Oil prices plunge after Opec meeting

[Asiantravel]

If the USGovernment is in fact presently approximating 1 billion oz of gold and it revalues the dollar to $3000 oz, which is the scuttlebut in circulation, then its gold reserves will be valued at $3 Trillion, or half of the public sector debt which is the real debt factor. Your Roman Empire would then be newly secured, but the Roman Empire the US is not because history is history, which means we have electricity to name one modern invention and development the Empire did not have.

While revaluation based on gold is not the gold standard, it does provide a concrete basis of a currency and of debt to include stealing the thunder from cranks who keep cheering on their apocalypse and it pulls the rug out from under them besides.

I discussed the analogy of the shale producers and the auto manufacturers of a hundred years ago which some people here seem to have missed or chosen to ignore due to its inconvenience to their flawed theories and paradigm. That is, regardless of the price of oil or energy in general, a number of startup shale ventures will inevitably go bust, which is to say most of them. It's the natural order of things. Do try to keep up on these things thx.

Is that a serious question?

With the same money it used to bail out the 'too big to fail' banks. Same source as the UK bank bailout for that matter.

Foisting debt on the populace is a given right of government regardless of the political doctrine in play. What one hand giveth, the other hand taketh away. Obama and the EU talking heads make very public 'We feel your pain' statements as they plunder your wallet. Putin just mugs you in broad daylight and takes the whole wallet.

Do not know if to laugh or cry at your ignorance.

Putin "mugs" flat 15% personal tax, remind me again how much tax is charged for US or UK citizens?

And you do realize baling out an oil company with this kind of prices will take a little more than a few days money printing.

Bu then again, whats another trillion? after all no one has any intentions to repay it.

Half of Americans pay no personal income tax, which is a feat and a luxury Russia cannot afford and which moreover would never occur to the Russian oligarchs to be a good public policy.

As i mentioned again above, no bailing out will be necessary, desired or acceptable. A good number of the shale startups are destined to fail and everyone from the shale industry to students in school know it. But not everyone in the world knows the fact however, which is not the fault of the US nor is it our responsibility to rectify. .

I agree with you that there will soon be a reset in the price of gold and silver, but I do not believe the US will benefit from it... To benefit from the reset, you must first be holding the commodity...

The same scuttlebutt and analysis from investors such as Eric Sprott state that the US no longer has gold reserves of any significance, sans the 6,000+ tonnes held at the Fed in NYC, which doesn't belong to the Fed, but is re-hypothecated "synthetic" gold belonging to others, such as Germany... The Dutch just withdrew 122 tonnes from the Fed, yet the Germans eventually gave up having their bullion repatriated... Now the French as making noise that they want their gold back too, ironically much like they did in 1971... The US cannot benefit from the reset in gold prices because it is the western banking cabal suppressing the price in the first place...

As per Sprott, global gold demand has exceeded supply for the last decade while the Comex and JPM manipulate the markets lower with naked paper shorts... This is to drive out the weak hands and to free up supply at lower prices because they know if anyone demands delivery on a sizable futures contract then the game is over... Some are predicting this event as early as next month in the silver market...

The reset in gold and silver is already taking place in the east and is de-coupling from the paper market by the west... India just lifted all importation regulations on gold also, only exacerbating supplies...

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/11/28/india-gold-imports-idINKCN0JC1GY20141128

[Publicus]

People of the Austrian school of apocalyptic economics who want to believe the United States and Europe are suicidal, i.e., sitting around doing nothing, or that the US and European elites of government, finance, economics are just plain stupid, instead reveal much about themselves.

The Mad Max syndrome people who want Beijing and Moscow to dominate if not control the world are in for the same shock and shocker other followers of ruthless and deranged dictators experienced.

The world is very likely headed for a Global Great Depression but the outcome of it will be the opposite of that which the Austrian school rightists with their disciples here and elsewhere foresee. The dollar, the capital markets of the United States will remain intact and in their present position. The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

[Asiantravel]

In the months prior to the last stock market collapse, the price of oil began plummeting dramatically in the summer of 2008. This was an “early warning signal” that something was deeply amiss in the financial world…

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/just-witness-last-great-black-friday-celebration-american-materialism

Edited November 30, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Asiantravel]

People of the Austrian school of apocalyptic economics who want to believe the United States and Europe are suicidal, i.e., sitting around doing nothing, or that the US and European elites of government, finance, economics are just plain stupid, instead reveal much about themselves.

The Mad Max syndrome people who want Beijing and Moscow to dominate if not control the world are in for the same shock and shocker other followers of ruthless and deranged dictators experienced.

The world is very likely headed for a Global Great Depression but the outcome of it will be the opposite of that which the Austrian school rightists with their disciples here and elsewhere foresee. The dollar, the capital markets of the United States will remain intact and in their present position. The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

" The dollar, the capital markets of the United States will remain intact and in their present position"

no more blue pills for you!

[Anthony5]

The reality is, it does not matter if oil is $30 or $120 a barrell. US will be fine, but I sure do like the lower costs. Will increase profits, dividends and reduce CPI. All good for me. You guys can try and find the negative in anything and it is a bit laughable, laughifble in US laughing all the way to the bank. Give it up. Move on. Focus on yourself. US ain't going down the tubes.

US laughing all the way to the bank.

I thought bank in the US is a substitute for a big very deep hole.

[VegasVic]

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This is killing Russia and it's deliberate. The US and Saudi are pumping all-out to drive the price down.

The world oil price is 1/2 what it was in 2009, and as recently as five months ago it was $106. Now it's $70.

Putin depends on oil to run his economy but neither the US or Saudi will be damaged by this.

This is "get even" for Syria and Ukraine without firing a shot.

The big mouth in Russia who thought oil riches would allow him to put the USSR back together by force if necessary has been cut off at the knees.

Be careful this maybe aimed at sinking the US fracking industry. If you read outside of the msm you will know that in most fracking oil plays the production of the wells are falling much faster than projected. This means that the frackers must frack more and drill more wells which is capital intensive. When the oil price falls below $ 70 they will not be able to generate enough cash to maintain the capex and their production will slowly fade away, together with the American oil independence dream.

Here is an article about the effects of the low oil price.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-27/there-will-be-blood-petrodollar-death-means-liquidity-and-oil-exporting-crisis-deck

.

HH, NeverSure is correct, the fall in the price in oil is indeed orchestrated by the U.S. (with the help of the House of Saud and others) in order to put more pressure on Putin alt=thumbsup.gif> It seems to be working rather nicely, however they had better be careful just how far they push Vlad the imapaler since it is looking like a verrrry cold winter brewing for Russia I realize that the business channels say publicly that the fracking business cannot sustain a drop below $70/bbl, however knowing people in this business both in the Marcellus and Bakken Shale fields I can tell you that they still make a profit under $70/bbl. Wish as you might, but the U.S. will be a net exporter of petroleum products within the next 5 years and should a Republican get back in the White House in 2016 (very likely) then the west side of the Rockies will be wide open for development as well as the Arctic wildlife refuge and more offshore permits too alt=thumbsup.gif> The estimates of U.S. petroleum reserves rise every year as more potential fields open and technology improves, currently the estimates are for a 200 year reserve excluding coal, when coal is figured in you double that estimate! This drop in oil price will not last forever so enjoy it while you can, and if you are smart then you can make some very nice coin on the bounce back alt=wai2.gif width=20 height=20>

The drop in oil prices are way over Obama's head. With new oil owners in South Sudan as well as the Saudis being able to produce oil at $30, there are big players involved. America, with all its natural resources, is not the biggest player in this game.

To be quite honest most things are "over Obamas head" ( ) , that aside, it is not the U.S.'s petroleum production capability that allows them to control (at times) the cost of oil and other commodities, it is a combination of the U.S.'s Economic might (including Wall St banksters), military might and the vested interest of the other participating countries FYI the Saudis production costs are well under $30/bbl, but the Saudis know that they have a finite amount of oil left in the ground and they do not want to give the rest of it away! The Saudis on the other hand do have an interest in keeping Vlad the impaler in check, given that Russia has made their part of the world verrrry verrry dangerous with their SPECIAL relationships with Iran and Syria

[HUAHIN62]

F430murci:"The reality is, it does not matter if oil is $30 or $120 a barrell. US will be fine, but I sure do like the lower costs. Will increase profits, dividends and reduce CPI. All good for me. You guys can try and find the negative in anything and it is a bit laughable, laughifble in US laughing all the way to the bank. Give it up. Move on. Focus on yourself. US ain't going down the tubes."

No empire have lasted for ever and none will. So enjoy the ride while it lasts. The fracking will reach peak production by 2020 and will decline thereafter, get used to the fact that most Americans only believe what they see on TV and do little research to verify facts. The effects of fracking will be devastating to the US enviroment. Hundreds of Americans have received pollution/health related payouts from frackers but with gag orders attached. You are killing yourself in the US and your future generations will hate this generation thats allowing their country to be raped. Greed destroys it doesnt create. Here is some articles:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-17/3-billion-gallons-fracking-wastewater-pumped-clean-california-aquifiers-errors-were-

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-29/study-finds-treated-fracking-wastewater-still-too-toxic

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-25/fracked-dont-believe-miracles

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-10/fracking-enters-bear-market-question-emerges-shale-boom-built-sea-lies

[HUAHIN62]

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So in the usual Publicus patriotic words America knows best and is best.

Hence the reason for being in the largest debt in the world with no prospect of ever repaying it and printing money like lottery tickets and all of that backed with nothing but patriotic bravada.

Reminds me of Roman Empire, funny how history has a way of repeating itself.

The US has less debt as a ratio to GDP than the UK does.

It has far less than Japan or China do.

The US has vast natural resources to draw on.

What does the UK or Japan or China have?

-debt service cannot be done with fictitious GDP numbers,

-to service debt revenue is required,

-the U.S. has clearly not the revenue to match its debt service.

evidence for the latter is the ballooning sovereign debt.

i apologise for replacing fiction with facts alt=wai2.gif width=20 height=20>

You are both correct, GDP to Debt ratio does matter and it is an internationally accepted way to see which countries are in the worst condition, of course with that said the debt must reduced in the U.S. and will through a new wave a fiscal conservatisim and becoming a net exporter of energy over the next few years Like it or not the worlds two military superpowers (U.S. A. and the Russian Federation) ironically have the worlds largest petroleum resources and freshwater supplies, while the Russian Federation is not an economic superpower like the U.S. it can be self sufficient if need be, although any large crop failure could make it tough for Russia

The difference is the Russians can take pain the US cant.

Edited November 30, 2014 by HUAHIN62

[VegasVic]

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In the months prior to the last stock market collapse, the price of oil began plummeting dramatically in the summer of 2008. This was an “early warning signal” that something was deeply amiss in the financial world…

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/just-witness-last-great-black-friday-celebration-american-materialism

Yes and No, the price of oil only rose to $150/bbl due to manipulation of the markets by GS and others but mostly by GS, so the "plummeting" as you put it was from a massively inflated artificial level This time around the demand for oil has not dropped so I doubt we see $40/bbl, however it will be interesting to see if $70/bbl gets challenged, that would really cause Vlad some serious pain this winter

[NeverSure]

So in the usual Publicus patriotic words America knows best and is best.

Hence the reason for being in the largest debt in the world with no prospect of ever repaying it and printing money like lottery tickets and all of that backed with nothing but patriotic bravada.

Reminds me of Roman Empire, funny how history has a way of repeating itself.

The US has less debt as a ratio to GDP than the UK does.

It has far less than Japan or China do.

The US has vast natural resources to draw on.

What does the UK or Japan or China have?

-debt service cannot be done with fictitious GDP numbers,

-to service debt revenue is required,

-the U.S. has clearly not the revenue to match its debt service.

evidence for the latter is the ballooning sovereign debt.

i apologise for replacing fiction with facts

You replaced nothing because you didn't acknowledge the point.

The US has less debt to GDP ratio than the UK which can't service its debt.

I was taking a shot at those who always take shots at the "US Debt" when theirs is worse. They are the pot calling the kettle black. That's all.

[VegasVic]

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You are both correct, GDP to Debt ratio does matter and it is an internationally accepted way to see which countries are in the worst condition, of course with that said the debt must reduced in the U.S. and will through a new wave a fiscal conservatisim and becoming a net exporter of energy over the next few years alt=thumbsup.gif> Like it or not the worlds two military superpowers (U.S. A. and the Russian Federation) ironically have the worlds largest petroleum resources and freshwater supplies, while the Russian Federation is not an economic superpower like the U.S. it can be self sufficient if need be, although any large crop failure could make it tough for Russia

-debt service cannot be done with fictitious GDP numbers,

-to service debt revenue is required,

-the U.S. has clearly not the revenue to match its debt service.

evidence for the latter is the ballooning sovereign debt.

i apologise for replacing fiction with facts alt=wai2.gif width=20 height=20>

The difference is the Russians can take pain the US cant.

HH, You are likely correct about that on many different levels my friend, however given the strength of the U.S. economy vis a vis the rest of the world and the fact that the U.S. produces such an abundance of food, even if there were a bad crop year the U.S. could feed its citizens very well If you are a Russian national I mean no offense by any of my posts, as a matter of fact I can sort of empathize with Vlad given what has happened to Russia over the past 25 years

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed. The topic is about Opec and oil prices.

[lannarebirth]

So in the usual Publicus patriotic words America knows best and is best.

Hence the reason for being in the largest debt in the world with no prospect of ever repaying it and printing money like lottery tickets and all of that backed with nothing but patriotic bravada.

Reminds me of Roman Empire, funny how history has a way of repeating itself.

The US has less debt as a ratio to GDP than the UK does.

It has far less than Japan or China do.

The US has vast natural resources to draw on.

What does the UK or Japan or China have?

-debt service cannot be done with fictitious GDP numbers,

-to service debt revenue is required,

-the U.S. has clearly not the revenue to match its debt service.

evidence for the latter is the ballooning sovereign debt.

i apologise for replacing fiction with facts

You replaced nothing because you didn't acknowledge the point.

The US has less debt to GDP ratio than the UK which can't service its debt.

I was taking a shot at those who always take shots at the "US Debt" when theirs is worse. They are the pot calling the kettle black. That's all.

I think you're missing Herr Naam's point. Even if GDP were reported accurately, which it is not, it is an extremely poor substitute for actual revenues. Why the constant discussion about a measure that is effectively meaningless when real debt can only be reduced by real revenues?

[Loptr]

People of the Austrian school of apocalyptic economics who want to believe the United States and Europe are suicidal, i.e., sitting around doing nothing, or that the US and European elites of government, finance, economics are just plain stupid, instead reveal much about themselves.

The Mad Max syndrome people who want Beijing and Moscow to dominate if not control the world are in for the same shock and shocker other followers of ruthless and deranged dictators experienced.

The world is very likely headed for a Global Great Depression but the outcome of it will be the opposite of that which the Austrian school rightists with their disciples here and elsewhere foresee. The dollar, the capital markets of the United States will remain intact and in their present position. The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

It's not a matter of want, it's a matter of fact... The only statistic that really matters is external debt... Russia and China have zero external debt... The USA, EU and UK, not so lucky...

The only ones that are crazy are Keynesians, believing that economies of the world can be based on debt growth and fiat currencies backed by the "good faith" of the issuer... When you consider that every fiat currency ever created in the history of mankind has failed and that EVERY currency in circulation today is a fiat currency, then who is crazy?

[Asiantravel]

People of the Austrian school of apocalyptic economics who want to believe the United States and Europe are suicidal, i.e., sitting around doing nothing, or that the US and European elites of government, finance, economics are just plain stupid, instead reveal much about themselves.

The Mad Max syndrome people who want Beijing and Moscow to dominate if not control the world are in for the same shock and shocker other followers of ruthless and deranged dictators experienced.

The world is very likely headed for a Global Great Depression but the outcome of it will be the opposite of that which the Austrian school rightists with their disciples here and elsewhere foresee. The dollar, the capital markets of the United States will remain intact and in their present position. The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

It's not a matter of want, it's a matter of fact... The only statistic that really matters is external debt... Russia and China have zero external debt... The USA, EU and UK, not so lucky...

The only ones that are crazy are Keynesians, believing that economies of the world can be based on debt growth and fiat currencies backed by the "good faith" of the issuer... When you consider that every fiat currency ever created in the history of mankind has failed and that EVERY currency in circulation today is a fiat currency, then who is crazy?

"It's not a matter of want, it's a matter of fact... The only statistic that really matters is external debt... Russia and China have zero external debt... The USA, EU and UK, not so lucky..."

[VegasVic]

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People of the Austrian school of apocalyptic economics who want to believe the United States and Europe are suicidal, i.e., sitting around doing nothing, or that the US and European elites of government, finance, economics are just plain stupid, instead reveal much about themselves.

The Mad Max syndrome people who want Beijing and Moscow to dominate if not control the world are in for the same shock and shocker other followers of ruthless and deranged dictators experienced.

The world is very likely headed for a Global Great Depression but the outcome of it will be the opposite of that which the Austrian school rightists with their disciples here and elsewhere foresee. The dollar, the capital markets of the United States will remain intact and in their present position. The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

It's not a matter of want, it's a matter of fact... The only statistic that really matters is external debt... Russia and China have zero external debt... The USA, EU and UK, not so lucky...

The only ones that are crazy are Keynesians, believing that economies of the world can be based on debt growth and fiat currencies backed by the "good faith" of the issuer... When you consider that every fiat currency ever created in the history of mankind has failed and that EVERY currency in circulation today is a fiat currency, then who is crazy?

I'm not sure who is crazy, but if all fiat currencies were to fall by the wayside tomorrow, then the U.S. has around $18 trillion dollars of debt that suddenly vanishes There is and old saying that goes something like this "be very careful what you wish for young man (lady), for you may very well get it" As I have mentioned many times before on threads like this on TV, there are only a few countries in the world who can be truly self sufficient and cut off from the outside world and the U.S. is one of them. Just some food for thought

[konying]

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People of the Austrian school of apocalyptic economics who want to believe the United States and Europe are suicidal, i.e., sitting around doing nothing, or that the US and European elites of government, finance, economics are just plain stupid, instead reveal much about themselves.

The Mad Max syndrome people who want Beijing and Moscow to dominate if not control the world are in for the same shock and shocker other followers of ruthless and deranged dictators experienced.

The world is very likely headed for a Global Great Depression but the outcome of it will be the opposite of that which the Austrian school rightists with their disciples here and elsewhere foresee. The dollar, the capital markets of the United States will remain intact and in their present position. The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

It's not a matter of want, it's a matter of fact... The only statistic that really matters is external debt... Russia and China have zero external debt... The USA, EU and UK, not so lucky...

The only ones that are crazy are Keynesians, believing that economies of the world can be based on debt growth and fiat currencies backed by the "good faith" of the issuer... When you consider that every fiat currency ever created in the history of mankind has failed and that EVERY currency in circulation today is a fiat currency, then who is crazy?

I'm not sure who is crazy, but if all fiat currencies were to fall by the wayside tomorrow, then the U.S. has around $18 trillion dollars of debt that suddenly vanishes There is and old saying that goes something like this "be very careful what you wish for young man (lady), for you may very well get it" As I have mentioned many times before on threads like this on TV, there are only a few countries in the world who can be truly self sufficient and cut off from the outside world and the U.S. is one of them. Just some food for thought

Wishful thinking.

US ego would get in a way of being cut off and surviving.

I can not think of single empire throughout the history which did not come down crashing

[F430murci]

In the months prior to the last stock market collapse, the price of oil began plummeting dramatically in the summer of 2008. This was an early warning signal that something was deeply amiss in the financial world

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/just-witness-last-great-black-friday-celebration-american-materialism

Haha, dude you have repeatedly demonstrated your a dumb arrrsssee.. Nothing new.

[Publicus]

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People of the Austrian school of apocalyptic economics who want to believe the United States and Europe are suicidal, i.e., sitting around doing nothing, or that the US and European elites of government, finance, economics are just plain stupid, instead reveal much about themselves.

The Mad Max syndrome people who want Beijing and Moscow to dominate if not control the world are in for the same shock and shocker other followers of ruthless and deranged dictators experienced.

The world is very likely headed for a Global Great Depression but the outcome of it will be the opposite of that which the Austrian school rightists with their disciples here and elsewhere foresee. The dollar, the capital markets of the United States will remain intact and in their present position. The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

It's not a matter of want, it's a matter of fact... The only statistic that really matters is external debt... Russia and China have zero external debt... The USA, EU and UK, not so lucky...

The only ones that are crazy are Keynesians, believing that economies of the world can be based on debt growth and fiat currencies backed by the "good faith" of the issuer... When you consider that every fiat currency ever created in the history of mankind has failed and that EVERY currency in circulation today is a fiat currency, then who is crazy?

I'm not sure who is crazy, but if all fiat currencies were to fall by the wayside tomorrow, then the U.S. has around $18 trillion dollars of debt that suddenly vanishes There is and old saying that goes something like this "be very careful what you wish for young man (lady), for you may very well get it" As I have mentioned many times before on threads like this on TV, there are only a few countries in the world who can be truly self sufficient and cut off from the outside world and the U.S. is one of them. Just some food for thought

Wishful thinking.

US ego would get in a way of being cut off and surviving.

I can not think of single empire throughout the history which did not come down crashing

You are referring to the Soviet Russian empire that came crashing down of its own dead weight in 1991 as the last empire of history.

The United States is not an empire and and there is no present empire, nor has their been an empire since the collapse of the Soviet Russian one that existed from 1945 - 1991 in Eurasia across and out to the Pacific. Remember Ronald Reagan and his "evil empire." That cut very close to the Soviet Russian bone.

You are another one living in your own fantasy world. The fact is when national currencies collapse the US dollar will not collapse. It will be the haven of everyone else, as much because gold and other precious metals are not practical not to mention insufficient in volume and by a long measure insufficient in volume.

I've pointed out many times there isn't enough gold in the universe to cover the $100 Trillion global GDP. After all, if God had that much gold he'd be a happy man.

In contrast, the Austrian school people such as yourself will be happy men only when the United States is gone and Russia and China dominate and control the world, which is what makes the Austrian school people the raving lunatics of an apocalypse, i.e., abominably wrong wrong wrong as per Prez Reagan applied today.

The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

[konying]

You are referring to the Soviet Russian empire that came crashing down of its own dead weight in 1991 as the last empire of history.

The United States is not an empire and and there is no present empire, nor has their been an empire since the collapse of the Soviet Russian one that existed from 1945 - 1991 in Eurasia across and out to the Pacific. Remember Ronald Reagan and his "evil empire." That cut very close to the Soviet Russian bone.

You are another one living in your own fantasy world. The fact is when national currencies collapse the US dollar will not collapse. It will be the haven of everyone else, as much because gold and other precious metals are not practical not to mention insufficient in volume and by a long measure insufficient in volume.

I've pointed out many times there isn't enough gold in the universe to cover the $100 Trillion global GDP. After all, if God had that much gold he'd be a happy man.

In contrast, the Austrian school people such as yourself will be happy men only when the United States is gone and Russia and China dominate and control the world, which is what makes the Austrian school people the raving lunatics of an apocalypse, i.e., abominably wrong wrong wrong as per Prez Reagan applied today.

The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

I realized you stuck, in repeat mode.

And sorry but can not be bothered wasting time reading the rest of your post, it is the usual patriotic drivel with little facts but some imaginary figures.

Russia and China does not play world police and does not meddle in other continents

Of course USD will never collapse because US government said so, speaking of living in imaginary world

But all of that has little to do with the thread.

Edited November 30, 2014 by konying

[Publicus]

You are referring to the Soviet Russian empire that came crashing down of its own dead weight in 1991 as the last empire of history.

The United States is not an empire and and there is no present empire, nor has their been an empire since the collapse of the Soviet Russian one that existed from 1945 - 1991 in Eurasia across and out to the Pacific. Remember Ronald Reagan and his "evil empire." That cut very close to the Soviet Russian bone.

You are another one living in your own fantasy world. The fact is when national currencies collapse the US dollar will not collapse. It will be the haven of everyone else, as much because gold and other precious metals are not practical not to mention insufficient in volume and by a long measure insufficient in volume.

I've pointed out many times there isn't enough gold in the universe to cover the $100 Trillion global GDP. After all, if God had that much gold he'd be a happy man.

In contrast, the Austrian school people such as yourself will be happy men only when the United States is gone and Russia and China dominate and control the world, which is what makes the Austrian school people the raving lunatics of an apocalypse, i.e., abominably wrong wrong wrong as per Prez Reagan applied today.

The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

I realized you stuck, in repeat mode.

And sorry but can not be bothered wasting time reading the rest of your post, it is the usual patriotic drivel with little facts but some imaginary figures.

Russia and China does not play world police and does not meddle in other continents

Of course USD will never collapse because US government said so, speaking of living in imaginary world

But all of that has little to do with the thread.

The US and the Europeans are not sitting on their hands...you and the Austrian school that are seeking a Mad Max global currency apocalypse are delusional.

You want Russia and China to dominate and to control the world. It will never happen, I can assure you in the absolute.

[Anthony5]

You are referring to the Soviet Russian empire that came crashing down of its own dead weight in 1991 as the last empire of history.

The United States is not an empire and and there is no present empire, nor has their been an empire since the collapse of the Soviet Russian one that existed from 1945 - 1991 in Eurasia across and out to the Pacific. Remember Ronald Reagan and his "evil empire." That cut very close to the Soviet Russian bone.

You are another one living in your own fantasy world. The fact is when national currencies collapse the US dollar will not collapse. It will be the haven of everyone else, as much because gold and other precious metals are not practical not to mention insufficient in volume and by a long measure insufficient in volume.

I've pointed out many times there isn't enough gold in the universe to cover the $100 Trillion global GDP. After all, if God had that much gold he'd be a happy man.

In contrast, the Austrian school people such as yourself will be happy men only when the United States is gone and Russia and China dominate and control the world, which is what makes the Austrian school people the raving lunatics of an apocalypse, i.e., abominably wrong wrong wrong as per Prez Reagan applied today.

The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

I realized you stuck, in repeat mode.

And sorry but can not be bothered wasting time reading the rest of your post, it is the usual patriotic drivel with little facts but some imaginary figures.

Russia and China does not play world police and does not meddle in other continents

Of course USD will never collapse because US government said so, speaking of living in imaginary world

But all of that has little to do with the thread.

The US and the Europeans are not sitting on their hands...you and the Austrian school that are seeking a Mad Max global currency apocalypse are delusional.

You want Russia and China to dominate and to control the world. It will never happen, I can assure you in the absolute.

Why not?

Will the US start another war to still their power hunger?

[konying]

You are referring to the Soviet Russian empire that came crashing down of its own dead weight in 1991 as the last empire of history.

The United States is not an empire and and there is no present empire, nor has their been an empire since the collapse of the Soviet Russian one that existed from 1945 - 1991 in Eurasia across and out to the Pacific. Remember Ronald Reagan and his "evil empire." That cut very close to the Soviet Russian bone.

You are another one living in your own fantasy world. The fact is when national currencies collapse the US dollar will not collapse. It will be the haven of everyone else, as much because gold and other precious metals are not practical not to mention insufficient in volume and by a long measure insufficient in volume.

I've pointed out many times there isn't enough gold in the universe to cover the $100 Trillion global GDP. After all, if God had that much gold he'd be a happy man.

In contrast, the Austrian school people such as yourself will be happy men only when the United States is gone and Russia and China dominate and control the world, which is what makes the Austrian school people the raving lunatics of an apocalypse, i.e., abominably wrong wrong wrong as per Prez Reagan applied today.

The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

I realized you stuck, in repeat mode.

And sorry but can not be bothered wasting time reading the rest of your post, it is the usual patriotic drivel with little facts but some imaginary figures.

Russia and China does not play world police and does not meddle in other continents

Of course USD will never collapse because US government said so, speaking of living in imaginary world

But all of that has little to do with the thread.

The US and the Europeans are not sitting on their hands...you and the Austrian school that are seeking a Mad Max global currency apocalypse are delusional.

You want Russia and China to dominate and to control the world. It will never happen, I can assure you in the absolute.

I know hence the reason for US meddling in Ukraine and all other poor attempts world wide which may shortly backfire very badly

As i said, every empire falls apart and always crushing.

PS. Is dominating the world reserved ONLY for USA? or is it gods given right to USA?

Edited November 30, 2014 by konying

[Publicus]

You are referring to the Soviet Russian empire that came crashing down of its own dead weight in 1991 as the last empire of history.

The United States is not an empire and and there is no present empire, nor has their been an empire since the collapse of the Soviet Russian one that existed from 1945 - 1991 in Eurasia across and out to the Pacific. Remember Ronald Reagan and his "evil empire." That cut very close to the Soviet Russian bone.

You are another one living in your own fantasy world. The fact is when national currencies collapse the US dollar will not collapse. It will be the haven of everyone else, as much because gold and other precious metals are not practical not to mention insufficient in volume and by a long measure insufficient in volume.

I've pointed out many times there isn't enough gold in the universe to cover the $100 Trillion global GDP. After all, if God had that much gold he'd be a happy man.

In contrast, the Austrian school people such as yourself will be happy men only when the United States is gone and Russia and China dominate and control the world, which is what makes the Austrian school people the raving lunatics of an apocalypse, i.e., abominably wrong wrong wrong as per Prez Reagan applied today.

The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

I realized you stuck, in repeat mode.

And sorry but can not be bothered wasting time reading the rest of your post, it is the usual patriotic drivel with little facts but some imaginary figures.

Russia and China does not play world police and does not meddle in other continents

Of course USD will never collapse because US government said so, speaking of living in imaginary world

But all of that has little to do with the thread.

The US and the Europeans are not sitting on their hands...you and the Austrian school that are seeking a Mad Max global currency apocalypse are delusional.

You want Russia and China to dominate and to control the world. It will never happen, I can assure you in the absolute.

I know hence the reason for US meddling in Ukraine and all other poor attempts world wide which may shortly backfire very badly

As i said, every empire falls apart and always crushing.

PS. Is dominating the world reserved ONLY for USA? or is it gods given right to USA?

You want Russia and China to destroy the United States and Europe in a global currency apocalypse that will destroy the wealth of the West so that Russia and China can rule the world.

I reiterate you are mad, delusional to think and believe the US and Europe are sitting on their hands in the face of this, or that the United States and Europe would allow your Mad Max Austrian school of economics scenario to occur. I guarantee you in the absolute you people will not succeed because you are incapable of succeeding.

If there is a financial and economic apocalypse it will be the stark opposite of your Goldfinger scenario for the reasons I've pointed out concerning the US accumulation of gold, the US dollar, the revaluation of the US dollar relative to gold.

Russia and China will go down, hard and fast. The only question then will be whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Publicus

[NeverSure]

People of the Austrian school of apocalyptic economics who want to believe the United States and Europe are suicidal, i.e., sitting around doing nothing, or that the US and European elites of government, finance, economics are just plain stupid, instead reveal much about themselves.

The Mad Max syndrome people who want Beijing and Moscow to dominate if not control the world are in for the same shock and shocker other followers of ruthless and deranged dictators experienced.

The world is very likely headed for a Global Great Depression but the outcome of it will be the opposite of that which the Austrian school rightists with their disciples here and elsewhere foresee. The dollar, the capital markets of the United States will remain intact and in their present position. The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

It's not a matter of want, it's a matter of fact... The only statistic that really matters is external debt... Russia and China have zero external debt... The USA, EU and UK, not so lucky...

The only ones that are crazy are Keynesians, believing that economies of the world can be based on debt growth and fiat currencies backed by the "good faith" of the issuer... When you consider that every fiat currency ever created in the history of mankind has failed and that EVERY currency in circulation today is a fiat currency, then who is crazy?

"It's not a matter of want, it's a matter of fact... The only statistic that really matters is external debt... Russia and China have zero external debt... The USA, EU and UK, not so lucky..."

You have zero understanding of external debt. The US must issue treasuries in sufficient amounts to satisfy world demand for dollars. The dollar is the international unit of trade and it is the petrodollar. Even Thailand holds treasuries to back its international trades. A country without dollars is out of business.

If that's external debt, so be it. China and Russia can't have external debt because no one wants their currency.

China holds treasuries so that it can engage in international trades denominated in dollars, and then idiots say "The US owes China money." That's as if China had any surplus money just to loan the US money.

China and Russia's debt is hot air. China's in particular is hidden behind its shadow banking system but not so well hidden behind its ghost cities. There is no way of knowing the conditions of China and Russia because they are secret.

Don't wish a catastrophe on yourself. If things crash the US would default leaving other countries bankrupt and then it would go on its way being totally self sufficient with a clean slate. Europe including Russia and Asia including China would crash and go hungry.

[Naam]

present external debt Russia ~$725 billion, external debt China ~$860 billion.

discussion "external debt Russia and China" closed!

[spidermike007]

This is killing Russia and it's deliberate. The US and Saudi are pumping all-out to drive the price down.

The world oil price is 1/2 what it was in 2009, and as recently as five months ago it was $106. Now it's $70.

Putin depends on oil to run his economy but neither the US or Saudi will be damaged by this.

This is "get even" for Syria and Ukraine without firing a shot.

The big mouth in Russia who thought oil riches would allow him to put the USSR back together by force if necessary has been cut off at the knees.

My heart bleeds for King Vlad. Who cares? This multi billionaire buffoon has never lifted a finger to help a single individual do anything but become a fellow billionaire. He is a locust.

[Scott]

I have no problem with this thread heading in a different direction, but the debt situation is probably less relevant to the discussion than some other aspects. Oil prices affect nearly everyone. From the link in the OP:

Analysts suggest the strategy of maintaining output may be aimed at retaining dominance of the market in the face of increasing shale oil production in the United States.

So, this may be having a detrimental affect on Russia, but that may not be the reason for the drop in prices.

[Publicus]

The oil glut as an Opec assault on US shale oil has been building for a long time but the critical matter of timing has always been the open question.

The US and Opec have known for some considerable time they were going to lock horns over price, control of the market, dominance etc, and this timing suits the US, Europe, Saudis and also Opec as a whole to boot.

The bottom line is that geostrategically vis the Nato countries and in oil Putin is screwed.

As the cartoon indicates, Putin is screwed from behind but a little lower than is shown.

The Nato-EU countries are well stocked for any Putin madness over gas and oil this winter. Last year the EU used a total of 131 bn barrels during a winter of average winter temperatures and weather, and presently have 191 bn in reserve stock to allow for temperature contingencies from Nov 1 through March 31st.

If Putin completely cuts off supplies, which is unlikely, he'd lose $1 bn a day of gross revenues. The ruble is a rubble, European banks have stopped buying gold produced in Russia which also accounts for Russia's increased purchases of domestically produced gold.

Russia's forex reserves took a $100 bn hit before the central bank ran up the white flag to quit trying to support the rubble but Putin has had to dip further into forex to buy Russian produced gold, so now what had been reserves of $540 bn are below the $400 bn mark and continuing to dwindle.

The EU are lining up energy partners that are not strategic geopolitical rivals, such as Madagascar for example, for winter 2015-16 and beyond, which everyone knows will drive Putin to deal in CNYuan with the CCP Boyz in Beijing at a time when the CNYuan is falling despite the People's Bank of China raising interest rates (then lowering them to try to get some GDP traction), while everyone knows the PBOC will have to devalue the yuan.

Currency wars among US adversaries while the US dollar is strengthening indefinitely into the future.

[VegasVic]

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People of the Austrian school of apocalyptic economics who want to believe the United States and Europe are suicidal, i.e., sitting around doing nothing, or that the US and European elites of government, finance, economics are just plain stupid, instead reveal much about themselves.

The Mad Max syndrome people who want Beijing and Moscow to dominate if not control the world are in for the same shock and shocker other followers of ruthless and deranged dictators experienced.

The world is very likely headed for a Global Great Depression but the outcome of it will be the opposite of that which the Austrian school rightists with their disciples here and elsewhere foresee. The dollar, the capital markets of the United States will remain intact and in their present position. The only question is whether the devastated Putin and his demolished Russia will start pushing red buttons.

It's not a matter of want, it's a matter of fact... The only statistic that really matters is external debt... Russia and China have zero external debt... The USA, EU and UK, not so lucky...

The only ones that are crazy are Keynesians, believing that economies of the world can be based on debt growth and fiat currencies backed by the "good faith" of the issuer... When you consider that every fiat currency ever created in the history of mankind has failed and that EVERY currency in circulation today is a fiat currency, then who is crazy?

I'm not sure who is crazy, but if all fiat currencies were to fall by the wayside tomorrow, then the U.S. has around $18 trillion dollars of debt that suddenly vanishes alt=whistling.gif> There is and old saying that goes something like this "be very careful what you wish for young man (lady), for you may very well get it" alt=thumbsup.gif> As I have mentioned many times before on threads like this on TV, there are only a few countries in the world who can be truly self sufficient and cut off from the outside world and the U.S. is one of them. Just some food for thought alt=wai2.gif width=20 height=20>

Wishful thinking.

US ego would get in a way of being cut off and surviving.

I can not think of single empire throughout the history which did not come down crashing

It's not wishful thinking on my part as I feel that fiat currencies with be with us for a verrry long time, I was merely responding to a poster who doesn't seem to think much about fiat currencies and pointing out the obvious, which is that countries with a great deal of external debt would have the most to gain if fiat currencies went the way of the dodo bird BTW I hope all you goldbugs out there in thiavisa land saw the results of the Swiss election, there will no longer be any gold backing the Swiss currency, so much another fiat money discussion I can just see the precious metals pits in NY tomorrow SELL SELL SELL