The Broken Buddha

[camerata]

This 66-page PDF book on what's been wrong with Theravada since the beginning makes very interesting reading and much of it pertains to Thailand. The Broken Buddha was written by S. Dhammika, an Australian who spent 25 years as a Theravadin monk.

[Plus]

Can you summarize, 66 page is a long read. Please?

[camerata]

I don't think a summary would be very useful since it's the wealth of detail the author uses to support his argument that is interesting. Basically, he thinks that Theravada might not have been the best of the pre-Mahayana sects, but it was the only one that survived, largely because of its transmission to Sri Lanka. It tends to concentrate on suffering and gloom (negativity rather than positivity) and its conservative nature has resulted in a school obsessed with following rules and maintaining non-Buddhist cultural traditions at the expense of the real spirit and intent of the Buddha's words.

He thinks that the Theravadin monk's high status and pampering by lay people tends to produce an indolent and self-obsessed Sangha, and he bemoans the fact that Western fundamentalists such as Thanissaro tend to be against change and development rather than for it. Form over substance is the way he sees Theravada, going right back to Buddhaghosa and the early commentaries. I haven't read the final sections yet, but he seems to be calling for a new kind of Buddhism that is more positive, engaged, and willing to change when necessary. He doesn't mention Than Buddhadasa, which is strange since he was a prominent Theravadin reformer.

[chownah]

Strange that Thanissaro would be considered against change. Among orthodox Theravadins he is considered to be outrageously heretical and is viewed by them as wanting to change things in a way that will bring loss of the teaching. I have downloaded the article but haven't read it yet....I'll try to read it tomorrow.

[sabaijai]

I was not impressed with the author's argumentation for the most part. Nor did I come across any dissenting ideas I hadn't already heard or read elsewhere

The argument about Buddhism having an unnecessarily negative world outlook is commonly put forth (most famously by the Pope), and often refuted by Theravadins. Personally I find this critique hard to fathom. Even if the outlook were primarily negative, would that mean we need to lighten Buddhism up to make it less so?

The push to reform (and, arguably, the need for reform) is relatively constant in all schools of Buddhism. The dilemmas include 1) how to reform Buddism (whatever the school) without losing the essence or distorting the message, and 2) who decides on the cuts? The Kalama Sutta suggests it's best left to the individual. One of the less savoury western efforts to reform the Sangha resulted in the FWBO.

I agree with chownah, that there are more orthodox farang monks around than Ven Thanissaro. The American monk at Wat Bowon who is the chief confidante of the Sangharaja comes to mind. Ven Sumedho is another.

[bankei]

I got a slightly different impression of the book.

I feel the author was saying many things, including that Theravada, or modern Theravadin's, were lacking in the compassionate aspect, especially compared to Mahayana. The Buddha taught on compassion, non violence, generousity etc, but these teachings have been de-emphasised, in Theravada, while more attention has been paid to dry scholastic theories, meditations on different aspects - disgust of the body etc.

Then, there are some monks were overly concerned with following rules to the letter - adhearing to the letter, but not the spirit. I feel this was aimed at mostly Western Theravada monks, especially those of the so-called forest lineages. Some of these monks cause huge burdens to lay people by being inflexible (such as the monk that made a woman drive 50 km to pick up her son because he could not be alone with a woman, and then he refused to go with her and the son as the boy was only 10, not old enough to supervise etc). I see this attitude often in Thailand with monks generally being inconsiderate of pay people.

He also mentions double standards, such as monks not physically touching money in front of lay people, but actually handling it later. There are also monks that don't physically touch it, but use money. Some monks are keen on observing minor rules, or interpretations of minor rules, while openly breaking more serious rules.

Overall, the book is a bit negative because the author is criticising the negative aspects of the book. At the end he attempts to come up with some suggestions, but these are just silly and would be impossible to implement.

Bankei

[chownah]

Yeah...there are differences of opinoin about what it means to be compassionate. Some people think that reducing somone's immediate pain (or stress) is being compassionate. A Theravada Buddhist might feel that since life is filled with pain and that the pain is caused by factors x, y, and z as taught by the Buddha then it is more important to help them with factors x, y, and z rather than to deal with their immediate pain. There are lots of lay institutions in Buddhists cultures whose job is to help people with their immediate pains....for instance Thailand is a Buddhist culture and in Thailand they have hospitals, doctors, NGO's, etc. etc. whose jobs are to help people with their immediate pain....but only the Buddhist Sangha is working to help them with factors x, y, and z.

At least this is the theory of it. Of course in practice many monks don't help with factors x, y, and z...and alot of monks are not even that knowledgeable about factors x, y, and z.........but this is another story. In this post I'm just addressing the issue of compassion.

Edited August 19, 2006 by chownah

[sleepyjohn]

This 66-page PDF book on what's been wrong with Theravada since the beginning makes very interesting reading and much of it pertains to Thailand. The Broken Buddha was written by S. Dhammika, an Australian who spent 25 years as a Theravadin monk.

Here are three separate examples of quotes I have in my collection....you may think they are all pertinent to the state of Buddhism in this country:

Buddhism is a religion based on intelligence, science, knowledge, whose purpose is the destruction of suffering and the source of suffering. All paying of homage to sacred objects by means of rites and rituals, making offerings, or praying, is not Buddhism. The Buddha rejected all this as foolish, ridiculous, and unsound.

“Knowledge,skill, and ability are conducive to success and benefit and are auspicious omens, good in their own right, regardless of the movements of the heavenly bodies. With the benefits gained from these qualities, one will completely outstrip those foolish people who just sit making their astrological calculations.”.......Buddha

and perhaps most pithy of all:

(concerning worthless additions to “Buddhist culture”)

"The tumour has been spreading since the day the Buddha died, expanding in all directions right up to the present day. The tumour must not be identified as Buddhism itself. We should not grab at some worthless outgrowth"....BB

Having quoted all that, I have found a couple of people here it would have been hard to find elsewhere. I studied the skandhas with great and repeated help from a Thai monk friend who was indispensible. (I would recommend anyone who wants to study Buddhist practise to get to know the skandhas, what we are made up of, in fine detail until it's second nature. I really didn't come across anyone personally with such a full understanding until coming here). To a certain type of mind the rather scientific Abhidammic type teaching is the great value of the Theravada. It would be difficult to find anyone with the mental capacity of someone else I was lucky enough to meet, Sujin Boriharn Wanaket. Her "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" may not be for everyone, and may be considered far more than one needs to know, but if one can get even some sort of a handle on the fine detail she goes into then the simpler stuff one does need to know starts to become second nature. Even if one forgets all the detail, which is very likely, the sense of the teaching remains.

It's doubtful if these two marvellous people and other great ones I've come across would give a toss for all the gold on all the temple sculptures in Thailand.

Edited August 19, 2006 by sleepyjohn

[sabaijai]

I agree, Khun Sujin is one of Thailand's most formidable Abhidhamma teachers, well worth coming to Thailand (as a Buddhist, that is) just to study with her.

[sleepyjohn]

I agree, Khun Sujin is one of Thailand's most formidable Abhidhamma teachers, well worth coming to Thailand (as a Buddhist, that is) just to study with her.

Very glad you have come across her Sabaijai.

She really does live in a different realm to most.

I met her the morning of one of her best friend's funeral. After a small public event in which we were both speaking we were introduced and got into a discussion together. She invited me to the funeral so we could continue our discussion.

Now "normal" people wouldn't do something like that. I got the impression she had definitely moved on.

Some months later a whole pile of books arrived from Bangkok to the Prince Hotel where I then lived.

I had stupidly stopped expecting them.

What a marvellous example of focus and energy and giving.

Edited August 20, 2006 by sleepyjohn

[cosmos]

There is a lot of good points in Broken Buddha.

Buddhism in Thailand today, is a lot about culture and meaningless rituals.

I also belive that most people dont know so much about buddhism and a lot of monks either.

Somewhere the words of Buddha has been lost.

[camerata]

It isn't just in Thailand that the words of the Buddha have been neglected, it's all over the world. The Buddha had it right when he said just after his enlightenment:

Those dyed in lust, wrapped in darkness

Will never discern this abstruse Dhamma,

Which goes against the worldly stream,

Subtle, deep, and difficult to see.

Nothing could be simpler than the Abrahamic religions, where faith and obeying a simple set of commandments is the main requirement. No need for 20 years' meditation and a revolution in thinking there. I think we Westerners actually have an advantage in coming to Buddhism with a sceptical and analytical frame of mind.

The main flaw in Broken Buddha is that the Buddha himself recommended seclusion and a monk's life for attaining Nibbana. Monks would never get enlightened if they were out in the world running soup kitchens and the like. And if they didn't get enlightened, who would help the rest of us? The author seems to admire the engagement of the Mahayana Bodhisatta ideal, but there's a big difference between helping people and liberating them. Sayadaw U Pandita puts it this way: "If two people were stuck up to their necks in mud, would one be able to free the other?"

Theravada got it right in setting up an environment conducive to meditation and not having to make choices, but things got skewed because of human nature and the tendency to revert to old habits.

And yet Theravada produced two reformist back-to-basics movements in the past century and a half - the Thai Forest Tradition and the Burmese Satipatthana meditation method.

The author seems to be talking mainly from a monk's perspective. A Theravadin lay person is free to practise in whatever way he sees fit. In theory, Thais could set up lay organizations and run soup kitchens if they wanted, but they choose to make merit because that's what they grew up with and that's one of the things the Buddha recommended for lay followers.

[rikpa]

I read S. Dhammika's critique and felt it to be spot-on. I recall the day whe I first came to Thailand to Study Abhidhamma with Khun Sujin and was "young, dumb, and full of idealism" about the Dhamma in a place where it's been for such a long time.

Those illusions were destroyed after not-so-long there.

Thankfully.

It is sad to see such a beautiful system corrupted, but that is par for the course in the Kali Yuga, no?

Tibetan Buddhism is just as corrupt, though thankfully much of the transmission outside of Tibet is beginning to shed a lot of the ridiculousness that accrued to the Vajrayana over time.

What is sadder is to know that the Theravada might well soon die, as there are no new sources of inspiration, and it is not taking seed in the West--the only place it could survive.

[robitusson]

What is sadder is to know that the Theravada might well soon die, as there are no new sources of inspiration, and it is not taking seed in the West--the only place it could survive.

In Thailand maybe, what about India though? There's been a huge movement of lower caste people to Buddhism in recent years.

[rikpa]

What is sadder is to know that the Theravada might well soon die, as there are no new sources of inspiration, and it is not taking seed in the West--the only place it could survive.

In Thailand maybe, what about India though? There's been a huge movement of lower caste people to Buddhism in recent years.

Yes, Ambedkar's revolution has been the only source of the Dhamma in over a thousand years in its country of origin, though if you think about it, it is not so likely it will percolate up the social scale and become mainstream. Buddhism is almost a reactionary movement, as it it the only thing the lowest caste has to hang their hat on, namely, the Buddha's rejection of caste or varna.

[Oleg_Rus]

There is a lot of good points in Broken Buddha.

Buddhism in Thailand today, is a lot about culture and meaningless rituals.

I also belive that most people dont know so much about buddhism and a lot of monks either.

Somewhere the words of Buddha has been lost.

There is a lot of good points in Code Da Vinci.

Christianity in the world today, is a lot about culture and meaningless rituals.

I also belive that most people dont know so much about it and a lot of monks either.

Somewhere the words of prophet has been lost.

There is a lot of good points in Satanic Verses.

Islam in this world today, is a lot about culture and meaningless rituals.

I also belive that most people dont know so much about islam and a lot of monks either.

Somewhere the words of Muhamad has been lost.

and so it goes on and on...

[sabaijai]

There is a lot of good points in Broken Buddha.

Buddhism in Thailand today, is a lot about culture and meaningless rituals.

I also belive that most people dont know so much about buddhism and a lot of monks either.

Somewhere the words of Buddha has been lost.

There is a lot of good points in Code Da Vinci.

Christianity in the world today, is a lot about culture and meaningless rituals.

I also belive that most people dont know so much about it and a lot of monks either.

Somewhere the words of prophet has been lost.

There is a lot of good points in Satanic Verses.

Islam in this world today, is a lot about culture and meaningless rituals.

I also belive that most people dont know so much about islam and a lot of monks either.

Somewhere the words of Muhamad has been lost.

and so it goes on and on...

[gerrymob]

I have not read the Broken Buddah but what is coming out of this topic for me is that something has gone wrong with the original tenets of Buddhism. This can also be said of Chritianity, Judaism and Islam. This is partly to be expected as the teachings spread they were infiltrated by local conditions,religions etc. Is there any branch of any of the worlds major religions that adhere to the original teachings? I think not. I married into buddhism and found that the basic teachings of the dharma were what I had been looking for and have made it my way of life. I would now like to be ordained but am not sure what place in Thailand is the right one for me. What I see of some of the buddhist organisations in the UK, every time you walk through a door a payment is expected. I believe that the teaching of the dharma is not connected to fees, payments etc, but a donation of some description is welcome which I do not see as a problem. I believe that buddhism should learn to live in the twenty first century, especially in the west where it is not always possible for a monk to live in complete seclusion. I would prefer to be an ordained theravada monk, living in the UK and passing on the teachings of the Buddah to whoever wants it. Should I stay in a forest cave or a monastery for the rest of my life seeking enlightenment which all buddhists ordained or lay are looking for or go out into the community as a bhikku. I understand that the Buddah stated that to become enlightened would be nigh on impossible as a householder. Surely as a monk I could live in a temple seeking enlightenment in a village or town but also serve the community that supports me.

What buddhists should do is to go back to the original teachings of the Buddah and not read too many books written by people who give their interpretations of the Buddah's words. There is a need to get away from the academics and back to the dharma teachings in the simple language of the people.

I hope I haven't gone on too long and bored everybody.

[tc101]

I agree, Khun Sujin is one of Thailand's most formidable Abhidhamma teachers, well worth coming to Thailand (as a Buddhist, that is) just to study with her.

Where is she? Does she speak English? I will be there in January and want to meet the best English speaking teachers I can find.

[tycann]

Where is she? Does she speak English? I will be there in January and want to meet the best English speaking teachers I can find.

I don't know about her specifically, but if you are looking for English speaking teachers on all manner of Buddhist subjects, visit the International Program at MCU in Wat Mahahtat, Bangkok. You will be welcome to drop in on any of the academic classes, though some may be of higher quality than others.

Edited November 7, 2006 by tycann

[rikpa]

I don't know about her specifically, but if you are looking for English speaking teachers on all manner of Buddhist subjects, visit the International Program at MCU in Wat Mahahtat, Bangkok. You will be welcome to drop in on any of the academic classes, though some may be of higher quality than others.

I second this recommendation. Wat Mahatat has some really great teachers, and I had a great experience there.

[sabaijai]

I agree, Khun Sujin is one of Thailand's most formidable Abhidhamma teachers, well worth coming to Thailand (as a Buddhist, that is) just to study with her.

Where is she? Does she speak English? I will be there in January and want to meet the best English speaking teachers I can find.

Khun Sujin speaks excellent English. Her Dhamma Study Group is probably the oldest dhamma discussion group (in English) in Bangkok, around since the 70s. The group meets every Wednesday in Thonburi, and is attended by foreigners as well as Thais.

Dhamma Study & Support Foundation

Soi Charoen Nakhon 78

Bukkalo, Bangkok 10600

Tel: 0 2468 0239

[email protected]

[Passaddhi]

"What is sadder is to know that the Theravada might well soon die, as there are no new sources of inspiration, and it is not taking seed in the West--the only place it could survive."

A friend and I were recently discussing this, and though we've shared this concern we've also checked ourselves -- how much time does the seed need to take? Theravadin practices are a relatively recent import to the West (especially the U.S.), and it may simply take more than the handful of years it's had.

Is there any particular reason you feel it's not taking seed in the West?

Thanks!

[Austhaied]

"What is sadder is to know that the Theravada might well soon die, as there are no new sources of inspiration, and it is not taking seed in the West--the only place it could survive."

A friend and I were recently discussing this, and though we've shared this concern we've also checked ourselves -- how much time does the seed need to take? Theravadin practices are a relatively recent import to the West (especially the U.S.), and it may simply take more than the handful of years it's had.

Is there any particular reason you feel it's not taking seed in the West?

Thanks!

I think this could be why..

avijja [avijjaa]: Unawareness; ignorance; obscured awareness; delusion about the nature of the mind.

[jamesc2000]

Its ok if Buddhism dies.

The truth can never die.

[Passaddhi]

"I think this could be why..

avijja [avijjaa]: Unawareness; ignorance; obscured awareness; delusion about the nature of the mind."

Is there the impression that the Western mind is, in some fashion, not ready or conducive to understanding of dhamma? I'd think that we're good to go on that, but have some misgivings about how alien to us the direct support of a monastic community is, at least in the Theravadin way.

[rychrde]

This 66-page PDF book on what's been wrong with Theravada since the beginning makes very interesting reading and much of it pertains to Thailand. The Broken Buddha was written by S. Dhammika, an Australian who spent 25 years as a Theravadin monk.

The link no longer works.

The site is still there at http://www.ftbb.de/index.html but all articles seem to be in german.

any help, or pm me the English as attachment?

thanks

rych

[camerata]

Apparently the author revised it and it's now available at http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berl...enbuddhanew.pdf.

[rychrde]

Apparently the author revised it and it's now available at http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berl...enbuddhanew.pdf.

thanks

[AYJAYDEE]

Didnt Buddhadassa cover this in detail years ago?