Palestinian woman stabs Israeli, shot by security forces

[Ulysses G.]

Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands^{%5B1%5D%5B2%5D%5B3%5D%5B4%5D} of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing ArabIsraeli conflict. As of July 2014 the attacks have killed 28 people,^%5B5%5D and injured more than 1900 people, but their main effect is their creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace.^%5B6%5D Medical studies in Sderot, the Israeli city closest to the Gaza Strip, have documented a post-traumatic stress disorder incidence among young children of almost 50%, as well as high rates of depression and miscarriage

Wikipedia

I guess there is a point to the rocket attacks then. If they can't win a head to head battle, make Israelis life a living hell till they negotiate in good faith.

They are making their own lives MUCH worse. Cutting off your nose to spite your face never works.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[cookee68]

It begs the question : why was the Jewish colonist and occupier trespassing in the first place? The woman was exercising her right of self defense. Perhaps she should have asked him nicely to leave.

Great, so i guess IDF is totally justified to shoot any and all Arabs living in Israel. after all they are all tresspassing, the 2 million lot of them.

Really got to love arab posters here, try to think before you speak

In 1890 the Jewish population of Palestine was 2%, in 1947 11%, in 2014 80% with 4 million Palestinians living in refugee camps...go figure who the trespassers are!

That's the whole crux of the problem...an uninvited, unwelcome influx of illegal Jewish immigrants swamping the local culture and economy and taking over the land of the existing Palestinian residents, forcing them into refugee camps.

The consequence is today's incident. Oppression breeds resistance.

If Zionists were not occupying the West Bank this would not have happened.

Then many countries should take note of your history, before it happens somewhere else with other groups of religions, Oh shit it has already happened here in my country the percentages are rising.

[Morch]

You have been caught posting fabrications so many times that posting more links is unnecessary. Ever heard of the little boy who cried wolf?

Never once. Your fantasy is all part of your standard shoot the messenger package. I wear it as a badge of honor...the truth must be hitting a raw nerve.

Enough already...let's get back to the OP.

What sort of future do Israelis envisage for themselves with all these tit for tat attacks, forever looking over their shoulders. Israelis may start vioting with their second passports and remigrating to a safer more prosperous future elsewhere.

As Morch has said..maybe now is not the right political climate with the right politicians in place to achieve a just peace agreement, but at least Netanyahu need not poor gas on the fire with more one sided collective punishments.

I hope he can calm things down.

Enough already...let's get back to the OP.

Had to LOL. Aren't you one of the regular posters bringing up one-sided, partial, agenda suiting history bits whenever it serves making a vague point or defecting a current topic? Not that others do not go there too, mind. Just found the call for getting back on topic rather amusing there.

The topic is not even about Israel's view of future prospects regarding its issues with the Palestinians, but deals rather specifically with a single incident of it.

Nevertheless, as some have trouble getting it - Israel as such does not have a view on this issue. Israel is far from being a monolithic entity, quite the opposite. There is no general agreed upon policy all, or most, of the Israeli public supports. There is not much by way of realistic program and future planning when it comes to dealing with the issue (and that goes to all points of view, some on the pro-peace political camp are pretty loony, as well).

It also have to be said that, generally speaking, that in many parts of Israel this is something one reads about in the news rather than a daily reality. Most of the Israelis do not live in the West Bank, nor regularly go there. Your allusions of mass panic and hysteria are not a reality.

These attacks have two main effects on Israeli public opinion - one is making people fed up (same, but to a lesser degree than Gaza), the other is to actually strengthen the hardline thinking (each attack serving as another "proof").

What is missing (as usual...) from your post - a reference to the Palestinian side. Are these attack constructive in any way to the Palestinian cause? Is there a future in carrying out these tit-for-tat terrorist attacks? Do the Palestinian want to live like this forever? etc...etc... Or, more correctly, what different points of view exist among the Palestinian people and how these come to play within political reality.

This is not just about Israel's political right wing being unwilling to go forward with a peace process, hardly the case that the Palestinian side is just waiting for a call that doesn't come. Abbas is on his own agenda for survival, Hamas is doing their own thing, the Fatah's next generation busy with maneuvers for the day after Abbas and so on....

[Alwyn]

It begs the question : why was the Jewish colonist and occupier trespassing in the first place? The woman was exercising her right of self defense. Perhaps she should have asked him nicely to leave.

Great, so i guess IDF is totally justified to shoot any and all Arabs living in Israel. after all they are all tresspassing, the 2 million lot of them.

Really got to love arab posters here, try to think before you speak

If the Arab posters could actually think (and maybe combine the thought process with a bit of study about the history of the middle east) they wouldn't be posting on here - or anywhere else come to that.

[Morch]

Mate, just come out with it and proclaim for all to see that you're a hate monger, hate Jews, Israelis,

and anything to do with Israel, people like you have been doing that for thousands of years to

the Jews, and guess what? they still there, thriving, inventing, making life better for themselves and

the rest of the world, what did the Arabs did beside of blowing up planes, lobbing heads off and

massacring people while the payer?

You're too late, ezzra...someone's already played the anti-semitic card above. It pays to keep up with the thread.

You may actually have to face up to the truth that these incidents don't happen in a vacuum and it just may have something to do with the daily humiliations, beatings and murders the IDF dish out to Palestinians under their occupation.

No, you're not anti sematic, far from it, you're a person that believe that those poor Palestinians

deserve a better go in life, and so do I and many, many people in Israel and out side Israel,

is jus that the way they're going about it is all wrong, and like you and your many misguided

posts, refusing to accept that there is a better way to deal with this issues and not from the gun's

barrel and a sharp knife, learn to accept that no one ever will force the Jews to capitulate EVER

AGAIN... and that little sliver of land if for ALL people to live in, Jews and Arabs alike,

and hate mongering never did helped any body..

and by the way, if it wasn't for your comments here, this thread will be very, very short...

Well, I actually agree with most of what you say.

IMO I think the way to go for Palestinians is passive resistance, using the social media to shame Israel before the world with images of the daily humiliations and violence they experience at the hands of the IDF and fanatical Zionist settlers.

I hope the BDS movement expands.. I certainly now know what computer chip not to buy. And I hope diplomatic recognition of Palestine grows and ultimately morphs into EU (its biggest trading partner) sanctions against Israel unless the country mends its ways.

As JT frequently loves to say “Israel is going nowhere” and I actually agree with him. Too late to turn back the clock of immigration. But it's true also that: The Palestinians aren't going anywhere this time either. Both people will one way or another be geographic neighbors for eternity.

Now if the Palestinians can resist the daily provocations from Israel, they can simply refuse any silly deals that fall short of justice, and stay where they are breeding their way to outnumber Jews in a one party solution, especially if the one million plus Israelis with foreign passports (such a sign of confidence in Israel eh?) start voting with their feet migrating elsewhere for a better safer future..

It feels like the last days of S Africa to me....sort of we cant go on like this.

Can you point out to any sustained passive resistance efforts by the Palestinians? That YOU say this is the way to go is all very nice, in practice, in all the years of this conflict, it never took root. This too must be Israel's fault, somehow.

Social media campaigns are ok (even when constantly whining about Israel doing the same).

The BDS is yet to play any significant role on Israeli economy, supporters do fail to address its potential effects on the Palestinian economy, though. Regardless, the BDS is not a Palestinian effort, but mostly a foreign based one. May want to check on how diligent the Palestinians themselves are when it comes to making a conscious decision on not buying Israeli made products (when the option exists, granted). And no, I trust that you have no idea about the full extent in which Israeli parts, knowledge, patents, and whatnot exist in many of the products you buy. Even if I was to take your statement at face value, I doubt most consumers exhibit such meticulous scrutiny when shopping.

So, apart from your fantasies of what the Palestinian resistance ought to be like....how about dealing with what it IS like and the reasons why it does not seem too nurturing for the sort of means normally associated with passive resistance?

[Alwyn]

Neversure ...you made the very basic junior lawyer's mistake of asking a question

Please define Palestine in 1890. Can you post a link to a map? Thank you.

...to which you did not know the answer. ..you shudda googled first

There are heaps more 19th and 20th century maps with the word "Palestine" clearly printed on them. It's been around a lot longer than Israel.

Region ... not country. Parts of Jordan, Syria and Egypt are/were in those early regional outlines. And as it happens are the countries that should have provided land to the newly self named Palestinians... but didn't ...Having a 'homeless' people on the door steps of Israel provides a convenient thorn in the side to Israel... A thorn made by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and funded by oil rich mid east countries in the hopes of annihilating Israel ... Palestinian probably means 'Pawn' in Arabic.

What’s in a name...country, state, region, nation?

Believers in Judaism are only one of many peoples who have lived in Palestine. Where is Israel’s title deed after a 2,000 year lapse of the lease?

The point is there were already people living there..96% non Jews.. when the Zionists starting arriving in larger numbers from 1896 onwards, whom the Jewish immigrants by fair means and foul have driven out to become refugees.

That’s the basic injustice I object to. And there wont be peace until that injustice is addressed.

The OP stabbing incident is just one symptom of the whole malaise.

You're a simpleton, you haven't done your homework have you. Palestine has been around longer the Israel? Find me any mention of Palestine in the Bible. You can't, but you will find plenty of mention to Israel. Palestine is a made up name, (I guess all names are made up but....) It comes from the word "Falestinia" a derogatory term used by the Romans - it means Philistines - I guess you know the meaning of that word? The philistines came from an area of land close to Greece and were not even from the region. The occupied a small area of Israel (under Roman occupation) by the coast - known as Gaza. Think about this though. How long have Muslims been on Earth? When did Islam begin? How can Muslims have been there before Jews? Christians were in the region before Muslims. Answer me this question; Go as far back as you like and tell me (before the current Gaza government) how many "Palestinian" governments have there been, ever? I can go further than that for your closed mind too. Palestine was never inhabited by "Palestinians" before the recent Jewish immigration in 1880. They were tribal people in a desert which was full of swamps and malaria. Once Jews started irrigating and producing Arabs came from Jordan, Saudi, Syria etc for work - they were not and are not Palestinians

[Ulysses G.]

This too must be Israel's fault, somehow.

That goes without saying.

[Morch]

If any one ever asked why isn't there a peace in the world, all he has to do is read some of the

posing in these forum, I mean, if you can't even have a rational and educated discussions about the

middle east without it being laced with loathing animosity and hostilities than all is really lost..

:

I would love to have a rationale and educated discussion as to why a woman felt compelled to attack another person with a knife, and was shot for it.

But you said you follow your heart. Sounds more emotional than rational.

Educated discussion would probably need most of the posters taking an extended field trip.

If memory serves, you were not that much in favor of rational discussion when the Palestinian boy was shot on the Gaza

border. Could be wrong as to your interpretation of rational discussion, of course.

[Ulysses G.]

You're a simpleton, you haven't done your homework have you.

It certainly seems like the only homework done is to read dishonest hate-sites that rely on fabricated history. It is easy to disprove with credible sources, but the usual suspects will start bleating about the "Jew controlled media", which is any source that does not push the conspiracy theories that they adhere to.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

If any one ever asked why isn't there a peace in the world, all he has to do is read some of the

posing in these forum, I mean, if you can't even have a rational and educated discussions about the

middle east without it being laced with loathing animosity and hostilities than all is really lost..

:

I would love to have a rationale and educated discussion as to why a woman felt compelled to attack another person with a knife, and was shot for it.

It isn't rational to say that anyone is "compelled" to attack someone with a knife unless she was in immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury from the person she attacked .

What is rational is to say that she made a choice to attack someone with a knife. And, guess who the only one is who can control the choices she makes.

Hint: That would be her.

That women, being brain washed and indoctrinated my some twisted imam of a just Hamas recruiter

knew ver well that by attacking people with a weapon she is risking being shot and killed,

with so many jittery soldiers around with nervous fingers on the trigger, and by the grace of her Allah

she was wended and NOT SHOT DEAD...

if you carry an attack with a weapon, expect to get attacked back with a weapon, not roses...

According to most local reports, the woman and her family are more associated with Fatah than Hamas.

Not that that elements of religious violence incitement do not exist in connection with the Fatah, but somewhat different.

[Morch]

It begs the question : why was the Jewish colonist and occupier trespassing in the first place? The woman was exercising her right of self defense.

And I suppose you would also condone Aboriginals in Australia, First Nation members in Canada, Tibetans, or Singhalese to act in the same manner against their non-indigenous neighbors? But of course such examples are not Jews and thus accorded a different status.

The problem is that Zionists have tried to do in the 20^th and 21^st centuries what Europeans got away with doing in the 18^th and 19^th centuries....colonize a country where other people were already living. But the whole world is watching this time through advanced media.

The Chinese are doing the same in Xinjiang and Tibet and I applaud the struggle against the Han. There are parallels with Israel: the Han Chinese could have the Uyghurs and Tibetans eating out of their hands if they simply respected their religion, culture and land rights, without swamping them economically.

The armed struggle is over for Aborigines, First Nation Canadians and Native Americans, although they are now winning the battles in the courts over land rights.

We expect higher standards from Israel because they regard themselves as a developed civilized democracy with many shared European and N American values. At the moment they are drifting towards a right wing religious fanatic pariah apartheid state.

I have traveled with, climbed with and shared Shabbat with many wonderfully kind and humane Israelis. I’d like to see a better future for them and their Palestinian neighbors. That’s why I criticize the current regime in Tel Aviv. I think the Israelis hold most of the cards, and are intelligent enough to listen to reason ultimately.

Not surprising that you would find parallels between the PRC's and Israel's treatment of people under their control.

Also not surprising how you lumped together the Tibetans and the Uyghurs struggle against the Han.

Of course, one group is making a point of conducting a peaceful resistance (mind, almost entirely outside of the country), while the other...well, not so much. Would you care to detail which parts of the struggles by these two groups you applaud?

As I am sure you are aware, at least some of those nice Israelis you claim to have met, served their time with the IDF. This, if anything, is a good example of how less-than-simple realities are.

The Israeli "regime" does not, for the most part, sit in Tel Aviv, but in Jerusalem.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Scott

[Clutch]

Quote by UG; I'm pretty much always honest on here'

'Pretty much' is the operative word.

Synonyms: a little, fairly, kind of, moderately, more or less, some, something, sort of.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Clutch

[Ulysses G.]

Do you know anyone who is 100% honest, all of the time? Just being realistic.

[JDGRUEN]

"A police spokeswoman said the Palestinian woman who carried out the attack was shot."

Getting shot is pretty much all these terrorists accomplish with their attacks. They get a lot more of their own people killed than those they hate.

who would not hate people who forcefully occupy your country? I am sure. the French hated the German occupiers. These incidents would bever happen if Israel abided by the United Nations order to relinquish the territory they seized.

The lands in dispute - borders moved back and forth for over 60 years... Mostly done in acts of war ... under which seizing land is part and parcel of the law of land warfare... A country which is attacked takes land to create a buffer - extend their borders making it more difficult to rocket their cities and industry. World History is replete with this type of story ... The only difference it didn't happen 300 years ago - or 1000 years ago --- it was just about 60 or so years ago that it all began. The lesson to be learned - Don't attack Israel ....

Gaza was given back to the Arabs in that area... It was left in good shape ...it was then mostly destroyed - especially closer to the Israeli border and turned into rocket launching areas... and the digging of tunnels to attack and invade...

The Arabs are lucky that all the lands were not taken ... Israel has a right to protect itself... and it if means taking and keeping land to keep the enemy further away -- then it will happen again....

I am amazed at the total lack of knowledge of World History on the part of the TVF posters .... Many of you guys think that this situation is something new... What Israel is doing is hardly anything new - it is classic warfare ... It has been going on constantly since about 7 to 10,000 years ago around the world... In every continent - in every region, the World History of near constant war... More recently try the Balkans on for size, look at many places in Africa, etc. Europe was a set of borders flowing back and forth for 1500 - 1700 years ... Old maps would not even be recognizable.

The only difference in the Israeli - Arab situation is that it is happening now... not 500 years ago. World History is for a large part - the taking and retaking of lands - arguments - disputes - wars,,, The big neighboring Arab countries - attacked Israel several times. Repulsed every time... the Local Arabs were abandoned by the neighboring Arab Countries -- offering no solution -- except to use the Local Arabs as Pawns... in a game of Chess Warfare...

Israel is not going to allow the local Arabs to have any advantage in striking them -- which they do constantly... Stop making war with Israel and the lands may well be returned .... Why not try something new for a change.

Edited December 2, 2014 by JDGRUEN

[Alwyn]

You're a simpleton, you haven't done your homework have you.

It certainly seems like the only homework done is to read dishonest hate-sites that rely on fabricated history. It is easy to disprove with credible sources, but the usual suspects will start bleating about the "Jew controlled media", which is any source that does not push the conspiracy theories that they adhere to.

Ulysses G. I don't know if you're referring to me or the previous poster. But I've done my homework (partly in blood as I lived there for many years). Most people who comment haven't even been in the region and (in my opinion) seem to think Gazans are a downtrodden minority with some kind of claim on the land of Israel. The Arabs that were living there when Britain handed over the land to become Israel (again) were not forced to leave - and that's pretty well documented too. The ones that didn't believe the hype from Saudi and Syria that the Jews were going to eat their babies and stayed, have prospered. There's the best part of 2 million Arabs living and working in Israel. There are Arabs in the Knesset and the IDF. How many Israelis live in Gaza? I'm not going to continue just now as I'm tired of it all. The hatred from Gazans (of Hamas at least) that is supported & even applauded around the World sickens me. I just ask people to ask themselves two questions. 1) If Israel downed arms and destroyed all of their weaponry, what would happen to Israel from the likes of Hamas and it's neighbours?.2). If Hamas, Gaza, and Israel's neighbours downed arms and destroyed the weapons etc, what would happen to those countries (from Israel - not ISIL etc).

[Ulysses G.]

You're a simpleton, you haven't done your homework have you.

It certainly seems like the only homework done is to read dishonest hate-sites that rely on fabricated history. It is easy to disprove with credible sources, but the usual suspects will start bleating about the "Jew controlled media", which is any source that does not push the conspiracy theories that they adhere to.

Ulysses G. I don't know if you're referring to me or the previous poster. But I've done my homework (partly in blood as I lived there for many years).

The previous poster. Most of what he posts is imaginary and you were right to point it out.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

Neversure ...you made the very basic junior lawyer's mistake of asking a question

Please define Palestine in 1890. Can you post a link to a map? Thank you.

...to which you did not know the answer. ..you shudda googled first

There are heaps more 19th and 20th century maps with the word "Palestine" clearly printed on them. It's been around a lot longer than Israel.

Region ... not country. Parts of Jordan, Syria and Egypt are/were in those early regional outlines. And as it happens are the countries that should have provided land to the newly self named Palestinians... but didn't ...Having a 'homeless' people on the door steps of Israel provides a convenient thorn in the side to Israel... A thorn made by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and funded by oil rich mid east countries in the hopes of annihilating Israel ... Palestinian probably means 'Pawn' in Arabic.

What’s in a name...country, state, region, nation?

Believers in Judaism are only one of many peoples who have lived in Palestine. Where is Israel’s title deed after a 2,000 year lapse of the lease?

The point is there were already people living there..96% non Jews.. when the Zionists starting arriving in larger numbers from 1896 onwards, whom the Jewish immigrants by fair means and foul have driven out to become refugees.

That’s the basic injustice I object to. And there wont be peace until that injustice is addressed.

The OP stabbing incident is just one symptom of the whole malaise.

I usually avoid most of the pseudo-historical bickering frequently appearing on these topics, as I do not put much stock in historical "rights" or their use to justify current events. Not that the issue is not an interesting, if loaded, but simply not feasible to discuss it within the framework of this forum and the agenda driven posting. Not to mention utter nonsense, quite embarrassing at times.

There are enough concrete and immediate problems without muddying the water further with historical debate.

The Israelis are not going to disappear, the Palestinians are not going to disappear.

The argument about who was first, who's right is stronger - can be fascinating (or boring...), but it bears very little on the final outcome. This sort of back and forth has more to do with who's right and who's wrong rather than serve any constructive purpose in improving the situation for any of the sides.

Can't have it both ways. Can't claim historical right for one side, then dismiss the other side's history. The minute history is conjured it applies to all sides. One does not cancel the other. Can't set up arbitrary dates as start-line as well. Well, it's possible, just doesn't mean much outside of an agenda driven argument.

[dexterm]

"A police spokeswoman said the Palestinian woman who carried out the attack was shot."

Getting shot is pretty much all these terrorists accomplish with their attacks. They get a lot more of their own people killed than those they hate.

These incidents would bever happen if Israel abided by the United Nations order to relinquish the territory they seized.

These incidents would have never happened if the Palestinians had accepted the UN solution in the first place and not declared war on Israel. The Palestinians lost that one and they have been losing ever since, due to their own pigheadedness. Actions have consequences.

Why not look towards the future rather than constantly keep on harking to the past.

The Zionists have missed their chances too. It’s a pity that the 20^th Zionist Congress rejected the earlier Peel Commission Plan of 1937 (when the Jewish population of Palestine was only 27%), even though Jews would have been given some of the most fertile land in the Galilee valley and more of the coastal strip than in the later UN plan, because, in their words, the areas allocated to the "Jewish state" were "too small". The Zionists wanted more even then and they have never stopped wanting more.

But the most damning part of that rejection comes from Ben Gurion himself.

"Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed---most of them would be in Israel" (“One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate” by Tom Segev p. 414).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission

Yes, I know the Palestinian negotiators rejected it too...quite rightly IMO..why should they give their land away to a minority of illegal migrants... but the Zionists also made a misjudgment.. because they wanted a better deal i.e. even more of Palestine to accommodate the massive influx of Jewish migrants from Europe.

If the Zionists had accepted the deal 100% it might have been a stepping stone to negotiations, and saved 6 million Jews from the Holocaust.

We all make mistakes.

If Yitzhak Rabin had not been assassinated by a rabid right wing Zionist in 1995, maybe Israel and Palestine would have been living side by side in a prosperous peace for the last 15 years or more

[Alwyn]

You're a simpleton, you haven't done your homework have you.

It certainly seems like the only homework done is to read dishonest hate-sites that rely on fabricated history. It is easy to disprove with credible sources, but the usual suspects will start bleating about the "Jew controlled media", which is any source that does not push the conspiracy theories that they adhere to.

Ulysses G. I don't know if you're referring to me or the previous poster. But I've done my homework (partly in blood as I lived there for many years).

The previous poster. Most of what he posts is imaginary and you were right to point it out.

Imaginary is a polite way of putting it.

[Ulysses G.]

"A police spokeswoman said the Palestinian woman who carried out the attack was shot."

Getting shot is pretty much all these terrorists accomplish with their attacks. They get a lot more of their own people killed than those they hate.

These incidents would bever happen if Israel abided by the United Nations order to relinquish the territory they seized.

These incidents would have never happened if the Palestinians had accepted the UN solution in the first place and not declared war on Israel. The Palestinians lost that one and they have been losing ever since, due to their own pigheadedness. Actions have consequences.

Why not look towards the future rather than constantly keep on harking to the past.

Then YOU start harping on the past and - as usual - dishonestly.

The Jews did not reject that particular partition plan outright, but instead announced that they wished to keep carrying on negotiations. The Jewish leadership accepted partition in principle.

The ARABS rejected it COMPLETELY. They wholly rejected both the partition and establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, so your little fantasy could never have happened. That is all in YOUR OWN LINK by the way. Do you even read them?

Hoisted by your own fabrications petard yet again.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

"A police spokeswoman said the Palestinian woman who carried out the attack was shot."

Getting shot is pretty much all these terrorists accomplish with their attacks. They get a lot more of their own people killed than those they hate.

These incidents would bever happen if Israel abided by the United Nations order to relinquish the territory they seized.

These incidents would have never happened if the Palestinians had accepted the UN solution in the first place and not declared war on Israel. The Palestinians lost that one and they have been losing ever since, due to their own pigheadedness. Actions have consequences.

Why not look towards the future rather than constantly keep on harking to the past.

The Zionists have missed their chances too. It’s a pity that the 20^th Zionist Congress rejected the earlier Peel Commission Plan of 1937 (when the Jewish population of Palestine was only 27%), even though Jews would have been given some of the most fertile land in the Galilee valley and more of the coastal strip than in the later UN plan, because, in their words, the areas allocated to the "Jewish state" were "too small". The Zionists wanted more even then and they have never stopped wanting more.

But the most damning part of that rejection comes from Ben Gurion himself.

"Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed---most of them would be in Israel" (“One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate” by Tom Segev p. 414).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission

Yes, I know the Palestinian negotiators rejected it too...quite rightly IMO..why should they give their land away to a minority of illegal migrants... but the Zionists also made a misjudgment.. because they wanted a better deal i.e. even more of Palestine to accommodate the massive influx of Jewish migrants from Europe.

If the Zionists had accepted the deal 100% it might have been a stepping stone to negotiations, and saved 6 million Jews from the Holocaust.

We all make mistakes.

If Yitzhak Rabin had not been assassinated by a rabid right wing Zionist in 1995, maybe Israel and Palestine would have been living side by side in a prosperous peace for the last 15 years or more

Just to make your claim clear.... Both sides rejected the plan, but if the Jews would have accepted it then somehow 6 million Jews would have been saved. Are you saying that had the Jews gone along with this then the Arab rejection would have been...what?

The Ben Gurion quote laments the plan not becoming reality at the time, but it does not imply that it was all up to the Jewish side, as your post does.

Rabin would have most likely lost the next election if he would have been alive. Public opinion, even without the right wing incitement was not all in favor of how things panned out with the Palestinians.

[Morch]

Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands^[1][2][3][4] of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. As of July 2014 the attacks have killed 28 people,^[5] and injured more than 1900 people, but their main effect is their creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace.^[6] Medical studies in Sderot, the Israeli city closest to the Gaza Strip, have documented a post-traumatic stress disorder incidence among young children of almost 50%, as well as high rates of depression and miscarriage

Wikipedia

I guess there is a point to the rocket attacks then. If they can't win a head to head battle, make Israelis life a living hell till they negotiate in good faith.

And how is that working out for them so far?

It would seem that both Israel and the Palestinians are not too good at changing course while engaging in stupidity.

[thaibeachlovers]

Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands^{%5B1%5D%5B2%5D%5B3%5D%5B4%5D} of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing ArabIsraeli conflict. As of July 2014 the attacks have killed 28 people,^%5B5%5D and injured more than 1900 people, but their main effect is their creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace.^%5B6%5D Medical studies in Sderot, the Israeli city closest to the Gaza Strip, have documented a post-traumatic stress disorder incidence among young children of almost 50%, as well as high rates of depression and miscarriage

Wikipedia

I guess there is a point to the rocket attacks then. If they can't win a head to head battle, make Israelis life a living hell till they negotiate in good faith.

They are making their own lives MUCH worse. Cutting off your nose to spite your face never works.

Living in Gaza couldn't be any worse. If I lived there I'd for sure be wanting to take revenge on the oppressors. All the Israeli blockade does is breed more resistance fighters.

[thaibeachlovers]

You're a simpleton, you haven't done your homework have you.

It certainly seems like the only homework done is to read dishonest hate-sites that rely on fabricated history. It is easy to disprove with credible sources, but the usual suspects will start bleating about the "Jew controlled media", which is any source that does not push the conspiracy theories that they adhere to.

Ulysses G. I don't know if you're referring to me or the previous poster. But I've done my homework (partly in blood as I lived there for many years). Most people who comment haven't even been in the region and (in my opinion) seem to think Gazans are a downtrodden minority with some kind of claim on the land of Israel. The Arabs that were living there when Britain handed over the land to become Israel (again) were not forced to leave - and that's pretty well documented too. The ones that didn't believe the hype from Saudi and Syria that the Jews were going to eat their babies and stayed, have prospered. There's the best part of 2 million Arabs living and working in Israel. There are Arabs in the Knesset and the IDF. How many Israelis live in Gaza? I'm not going to continue just now as I'm tired of it all. The hatred from Gazans (of Hamas at least) that is supported & even applauded around the World sickens me. I just ask people to ask themselves two questions. 1) If Israel downed arms and destroyed all of their weaponry, what would happen to Israel from the likes of Hamas and it's neighbours?.2). If Hamas, Gaza, and Israel's neighbours downed arms and destroyed the weapons etc, what would happen to those countries (from Israel - not ISIL etc).

No one is asking Israel to destroy its weapons. They are asking that Israel withdraw from the land it is occupying and allow the Palestinians to have their own free country. All peoples want to live in a free country.

By all means build the wall on the 1948 border.

Israel only exists because the UN says it does, but that applies only to the 1948 border. It has no legal right to land outside the 1948 border, or at least I never heard that the UN changed the border since 1948.

[Alwyn]

You're a simpleton, you haven't done your homework have you.

It certainly seems like the only homework done is to read dishonest hate-sites that rely on fabricated history. It is easy to disprove with credible sources, but the usual suspects will start bleating about the "Jew controlled media", which is any source that does not push the conspiracy theories that they adhere to.

Ulysses G. I don't know if you're referring to me or the previous poster. But I've done my homework (partly in blood as I lived there for many years). Most people who comment haven't even been in the region and (in my opinion) seem to think Gazans are a downtrodden minority with some kind of claim on the land of Israel. The Arabs that were living there when Britain handed over the land to become Israel (again) were not forced to leave - and that's pretty well documented too. The ones that didn't believe the hype from Saudi and Syria that the Jews were going to eat their babies and stayed, have prospered. There's the best part of 2 million Arabs living and working in Israel. There are Arabs in the Knesset and the IDF. How many Israelis live in Gaza? I'm not going to continue just now as I'm tired of it all. The hatred from Gazans (of Hamas at least) that is supported & even applauded around the World sickens me. I just ask people to ask themselves two questions. 1) If Israel downed arms and destroyed all of their weaponry, what would happen to Israel from the likes of Hamas and it's neighbours?.2). If Hamas, Gaza, and Israel's neighbours downed arms and destroyed the weapons etc, what would happen to those countries (from Israel - not ISIL etc).

No one is asking Israel to destroy its weapons. They are asking that Israel withdraw from the land it is occupying and allow the Palestinians to have their own free country. All peoples want to live in a free country.

By all means build the wall on the 1948 border.

Israel only exists because the UN says it does, but that applies only to the 1948 border. It has no legal right to land outside the 1948 border, or at least I never heard that the UN changed the border since 1948.

Yet you didn't answer the question.... Here's the problem with that idea (unfortunately). Giving back the Golan Heights are Jordan river corridor leaves them seriously exposed to attack again from Syria (maybe not right at this very moment, but who knows.) Israel gave back the Sinai peninsular as part of the peace accord, it's not like they are not prepared to give land back. If you look at the land given to Gazans the country is actually smaller than in 1948. The land they took was as a direct result to wars being forced on them. Tell America to give back Mexico or Thailand to give back the southern provinces, why is everybody focused on putting Israel into the Mediterranean? Israel does have a serious security risk but if neighbouring countries were to follow in Egypt's footsteps all could be sorted (from what I know anyway). How about Jordan? Lot's of "Palestinians were living there when it was parcelled of by the British and handed to the Saudi royal family gatekeepers but nobody complains much about that either. But, I have to say to you; Thanks for a sensible conversation on your part and not a usual diatribe of "give Palestine back to the Palestinians" type of thing!

[Lissos]

No links as per usual to your second myth that Zionists made the empty desert bloom...the area that was the cradle of civilization and the land bridge between Asia, Africa and Europe had only a handful of people who couldn't feed themselves until the saviour Zionists came along, the ones who now uproot Palestinian olive groves and orchards for illegal Zionist colonist housing estates. That myth is very extensively debunked here. Well worth a read http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story665.html

In reality, leaders (even Gadaffi, of all people) in places like Egypt and Libya, openly acknowledged that the Israelis had managed to make the desert bloom, and were themselves inspired to begin similar projects in their own nations. Over in Libya, Gadaffi even wanted to surpass them. In Egypt, go to the Western Desert oases for example and you will see such projects under way right now. It has not been a total sucess yet and things are on a far smaller scale, but the concept is there and everyone knows where it came from. Acknowledging that the desert was made to bloom does not mean to say that the area was a total dustbowl of famine prior to the arrival of Zionists. To suggest so would be wrong, because places like Gaza were always fertile. The Zionists brought skills that cultivated areas that were previously considered hopeless, and to deny that they managed this is pointless. Today, Israel continues to excell in the kind of technology that makes agriculture possible in extreme arid environments and it is consulted on this from far and wide. The same goes for its pioneering tapping of solar power.

[Lissos]

Giving back the Golan Heights are Jordan river corridor leaves them seriously exposed to attack again from Syria (maybe not right at this very moment, but who knows.)

Golan is even more crucial at this very moment, in my opinion.

[thaibeachlovers]

It certainly seems like the only homework done is to read dishonest hate-sites that rely on fabricated history. It is easy to disprove with credible sources, but the usual suspects will start bleating about the "Jew controlled media", which is any source that does not push the conspiracy theories that they adhere to.

Ulysses G. I don't know if you're referring to me or the previous poster. But I've done my homework (partly in blood as I lived there for many years). Most people who comment haven't even been in the region and (in my opinion) seem to think Gazans are a downtrodden minority with some kind of claim on the land of Israel. The Arabs that were living there when Britain handed over the land to become Israel (again) were not forced to leave - and that's pretty well documented too. The ones that didn't believe the hype from Saudi and Syria that the Jews were going to eat their babies and stayed, have prospered. There's the best part of 2 million Arabs living and working in Israel. There are Arabs in the Knesset and the IDF. How many Israelis live in Gaza? I'm not going to continue just now as I'm tired of it all. The hatred from Gazans (of Hamas at least) that is supported & even applauded around the World sickens me. I just ask people to ask themselves two questions. 1) If Israel downed arms and destroyed all of their weaponry, what would happen to Israel from the likes of Hamas and it's neighbours?.2). If Hamas, Gaza, and Israel's neighbours downed arms and destroyed the weapons etc, what would happen to those countries (from Israel - not ISIL etc).

No one is asking Israel to destroy its weapons. They are asking that Israel withdraw from the land it is occupying and allow the Palestinians to have their own free country. All peoples want to live in a free country.

By all means build the wall on the 1948 border.

Israel only exists because the UN says it does, but that applies only to the 1948 border. It has no legal right to land outside the 1948 border, or at least I never heard that the UN changed the border since 1948.

Yet you didn't answer the question.... Here's the problem with that idea (unfortunately). Giving back the Golan Heights are Jordan river corridor leaves them seriously exposed to attack again from Syria (maybe not right at this very moment, but who knows.) Israel gave back the Sinai peninsular as part of the peace accord, it's not like they are not prepared to give land back. If you look at the land given to Gazans the country is actually smaller than in 1948. The land they took was as a direct result to wars being forced on them. Tell America to give back Mexico or Thailand to give back the southern provinces, why is everybody focused on putting Israel into the Mediterranean? Israel does have a serious security risk but if neighbouring countries were to follow in Egypt's footsteps all could be sorted (from what I know anyway). How about Jordan? Lot's of "Palestinians were living there when it was parcelled of by the British and handed to the Saudi royal family gatekeepers but nobody complains much about that either. But, I have to say to you; Thanks for a sensible conversation on your part and not a usual diatribe of "give Palestine back to the Palestinians" type of thing!

I wasn't referring to the Golan Heights, and I wouldn't expect that to even be a consideration. Only talking about Palestinian land as defined by the 1948 borders.

[Seastallion]

No links as per usual to your second myth that Zionists made the empty desert bloom...the area that was the cradle of civilization and the land bridge between Asia, Africa and Europe had only a handful of people who couldn't feed themselves until the saviour Zionists came along, the ones who now uproot Palestinian olive groves and orchards for illegal Zionist colonist housing estates. That myth is very extensively debunked here. Well worth a read http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story665.html

In reality, leaders (even Gadaffi, of all people) in places like Egypt and Libya, openly acknowledged that the Israelis had managed to make the desert bloom, and were themselves inspired to begin similar projects in their own nations. Over in Libya, Gadaffi even wanted to surpass them. In Egypt, go to the Western Desert oases for example and you will see such projects under way right now. It has not been a total sucess yet and things are on a far smaller scale, but the concept is there and everyone knows where it came from. Acknowledging that the desert was made to bloom does not mean to say that the area was a total dustbowl of famine prior to the arrival of Zionists. To suggest so would be wrong, because places like Gaza were always fertile. The Zionists brought skills that cultivated areas that were previously considered hopeless, and to deny that they managed this is pointless. Today, Israel continues to excell in the kind of technology that makes agriculture possible in extreme arid environments and it is consulted on this from far and wide. The same goes for its pioneering tapping of solar power.

Here you broach a subject that may have a very big part in Israel's drive for more settlements. To "make the desert bloom" you need water.

Where do they put the settlements? Wherever there is water. Israel is selectively gaining control of all the aquifers, leaving the Palesrinians with dire water shortages everywhere.

It's not a case of admirable work ethic, advanced technology etc that makes the desert bloom, it's the criminal stealing and control of natural water supplies.

"...Under international law and as the occupying power, Israel holds the primary responsibility for the

welfare of the Palestinians. Yet discriminatory Israeli policies and practices routinely deny Palestinians

their right to water and sanitation. The right to water and sanitation, and the right for a people to make use

of their natural wealth are human rights under international law that Israel has ratified, e.g..... "

http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=1001

[Ulysses G.]

Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands^{%5B1%5D%5B2%5D%5B3%5D%5B4%5D} of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing ArabIsraeli conflict. As of July 2014 the attacks have killed 28 people,^%5B5%5D and injured more than 1900 people, but their main effect is their creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace.^%5B6%5D Medical studies in Sderot, the Israeli city closest to the Gaza Strip, have documented a post-traumatic stress disorder incidence among young children of almost 50%, as well as high rates of depression and miscarriage

Wikipedia

I guess there is a point to the rocket attacks then. If they can't win a head to head battle, make Israelis life a living hell till they negotiate in good faith.

They are making their own lives MUCH worse. Cutting off your nose to spite your face never works.

Living in Gaza couldn't be any worse. If I lived there I'd for sure be wanting to take revenge on the oppressors. All the Israeli blockade does is breed more resistance fighters.

There WAS NO BLOCKADE when Gaza was handed over the "resistance fighters" Hamas TERRORISTS caused it.

Living in Gaza could be much worse. There are luxury hotels and shopping malls and a major obesity problem.