Prosecutors set to arraign Myanmar men for Koh Tao killings

[Number 3]

When this goes to trial, I expect

1) The trial will be very drawn out.

This gives longer for the case to fade from the public's mind. It also gives the police, prosecutor and court the time to closely monitor any events happening in the UK, or less likely, Burma or NHRC and adjust their actions accordingly to cover their backs.

2) Heavy control of reporting and close management of 'the message' by the judge and any press office.

3) Nothing in the way of an adversarial trial that Western posters would be familiar with.

Cross-examination of witnesses by barristers, lawyers, etc. is almost unheard of in Thai courts. Proceedings are much more tightly controlled and dominated by the judge.

Under the cloak of martial law there it is virtually impossible these boys will go free. Meanwhile, the death toll continues .. aided by deceptive tourism promotions.

Unless the document can be leaked I fear the same tunnel vision will continue.

It is there but it must be seen to be believed.

[iReason]

If the reports of GSW are indeed true, I hope that you will be the bigger man and apologise to Number3 ?

Or do you also just crave attention ?

I would like to think that he's more in the know than some others here, and If it's not true, then a ban should be in order , however I will give him the benefit of the doubt on this one ?

"I would like to think that he's more in the know than some others here..."

How could you possibly come to an assessment like that?

By staring at a computer screen?

To you know this phantom?

I'll wait and take my chances from reputable printed media.

And, why would anyone trust a "source" that says:

“I am reporting what I was told, in confidence.”

“In confidence”

Do you know what that means?

Edited December 2, 2014 by iReason

[llz]

Number 3

Are you comfortable posting absolute hearsay and steering all the sheep here into a frenzy?

Or do you just have some sort of perverse need for attention?

Some clown comes out of the woodwork and everyone is in a fuss as if it is fact.

Despicable.

EVERY post referring to Number 3's scoop uses a lot of "if", "maybe", and conditional tense. So posters here are unitil now far from being "sheep in frenzy". As for the so-called "clown", he explains clearly what his source is.

We should just make sure that, as the thread goes along, rumour does not turn into truth in the mouths of less careful or more impatient posters.

[englishoak]

Any police report forwarded to the RTP would also be available to the B2 lawyers if its official and exists.

Its really unusual for the UK police to let sensitive information out before the FO coroners report and hearing in Jan.

Forwarding a report early that concludes the involvement of a firearm will be a clear message to the whole Thai government of the most serious kind. It is possible in the event there was a shooting involved there would be unprecedented UKGov intervention.

If the case is so severely flawed that theres an obvious attempt to cover up the deaths of two British Citizens by the RTP that would have to include Thai authorities being aware and complicit. We might see something very unusual happen if the British authorities decide enough is enough, blowing the whole thing wide open on the world stage or just having the evidence to do so would be a game changer.

Edited December 2, 2014 by englishoak

[retsdon]

When this goes to trial, I expect

1) The trial will be very drawn out.

This gives longer for the case to fade from the public's mind. It also gives the police, prosecutor and court the time to closely monitor any events happening in the UK, or less likely, Burma or NHRC and adjust their actions accordingly to cover their backs.

2) Heavy control of reporting and close management of 'the message' by the judge and any press office.

3) Nothing in the way of an adversarial trial that Western posters would be familiar with.

Cross-examination of witnesses by barristers, lawyers, etc. is almost unheard of in Thai courts. Proceedings are much more tightly controlled and dominated by the judge.

Under the cloak of martial law there it is virtually impossible these boys will go free. Meanwhile, the death toll continues .. aided by deceptive tourism promotions.

Unless the document can be leaked I fear the same tunnel vision will continue.

It is there but it must be seen to be believed.

It will be seen in the form of a coroner's report at the inquest in January. If you are actually correct, and the report exists with this finding in it, and if you are correct that the British have given the Thais a sight of the report, then the only reason for the British revealing it is to head the Thais off from digging themselves into the deepest of holes. It's not impossible that the Thais disbelieved, shrugged off, or misunderstood earlier British unofficial indications of what would be in the report.The 'I don't believe you really have a pistol in the drawer' line. So the British have duly taken out and revealed the pistol, cocked and loaded in all its glory.

The ball is firmly back on the Thai side of the net. No doubt it will take them a few days to decide quite how to play it.

[Number 3]

Number 3

Are you comfortable posting absolute hearsay and steering all the sheep here into a frenzy?

Or do you just have some sort of perverse need for attention?

Some clown comes out of the woodwork and everyone is in a fuss as if it is fact.

Despicable.

EVERY post referring to Number 3's scoop uses a lot of "if", "maybe", and conditional tense. So posters here are unitil now far from being "sheep in frenzy". As for the so-called "clown", he explains clearly what his source is.

We should just make sure that, as the thread goes along, rumour does not turn into truth in the mouths of less careful or more impatient posters.

Couldn't agree with your sentiment more. I'm not debating anything just hoping to have open dialogue with a source rightly or wrongly. It is nothing that I can prove in a court of law yet and understand completely the gravity of just the few simple points that I know. If I learn more,as I hope to do, only then can I honestly report more. It's not a red herring it's not a debate and it's not an avenue to reignite hated and to trample each other with horrid posts. Let's see what further comes out.

I would suggest emailing Kent advising that we are aware of the document and would like some access now. That's would not be a bad idea. Anyone has a beef with me you're on your own. I am merely informing information received. Keep your hostilities in check and see what we can manage to extract because I reckon those Burmese lads need a bit more than slag off exercises on Thai visa.

Let's see what else comes out.

[englishoak]

Theres a month to go, the British FO hearing in January, police investigation, findings and full conclusions along with the coroners full report will be made public on the days of the hearings.

It wont cover up the cause of death, not a chance. It will be very clear, professional and to the point as can be, if theres injury by firearm it will 100% say so and be conclusive proof the B2 are innocent whatever their situation at that time.

If you thought social media took an interest before itll be nothing compared to what will follow a bombshell like that.

[Heisenberg01]

As much as I, and im sure most on here would love for a bombshell, new evidence to emerge and the real culprits found, an acceptance form the Thai juntas they were wrong and the real culprits ending up on the end of a firing squad i have to call bullshit on this.

Not for one minute do think the B2 DID IT, but i think there is too much dreaming go on, too many people wanting stufff to be true so bad they make stuff up and hope it comes true, or desperate to appear to be in the know.

Whers Fong these days as well?

Apologies if this turns out to be correct the next few days, but trying to be polite i call bullshit, and this is no RTp apologist, but someone with Thai stepdaughter, Half Thai daughter, land and Buisness owner who wont set foot in the shit hole country ever again, nor will my children whilst im responsible for them.

Murders happen everywhere i know, but the audacity shown here has finsished me.

Thailand, your fookin out!

Edited December 2, 2014 by Heisenberg01

[metisdead]

Posts speculating that a gunshot was the fatal injury to Hannah have been removed, as there have been no official reports on this matter, this can be filed under rumor mongering and not allowed:

Any posts which can be construed as rumor mongering are not allowed.

Posters violating these rules, and the forum rules will receive a warning, a possible suspension of posting privileges or a ban from the site.

[JLCrab]

Norwich Evening News October 1, 2014

http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/mobile/news/hannah_witheridge_inquest_opens_as_police_search_for_three_people_believed_to_be_involved_in_her_murder_1_3790331

The inquest into the death of a young woman from Hembsy opened in Norwich today following the announcement that police investigators in Thailand now believe three people were involved in her murder.

Speaking at the inquest, senior coroner Jacqueline Lake said Miss Witheridge had been indentified using DNA taken from her parents - Tony and Susan Witheridge.

Post-mortem examinations revealed that Ms Witheridge died from “severe head wounds”.

The inquest has been adjourned until January 6, 2015.

[CarlTyson]

Burmese laborers are at the bottom of the Thai food chain.

Would a wealthy, influential Thai think twice about framing them to save his face?

With the massive police fraud currently being uncovered, is there any doubt the police would go along with an immoral coverup for a profit?

Of course they would. They have before. It's proven. Common knowledge.

There are too many past cases where the high level Thai has walked.

Everybody can agree there is reasonable doubt in this case.

Ask yourself, can the police be trusted?

[CarlTyson]

Norwich Evening News October 1, 2014

http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/mobile/news/hannah_witheridge_inquest_opens_as_police_search_for_three_people_believed_to_be_involved_in_her_murder_1_3790331

The inquest into the death of a young woman from Hembsy opened in Norwich today following the announcement that police investigators in Thailand now believe three people were involved in her murder.

Speaking at the inquest, senior coroner Jacqueline Lake said Miss Witheridge had been indentified using DNA taken from her parents - Tony and Susan Witheridge.

Post-mortem examinations revealed that Ms Witheridge died from “severe head wounds”.

The inquest has been adjourned until January 6, 2015.

Interesting quote from the Police Commissioner:

"Speaking to the Bangkok Post, Lieutenant General Panya Mamen, commissioner of Provincial Police Region 8, said: “We’re confident we have a very high chance of finding the suspects.”

This is the same Police Commissioner that earlier (Sept 23) said he: "arrested the Headmans brother and the Headmans son fled the island."

[JLCrab]

If there was to be any bombshell it would be how the UK coroner's office missed the speculated subsequent bombshell in their released initial post-mortem findings.

[wilcopops]

Why is everyone hell bent on saying these 2 are innocent.

The General just had some of the top cops in Thailand arrested yet there isn't as much as a hint that his people have found anything untoward and don't think for one minute they haven't checked

I very much doubt if the General would hesitate to arrest anyone who has tampered with evidence...He wants the people behind him and if this was a stitch up and he exposed it, his popularity would go through the roof.

It seems that all we read on Thaivisa these days is post written by know it alls who spend half their lives telling us every policeman in Thailand is corrupt and in every case that comes up the evil Thai Police have an angle.

In the case at hand there is not one piece of evidence that suggests these guys are innocent. They have no alibi of being elsewhere, they admitted they did it but now with their lives on the line and a bunch of lawyers (the most honest people in Thailand) pulling the strings suddenly we here cries of "It wasn't me"c

Some one correct me if I am wrong but wasn't there a 3rd man, their friend who witnessed the attack?

Totally naive assessment.

Very few are suggesting innocence.....the problem is that procedure and due process have been ignored.

Of course any evidence that contradicts the police could quite possibly have been ignored or suppressed.

As for the other " case " ....your interpretation would indicate that you've completely missed the significance there

[scorecard]

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This is one of the lowest things i have ever seen in my life.
Look at that picture. The two young guys. The look on their face. The facts regarding who is actually responsible for this murder. The whole world has been watching. Everybody knows what's going on. But these people are still struggling to maintain the original, flawed idea that those two guys committed the murder.

And yesterday there was a one liner saying the British police who inspected the scene / watched the Thai police work will be releasing their report on 9 Jan.

Just hope it's available to the public.

[mrtoad]

Interesting thousands of posts of rumours ifs buts and maybes it amazes me that anyone who dares says something like jdinasia that circumstantial witnesses and DNA will most likely convict then suddenly he is queried whether he has a vested interest.

The very same people who conclude that these guys are innocent are first to cast the guilt stones at anyone with a different veiw.

And a bit of thai bashing for good measure.

The trial will go ahead and yet I haven't seen one headline about the British police observations in this case.

So either their happy with the investigation or just had a nice junket.

Exactly.

We have those on here like Siampolee who tries to overpower these threads by bullying, insulting, getting personal and accusing anyone who goes against the grain with them as either being conspirators for the State or being personally involved with those working on the investigation. I have to wonder where these people are and what they`re all about?

I predicted from the outset how this case would conclude and have no reasons to cast doubts on the verdict once this reaches the court. Those that disagree with the verdict and the way this investigation has been conducted can still go ahead on facebook publishing their crackpot conspiracy theories for the rest of eternity, but it won`t make the lightest different to the outcome of this case and will eventually fall on deaf ears once this case is concluded and laid to rest.

There's a surprise Office BJ once again showing full support for The BIB. Understandable given his family connections with said organisation, it pays rather well these days to be a policeman according to other reports.

As for the Brit investigation, they'll publish that in the New Year.

How anyone, with a bit of mental ability can actually believe that The BIB are honest must either be one, or smoking too much Thai stick.

[boomerangutang]

Tomorrow is going to be interesting

Not if you're the lads in the cells it won't be.

Why? If you have this information the media and the Burmese officials must have.

Surely this will save them.

According to my sources timeline, today is day 4. Three days and nothing said and remember the official report and findings do not come out until January. So this I am advised is a precursor to the full report. An earlier poster suggested that perhaps this was released to the RTP earlier in order to try and put a stop to the monkey court that is happening right now.

Why would day 4 be any different though. Unless they are in wait of the fully translated document, which is doubtful

Unless the report of a Brit report (sent clandestinely to Thai officials) is backed up by more sources, it's rumor (now I'm sounding like JD, sorry). If it was handed to Thai officials only, then that could be an added problem, not least because translating from English to Thai is a selective and subjective action. It would be like handing a report of Thaksin's tax history to only Thaksin, while expecting him to relay it to the rest of us to see - and expecting him to mend his ways (voluntarily pay all back taxes owed, ha ha).

[Mooner]

Just read a newspaper report about a amateur sleuth that claims to have indentified Jack the Ripper.

Then the article talks about why DNA evidence isn't a 100% accurate.

Quite pertinent considering the B2's apparent solid DNA evidence against them. Maybe that's why the Police needed some witnesses!

[Mooner]

Sorry! Forgot the link.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d/jack-ripper-four-reasons-dna-4182806

[loongdavid]

Just read a newspaper report about a amateur sleuth that claims to have indentified Jack the Ripper.

Then the article talks about why DNA evidence isn't a 100% accurate.

Quite pertinent considering the B2's apparent solid DNA evidence against them. Maybe that's why the Police needed some witnesses!

My exposure to cases that involved DNA evidence were always preceded by the forensic pathologist saying that his/her findings based upon laboratory tests were 99.99% accurate. This was always accepted by the courts.

[Mooner]

Just read a newspaper report about a amateur sleuth that claims to have indentified Jack the Ripper.

Then the article talks about why DNA evidence isn't a 100% accurate.

Quite pertinent considering the B2's apparent solid DNA evidence against them. Maybe that's why the Police needed some witnesses!

My exposure to cases that involved DNA evidence were always preceded by the forensic pathologist saying that his/her findings based upon laboratory tests were 99.99% accurate. This was always accepted by the courts.

Its not the test themselves, its human error that is the issue at hand. Please read the article.

[thailandchilli]

Just read a newspaper report about a amateur sleuth that claims to have indentified Jack the Ripper.

Then the article talks about why DNA evidence isn't a 100% accurate.

Quite pertinent considering the B2's apparent solid DNA evidence against them. Maybe that's why the Police needed some witnesses!

DNA can become easily contaminated

Contaminated and unreliable DNA was a key issue in the trial over Meredith Kercher's death. Forensic police entered the crime scene "while not wearing protective masks or hair caps". The integrity of the DNA is vital.

And we are all fully aware of the contaminated crime scene and the DNA not having been collected by experts in KT

Edited December 3, 2014 by thailandchilli

[loongdavid]

Just read a newspaper report about a amateur sleuth that claims to have indentified Jack the Ripper.

Then the article talks about why DNA evidence isn't a 100% accurate.

Quite pertinent considering the B2's apparent solid DNA evidence against them. Maybe that's why the Police needed some witnesses!

My exposure to cases that involved DNA evidence were always preceded by the forensic pathologist saying that his/her findings based upon laboratory tests were 99.99% accurate. This was always accepted by the courts.

Its not the test themselves, its human error that is the issue at hand. Please read the article.

I have read the article. Please read my contribution and accept it for what it said, not what you think it said.

[Mooner]

Just read a newspaper report about a amateur sleuth that claims to have indentified Jack the Ripper.

Then the article talks about why DNA evidence isn't a 100% accurate.

Quite pertinent considering the B2's apparent solid DNA evidence against them. Maybe that's why the Police needed some witnesses!

My exposure to cases that involved DNA evidence were always preceded by the forensic pathologist saying that his/her findings based upon laboratory tests were 99.99% accurate. This was always accepted by the courts.

Its not the test themselves, its human error that is the issue at hand. Please read the article.

I have read the article. Please read my contribution and accept it for what it said, not what you think it said.

My apologies! Speed reading!

My point is in some cases human error can be the issue. From photos and other experts opinions the DNA from this case is almost certainly contaminated.

[slipperx]

I am no defender of what passes for a justice system here but:

All cases are drawn out because the Procedure Code is hopeless. Adjournments the norm because it is a delaying tactic and there are no costs to it - in the West the adjourning party will usually pay the other sides cost of an adjournment but here one side can adjourn for no cost and little reason. Also the whole trial management is a joke when compared to more efficient systems.

It is usual for the press to limit reporting during a trial to avoid prejudice to either side. The fact cases take years here rather blunts the media story because people want breaking news not an outcome of something started 5 years ago.

Witnesses are examined, cross examined and re-examined just as in the West if the judge allows the witnesses into evidence. Perversion of justice can and does occur where witnesses are refused as that evidence is very hard to introduce at appeal or Dika appeal stage. That is why a judge can be bribed at the first stage and the effect last through the appeal stages. Retrials are also very difficult where a miscarriage of justice has occurred because the judiciary do not like to admit any fault in their judges or processes in normal Thsi fashion.

"The fact cases take years here..."

That is not a fact at all. Some cases do get drawn out, the majority don't.

You are right - some people plead guilty right away and criminals prosecuted by the prosecutor generally get short shrift. Civil cases? Takes years - in my cases it was two years even to get a hearing date before all the adjournment antics - four years to hear, 6 months appeal, years for Supreme Court appeal. It is a grinding system with no gears! Edited December 3, 2014 by slipperx

[JLCrab]

Just to note from Baker & McKenzie - Bangkok website:

We have been successfully involved in a wide range of complex cases at various Thai courts, including the Tax Court, Bankruptcy Court, the Labour Court, the Intellectual Property and International Trade Court and the Administrative Court, as well as the Thai Arbitration Institute.

http://www.bakermckenzie.com/Thailand/DisputeResolution/

[phuketandsee]

Andy Hall just tweeted:

"Prosecutor Koh Tao case confirms prosecute 6 charges against Zaw Lin/Wai Phyo tomorrow afternoon, evidence 100% solid"

https://twitter.com/Atomicalandy

[sambum]

Interesting thousands of posts of rumours ifs buts and maybes it amazes me that anyone who dares says something like jdinasia that circumstantial witnesses and DNA will most likely convict then suddenly he is queried whether he has a vested interest.

The very same people who conclude that these guys are innocent are first to cast the guilt stones at anyone with a different veiw.

And a bit of thai bashing for good measure.

The trial will go ahead and yet I haven't seen one headline about the British police observations in this case.

So either their happy with the investigation or just had a nice junket.

Do you really think anybody gives a toss what you think, you have proven time and time again that your credibility is zero. Have a nice day.

Yet his credibility is higher up the scale than yours.

Is that right, check how many likes my comment has received and rethink your arrogance sunshine.

It doesn't matter how many "likes" your comment has received, I would have thought that someone who is obviously following this case closely would know when the UK police are due to issue their report - January 2015 (as per many previous posts)

[loongdavid]

What prosecutor in any self-respecting country would ever divulge to the media what his intentions were or the weight of his evidence BEFORE the matter went to trial.

[Bleacher Bum East]

Just to note from Baker & McKenzie - Bangkok website:

We have been successfully involved in a wide range of complex cases at various Thai courts, including the Tax Court, Bankruptcy Court, the Labour Court, the Intellectual Property and International Trade Court and the Administrative Court, as well as the Thai Arbitration Institute.

http://www.bakermckenzie.com/Thailand/DisputeResolution/

Being very familiar with Baker & McKenzie and other large international law firms of its ilk, I would note this:

• The firm's website did not mention any criminal defense work in criminal proceedings in Thailand---so one of the world's largest and best-recognized international law firms makes no claim that it has been successfully involved in any criminal defense work in Thailand

• It would be very safe to say that in none of the cases they were successfully involved in did they represent a client with as little economic or social standing as the B2

• It would be very safe to say that in the vast majority of the cases they were successfully involved in they represented clients with a significant degree of economic and/or social standing

• I would make an educated guess that in some of the cases the firm was successfully involved in, they considered a long dragged-out court case to be part of their strategy for success

Edited December 3, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East