Koh Tao murder trial rescheduled

[catsanddogs]

http://british-tourists-murdered-thai.tumblr.com/

DNA traces from possible suspects could not be detected on Mr Miller’s body because it was smeared with his blood, he said.

Can someone explain this for me please?

[boomerangutang]

I lump the Gang of 4 posters with the RTP. They spout the same stuff. The Gang of 4 are spouting opinions, same as the rest of us. The Headman needs Thai officials to back him. It's quite possible he's paying for that backing - and it's quite common for VIP's in Thailand to pay for such backing. It could also be possible that there's a gold pot at the end of the rainbow. In other words, if the B2 are found guilty, then that would make it impossible to implicate any of the Headman's people or anyone else. An added payment would be in order. Remember 'pastrygate'? ....where friends of Thaksin were going to bribe a judge to get a favorable call on an important case? Not unusual, here in L.O.S.

Already, the Headman's people have been dropped as prime suspects. That was enacted the minute the replacement head cop was instated. However, if the B2 are acquitted, there is a 1% chance the Headman's people might again be designated suspects, however, there's more chance of Yingluck getting a sex change and hiring out as Ronald McDonald.

"Already, the Headman's people have been dropped as prime suspects. That was enacted the minute the replacement head cop was instated."

You can keep repeating that as much as you like, it doesn't become true, the police was already zeroing in on the Burmese men before Panya's promotion,

According to the Bangkok Post "Myanmar man 'admits to killings'" article on September 30 (before Panya's promotion) they were already focusing on one of the Burmese men caught on CCTV buying cigarettes, before that they were also on the look for a group of three Burmese men that were seeing playing the guitar near the site of the crime.

Your obsession in life, Nomsod, was cleared by the police on the 25th of September, seven days before Panya was replaced:

25 September 2014, Last update at 15:15:00 GMT

Bangkok Suspect Cleared of Connection To Britons' Murder

Furthermore Panya's promotion was scheduled well before the murders took place (and he wasn't the only one getting one at the time):

Gen Patchara's appointment is one of a slew of changes taking place at top provincial and regional levels at midnight tonight (September 30).

Lt Gen Panya Mamen, Commissioner of Police Region 8, is promoted to Assistant Commissioner General of the Royal Thai Police in Bangkok.

He is replaced by Maj Gen Decha Budnampeth, Deputy Commissioner of the Central Investigation Bureau, and a former provincial police cheif in Phuket. (2006-2008)

But again, why let facts get on the way of a good conspiracy?

The police had already zeroed in on the Burmese. Thank you AleG you have proved what we have suspected since the start of the murder.

I know you are trying really hard to play gotcha, but your inane comebacks are just that, inane.

From the outset of the investigation, up until the scapegoats were named, the police announced they thought it was most likely a Burmese migrant, adding; "A Thai person couldn't have done this."

as for the time Nomsod was cleared as a prime suspect, ....that could be anytime in the week prior to the replacement head cop was instated. Depends which Thai official you want to talk to (and when he got his first installment of money-under-the-table). Even so, I don't think Nomsod or Mon were ever officially dropped from being suspects (was there any official announcement by RTP stating that?). It was merely inferred, when the frame-up of the Burmese began. In Thailand, big money put in key peoples' hands, can get things done. If there was just one decent cop on the 'inside' it would be great if he could speak up and tell what he knows, but of course, that would spell his death. There is no 'Serpico' within Thai ranks.

[AleG]

"Already, the Headman's people have been dropped as prime suspects. That was enacted the minute the replacement head cop was instated."

You can keep repeating that as much as you like, it doesn't become true, the police was already zeroing in on the Burmese men before Panya's promotion,

According to the Bangkok Post "Myanmar man 'admits to killings'" article on September 30 (before Panya's promotion) they were already focusing on one of the Burmese men caught on CCTV buying cigarettes, before that they were also on the look for a group of three Burmese men that were seeing playing the guitar near the site of the crime.

Your obsession in life, Nomsod, was cleared by the police on the 25th of September, seven days before Panya was replaced:

25 September 2014, Last update at 15:15:00 GMT

Bangkok Suspect Cleared of Connection To Britons' Murder

Furthermore Panya's promotion was scheduled well before the murders took place (and he wasn't the only one getting one at the time):

Gen Patchara's appointment is one of a slew of changes taking place at top provincial and regional levels at midnight tonight (September 30).

Lt Gen Panya Mamen, Commissioner of Police Region 8, is promoted to Assistant Commissioner General of the Royal Thai Police in Bangkok.

He is replaced by Maj Gen Decha Budnampeth, Deputy Commissioner of the Central Investigation Bureau, and a former provincial police cheif in Phuket. (2006-2008)

But again, why let facts get on the way of a good conspiracy?

From the outset of the investigation, up until the scapegoats were named, the police announced they thought it was most likely a Burmese migrant, adding; "A Thai person couldn't have done this."

as for the time Nomsod was cleared as a prime suspect, ....that could be anytime in the week prior to the replacement head cop was instated. Depends which Thai official you want to talk to (and when he got his first installment of money-under-the-table). Even so, I don't think Nomsod or Mon were ever officially dropped from being suspects (was there any official announcement by RTP stating that?). It was merely inferred, when the frame-up of the Burmese began. In Thailand, big money put in key peoples' hands, can get things done. If there was just one decent cop on the 'inside' it would be great if he could speak up and tell what he knows, but of course, that would spell his death. There is no 'Serpico' within Thai ranks.

You are digging lower and lower now.

"I don't think Nomsod or Mon were ever officially dropped from being suspects (was there any official announcement by RTP stating that?)"

From the link I provided, which you, who claims that is here to try to find the truth, obviously didn't even bother to read:

"But police questioned Mr. Warot and established that he was not on the island when the murder took place, deputy police chief Pol.Gen. Ake Angsananond said yesterday. Therefore, he is no longer being treated as a potential suspect, Pol.Gen. Ake said."

You don't want to hear any facts that proves your beliefs wrong; and, as usual, you would make up any self serving rationalization on the spot to find an excuse to keep your head deep in the sand ("Depends which Thai official you want to talk to (and when he got his first installment of money-under-the-table).")

You claimed "the headman people" stopped being suspects after Panya was promoted, you are factually wrong. I don't call people that hold beliefs above facts to be people that seek the truth.

By the way "the police announced they thought it was most likely a Burmese migrant, adding; "A Thai person couldn't have done this.", that was not "the" police, that was one off-the-cuff remark from one policeman, the fact that they did place Thais in their list of suspects makes your insinuation that they were only looking at Burmese scapegoats from the beginning also demonstrably false.

Edited January 13, 2015 by CharlieH

[boomerangutang]

AleG, it's already been established in numerous posts that Thai police are/were wrong about many things in this investigation - not least, saying that 'Nomsod was not on the island at the time of the crime.' For a Thai official to say Nomsod is no longer a suspect, only proves how off-base they are. If the head cop was doing a remotely professional investigation, he would have said something like, "there is some evidence indicating one of our prime suspects was not at the scene of the crime, so we're going to scrutinize that allegation." Instead, the head cop takes the evidence of two still shots (yes, at that time, it was just still shots, not the actual videos), and quickly says something which one would expect from an official in the pocket of another official who's desperately trying to shield his brother and son from being investigated.

How easily he ignored that Nomsod had evaded police for a week, had avoided a DNA test, and evidence of more than one CCTV footage showing a suspect who looks very much like Nomsod - acting suspiciously - in proximity to, and close to the time of the crime. There are other implicating factors, too many to list here.

Within minutes of the time this crime story broke, I wrote comments on both major Eng.lang newspapers saying "Outside crime investigators should be brought in to investigate this serious crime." All the shenanigans by Thai cops since then, have proven my assertion. By any professional standard, Thai officials have done a crappy job of this investigation, and they may compel two 20 year old innocents to their deaths in the process. Shameful. When the blocks of this sham come tumbling down, it may also bring down those at the top of the pyramid. Will it be in time to save the next victims at Ko Tao? Will it be before the B2 are executed?

[JLCrab]

From post # 1069: Depends which Thai official you want to talk to (and when he got his first installment of money-under-the-table).

Hey -- no problem. Just take yourself outa the friendly confines of one of those Chiangs and go down to the Koh Tao police HQ and ask them: When did you inept clowns get your first money from the Headman and I'm sure they would be cooperative at least to the extent that one might say: Well I'm not sure when I got my first money -- my cousin Somchai got it at the same time -- I'll get him on the phone and ask him.

Edited January 13, 2015 by JLCrab

[AleG]

AleG, it's already been established in numerous posts that Thai police are/were wrong about many things in this investigation - not least, saying that 'Nomsod was not on the island at the time of the crime.' For a Thai official to say Nomsod is no longer a suspect, only proves how off-base they are. If the head cop was doing a remotely professional investigation, he would have said something like, "there is some evidence indicating one of our prime suspects was not at the scene of the crime, so we're going to scrutinize that allegation." Instead, the head cop takes the evidence of two still shots (yes, at that time, it was just still shots, not the actual videos), and quickly says something which one would expect from an official in the pocket of another official who's desperately trying to shield his brother and son from being investigated.

How easily he ignored that Nomsod had evaded police for a week, had avoided a DNA test, and evidence of more than one CCTV footage showing a suspect who looks very much like Nomsod - acting suspiciously - in proximity to, and close to the time of the crime. There are other implicating factors, too many to list here.

Within minutes of the time this crime story broke, I wrote comments on both major Eng.lang newspapers saying "Outside crime investigators should be brought in to investigate this serious crime." All the shenanigans by Thai cops since then, have proven my assertion. By any professional standard, Thai officials have done a crappy job of this investigation, and they may compel two 20 year old innocents to their deaths in the process. Shameful. When the blocks of this sham come tumbling down, it may also bring down those at the top of the pyramid. Will it be in time to save the next victims at Ko Tao? Will it be before the B2 are executed?

Lets summarize your attitude: I reject reality and replace it with my own speculation.

[CharlieH]

I have edited a number of posts with colored or enlarged fonts. Further posts of this type will be deleted.

[AleG]

Who made this statement and when? "A blue colored pants that was found by the body of Mr David is now believed to belong to the suspect."

"Would be useful if you could back up your facts with a link that disputes that report"

From a quick search here is a post showing two of the photographs from the shorts found at the crime scene and David Miller wearing them before the murder.

I'm quite sure you've seen at least one of those photos before, so I believe you are being deliberately disingenuous.

You believe I'm being deliberately disingenuous, really. I believe your speculating and then claiming it to be a fact.

So the photo is a fact to you that they were Millers pants, in that case any photo or screenshot is proof of what you want to believe and then quote it as fact. Despite reports to the contrary.

Other posters and myself have had various discussions on these threads regards those shorts and none of us have claimed either way whether they are Davids or some other suspects left at the scene. You disagree with that because of a photo with no proof especially when the photo of the scene shows blue shorts and they are very difficult to distinguish. They cannot be claimed to be inside out as again that would be speculating not fact.

OK then, now I'm certain that you are being disingenuous.

[greenchair]

I notice, when people start really working together and look and investigate these pictures. The post goes wild with dozens of arguments by certain people. The scrutiny of the pictures then stops. In the states the police could not catch a serial killer. One person studied the pictures day and night. Finally he saw one piece of paper that should not be in the place that it was. They tested that paper and got dna. That killer was stopped because of a picture, a focused policeman and a piece of paper. The???? are out in force right now. Do not be distracted.

[AleG]

I notice, when people start really working together and look and investigate these pictures. The post goes wild with dozens of arguments by certain people. The scrutiny of the pictures then stops. In the states the police could not catch a serial killer. One person studied the pictures day and night. Finally he saw one piece of paper that should not be in the place that it was. They tested that paper and got dna. That killer was stopped because of a picture, a focused policeman and a piece of paper. The???? are out in force right now. Do not be distracted.

No, you got it wrong; it's when people spout BS that I correct them with facts.

Instead of innuendo and irrelevant stories you could try to address those facts and arguments, can you do that?

[thailandchilli]

Who made this statement and when? "A blue colored pants that was found by the body of Mr David is now believed to belong to the suspect."

"Would be useful if you could back up your facts with a link that disputes that report"

From a quick search here is a post showing two of the photographs from the shorts found at the crime scene and David Miller wearing them before the murder.

I'm quite sure you've seen at least one of those photos before, so I believe you are being deliberately disingenuous.

You believe I'm being deliberately disingenuous, really. I believe your speculating and then claiming it to be a fact.

So the photo is a fact to you that they were Millers pants, in that case any photo or screenshot is proof of what you want to believe and then quote it as fact. Despite reports to the contrary.

Other posters and myself have had various discussions on these threads regards those shorts and none of us have claimed either way whether they are Davids or some other suspects left at the scene. You disagree with that because of a photo with no proof especially when the photo of the scene shows blue shorts and they are very difficult to distinguish. They cannot be claimed to be inside out as again that would be speculating not fact.

OK then, now I'm certain that you are being disingenuous.

Poor deflection

But good for you, because the only certainty is that you are accusing others of a conspiracy theory when you go along and claim facts that are in your head and nowhere else. Carry on the good work

Edited January 13, 2015 by thailandchilli

[JLCrab]

The serial killer David Berkowitz the Son-of-Sam murderer was caught because someone noticed that there had been a parking ticket issued near the most recent murder scene and he was found by tracing that parking ticket.

That may be the one referenced above or maybe not but that was someone being alert who lived near the crime scene at the time of the most recent crime and not by people getting together pre-internet and saying what about this and what about that.

[boomerangutang]

I notice, when people start really working together and look and investigate these pictures. The post goes wild with dozens of arguments by certain people. The scrutiny of the pictures then stops. In the states the police could not catch a serial killer. One person studied the pictures day and night. Finally he saw one piece of paper that should not be in the place that it was. They tested that paper and got dna. That killer was stopped because of a picture, a focused policeman and a piece of paper. The???? are out in force right now. Do not be distracted.

Comparing US detective methodology with Thai methodology is like comparing Carl Lewis running the 200 meter dash, with Somchai "the fastest guy at the fish farm." There have been many crimes in the US which have been at least partially solved by outside observers - people who AleG and jdinasia would rudely dismiss as 'conspiracy theorists.' The posters' view would be a lot different if, for example a dear relative of theirs was raped and/or murdered, and some info from netizens helped find and apprehend the baddie. This KT case shows how exceedingly subjective some people can be, including police.

It should be clear by now, that police <deleted> don't want to see or hear any evidence which may implicated any of the Headman's people. If they were open- or fair-minded, they might look at some bits of info and consider it (upon closer examination perhaps?) to have some bearing on the case. But they've proven with hundreds of posts (and the police with their closed-minded silence) to be vehemently opposed to any implicating evidence. It's also obvious why they don't want any outside input of suggestions - for the same reasons.

The same happens in totalitarian regimes. Can you imagine a suggestion box out side Fat-Boy-Kim's office door, or someone like Generalissimo Franco or Bokassa or Idi Amin ....being open to suggestions from the general public? Of course not. People who have big things to hide, don't want any input from the general public, whether the public be experts or not.

[boomerangutang]

The serial killer David Berkowitz the Son-of-Sam murderer was caught because someone noticed that there had been a parking ticket issued near the most recent murder scene and he was found by tracing that parking ticket.

That may be the one referenced above or maybe not but that was someone being alert who lived near the crime scene at the time of the most recent crime and not by people getting together pre-internet and saying what about this and what about that.

In the San Francisco region of California, police were stumped by a serial killer they dubbed 'The Zodiac Killer'. They couldn't decipher some coded messages, so they opted to publish one of the notes in the SF Examiner newspaper. A couple of regular (but bright) people in the suburbs were able to decipher the notes, and that led to capturing the bad guy. If it was a similar scenario in Thailand, the police and some would laugh at any suggestion to involve 'outsiders.' Some would tell you that the police are the professionals, and anyone outside offering an opinion (or possible evidence) is a 'conspiracy theorist' and input from them is worthless. Qualification: perhaps that closed-minded attitude would only happen when police decide to be shielding of particular well-connected people. I'm not sure if they would act that way if they had a vested interest in actually finding and nailing the real culprits - whomever they may be.

[jimmybkk]

Discredit by calling a troll... <yawn!> Discredit by calling a conspiracy theorist... <yawn!> How about instead of this juvenile name-calling you offer a valid explanation why ownership of the pants has any relevance when at least 2 of their friends reported that Christopher Ware was wearing those pants that night.

"Several witnesses confirmed that Ware, who left the island for Bangkok on Monday evening, was wearing the trousers the night the two victims were murdered, the same source said."

Source: https://www.dvb.no/news/koh-tao-muder-burmese-migrants-cleared-after-dna-tests-burma-myanmar/44236

It has no relevance on what the witnesses said, it has relevance on this speculation of yours:

"Has he ever said what caused the stain? He was wearing the trousers, so you would think he would know."

Why would he know if it wasn't his trousers?

You are clearly implying that he is hiding something, from then on you get the speculation going; that the police didn't test for blood thoroughly, that they didn't actually identify the chemical substance as being different from any blood stain, that Ware spend at least two hours cleaning the trousers with oxygen bleach, that he was cleared only on the results of the trousers analysis, etc, etc...

I asked for a valid explanation why ownership of the pants has any relevance to how the stains got there when witnesses have stated that Ware was wearing them that night. Your reply is that it doesn't matter who was wearing them, only the owner of the pants would know how the stains got there.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

[JLCrab]

The serial killer David Berkowitz the Son-of-Sam murderer was caught because someone noticed that there had been a parking ticket issued near the most recent murder scene and he was found by tracing that parking ticket.

That may be the one referenced above or maybe not but that was someone being alert who lived near the crime scene at the time of the most recent crime and not by people getting together pre-internet and saying what about this and what about that.

In the San Francisco region of California, police were stumped by a serial killer they dubbed 'The Zodiac Killer'. They couldn't decipher some coded messages, so they opted to publish one of the notes in the SF Examiner newspaper. A couple of regular (but bright) people in the suburbs were able to decipher the notes, and that led to capturing the bad guy. If it was a similar scenario in Thailand, the police would laugh at any suggestion to involve 'outsiders. would tell you that the police are the professionals, and anyone outside offering an opinion (or possible evidence) is a 'conspiracy theorist' and input from them is worthless. Qualification: perhaps that closed-minded attitude would only happen when police decide to be shielding of particular well-connected people. I'm not sure if they would act that way if they had a vested interest in actually finding and nailing the real culprits - whomever they may be.

That's a nice story but the 'Zodiac Killer' of the SF region has never been apprehended --

The Zodiac Killer was a serial killer who operated in northern California in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The killer's identity remains unknown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer#Suspects

[Chetzee]

Police photo of garments found at the scene .

[jimmybkk]

A while back on one of these threads I suggested to JTJ that one of his posts was based purely on speculation and conjecture, and he replied as follows:

JohnThailandJohn: "You can always start your own forum -- on this one nothing wrong with speculation as long as it is not be stated as fact. Actually, it is pretty much what this entire thread is about --- speculating on what is known or in some cases what we think is known."

So having been given the green light here goes...

Imagine this scenario: An armed man attempts to rob a bank but is thwarted by the arrival of the police. He makes a run for it through crowded streets and ducks into a public lavatory trying to blend into the crowd in an attempt to lose the police who are chasing him. The police see him enter the lavatory and slowly and silently follow him. When they enter they see 5 guys facing the wall using the 5 urinals on the wall. One of the 5 is the bank robber. One of the police guys shouts out: "Put your hands on your head. Make one wrong move and I shoot!".

What happens next is that 4 heads turn to look back at who's making all the noise with a "What the...???" look on their faces, while one head remains still as he weighs up his options. So who would you guess is the bank robber?

The point is that you can sometimes learn a lot about the perpetrator of a crime from the reactions of people who have not even witnessed the crime. Likewise, if you are passing by a sports stadium just as a match has ended, you can most likely tell by the actions and behaviour of the fans exiting the stadium and by the colour jersey or scarf they are wearing which team won the match, without having watched the game and without having heard the score. It's much the same in an internet forum.

I have posted before that i believe there is a gay connection to these murders, and when I do post this theory no doubt I get labelled as some kind of right-wing, neo-nazi gay hater, and if that is what people want to believe then that's fine - you are entitled to your opinion. For those who maybe have not read my earlier posts here's my reasoning for thinking the killer(s) may be gay:

• The level of emotion on display at the crime scene, which I think is way in excess of that which would normally be shown by a guy simply getting rejected by a girl, and way in excess of a couple of guys simply trying to cover up a rape. Whereas a gay man, infatuated with David, sees Hannah as being what is keeping them apart, and then witnessing David die in a fight that started (somehow) on the beach - I could see that person being angry enough to commit Hannah's murder in this fashion.
• Reports show that homicides committed by homosexual killers often display signs of overkill (which I think is evident on both victims in this case). This quote from Dr. William Eckert, a world-renowned pathologist seems to perhaps describe the situation incredibly accurately: "Equally high is the number of homicides, many probably related to transient attachments, which often lead to suspicion, jealousy, and murder. When murder does occur it is exceptionally brutal with an overkill appearance... Overkill, as it is seen in homosexual and lesbian murders, is certainly a form of sadistic crime. In these instances multiple stabbing and other brutal injuries...are common findings..." (http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Murders)
• The way that Hannah's body was sexually posed further indicates the extent of the killer's anger and is intended to send a very spiteful, hateful message, which suggests that even after murdering her the anger and hatred had not subsided, hence the posing. Here is an interesting article on posing: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.practicalhomicide.com%2FResearch%2FISJjuly2010.pdf&ei=P7y0VMaXEND8ugSdnoDABQ&usg=AFQjCNH1B2cnPbGwnnviXCXtuR4Jmo5MwQ&bvm=bv.83339334,d.c2E
• I have read of no evidence of rape of the victim except for the semen found. No mention of any pubic hair found that matched the suspects etc. Only a condom that was found with no DNA on the inside, only Hannah's DNA on the outside. Some have speculated that maybe 2 condoms were used. I think it more likely that whatever was inside the condom did not contain DNA. I think she was probably violated, not raped, which would fit with the gay man hypothesis. It seems violating the victim is not uncommon in cases where a body has been posed. (See the article on posing above)
• I also believe this predominantly because of the reaction of certain posters on internet forums, hence the bank robber scenario above.

Some posters here believe that the Headman's people are being protected. I believe that the Headman is perfectly capable of protecting his people by himself and doesn't need any help. In fact he's probably got everything sewn up nicely already, thank you very much. The damage to the island's reputation has already been done - there's nothing to protect there any more. But what do you think would happen to the island's reputation as a tranquil getaway for gay singles or couples if word spread on the Internet that these murders had been committed by a psychotic gay male, who is probably still on the loose? I would imagine that it would quickly be struck off the list of potential destinations for any gay people looking to take a tranquil break or to go on a diving holiday somewhere - who would want to go there if they have to start worrying whether the gay guy sitting across the table from them could be a psycho killer? The gay singles scene would almost certainly be the 5th casualty of these murders if that were to happen.

Now imagine that you are a gay man (or several gay men), living in Thailand who is a keen diver and enjoys getaways to Koh Tao. How would you feel if your favourite, and very convenient, island retreat was suddenly in grave danger of becoming "gay-unfriendly"? It certainly wouldn't be as much fun going there any more. Would that be sufficient motivation to keep you posting, and posting, and posting.....

[BritTim]

A while back on one of these threads I suggested to JTJ that one of his posts was based purely on speculation and conjecture, and he replied as follows:

JohnThailandJohn: "You can always start your own forum -- on this one nothing wrong with speculation as long as it is not be stated as fact. Actually, it is pretty much what this entire thread is about --- speculating on what is known or in some cases what we think is known."

So having been given the green light here goes...

Imagine this scenario: An armed man attempts to rob a bank but is thwarted by the arrival of the police. He makes a run for it through crowded streets and ducks into a public lavatory trying to blend into the crowd in an attempt to lose the police who are chasing him. The police see him enter the lavatory and slowly and silently follow him. When they enter they see 5 guys facing the wall using the 5 urinals on the wall. One of the 5 is the bank robber. One of the police guys shouts out: "Put your hands on your head. Make one wrong move and I shoot!".

What happens next is that 4 heads turn to look back at who's making all the noise with a "What the...???" look on their faces, while one head remains still as he weighs up his options. So who would you guess is the bank robber?

The point is that you can sometimes learn a lot about the perpetrator of a crime from the reactions of people who have not even witnessed the crime. Likewise, if you are passing by a sports stadium just as a match has ended, you can most likely tell by the actions and behaviour of the fans exiting the stadium and by the colour jersey or scarf they are wearing which team won the match, without having watched the game and without having heard the score. It's much the same in an internet forum.

I have posted before that i believe there is a gay connection to these murders, and when I do post this theory no doubt I get labelled as some kind of right-wing, neo-nazi gay hater, and if that is what people want to believe then that's fine - you are entitled to your opinion. For those who maybe have not read my earlier posts here's my reasoning for thinking the killer(s) may be gay:

• The level of emotion on display at the crime scene, which I think is way in excess of that which would normally be shown by a guy simply getting rejected by a girl, and way in excess of a couple of guys simply trying to cover up a rape. Whereas a gay man, infatuated with David, sees Hannah as being what is keeping them apart, and then witnessing David die in a fight that started (somehow) on the beach - I could see that person being angry enough to commit Hannah's murder in this fashion.
• Reports show that homicides committed by homosexual killers often display signs of overkill (which I think is evident on both victims in this case). This quote from Dr. William Eckert, a world-renowned pathologist seems to perhaps describe the situation incredibly accurately: "Equally high is the number of homicides, many probably related to transient attachments, which often lead to suspicion, jealousy, and murder. When murder does occur it is exceptionally brutal with an overkill appearance... Overkill, as it is seen in homosexual and lesbian murders, is certainly a form of sadistic crime. In these instances multiple stabbing and other brutal injuries...are common findings..." (http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Murders)
• The way that Hannah's body was sexually posed further indicates the extent of the killer's anger and is intended to send a very spiteful, hateful message, which suggests that even after murdering her the anger and hatred had not subsided, hence the posing. Here is an interesting article on posing: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.practicalhomicide.com%2FResearch%2FISJjuly2010.pdf&ei=P7y0VMaXEND8ugSdnoDABQ&usg=AFQjCNH1B2cnPbGwnnviXCXtuR4Jmo5MwQ&bvm=bv.83339334,d.c2E
• I have read of no evidence of rape of the victim except for the semen found. No mention of any pubic hair found that matched the suspects etc. Only a condom that was found with no DNA on the inside, only Hannah's DNA on the outside. Some have speculated that maybe 2 condoms were used. I think it more likely that whatever was inside the condom did not contain DNA. I think she was probably violated, not raped, which would fit with the gay man hypothesis. It seems violating the victim is not uncommon in cases where a body has been posed. (See the article on posing above)
• I also believe this predominantly because of the reaction of certain posters on internet forums, hence the bank robber scenario above.

Some posters here believe that the Headman's people are being protected. I believe that the Headman is perfectly capable of protecting his people by himself and doesn't need any help. In fact he's probably got everything sewn up nicely already, thank you very much. The damage to the island's reputation has already been done - there's nothing to protect there any more. But what do you think would happen to the island's reputation as a tranquil getaway for gay singles or couples if word spread on the Internet that these murders had been committed by a psychotic gay male, who is probably still on the loose? I would imagine that it would quickly be struck off the list of potential destinations for any gay people looking to take a tranquil break or to go on a diving holiday somewhere - who would want to go there if they have to start worrying whether the gay guy sitting across the table from them could be a psycho killer? The gay singles scene would almost certainly be the 5th casualty of these murders if that were to happen.

Now imagine that you are a gay man (or several gay men), living in Thailand who is a keen diver and enjoys getaways to Koh Tao. How would you feel if your favourite, and very convenient, island retreat was suddenly in grave danger of becoming "gay-unfriendly"? It certainly wouldn't be as much fun going there any more. Would that be sufficient motivation to keep you posting, and posting, and posting.....

I follow your argument, but I still regard it as highly speculative. The biggest weakness, I think, is that there is no evidence that Hannah was coming between David and any gay man. There are plenty of sadists that are not gay. Even if we discount the theory that the dismantling of Hannah's head was to cover up a bullet hole (and I do consider that unlikely, by the way) a brutal execution using other means can certainly be the work of a straight killer.

[JLCrab]

From the long post 2 above: The point is that you can sometimes learn a lot about the perpetrator of a crime from the reactions of people who have not even witnessed the crime.

... or as Yogi Berra out it: You can observe a lot by just watching.

[stephen terry]

And this motivation is not lust as the RTP's scenario to convict the Burmese would state. Hannah, by her actions or deeds seriously caused someone to enact this horrific murder from jealously or rage, IMO. Whether gay or straight, this killer is sick. And at least someone, probably more, witnessed it. Could explain why Sean and the Ware kid departed PDQ, and why Nomsod fled from questioning.

Regretfully, unless someone on the island comes forth with a solid story backed up with other witnesses, the truth may never out, and the Burmese will pay the price.

[AleG]

OK then, now I'm certain that you are being disingenuous.

Poor deflection

But good for you, because the only certainty is that you are accusing others of a conspiracy theory when you go along and claim facts that are in your head and nowhere else. Carry on the good work

Just for the record, and to prove you are being deliberately disingenuous, the "facts that are in your head and nowhere else" are actual photographic evidence to which I provided a link to.

[AleG]

In the San Francisco region of California, police were stumped by a serial killer they dubbed 'The Zodiac Killer'. They couldn't decipher some coded messages, so they opted to publish one of the notes in the SF Examiner newspaper. A couple of regular (but bright) people in the suburbs were able to decipher the notes, and that led to capturing the bad guy. If it was a similar scenario in Thailand, the police would laugh at any suggestion to involve 'outsiders.' would tell you that the police are the professionals, and anyone outside offering an opinion (or possible evidence) is a 'conspiracy theorist' and input from them is worthless. Qualification: perhaps that closed-minded attitude would only happen when police decide to be shielding of particular well-connected people. I'm not sure if they would act that way if they had a vested interest in actually finding and nailing the real culprits - whomever they may be.

That's a nice story but the 'Zodiac Killer' of the SF region has never been apprehended --

The Zodiac Killer was a serial killer who operated in northern California in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The killer's identity remains unknown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer#Suspects

Whoops, but let's not let the facts get on the way of a self-justifying story, right?

[thailandchilli]

OK then, now I'm certain that you are being disingenuous.

Poor deflection

But good for you, because the only certainty is that you are accusing others of a conspiracy theory when you go along and claim facts that are in your head and nowhere else. Carry on the good work

Just for the record, and to prove you are being deliberately disingenuous, the "facts that are in your head and nowhere else" are actual photographic evidence to which I provided a link to.

Thank you for your record, you have already noted mine

[NCFC]

So are any of our TV investigators located in Koh Tao, been there to take witness statements personally? Or is this all being done behind a keyboard using whatever snippets of information have appeared in the media?

Any one done personal investigations?

Edited January 13, 2015 by NCFC

[JLCrab]

So are any of our TV investigators located in Koh Tao, been there to take witness statements personally? Or is this all being done behind a keyboard using whatever snippets of information have appeared in the media?

Any one done personal investigations?

Oh please if anybody actually went to Koh Tao and started nosing around their life wouldn't be worth a 50 satang piece (posted 10 JAN 2015):

https://twitter.com/search?q=%40atomicalandy&src=typd&mode=photos

Edited January 13, 2015 by JLCrab

[IslandLover]

BritTim, on 13 Jan 2015 - 09:10, said:

jimmybkk, on 13 Jan 2015 - 08:50, said:

A while back on one of these threads I suggested to JTJ that one of his posts was based purely on speculation and conjecture, and he replied as follows:

JohnThailandJohn: "You can always start your own forum -- on this one nothing wrong with speculation as long as it is not be stated as fact. Actually, it is pretty much what this entire thread is about --- speculating on what is known or in some cases what we think is known."

So having been given the green light here goes...

Imagine this scenario: An armed man attempts to rob a bank but is thwarted by the arrival of the police. He makes a run for it through crowded streets and ducks into a public lavatory trying to blend into the crowd in an attempt to lose the police who are chasing him. The police see him enter the lavatory and slowly and silently follow him. When they enter they see 5 guys facing the wall using the 5 urinals on the wall. One of the 5 is the bank robber. One of the police guys shouts out: "Put your hands on your head. Make one wrong move and I shoot!".

What happens next is that 4 heads turn to look back at who's making all the noise with a "What the...???" look on their faces, while one head remains still as he weighs up his options. So who would you guess is the bank robber?

The point is that you can sometimes learn a lot about the perpetrator of a crime from the reactions of people who have not even witnessed the crime. Likewise, if you are passing by a sports stadium just as a match has ended, you can most likely tell by the actions and behaviour of the fans exiting the stadium and by the colour jersey or scarf they are wearing which team won the match, without having watched the game and without having heard the score. It's much the same in an internet forum.

I have posted before that i believe there is a gay connection to these murders, and when I do post this theory no doubt I get labelled as some kind of right-wing, neo-nazi gay hater, and if that is what people want to believe then that's fine - you are entitled to your opinion. For those who maybe have not read my earlier posts here's my reasoning for thinking the killer(s) may be gay:

• The level of emotion on display at the crime scene, which I think is way in excess of that which would normally be shown by a guy simply getting rejected by a girl, and way in excess of a couple of guys simply trying to cover up a rape. Whereas a gay man, infatuated with David, sees Hannah as being what is keeping them apart, and then witnessing David die in a fight that started (somehow) on the beach - I could see that person being angry enough to commit Hannah's murder in this fashion.
• Reports show that homicides committed by homosexual killers often display signs of overkill (which I think is evident on both victims in this case). This quote from Dr. William Eckert, a world-renowned pathologist seems to perhaps describe the situation incredibly accurately: "Equally high is the number of homicides, many probably related to transient attachments, which often lead to suspicion, jealousy, and murder. When murder does occur it is exceptionally brutal with an overkill appearance... Overkill, as it is seen in homosexual and lesbian murders, is certainly a form of sadistic crime. In these instances multiple stabbing and other brutal injuries...are common findings..." (http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Murders)
• The way that Hannah's body was sexually posed further indicates the extent of the killer's anger and is intended to send a very spiteful, hateful message, which suggests that even after murdering her the anger and hatred had not subsided, hence the posing. Here is an interesting article on posing: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.practicalhomicide.com%2FResearch%2FISJjuly2010.pdf&ei=P7y0VMaXEND8ugSdnoDABQ&usg=AFQjCNH1B2cnPbGwnnviXCXtuR4Jmo5MwQ&bvm=bv.83339334,d.c2E
• I have read of no evidence of rape of the victim except for the semen found. No mention of any pubic hair found that matched the suspects etc. Only a condom that was found with no DNA on the inside, only Hannah's DNA on the outside. Some have speculated that maybe 2 condoms were used. I think it more likely that whatever was inside the condom did not contain DNA. I think she was probably violated, not raped, which would fit with the gay man hypothesis. It seems violating the victim is not uncommon in cases where a body has been posed. (See the article on posing above)
• I also believe this predominantly because of the reaction of certain posters on internet forums, hence the bank robber scenario above.

Some posters here believe that the Headman's people are being protected. I believe that the Headman is perfectly capable of protecting his people by himself and doesn't need any help. In fact he's probably got everything sewn up nicely already, thank you very much. The damage to the island's reputation has already been done - there's nothing to protect there any more. But what do you think would happen to the island's reputation as a tranquil getaway for gay singles or couples if word spread on the Internet that these murders had been committed by a psychotic gay male, who is probably still on the loose? I would imagine that it would quickly be struck off the list of potential destinations for any gay people looking to take a tranquil break or to go on a diving holiday somewhere - who would want to go there if they have to start worrying whether the gay guy sitting across the table from them could be a psycho killer? The gay singles scene would almost certainly be the 5th casualty of these murders if that were to happen.

Now imagine that you are a gay man (or several gay men), living in Thailand who is a keen diver and enjoys getaways to Koh Tao. How would you feel if your favourite, and very convenient, island retreat was suddenly in grave danger of becoming "gay-unfriendly"? It certainly wouldn't be as much fun going there any more. Would that be sufficient motivation to keep you posting, and posting, and posting.....

I follow your argument, but I still regard it as highly speculative. The biggest weakness, I think, is that there is no evidence that Hannah was coming between David and any gay man. There are plenty of sadists that are not gay. Even if we discount the theory that the dismantling of Hannah's head was to cover up a bullet hole (and I do consider that unlikely, by the way) a brutal execution using other means can certainly be the work of a straight killer.

There are plenty of sadists that are not gay

True, and especially when drugs like ya ba/ice and cocaine are involved.

[thailandchilli]

A while back on one of these threads I suggested to JTJ that one of his posts was based purely on speculation and conjecture, and he replied as follows:

JohnThailandJohn: "You can always start your own forum -- on this one nothing wrong with speculation as long as it is not be stated as fact. Actually, it is pretty much what this entire thread is about --- speculating on what is known or in some cases what we think is known."

So having been given the green light here goes...

Imagine this scenario: An armed man attempts to rob a bank but is thwarted by the arrival of the police. He makes a run for it through crowded streets and ducks into a public lavatory trying to blend into the crowd in an attempt to lose the police who are chasing him. The police see him enter the lavatory and slowly and silently follow him. When they enter they see 5 guys facing the wall using the 5 urinals on the wall. One of the 5 is the bank robber. One of the police guys shouts out: "Put your hands on your head. Make one wrong move and I shoot!".

What happens next is that 4 heads turn to look back at who's making all the noise with a "What the...???" look on their faces, while one head remains still as he weighs up his options. So who would you guess is the bank robber?

The point is that you can sometimes learn a lot about the perpetrator of a crime from the reactions of people who have not even witnessed the crime. Likewise, if you are passing by a sports stadium just as a match has ended, you can most likely tell by the actions and behaviour of the fans exiting the stadium and by the colour jersey or scarf they are wearing which team won the match, without having watched the game and without having heard the score. It's much the same in an internet forum.

I have posted before that i believe there is a gay connection to these murders, and when I do post this theory no doubt I get labelled as some kind of right-wing, neo-nazi gay hater, and if that is what people want to believe then that's fine - you are entitled to your opinion. For those who maybe have not read my earlier posts here's my reasoning for thinking the killer(s) may be gay:

• The level of emotion on display at the crime scene, which I think is way in excess of that which would normally be shown by a guy simply getting rejected by a girl, and way in excess of a couple of guys simply trying to cover up a rape. Whereas a gay man, infatuated with David, sees Hannah as being what is keeping them apart, and then witnessing David die in a fight that started (somehow) on the beach - I could see that person being angry enough to commit Hannah's murder in this fashion.
• Reports show that homicides committed by homosexual killers often display signs of overkill (which I think is evident on both victims in this case). This quote from Dr. William Eckert, a world-renowned pathologist seems to perhaps describe the situation incredibly accurately: "Equally high is the number of homicides, many probably related to transient attachments, which often lead to suspicion, jealousy, and murder. When murder does occur it is exceptionally brutal with an overkill appearance... Overkill, as it is seen in homosexual and lesbian murders, is certainly a form of sadistic crime. In these instances multiple stabbing and other brutal injuries...are common findings..." (http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Murders)
• The way that Hannah's body was sexually posed further indicates the extent of the killer's anger and is intended to send a very spiteful, hateful message, which suggests that even after murdering her the anger and hatred had not subsided, hence the posing. Here is an interesting article on posing: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.practicalhomicide.com%2FResearch%2FISJjuly2010.pdf&ei=P7y0VMaXEND8ugSdnoDABQ&usg=AFQjCNH1B2cnPbGwnnviXCXtuR4Jmo5MwQ&bvm=bv.83339334,d.c2E
• I have read of no evidence of rape of the victim except for the semen found. No mention of any pubic hair found that matched the suspects etc. Only a condom that was found with no DNA on the inside, only Hannah's DNA on the outside. Some have speculated that maybe 2 condoms were used. I think it more likely that whatever was inside the condom did not contain DNA. I think she was probably violated, not raped, which would fit with the gay man hypothesis. It seems violating the victim is not uncommon in cases where a body has been posed. (See the article on posing above)
• I also believe this predominantly because of the reaction of certain posters on internet forums, hence the bank robber scenario above.

Some posters here believe that the Headman's people are being protected. I believe that the Headman is perfectly capable of protecting his people by himself and doesn't need any help. In fact he's probably got everything sewn up nicely already, thank you very much. The damage to the island's reputation has already been done - there's nothing to protect there any more. But what do you think would happen to the island's reputation as a tranquil getaway for gay singles or couples if word spread on the Internet that these murders had been committed by a psychotic gay male, who is probably still on the loose? I would imagine that it would quickly be struck off the list of potential destinations for any gay people looking to take a tranquil break or to go on a diving holiday somewhere - who would want to go there if they have to start worrying whether the gay guy sitting across the table from them could be a psycho killer? The gay singles scene would almost certainly be the 5th casualty of these murders if that were to happen.

Now imagine that you are a gay man (or several gay men), living in Thailand who is a keen diver and enjoys getaways to Koh Tao. How would you feel if your favourite, and very convenient, island retreat was suddenly in grave danger of becoming "gay-unfriendly"? It certainly wouldn't be as much fun going there any more. Would that be sufficient motivation to keep you posting, and posting, and posting.....

I think JTJ was absolutely correct, of course its ok to speculate, if you are not claiming it as a fact then everybody has a right to do that, its called free speech.

Not sure JTJ would have approved of your post however

By the way, I've always had a nagging doubt in my mind about a gay element but have never been able to fit things together so its remained there, at the back of my mind. But thanks for your speculative post!

[greenchair]

So are any of our TV investigators located in Koh Tao, been there to take witness statements personally? Or is this all being done behind a keyboard using whatever snippets of information have appeared in the media?

Any one done personal investigations?

Oh please if anybody actually went to Koh Tao and started nosing around their life wouldn't be worth a 50 satang piece (posted 10 JAN 2015):

https://twitter.com/search?q=%40atomicalandy&src=typd&mode=photos

No fear ??

[boomerangutang]

The serial killer David Berkowitz the Son-of-Sam murderer was caught because someone noticed that there had been a parking ticket issued near the most recent murder scene and he was found by tracing that parking ticket.

That may be the one referenced above or maybe not but that was someone being alert who lived near the crime scene at the time of the most recent crime and not by people getting together pre-internet and saying what about this and what about that.

In the San Francisco region of California, police were stumped by a serial killer they dubbed 'The Zodiac Killer'. They couldn't decipher some coded messages, so they opted to publish one of the notes in the SF Examiner newspaper. A couple of regular (but bright) people in the suburbs were able to decipher the notes, and that led to capturing the bad guy. If it was a similar scenario in Thailand, the police' would laugh at any suggestion to involve 'outsiders.' would tell you that the police are the professionals, and anyone outside offering an opinion (or possible evidence) is a 'conspiracy theorist' and input from them is worthless. Qualification: perhaps that closed-minded attitude would only happen when police decide to be shielding of particular well-connected people. I'm not sure if they would act that way if they had a vested interest in actually finding and nailing the real culprits - whomever they may be.

That's a nice story but the 'Zodiac Killer' of the SF region has never been apprehended --

The Zodiac Killer was a serial killer who operated in northern California in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The killer's identity remains unknown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer#Suspects

I stand corrected. I thought he was caught. However, the gist of the story is that regular folks proved helpful in a breakthrough in the case, which cops couldn't untangle. In contrast, we have the KT case, where the cops don't want any outside input, unless it's something which might further implicate the Burmese. They don't want to hear or see anything which could implicate the protected rich guys.