EU court takes Hamas off terrorist organisations list

[up-country_sinclair]

Basically, this is a PR stunt (or trolling) by Hamas, and nothing more.

It is explicitly mentioned that nothing has actually changed with regard to current restrictions.

Indeed. Nothing has actually changed with regard to current restrictions. It is DISHONEST to imply otherwise.

The MEP vote was 498 to 88.

"There was a standing ovation in the chamber, as many feel this is a historic moment: it's the first time that the parliament has adopted a formal position on the issue.

Several EU officials said they were surprised that the five main political groups - especially the conservatives and the socialists - had found an agreement. The Germans were particularly hard to convince."

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-30516523

...sounds a bit more than just symbolic to me.

More to come in the next 12 months.

"More to come in the next 12 months."

On this there is no doubt.

This is just the beginning for the EU and its member states standing up to the injustice and immorality.

The clock is ticking louder and louder, but the apologists for the occupiers have their heads buried so deep in the sand that they can't hear it.

[Ulysses G.]

The EU is not rewarding the Hamas for anything. The court merely conceded that a procedural point was breached, following a similar case which served as precedent. The is clear reference to the decision not being a change of policy or status.

Not being a change of policy or status. Those are the facts despite the one-sided crystal balls of the obsessive Israel-bashers.

[chuckd]

If the EU spent as much time getting lathered up about the Islamic threat within their collective borders, they might have a little less time to bother with something over which they have no control.

This entire exercise is simply window dressing for the Islamic radicals they are so desperately trying to appease.

[Morch]

Basically, this is a PR stunt (or trolling) by Hamas, and nothing more.

It is explicitly mentioned that nothing has actually changed with regard to current restrictions.

Indeed. Nothing has actually changed with regard to current restrictions. It is DISHONEST to imply otherwise.

The MEP vote was 498 to 88.

"There was a standing ovation in the chamber, as many feel this is a historic moment: it's the first time that the parliament has adopted a formal position on the issue.

Several EU officials said they were surprised that the five main political groups - especially the conservatives and the socialists - had found an agreement. The Germans were particularly hard to convince."

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-30516523

...sounds a bit more than just symbolic to me.

More to come in the next 12 months.

You have taken my post out of context. Well done. I was specifically referring to the Hamas issue, which was the focus of the OP. As pointed out in my first post on this topic, the MEP vote is indeed the more important event of the two. The MEP vote was not about Hamas's status, which was not cheered.

As for not being symbolic - care to explain what the result actually means in real world terms?

[dexterm]

Basically, this is a PR stunt (or trolling) by Hamas, and nothing more.

It is explicitly mentioned that nothing has actually changed with regard to current restrictions.

Indeed. Nothing has actually changed with regard to current restrictions. It is DISHONEST to imply otherwise.

The MEP vote was 498 to 88.

"There was a standing ovation in the chamber, as many feel this is a historic moment: it's the first time that the parliament has adopted a formal position on the issue.

Several EU officials said they were surprised that the five main political groups - especially the conservatives and the socialists - had found an agreement. The Germans were particularly hard to convince."

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-30516523

...sounds a bit more than just symbolic to me.

More to come in the next 12 months.

You have taken my post out of context. Well done.

I was specifically referring to the Hamas issue, which was the focus of the OP.

As pointed out in my first post on this topic, the MEP vote is indeed the more important event of the two.

The MEP vote was not about Hamas's status, which was not cheered.

As for not being symbolic - care to explain what the result actually means in real world terms?

It means that if the peace process is deliberately delayed and delayed, then there is a considerable ground swell of goodwill towards Palestine in the EU parliament to get the process moving more swiftly, and that will include economic measures.

When folks get hit in the wallet, their hearts and minds tend to follow and they force the politicians to come to their senses via the ballot box, or they vote with their feet to migrate to greener pastures. Either way win win for the Palestinians.

[Ulysses G.]

Either way win win for the Palestinians.

The Palestinians have done nothing but lose for 66 years and mostly through their own efforts. Wishful thinking, refusing to honor existing agreements and refusing to compromise is not going to change that.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

The MEP vote was 498 to 88.

"There was a standing ovation in the chamber, as many feel this is a historic moment: it's the first time that the parliament has adopted a formal position on the issue.

Several EU officials said they were surprised that the five main political groups - especially the conservatives and the socialists - had found an agreement. The Germans were particularly hard to convince."

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-30516523

...sounds a bit more than just symbolic to me.

More to come in the next 12 months.

You have taken my post out of context. Well done.

I was specifically referring to the Hamas issue, which was the focus of the OP.

As pointed out in my first post on this topic, the MEP vote is indeed the more important event of the two.

The MEP vote was not about Hamas's status, which was not cheered.

As for not being symbolic - care to explain what the result actually means in real world terms?

It means that if the peace process is deliberately delayed and delayed, then there is a considerable ground swell of goodwill towards Palestine in the EU parliament to get the process moving more swiftly, and that will include economic measures.

When folks get hit in the wallet, their hearts and minds tend to follow and they force the politicians to come to their senses via the ballot box, or they vote with their feet to migrate to greener pastures. Either way win win for the Palestinians.

Guess we're having a wee bit of difficulty with the concepts of "actual" and "real life". There are currently no effective economic measures taken by the EU against Israel. The current EU decision does not include

anything to this effect of taking up such measures. So once again - what actual changes were effectively introduced as result of the vote?

There is no doubt, that there is a political climate shift with regards to the EU stand on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There is no doubt that the Palestinians are achieving higher level of support. The question was more to do with how, to date, these are translated to actual deeds. For example, most of the recent parliamentary votes in various EU countries recognizing Palestine as a state are essentially non-binding (meaning governments are not required to take further steps. Sweden may be the one exception) - hence, could be called symbolic. Does not mean that they do not reflect support for the Palestinians, but they do not, at this point in time, constitute policy change.

To address the "win win" assertion (again...) - the Palestinian economy is deeply intertwined with Israel, and basically cannot stand separately. Before going on one about it all being Israel's fault, may want to check historical data regarding Palestinian economy - things weren't too hot...well, never. Not under the Ottomans, not under the Brits, not under the Jordanians and the Egyptians. Notice that Abbas rarely, if ever, calls for introducing severe economic measures on Israel, and for a good reason. The blame for any economic hardship will eventually be directed at him (or on a wider scale, Fatah and the PA), and will play to the advantage of Hamas.

[VegasVic]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Great news.

The tide has turned, and only Israel and its apologists seem determined to pretend it hasn't.

The world has had enough, and this is only the beginning.

Totally agree, Australia has just experienced the religion of peace, so did Pakistan .

Indeed tide is turning

[Bakeman]

Ignorant decision EU court!!!!

[Morch]

Ignorant decision EU court!!!!

Not at all.

The decision is merely procedural and based on recent precedent (Google Tamil Tigers in the same context). The court's ruling intentionally leaves current restrictions in place and provides ample time for re-submitting Hamas as a terrorist organization. As this time around it will be done with greater detail and in accordance with required procedure, there will be less chances of this status being overturned. Three months or so down the road, there will be a TVF topic with a headline "EU reaffirms Hamas's designation as a terrorist organization" - and the mirror image of the current discussion will be taken up....

[Ulysses G.]

Three months or so down the road, there will be a TVF topic with a headline "EU reaffirms Hamas's designation as a terrorist organization" - and the mirror image of the current discussion will be taken up....

Indubitably.

[dexterm]

Morch (i think thread above full)

>>Guess we're having a wee bit of difficulty with the concepts of "actual" and "real life". There are currently no effective economic measures taken by the EU against Israel.

...I never said there were. Read more carefully. Notice I used the conditional mood.."If the peace process is deliberately delayed and delayed..

And let's not go back too far in history as regards the Palestinian economy. The Palestinians after all were cultivating the land long before the early Zionists arrived in the 1880s.

History plays some strange tricks. Israelis may one day find themselves crossing the border to shop in Palestine to buy EU goods they can't get in Israel because of a boycott or non membership.

I'm amazed that for an apparently intelligent person you pessimistically only seem to see the smaller picture. Don't you ever think about where Israel may be in 30 - 50 years time?

Edited December 21, 2014 by dexterm

[Morch]

Morch (i think thread above full)

>>Guess we're having a wee bit of difficulty with the concepts of "actual" and "real life". There are currently no effective economic measures taken by the EU against Israel.

...I never said there were. Read more carefully. Notice I used the conditional mood.."If the peace process is deliberately delayed and delayed..

And let's not go back too far in history as regards the Palestinian economy. The Palestinians after all were cultivating the land long before the early Zionists arrived in the 1880s.

History plays some strange tricks. Israelis may one day find themselves crossing the border to shop in Palestine to buy EU goods they can't get in Israel because of a boycott or non membership.

I'm amazed that for an apparently intelligent person you pessimistically only seem to see the smaller picture. Don't you ever think about where Israel may be in 30 - 50 years time?

You have taken my post out of context. Well done.

I was specifically referring to the Hamas issue, which was the focus of the OP.

As pointed out in my first post on this topic, the MEP vote is indeed the more important event of the two.

The MEP vote was not about Hamas's status, which was not cheered.

As for not being symbolic - care to explain what the result actually means in real world terms?

It means that if the peace process is deliberately delayed and delayed, then there is a considerable ground swell of goodwill towards Palestine in the EU parliament to get the process moving more swiftly, and that will include economic measures.

When folks get hit in the wallet, their hearts and minds tend to follow and they force the politicians to come to their senses via the ballot box, or they vote with their feet to migrate to greener pastures. Either way win win for the Palestinians.

Guess we're having a wee bit of difficulty with the concepts of "actual" and "real life". There are currently no effective economic measures taken by the EU against Israel. The current EU decision does not include

anything to this effect of taking up such measures. So once again - what actual changes were effectively introduced as result of the vote?

There is no doubt, that there is a political climate shift with regards to the EU stand on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There is no doubt that the Palestinians are achieving higher level of support. The question was more to do with how, to date, these are translated to actual deeds. For example, most of the recent parliamentary votes in various EU countries recognizing Palestine as a state are essentially non-binding (meaning governments are not required to take further steps. Sweden may be the one exception) - hence, could be called symbolic. Does not mean that they do not reflect support for the Palestinians, but they do not, at this point in time, constitute policy change.

To address the "win win" assertion (again...) - the Palestinian economy is deeply intertwined with Israel, and basically cannot stand separately. Before going on one about it all being Israel's fault, may want to check historical data regarding Palestinian economy - things weren't too hot...well, never. Not under the Ottomans, not under the Brits, not under the Jordanians and the Egyptians. Notice that Abbas rarely, if ever, calls for introducing severe economic measures on Israel, and for a good reason. The blame for any economic hardship will eventually be directed at him (or on a wider scale, Fatah and the PA), and will play to the advantage of Hamas.

There....much easier to relate when quoting, instead of using one line out of a post....

So, to get this straight - first you claim that the EU vote is more than symbolic (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/784884-eu-court-takes-hamas-off-terrorist-organisations-list/?p=8821763), but when asked what it means in actual real life terms, the answer appeases to be an imaginary view of what may be. That is the difficulty I was referring to. So once again, what actual implications does this vote carry? As opposed to what it may or may not be its possible future effects.

Was there any objective comment regarding the Palestinian economy which was somehow related to the content of my post other than the usual agenda driven slogans?

Palestine - a member of the EU. Right. Think Turkey, compare to Palestine. Rethink your position.

Israel may or may not be in a sorry state within 30-50 years. What does it have to do with the original question, with the OP, or with the current state of the Palestinian economy?

[i claudius]

what is the diffrence berween the French resistance against the German occupiers of thier country during world war 2 and Hamas who are fighting Israili occupiers of thier country The German occupiers called the French resistance "terrorists"..In the same way the Isrealis call Hamas "terrorists". Double standards!!

The French were not fireing rockets daily into Germany and targeting civilians if i remember rightly ,but please enlighten us .if this was not the case .

[dexterm]

what is the diffrence berween the French resistance against the German occupiers of thier country during world war 2 and Hamas who are fighting Israili occupiers of thier country The German occupiers called the French resistance "terrorists"..In the same way the Isrealis call Hamas "terrorists". Double standards!!

The French were not fireing rockets daily into Germany and targeting civilians if i remember rightly ,but please enlighten us .if this was not the case .

In the recent Gaza conflict:

2167 Palestinians were killed of which 70% were civilians including over 600 innocent children

and,71 Israelis were killed of which 93% were IDF soldiers

Go figure who was targeting civilians, and who the real terrorists are.

[Ulysses G.]

Go figure who was targeting civilians, and who the real terrorists are.

Hamas were targeting civilians, They always do. Israel goes out of their way to avoid it, but they are impossible to avoid with the Hamas terrorists purposely launching rockets from areas that are heavily populated and using civilians as human shields. The IDF’s civilian-to-terrorist death ratio is the lowest in the world

[Boon Mee]

That will be next. They are carrying on the traditions of Neville Chamberlain.

Does anyone give 2 hoots what those weenies in the EU think?

[i claudius]

what is the diffrence berween the French resistance against the German occupiers of thier country during world war 2 and Hamas who are fighting Israili occupiers of thier country The German occupiers called the French resistance "terrorists"..In the same way the Isrealis call Hamas "terrorists". Double standards!!

The French were not fireing rockets daily into Germany and targeting civilians if i remember rightly ,but please enlighten us .if this was not the case .

In the recent Gaza conflict:

2167 Palestinians were killed of which 70% were civilians including over 600 innocent children

and,71 Israelis were killed of which 93% were IDF soldiers

Go figure who was targeting civilians, and who the real terrorists are.

I know who they are HAMAS. during ww11 the Nazis tried to take over Europe we faught them ,more civilians were killed when we bombed their cities , was that Brtains fault ,or Hitlers?

[Morch]

That will be next. They are carrying on the traditions of Neville Chamberlain.

Does anyone give 2 hoots what those weenies in the EU think?

Well, for one thing, Israel does.

Otherwise, Israeli leaders wouldn't bother commenting on recent decisions taken by EU governments nor invest efforts in trying

to change them.

[Morch]

what is the diffrence berween the French resistance against the German occupiers of thier country during world war 2 and Hamas who are fighting Israili occupiers of thier country The German occupiers called the French resistance "terrorists"..In the same way the Isrealis call Hamas "terrorists". Double standards!!

The French were not fireing rockets daily into Germany and targeting civilians if i remember rightly ,but please enlighten us .if this was not the case .

In the recent Gaza conflict:

2167 Palestinians were killed of which 70% were civilians including over 600 innocent children

and,71 Israelis were killed of which 93% were IDF soldiers

Go figure who was targeting civilians, and who the real terrorists are.

You are talking about casualties. No argues that there were more casualties on the Palestinian side.

Hamas contentiously launched attacks against Israeli civilians, this is a matter of record, of facts, and even the Hamas does

not deny it. That their efforts were, on the whole, frustrated, was due to Israel's government doing enough to protect its own

citizens - not through any lack of trying by Hamas.

There was a lot of coverage regarding Hamas tunnels, bunkers and leadership coming out largely unscathed by the horrible

destruction above ground. There were no similar reports about these underground facilities being used to protect the Gazan

population. On the contrary - there were calls for the citizen to go up on the roofs and face attacks, there were Hamas rocket

launchers and other facilities intentionally embedded near or within densely populated urban areas. Not exactly a benelovent

set of priorities regarding their own people.

Hamas casualty figures are almost always a contested issue, and with good cause. As an example, on parallel topic the figure

is claimed to be 500 children, while here it is 600.

[dexterm]

what is the diffrence berween the French resistance against the German occupiers of thier country during world war 2 and Hamas who are fighting Israili occupiers of thier country The German occupiers called the French resistance "terrorists"..In the same way the Isrealis call Hamas "terrorists". Double standards!!

The French were not fireing rockets daily into Germany and targeting civilians if i remember rightly ,but please enlighten us .if this was not the case .

In the recent Gaza conflict:

2167 Palestinians were killed of which 70% were civilians including over 600 innocent children

and,71 Israelis were killed of which 93% were IDF soldiers

Go figure who was targeting civilians, and who the real terrorists are.

Hamas casualty figures are almost always a contested issue, and with good cause. As an example, on parallel topic the figure

is claimed to be 500 children, while here it is 600.

So what's a few hundred dead innocent children murdered by Israeli missiles give or take 100?

Your indifference is as callous as other Israeli apologists.

The bottom line for me is that Israel deliberately started the recent Gazan war. Spare the spin... we've been there many times before. I know exactly the chronology of events

The Israelis are the ones who started the war and then needlessly used disproportionate force. The stats show the blood that is on their hands.

[Ulysses G.]

So what's a few hundred dead innocent children murdered by Israeli missiles give or take 100?

A "child" is considered anyone under 18, including teenage terrorists fighting for Hamas. A lot of those "children" were anything but "innocent".

[i claudius]

Dexterm. i am not an Israeli apologist ,i look at both sides ,on the Israeli side i see a govt that looks after its population ,making sure that they come to no harm and who build a thriving modern nation ,on the Palestinian side i see a govt whos avowed intent is to kill and wipe out Israel while taking no care whatsoever of its population ,who it seems are content to live in third world conditions and make no effort to modernise their country instead of just fighting all the time .

Next i am sure you are thinking that Israel should not exist ,well Britain and America took the land and gave it to Israel ,it exists it will continue to exist as did the Norsemen when they "invaded" Britain ,would it not be better if Hamas worked to make their country a better place to live in or is that to much to ask.?

[Ulysses G.]

Dexterm. i am not an Israeli apologist

You are a REALIST.

[Morch]

The French were not fireing rockets daily into Germany and targeting civilians if i remember rightly ,but please enlighten us .if this was not the case .

In the recent Gaza conflict:

2167 Palestinians were killed of which 70% were civilians including over 600 innocent children

and,71 Israelis were killed of which 93% were IDF soldiers

Go figure who was targeting civilians, and who the real terrorists are.

Hamas casualty figures are almost always a contested issue, and with good cause. As an example, on parallel topic the figure

is claimed to be 500 children, while here it is 600.

So what's a few hundred dead innocent children murdered by Israeli missiles give or take 100?

Your indifference is as callous as other Israeli apologists.

The bottom line for me is that Israel deliberately started the recent Gazan war. Spare the spin... we've been there many times before. I know exactly the chronology of events

The Israelis are the ones who started the war and then needlessly used disproportionate force. The stats show the blood that is on their hands.

Partial quoting of posts is almost a dexterm trademark.

How about addressing posts, even if only focusing on one line, in the the context of the entire post?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/784884-eu-court-takes-hamas-off-terrorist-organisations-list/?p=8838255

The point made regarding routine inaccuracies is that they lead to made up and inaccurate facts acquire a reality of their

own. This makes discussion less to do with real world, and more with agenda and slogans.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/785060-palestinian-peace-plan-put-before-un/?p=8826474

Playing that emotional angle over and over again does not make a valid point to counter my post. Have another read of

an almost identical exchange on a parallel topic. This is not a competition over which poster expresses more faux emotions

in his posts - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/785060-palestinian-peace-plan-put-before-un/?p=8838341 .

The bottom line is that the Hamas is still effectively designated as a terrorist organization by the EU. This is what the topic

is about, not your biased take of Israel's action. Agenda driven assertions aside, Israel is not designated as a terrorist state

by the EU, while the Hamas is. Bold key words all you like, it will not change the topic, nor the fact that your views are not

gospel.

[Ulysses G.]

The bottom line is that the Hamas is still effectively designated as a terrorist organization by the EU.

That is it, in a nutshell.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

I know exactly the chronology of events

<snip>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

[Lissos]

Hamas contentiously launched attacks against Israeli civilians, this is a matter of record, of facts, and even the Hamas does not deny it. That their efforts were, on the whole, frustrated, was due to Israel's government doing enough to protect its own citizens - not through any lack of trying by Hamas. There was a lot of coverage regarding Hamas tunnels, bunkers and leadership coming out largely unscathed by the horrible destruction above ground. There were no similar reports about these underground facilities being used to protect the Gazan population. On the contrary - there were calls for the citizen to go up on the roofs and face attacks, there were Hamas rocket launchers and other facilities intentionally embedded near or within densely populated urban areas. Not exactly a benelovent set of priorities regarding their own people.

Indeed. Iron dome largely did its job, something that profoundly irritates Israel's more foaming at the mouth critics who then try to pass the Hamas launches off as - "mere fireworks". We hear a lot of whining against Israel about "disproportionate responses", but it is based on an assumption that if al Qassam brigades and others of their kind 'had' the means to deliver truly devastating weaponary that could slaughter Israelis en masse, they would not use it, or would remain fair and balanced in some kind of 'gentlemenly war'. I say they would use such weaponry, without hesitation. I don't think regional players want that though, because then it has the potential to dent the much refered 'David VS Goliath' mythology in the culture. Regional players fund and arm their attack dog only 'so' much, enough to keep it alive but not so much that it can gorge itself and become a ferocious rotweiller.