation brutalizing an occupied nation thing.

Recently you called the "we own it from the river to the sea " as a call for genocide. After the President of Israel said Israel owns the land "from the river to the sea "; you fell silent on the topic.

Because I don't always respond to troll baiting questions and also I don't happen to be the president of Israel. I'm sure as you well know the president of Israel does not have genocidal intentions. Hamas does.

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The president may not have genocidal intentions, but the prime minister certainly does. After all, it's in his party's charter: "from the sea to the River Jordan". It means the same things as "from the river to the sea".

And it's the PM that is in control.

The president was a member of the very same party, which had the same charter.

Netanyahu is actually far less clear on this than one would think. He's mostly trying to avoid being committed to anything.

The current Likud constitution is also vague on this topic.

Netanyau is in control of what? He's heading a shaky coalition government, and its not as if he says one word and the IDF

gets in motion. Israel is many things, but a dictatorship is not one of them.

[Ulysses G.]

I'll grant you that it talks about this religious tolerance existing under Islam, i.e. in an Islamic state; but there is no mention at all of genocide that I could find.

If there is, no doubt you will be quick to find it and quote it here.

You are not looking very hard:

“The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’”

Start spinning.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

Yes he is calling for that, which frame it in your words sounds bad......but more importantly is "why?". He is calling for reaction to crimes of the occupation, and reaction to an execution. He is calling for revenge. (From JT's quote)

From that, I hazard that if Israel didn't occupy, execute, or commit crimes, he'd have nothing to call attacks for.

What execution would that be? The linkage here is to the death of a Palestinian which was ruled as suicide (see my previous

post for a bit more on that). Even if the claim that this was murder and not a suicide is proven true - it is not an "execution" by

Israel. What we have here is the Hamas trying to keep itself relevant and in the headlines, by fanning the flames.

You can hazard whatever you like, the Hamas definition of "occupation" does not stop at the 1967 borders.

Conjuring reasons for violence was never a problem in the Middle East.

"execution" was not my word, but quoted from JT's link. My post was in response to JT's claim of Hamas calling for more terror attacks, which was paraphrasing what Hams called for, it was JT's interpretation of the Hamas chap's words. I didn't (and don't) necessarily dispute that interpretation, but I did want to make clear that Hamas sees it as reaction, and from that I suggested, quite logically, that if there was nothing to react to, there could be no call for reaction.

Please recall I called the killers terrorists in my first post on this thread. I made no excuses or apologies for them.

I need to make a correction to your assertion that Hamas' definition of occupation does not stop at '67 borders. "Some hardliners within Hamas" would be more accurate. It's not accurate to say otherwise. This is not my opinion but on public record and accepted by most of the international players.

Yes, Hamas does need to try to keep itself relevant. I think they see the writing on the wall: If peace is struck between Fatah and Israel, Hamas will be seen for what they are by the ordinary Palestinians who just want peace but support Hamas because Hamas are resisting the occupation and the oppression. If peace brings about a cessation of occupation and oppression, Hamas becomes irrelevant.

Once the majority of people see that the extremists from both sides are conjurers (pulling reasons for violence out of a hat), I think we can be more optimistic.

The way I read it, execution was Hamas's choice of words, and it seemed like you chose to accept their premises when

you posted "if Israel didn't occupy, execute....". Bad phrasing?

That there is no clear evidence that the man in question was murdered, nor that Israelis were involved would not matter

much for Hamas. There's a rumor doing the runs, they'll use it. I have no idea if the attack on the synagogue had much

to do with Hamas, they could just as well be taking credit after the event.

You may attempt to enlighten me as to Hamas accepting the 1967 lines as a final border (if not here, could be deemed

OT, then a PM would be welcome). As this sort of claims been coming up pretty regularly on TVF, and are debunked

just as regularly, I find it very hard to believe something changed on this front. Accepted by most of the national players?

Hardliners within Hamas, you say? Well, who are the supposed moderates? This should be fun....

Your last paragraph paints a very nice picture. It is a pity non of it is real. There is no way that a peace will be brokered

quickly and implemented without incidents. The conditions of the average Palestinian will not necessarily change for the

best overnight, for many it would represent an economic hardship, not the other way around. The Fatah-Hamas split got

more dimensions than the conflict with Israel - corruption, religion and local level politics play all play a major part.

Wishing Hamas away will not actually make it go away.

[Jingthing]

Game.

Set.

Match.

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[Morch]

Kerry: Israel Synagogue Attack 'Pure Terror'

Exactly. A civilized man who knows the score.

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Wonders will never cease....wasn't he an out of touch bleeding heart just a few months ago, when he criticized Israel?

I don't imply you called him that, at least I don't think so, but funny how perceptions change.

[Morch]

From the report,Netanyahu has vowed "to respond with a heavy hand to the deadliest attack in 6 years".

4 dead is the deadliest attack in SIX years?

I have grave fears. Netanyahu killed nearly 2000 in revenge for 3. What's he going to do "heavy handedly" for 4?

Hopefully it is only this weasely politician's rhetoric.

Instead of revenge, Netanyahu, why not look to the future and put an end to this now? Go to the peace table and sincerely find a way. Hamas has shown that no matter what you do, they will retaliate. If you really care about your citizens, don't give them more blood, give them peace. Do it the right way, with Abbas, and Hamas will lose their support in droves...a double bonus for Israel and Palestine.

Netanyahu vows with the best of Thai politicians.

For example, since the recent flare up, he talked mightily about demolishing houses of terrorists etc. - in reality, none were.

The assertion that the IDF operation in Gaza was in revenge of the 3 Israelis murdered, is your interpretation - and quite a

simplistic one, at that. The following equation is, therefore, groundless. Interestingly, you do not seem to be weary of the

Hamas fanning the flames as well, that's somehow acceptable, for some reason.

So discarding the revenge thing (which I don't think was brought up), Netanyahu is Netanyahu. No reason to expect him to

do anything bold. Despite the optimism displayed regarding the success chances of peace negotiations - it is far from being

that simple even if there was a will from both sides (and there isn't). Both Netanyahu and Abbas currently face rough times

as far as domestic politics go, both need to walk a tightrope regarding popular support and political partners.

The notion that Hamas will lose its popularity among Palestinians overnight is a fantasy. For one thing, negotiations will be

lengthy, with a lot of hurdles and setbacks. Overall situation will not necessarily improve quickly, and there will be ample

opportunities for elements on both sides to derail things.

" is your interpretation - and quite a simplistic one, at that. The following equation is, therefore, groundless. ".

Sorry Morch, but that is a fallacious conclusion. Just because it is my opinion and simplistic does not make it untrue, therefore you can not discard "the following equation" based on those two things alone.

The notion that Hamas will lose it's popularity is not fantasy. I prefer optimistic. It is within the realms of possibility, and it is a desired result for everyone. I'll even go so far as to suggest that if everyone aimed for that goal, it would work, and work in everyone's favour....Everyone that is except the extreme right from either side.

Well, if you claim that the reason (or main reason) for the Gaza fighting was Netanyau seeking vengeance, then I'll have

to insist that this is both simplified and incorrect. There were quite a few more concrete reasons for how things panned

out, most of them were reviewed by detail at the time on the various TVF topics. There is not one area of conflict to do

with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its various manifestations that can be attributed to a single reason. Going this way

makes life easier, but clouds perception.

You want to be optimistic, go ahead. Nothing wrong with that. Just make sure between what is probable and what's merely

a slim possibility (if that). When you say that the Hamas losing its popularity being the desired result by everyone - does it

include Hamas supporters? Hamas personnel? Conservative estimates give Hamas about 50% support, this is not only due

to their stance against Israel, but also because the Fatah is seen as inefficient, fossilized and corrupt. It does not matter if we

like it or not, Hamas got a very broad support base, and it would take more than optimism to dent it. The thing to remember

is that what with IS on the horizon, Hamas might lose support, but not necessarily for the Fatah.

It is almost predictable what the Hamas pitch will be if an agreement is reached - We Did It. And what's more, it has a good

chance of taking root.

[Morch]

 

This one seems very clear cut.

Nothing mysterious here.

Another terrorist attack specifically targeting innocent Jewish people just for being Jews.

They are happening in Israel.

They are happening in Europe, they are even happening even in the USA, and other parts of the world.

More evidence that the Jewish people really do need the power of a state (Israel) to combat this irrational disease of the Jew haters (thousands of years of this madness already).

Somewhat ironically, it's clear to me that the recent global wave of antisemitism (often thinly disguised as "anti-Zionism" and sometimes not disguised at all) is actually strengthening Zionist feeling among global Jews.

Left wing, moderate, and right right wing, global Jews are massively unified in support of the right of Israel to exist and defend herself against those who openly are working towards her destruction.

Like the PM of Palestine, I condem this violence.

If I were a shallow man. I would point use the arguments used by those that are hell bent on denying freedom to the Palestinians. That the actions of Israel caused this. That the violence of Israel caused this.

I don't believe that to be a justification for these murders any more than I think that 5 deaths justify killing 1000's or denying a people their freedom.

Israel must look at its actions surrounding holy places of non Jews.

It will cause reactions, regardless of how evil or cruel those actions are.

The old liberal canard..

'Don't offend the muslims and they will behave'

No they won't.

...and Israel has shown a lot of respect/restraint regarding the temple mount issue.

Despite being the victors they allow the muslims sole proprietorship of the site.

Where themselves worship at the western wall outside the compound and regularly get pelted with stones from above.

 

All PMs and all Presidents can say what is necessary to say. Words will change nothing.

If those terrorists knew that not only they will die (as martyrs) but their next of kin, their close and distant relatives and friends will die too - the Terrorism would stop.

Their friends, next of kin etc. would stop them or/and report them to authorities.

It works. I have seen it working. It is the only effective way of dealing with Terrorist concept.

But for this we must dispose of 'Political Correctness' which so far is West's weakness and terrorists strength.

BTW this applies not only to Israel, but ANY country, including very Buddhist ones.

Policy called ten for one is producing marvels.

Curious as to where you saw this "work".

I know I wouldn't want to live in a country exercising such barbaric means.

This is not about political correctness, it is about remaining human.

[Morch]

ABCer, your answer seems to be the same as Israel's and it is illegal and immoral.

It has also been proven to fail. Decades of collective punishment later and Palestine is still fighting the country occupying them.

Israel does not execute the relatives of terrorists, why hyperbole?

Before you go there - Israel does employ some means which constitute collective punishment, but nothing as severe as

ABCer portrayed. And yes, family members sometimes get killed in attacks on terrorists - not quite the same thing.

House demolitions (referring to those as it's more OT) do not seem to be very effective in deterring terrorists, and as a

result, starting to lose their appeal as appeasement of voters. On the other hand, Israeli Supreme Court intervention

made most demolitions a more complicated affair, and nowadays, some of them are sheer idiocy - like destroying an

attached room, rather than the whole house - obviously less of a deterrent, still pisses off the locals and the right wing

voters.

[bigjules007]

This attack is just another one against Israel and Jews perpetrated by Muslims for over 60 years who cannot accept the state of Israel. Why? because Islam is a divisive and violent religion that calls for the conversion or elimination of all unbelievers. Islam is the greatest threat to peace and stability in the world today.

So the Christians never had missionaries converting there colonies?

I think that history tells us that Christianity is a lot more of a violent religion then Islam. And they account for millions more deaths in the name of religion then Islam ever did. As I've said on numerous occasions the west and Israel have done a splendid job in demonising Islam to the point of normal every day people now being scared of Muslim's.

Israel and some of there supporters continuously demonise muslims and there "terrorist" acts so that the herds are kept in a constant state of fear therefore allowing the governments to act as they wish.

As I've previously stated this boy, was shot to provoke the Palestinians, and its exactly what it did, The Palestinians retaliated and then Israel go to war slaughtering innocent civilians.

This conflict can not end while the likes of Netanyahu is in power.

[Morch]

Sadly nothing will change. Netanyahu has already threatened disproportionate reprisals meaning the situation will escalate with more deaths on both sides.

Israel achieves nothing in fuelling the circle of violence.

Oh, Israel is fanning the flames?

I seem to recall a lot of fiery rhetoric regarding a war to save Al-Aqsa (AKA Temple Mount) from many Palestinian leaders

over the last few weeks. Not that there was a real issue there, but still good to rally the people every now and then.

Why the insistence to view the conflict as a totally one sided affair?

The OP is about Israelis being killed by Palestinians. Do you think that this violent act does not fuel the "circle of violence"?

Do you imagine it achieves something?

[Morch]

The Palestinians do not want a two state solution!

They want it all.

That is completely untrue.

You are most certainly entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

The unity government was ready and willing but Israel suddenly moved the goalposts.

Repeating incorrect information will not make it true.

The Unity government is not in charge of anything pertaining to dealing with Israel on this level. Abbas kept that one for

himself. The Unity government's main task is to sort domestic affairs, try to bridge rifts and prepare the way for a general

elections (the Unity government itself is appointed, not elected, and does not reflect the distribution of political support

among Palestinians).

[Jingthing]

It achieved something. It will make USA support of Israel ever stronger. Europeans may not care and are rushing to give "recognition" to a Palestinian state which includes terror organization Hamas but American are different, chopping up scholarly rabbis within Israel, especially American rabbis, and attention will be paid.

It also achieved many Palestinians dancing in the streets, some waving AXES, celebrating a sick blood lust and not to forget candy sales there are UP, UP, UP.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[Morch]

Great so we agree it is not a functional state. Ignoring your obligatory and predictable toxic assertions that all the blame is on Israel as unworthy of response.

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Yes, Israel is to blame for the State of Palestine not being functional.

It is an occupying nation brutalizing an occupied people.

Without detracting from Israel's responsibility -

Nothing to do with the Palestinians themselves, then?

The rampant corruption (both Fatah and Hamas), the Fatah-Hamas split, the Palestinian leadership not being brave enough

to take hard decisions - these have nothing to do with them?

Edited November 19, 2014 by Morch

[Jay Sata]

It achieved something. It will make USA support of Israel ever stronger. Europeans may not care and are rushing to give "recognition" to a Palestinian state which includes terror organization Hamas but American are different, chopping up scholarly rabbis within Israel, especially American rabbis, and attention will be paid.

It also achieved many Palestinians dancing in the streets, some waving AXES, celebrating a sick blood lust and not to forget candy sales there are UP, UP, UP.

You seem to forget the average American does not really care about the rest of the world or it's problems let alone know the complexity of the Middle East and it's people.

What the US does have is a very small but powerful Jewish American lobby.

However back to the topic and rest assured that all we will see over the coming months is a repeat of the never ending circle of violence and killing.

What Israel needs is a decent centrist government instead of the right wingers who foment trouble.

Look back at what happened when Sharon visited the Temple Mount and through his actions caused the deaths of many in the name of religion.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Morch]

BTW, I don't think I am demonizing anything here. I am stating a truthful position, that until Israel is on board, given Israel's importance in the region, asserting the existence of a Palestinian state as an actual functioning entity is a political FICTION.

Of course you don't think you're "demonizing anything" and think what you are stating "a truthful position". You are giving you opinion based on how you perceive things---that's how this works. Keep that in mind that next 100 times you tell others they are demonizing Israel.

And by the way, Israel's "importance in the region" is decreasing daily. Palestinian statehood is moving forward with or without it. If Israel doesn't start accepting reality soon, it may very well find itself on the scrapheap of history.

That's nice dear,

Now calm down and explain how exactly, in practical terms, would the Palestinians be able to ignore Israel on their quest

for independence, Big words mean very little when one needs to deal with the real world.

[up-country_sinclair]

The Palestinians do not want a two state solution!

They want it all.

That is completely untrue.

You are most certainly entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

The unity government was ready and willing but Israel suddenly moved the goalposts.

Repeating incorrect information will not make it true.

The Unity government is not in charge of anything pertaining to dealing with Israel on this level. Abbas kept that one for

himself. The Unity government's main task is to sort domestic affairs, try to bridge rifts and prepare the way for a general

elections (the Unity government itself is appointed, not elected, and does not reflect the distribution of political support

among Palestinians).

Implying that posters wrote something they didn't write, does not mean they actually wrote it.

I didn't write that the Unity government was "in charge of anything pertaining to Israel on this level". What I did write is that the Unity government (including Hamas) was "ready and willing" to move towards a two state solution. So while it's true that only the PLO would be at the negotiating table, without Hamas on board, there would be no chance of getting to the next step. And they were on board.

Then Netanyahu moved the goalposts--a fact you conveniently neglected to address in your post.

[bigjules007]

The Palestinians do not want a two state solution!

They want it all.

That is completely untrue.

You are most certainly entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

The unity government was ready and willing but Israel suddenly moved the goalposts.

Repeating incorrect information will not make it true.

The Unity government is not in charge of anything pertaining to dealing with Israel on this level. Abbas kept that one for

himself. The Unity government's main task is to sort domestic affairs, try to bridge rifts and prepare the way for a general

elections (the Unity government itself is appointed, not elected, and does not reflect the distribution of political support

among Palestinians).

Implying that posters wrote something they didn't write, does not mean they actually wrote it.

I didn't write that the Unity government was "in charge of anything pertaining to Israel on this level". What I did write is that the Unity government (including Hamas) was "ready and willing" to move towards a two state solution. So while it's true that only the PLO would be at the negotiating table, without Hamas on board, there would be no chance of getting to the next step. And they were on board.

Then Netanyahu moved the goalposts--a fact you conveniently neglected to address in your post.

Its called Pro Israeli selective memory syndrome.

This is normally a pre cursor to being totally ignored.

[Morch]

Oh? Does that include the 45 UNHRC finding? Almost as many as issued to the rest of the world combined? First one only 8 years ago.

Grasping at straws now?

But, I am worried by its disproportionate focus on violations by Israel. Not that Israel should be given a free pass. Absolutely not. But the Council should give the same attention to grave violations committed by other States as well.

http://www.un.org/press/en/2006/sgsm10788.doc.htm

For further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#Israel