Palestinian peace plan put before UN

[Steely Dan]

The OP should be changed to Palestinians look to force unilateral peace plan without negotiation. To try and enforce a deadline on the Israelis without a reciprocal commitment to anything is pie in the sky nonsense. How about a commitment from all Palestinian factions to renounce violence, recognize Israel's right to exist and to stop preaching hatred from cradle to grave through it's media?

[dexterm]

The OP should be changed to Palestinians look to force unilateral peace plan without negotiation. To try and enforce a deadline on the Israelis without a reciprocal commitment to anything is pie in the sky nonsense. How about a commitment from all Palestinian factions to renounce violence, recognize Israel's right to exist and to stop preaching hatred from cradle to grave through it's media?

Israel has been dragging its heels for 47 years supposedly negotiating a peace deal but all the while imposing their own unilateral plan grabbing more land, ethnically cleansing Palestinians, building colonies and annexing Jerusalem. Enough already.

The PA, all Arab countries, and Iran have agreed to recognize Israel years ago, secure borders, exchange of ambassadors, trade agreements... the works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Hamas has agreed to an indefinite truce, and a Palestinian state within the 67 borders which implies an Israeli state on the other side of the fence. With the benefits of peace and prosperity they would eventually be sidelined, as will the Zionist extremists. The Hamas charter and Likud's greater Israel will become museum relics.

This is actually doing Israel a favour. Anything smaller than the 67 borders would not be a viable state when the Palestinian diaspora returns. Any attempt by Israel to completely ethnically cleanse all Palestinians from the West Bank I don’t think even the USA would allow and would lead to more war. So if Israel is not careful it will be left with a one sate solution having to absorb 5 million Palestinians, and when they become equal citizens, inviting another 4 million in the diaspora.

The writing is on the wall. It's time Israel joined the 21st century.

[Ulysses G.]

You are trying to distract from the LIE as posters like you usually do. You said, "the Israelis did slaughter a school full of children, recently in Gaza. Over 500 children in total." PROVE IT.

The U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports that 2,104 Palestinians were killed in Gaza

That is NOT 500 children in a school in Gaza as claimed. That was a blatant LIE and you and your ilk refuse to admit it as per usual. Why do you types have to mostly rely on obvious fabrications to make your case?

Edited December 19, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

The PA, all Arab countries, and Iran have agreed to recognize Israel years ago, secure borders, exchange of ambassadors, trade agreements... the works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

As usual, you did not read your link very well. Hamas has NOT accepted the plan and they control half off the Palestinian government. The deal can NOT proceed without them. Your own link disproves your fantasy.

That month, Mahmoud al-Zahar declared unequivocally: "Hamas will never change its position regardless of the pressure's intensity" and "We will never recognize the Arab initiative."[48]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

[dexterm]

The PA, all Arab countries, and Iran have agreed to recognize Israel years ago, secure borders, exchange of ambassadors, trade agreements... the works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

As usual, you did not read your link very well. Hamas has NOT accepted the plan and they control half off the Palestinian government. The deal can NOT proceed without them. Your own link disproves your fantasy.

That month, Mahmoud al-Zahar declared unequivocally: "Hamas will never change its position regardless of the pressure's intensity" and "We will never recognize the Arab initiative."[48]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Read my post more carefully,UG. I did not include Hamas in the Arab Peace Initiative link... I said the PA, all Arab countries and Iran. Then read the next paragraph for Hamas. Moreover I stated quite clearly that they will not recognize Israel but will accept an Israel within 67 borders.

I would expect a peace deal would go to a referendum of all Palestinians, and all Israelis. We would see who carries most weight then on both sides of the border...the extremists or the majority who want simply peace.

Hamas have on many occasions offered an indefinite truce.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915

Edited December 19, 2014 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

The PA, all Arab countries, and Iran have agreed to recognize Israel years ago, secure borders, exchange of ambassadors, trade agreements... the works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

As usual, you did not read your link very well. Hamas has NOT accepted the plan and they control half off the Palestinian government. The deal can NOT proceed without them. Your own link disproves your fantasy.

That month, Mahmoud al-Zahar declared unequivocally: "Hamas will never change its position regardless of the pressure's intensity" and "We will never recognize the Arab initiative."[48]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Read my post more carefully,UG.

Why? It is the usual dishonest spin and nonsense. Your link clearly states that "Hamas and Islamic Jihad are not prepared to accept anything short of the entire Palestine occupied in 1940s". That means NO ISRAEL at all and - of course - will never happen. As you have been told many times an "indefinite truce" means nothing. Hamas can violate it at will - as they have done constantly.

Hamas will not recognize Israel. This is a red line that cannot be crossed.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/05/interview-abu-marzouk-hamas-israel-fatah-reconciliation.html#ixzz3MItgkuZo

Edited December 19, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[mania]

There was a meeting between Netanyau and Kerry on Monday to discuss the upcoming Palestinian proposal. Somewhat

unusual, but Netanyahu declined to update both the media and Israeli diplomats on their exact content and conclusions,

if there were any. Hard to say whether this means he got the assurances he sought or the opposite. Didn't look too happy

coming out of the meeting, but then was going on about the USA's friendship later on this week.

I had the same impression (Netanyau not happy) from photos & stories I saw about this meeting with Kerry.

Also the wording in a few of the articles I read went as follows...

"Before the two convened in Rome, Israel put the United States on notice it expected Washington to exercise its Security Council veto against any resolutions setting a time-frame."

This is the type of thing that will not float well at this time. As it reinforces what many already think & do not like about what appears to

be a very one sided friendship at times of stress.

[dexterm]

The PA, all Arab countries, and Iran have agreed to recognize Israel years ago, secure borders, exchange of ambassadors, trade agreements... the works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

As usual, you did not read your link very well. Hamas has NOT accepted the plan and they control half off the Palestinian government. The deal can NOT proceed without them. Your own link disproves your fantasy.

That month, Mahmoud al-Zahar declared unequivocally: "Hamas will never change its position regardless of the pressure's intensity" and "We will never recognize the Arab initiative."[48]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Read my post more carefully,UG.

Why? It is the usual dishonest spin and nonsense. Your link clearly states that "Hamas and Islamic Jihad are not prepared to accept anything short of the entire Palestine occupied in 1940s". That means NO ISRAEL at all and - of course - will never happen. As you have been told many times an "indefinite truce" means nothing. Hamas can violate it at will - as they have done constantly.

Hamas will not recognize Israel. This is a red line that cannot be crossed.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/05/interview-abu-marzouk-hamas-israel-fatah-reconciliation.html#ixzz3MItgkuZo

For the 3rd time, UG, read my post again. I have underlined the relevant bits for you.

I said Hamas will not recognize Israel, but it will accept it with an indefinite truce within its 67 borders.

Your Hamas quote was 2006. My quote was 2008.

Attitudes change, compromises are made...that's how peace happens. Israel should try it sometime.

[Ulysses G.]

I said Hamas will not recognize Israel, but it will accept it with an indefinite truce within its 67 borders.

That does absolutely no effect on the initiative you have been touting as a done deal and it does absolutely nothing for Israel's security concerns. It has absolutely no meaning and would only benefit Hamas. The whole idea is just plain foolish.

[dexterm]

I said Hamas will not recognize Israel, but it will accept it with an indefinite truce within its 67 borders.

That does absolutely no effect on the initiative you have been touting as a done deal and it does absolutely nothing for Israel's security concerns. It has absolutely no meaning and would only benefit Hamas. The whole idea is just plain foolish.

That's what negotiations are all about....of which there have very few lately. I'm sure Israel could address it's security concerns as part of negotiations.

Once an agreement has been reached and both sides realize the benefits of years of peace and prosperity, extremists on both sides would be sidelined. If not and Israel is truly threatened...not just by a handful of hotheads who want to disrupt the peace (there will always be some of them on both sides) ..Israel is the 4th most powerful military force in the world with the most powerful country as its chief ally, and they could reverse the whole process over a long weekend.

You obviously prefer the status quo of a managed conflict. I have never seen you offer a sensible alternative peace plan that would be acceptable to both sides.

Whether you like it or not, peace will happen one day. If the Jordanian plan and global recognition helps, all the better.

[Ulysses G.]

You obviously prefer the status quo of a managed conflict.

Wrong again. I prefer that the Palestinians stop the terrorism, honor their agreements, recognize Israel as a Jewish state and sign a peace treaty. They have avoided doing so for 66 years and have ended up in a purgatory of their own making.

[dexterm]

You obviously prefer the status quo of a managed conflict.

Wrong again. I prefer that the Palestinians stop the terrorism, honor their agreements, recognize Israel as a Jewish state and sign a peace treaty. They have avoided doing so for 66 years and have ended up in a purgatory of their own making.

Palestinians have already and can do all of those things bar Netanyahu's racist demand. Yasser Arafat recognized the secular democratic state of Israel years ago. No Palestinian nor any other country in the world (maybe not even USA), nor even a large number of current Israeli MPs would recognize the Jewish supremacist state of Israel.

Edited December 19, 2014 by dexterm

[hard124get]

And neither are Zionists.

Go ahead and say what you really mean. We all know that "Zionists" is just a euphemism.

Supporting the existence of Israel as a state with a Jewish character makes one a Zionist. That's roughly 90 percent of Jews in the world. So folks, do the math ...

Supporting the theft of land makes one a zionist. Real Jews oppose zionism, as it is contrary to their religious beliefs.

[Jingthing]

And neither are Zionists.

Go ahead and say what you really mean. We all know that "Zionists" is just a euphemism.

Supporting the existence of Israel as a state with a Jewish character makes one a Zionist. That's roughly 90 percent of Jews in the world. So folks, do the math ...

Supporting the theft of land makes one a zionist. Real Jews oppose zionism, as it is contrary to their religious beliefs.

That's just hate speech. Welcome to my ignore list.

[Morch]

Yes zionists hold up schools and shoot kids, zionists also take hostages in broad daylight, they also enslave and rape women , create ghetto's in every country, live off social welfare, fill up jails and attack police.

Yes, they do all of those, and much worse.

And, naturally, you could come up with cases where the IDF "enslaved and raped women"....? Just as pointer - a couple of years back, there was a left-wing/feminist oriented academic research (it was questioned if it could be called that) published in Israel. The main "conclusion" appeared to be that IDF soldiers negative views regarding rape of Palestinian women marks then as racist. Yeah...one of them facepalm moments

The IDF is not an army of angels, but it is certainly not one of the worst around. There are enough concrete allegation to go by without resorting to this sort of nonsense.

[Ulysses G.]

You obviously prefer the status quo of a managed conflict.

Wrong again. I prefer that the Palestinians stop the terrorism, honor their agreements, recognize Israel as a Jewish state and sign a peace treaty. They have avoided doing so for 66 years and have ended up in a purgatory of their own making.

Palestinians have already and can do all of those things bar Netanyahu's racist demand.

The same old falsehood. As has been pointed out numerous times. Hamas - 1/2 of the Palestinian government - refuses to do those things. Have you EVER written an accurate post?

[Morch]

You are trying to distract from the LIE as posters like you usually do. You said, "the Israelis did slaughter a school full of children, recently in Gaza. Over 500 children in total." PROVE IT.

Washington Post: "In its most recent count, the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports that 2,104 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, including 1,462 civilians, among them 495 children and 253 women. Those U.N. numbers would mean that 69 percent of the total killed were civilians."

You will probably find some twisted way to say this is not proof. The world saw the slaughter on film.

Your original post claims the IDF slaughtered a school full of children. The link appearing in your (failed) quote does not include anything of the sort. Would pointing out claimed event is not mentioned considered "twisted"?

[Jingthing]

Yes zionists hold up schools and shoot kids, zionists also take hostages in broad daylight, they also enslave and rape women , create ghetto's in every country, live off social welfare, fill up jails and attack police.

Yes, they do all of those, and much worse.

And, naturally, you could come up with cases where the IDF "enslaved and raped women"....?

Just as pointer - a couple of years back, there was a left-wing/feminist oriented academic research (it was questioned if it could

be called that) published in Israel. The main "conclusion" appeared to be that IDF soldiers negative views regarding rape of

Palestinian women marks then as racist. Yeah...one of them facepalm moments

The IDF is not an army of angels, but it is certainly not one of the worst around. There are enough concrete allegation to go

by without resorting to this sort of nonsense.

Morch, you know I respect your knowledge of these issues which much exceeds my own, and heroic of you to bother to try to reason with the most irrationally rabid "anti-Zionist" of posters. But logic doesn't really matter in such cases, does it? I think it's good that you do though. Their POV of you won't ever be changed, but it's good for readers to see absurdly extremist views countered.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[konying]

Yes, they do all of those, and much worse.

Not that i do not trust you , but would love to see little more than "because you said so"

[konying]

And neither are Zionists.

Go ahead and say what you really mean. We all know that "Zionists" is just a euphemism.

Supporting the existence of Israel as a state with a Jewish character makes one a Zionist. That's roughly 90 percent of Jews in the world. So folks, do the math ...

Supporting the theft of land makes one a zionist. Real Jews oppose zionism, as it is contrary to their religious beliefs.

Real Jews? there are fake or copy Jews?

[Jingthing]

Real Jews? there are fake or copy Jews?

He's taking cover behind a very tiny minority of Jews, the tiny minority of ultra religious Jews who are anti-Zionist extremists.

[Wat dee]

Look who's talking!

Why don't you PROVE that I am wrong about Israel NOT "slaughtering a school full of over 500 children in Gaza" for starters, since you are insinuating that I "virtually never write a completely honest post"?. Posting stupid accusations that you and your comrades can't prove and running away seems more your style.

You are lost cause. There is nothing, proved or not, that would change your extreme right zionist beliefs.

[Ulysses G.]

In other words, the false claim that Israel "slaughtered a school full of over 500 children in Gaza" was an outright LIE and you keep trying to divert attention from that FACT - very typical of the obsessive Israel-bashers on this forum.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[up-country_sinclair]

In other words, the false claim that Israel "slaughtered a school full of over 500 children in Gaza" was an outright LIE and you keep trying to divert attention from that FACT - very typical of the obsessive Israel-bashers on this forum.

Pathetic.

the only fact (sorry, apparently that should be "FACT") that matters is that 495 children were slaughtered by Israel. The only one who is trying to divert attention is you-- with a silly semantic argument.

[Ulysses G.]

Another one of the usual crew trying to provide cover for a BOLDFACED LIE.

Er.... the Israelis did slaughter a school full of children, recently in Gaza. Over 500 children in total.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[up-country_sinclair]

What's the lie? Sorry, what's the BOLDFACED LIE?

Is it the "over 500" as opposed to UN number of 495? OK, he was off by six children who were killed by Israel. Congrats!

Is it the "a school full of children"? Perhaps he meant to write "schools full of children". Did it ever occur to you that not everyone on this forum is a native speaker of English? Maybe it was a typo, for God's sake.

But again the only person trying to divert attention from the fact (damn, sorry, FACT) that Israel killed about 500 children is you.

[Ulysses G.]

What's the lie? Sorry, what's the BOLDFACED LIE?

As you well know, the LIE is that "the Israelis slaughtered a school full of children, recently in Gaza. Over 500 children in total." It is complete FICTION, which is why you and your ilk keep trying to make excuses, justifications and distortions instead of providing evidence of something that never happened - as per usual.

[Asiantravel]

In other words, the false claim that Israel "slaughtered a school full of over 500 children in Gaza" was an outright LIE and you keep trying to divert attention from that FACT - very typical of the obsessive Israel-bashers on this forum.

" and you keep trying to divert attention from that FACT "

like the technique of diverting from the truth by crying “ ooohh anti-Semitism “

[Morch]

The OP should be changed to Palestinians look to force unilateral peace plan without negotiation. To try and enforce a deadline on the Israelis without a reciprocal commitment to anything is pie in the sky nonsense. How about a commitment from all Palestinian factions to renounce violence, recognize Israel's right to exist and to stop preaching hatred from cradle to grave through it's media?

Doubt that the Palestinians actually think that they can force anything.

Abbas is well aware that facts on the ground will not change without Israel's consent, and that pushing Israel too far might

get out of hand. So disregarding some expected rhetoric (Fatah is gearing up for its own sort-of primary elections, needs to

keep a tough image to counter Hamas) this is more about creating a more receptive international diplomatic environment.

One of the apparent aims of Israel's long term strategy was to curtail discussion of such proposals in international forums.

Not because these can directly push Israel around, but because opening the issues up for general international discussions

could lend the proposals/demands/conditions greater legitimacy. As odds in the UN are usually stacked against Israel (and

people are free to have their silly opinions about it having to do solely with justice and morals) - not an overall surprising

choice.

Abbas (through Jordan) will probably bide his time as long as he can. January 2015 will see membership changes in the

UNSC which are favorable to the Palestinians. Until then, there could be a lot of backroom bargaining about wording and

clauses, to make the proposal more palatable for the USA (and others, not the case that the entire UNSC is sweet on this).

My guess is that the "Jordanian" version of the proposal is intentionally phrased to allow this process.

The USA wants Abbas to wait until after the Israeli elections (March 2015, new government probably set up on April), but

not sure if he could hold off that long. Especially considering the volatile nature of the neighborhood. Would be interesting

to see how this will effect (if at all) the Israeli elections.

As for Hamas - indeed a problem. While Abbas was able to press gang them into the so-called Unity government, this was

not something brought about by brotherly love. Abbas simply used Hamas's dire economic situation to blackmail them into

joining (sort of, if one checks the few "Hamas" representatives, non a card-carrying-member of importance), only instead of

bailing them out, he's keeping them just above the waterline. No major breakthrough on most core issues, and even the aid

funds for Gaza's rehabilitation (meager, once again certain donor countries fail to live up to promises) are withheld.

The proposal by itself is not a bad thing. Negotiations been stalled for too long, Israeli right wing governments did a lot to

ensure the situation would be harder to resolve, and the Palestinians are not getting any milder with time. Might be better

to bring things to a head and have another go at talks. But despite certain opinions aired on this topic - Hamas is a major

player, and cannot be sidelined or ignored.

With all participants facing domestic issues of their own, and with things being volatile at best, it is hard to tell how the current

game of who-blinks-first will end. Somehow reminds me of that final showdown in "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly".

[Ulysses G.]

In other words, the false claim that Israel "slaughtered a school full of over 500 children in Gaza" was an outright LIE and you keep trying to divert attention from that FACT - very typical of the obsessive Israel-bashers on this forum.

" and you keep trying to divert attention from that FACT "

like the technique of diverting from the truth by crying “ ooohh anti-Semitism

What does "anti-Semitism" have to do with the easily verified FACT that NO school was attacked with 500 children killed in Gaza? That is a matter of record. You lot are obviously fans of the Goebbels's Big LIE tactic, but it does not work when anyone can Google that lie on the Internet and find that no evidence exists.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Ulysses G.