ATc delays leaving China.

[tgeezer]

Yesterday TG 665 from Shanghai was delayed pushback for almost two hours. There was no explanation and it has happened in Peking and the rumour is that ATC is looking for tea money! There could be other reasons of course but any legitimate reason would normally be transmitted to the airline.

I wonder if people have sufferred delays of this nature travelling from China, maybe we can work out why it happens.

[craigt3365]

China is getting a very bad reputation for delayed flights. Many due to the military.

[djhotsox]

Well, I will tell you exactly why it happens and especially why it happens in Shanghai. (from experience-former Captain-CX)

The reason is that all Chinese Airspace is military airspace. When the military decides that they won't be using a certain block of airspace they ring Beijing ATC and let them use it. Beijing is at the top of the peking* order so they get first dibs at slots and release some aircraft. Shanghai gets leftovers. It is out of the hands of ATC in Shanghai, it is strictly a military/airspace thing. Not unusual at all to sit on the ramp in a loaded aircraft waiting for a slot!

That's how it was explained to me anyhow, hope this helps!

(I know pecking/peking- just a little Chinese humour there lol)

[tgeezer]

Well, I will tell you exactly why it happens and especially why it happens in Shanghai. (from experience-former Captain-CX)

The reason is that all Chinese Airspace is military airspace. When the military decides that they won't be using a certain block of airspace they ring Beijing ATC and let them use it. Beijing is at the top of the peking* order so they get first dibs at slots and release some aircraft. Shanghai gets leftovers. It is out of the hands of ATC in Shanghai, it is strictly a military/airspace thing. Not unusual at all to sit on the ramp in a loaded aircraft waiting for a slot!

That's how it was explained to me anyhow, hope this helps!

(I know pecking/peking- just a little Chinese humour there lol)

Thanks very much, a good place to start to understand the system. I assume that inbound flights would also be affected, that would be a bigger problem would'nt it?

[djhotsox]

Well, I will tell you exactly why it happens and especially why it happens in Shanghai. (from experience-former Captain-CX)

The reason is that all Chinese Airspace is military airspace. When the military decides that they won't be using a certain block of airspace they ring Beijing ATC and let them use it. Beijing is at the top of the peking* order so they get first dibs at slots and release some aircraft. Shanghai gets leftovers. It is out of the hands of ATC in Shanghai, it is strictly a military/airspace thing. Not unusual at all to sit on the ramp in a loaded aircraft waiting for a slot!

That's how it was explained to me anyhow, hope this helps!

(I know pecking/peking- just a little Chinese humour there lol)

Thanks very much, a good place to start to understand the system. I assume that inbound flights would also be affected, that would be a bigger problem would'nt it?

Yes, inbound flights are subject to similar delays most days, and the unfortunate bit is you have to be ready to go when they release you (with no advance warning) so you have to sit on the ramp with all passengers onboard and doors closed, ready to accept the clearance once given and depart. The flow is controlled both ways, they (China) know who is coming and wouldn't have given a clearance to an aircraft unless they were certain of minimal delays on arrival.

It's always easier to manage/separate aircraft on the ground than once they are airborne of course. And I would much rather take the delay sitting on the ground than airborne in a holding pattern.

[tgeezer]

Well, I will tell you exactly why it happens and especially why it happens in Shanghai. (from experience-former Captain-CX)

The reason is that all Chinese Airspace is military airspace. When the military decides that they won't be using a certain block of airspace they ring Beijing ATC and let them use it. Beijing is at the top of the peking* order so they get first dibs at slots and release some aircraft. Shanghai gets leftovers. It is out of the hands of ATC in Shanghai, it is strictly a military/airspace thing. Not unusual at all to sit on the ramp in a loaded aircraft waiting for a slot!

That's how it was explained to me anyhow, hope this helps!

(I know pecking/peking- just a little Chinese humour there lol)

Thanks very much, a good place to start to understand the system. I assume that inbound flights would also be affected, that would be a bigger problem would'nt it?

Yes, inbound flights are subject to similar delays most days, and the unfortunate bit is you have to be ready to go when they release you (with no advance warning) so you have to sit on the ramp with all passengers onboard and doors closed, ready to accept the clearance once given and depart. The flow is controlled both ways, they (China) know who is coming and wouldn't have given a clearance to an aircraft unless they were certain of minimal delays on arrival.

It's always easier to manage/separate aircraft on the ground than once they are airborne of course. And I would much rather take the delay sitting on the ground than airborne in a holding pattern.

Is two hours a minimal delay?

The Chinese ATC must be able to guarantee a destination or divertion to arriving flights before takeoff which could be anything up to twelve hours before arrival, I can't see why much less notice could not be given to departures so enabling delayed boarding.

In your opinion is it possible that once the schedule is abrogated there is room for ATC to pick and choose who goes when?

[djhotsox]

Well, I will tell you exactly why it happens and especially why it happens in Shanghai. (from experience-former Captain-CX)

The reason is that all Chinese Airspace is military airspace. When the military decides that they won't be using a certain block of airspace they ring Beijing ATC and let them use it. Beijing is at the top of the peking* order so they get first dibs at slots and release some aircraft. Shanghai gets leftovers. It is out of the hands of ATC in Shanghai, it is strictly a military/airspace thing. Not unusual at all to sit on the ramp in a loaded aircraft waiting for a slot!

That's how it was explained to me anyhow, hope this helps!

(I know pecking/peking- just a little Chinese humour there lol)

Thanks very much, a good place to start to understand the system. I assume that inbound flights would also be affected, that would be a bigger problem would'nt it?

Yes, inbound flights are subject to similar delays most days, and the unfortunate bit is you have to be ready to go when they release you (with no advance warning) so you have to sit on the ramp with all passengers onboard and doors closed, ready to accept the clearance once given and depart. The flow is controlled both ways, they (China) know who is coming and wouldn't have given a clearance to an aircraft unless they were certain of minimal delays on arrival.

It's always easier to manage/separate aircraft on the ground than once they are airborne of course. And I would much rather take the delay sitting on the ground than airborne in a holding pattern.

Is two hours a minimal delay?

The Chinese ATC must be able to guarantee a destination or divertion to arriving flights before takeoff which could be anything up to twelve hours before arrival, I can't see why much less notice could not be given to departures so enabling delayed boarding.

In your opinion is it possible that once the schedule is abrogated there is room for ATC to pick and choose who goes when?

From what I understand it's "China" and the military or government could care less about commercial air traffic and that's that. They are communist. End of discussion. ATC does what they are told to do and it is first come first served as far as i know, they can't tell if it is 5 minutes or 50 minutes away as they don't know themselves. Hope this answers your questions?