Koh Tao murder trial rescheduled

[IslandLover]

JohnThailandJohn, on 03 Feb 2015 - 03:22, said:

The fact the two defendants said they were threatened into confessing has nothing to do with their guilt or innocence. They have withdrawn their confessions. Police should answer for any abuse of the suspects but even in first world countries that are not going to answer such inquiries from a human rights group prior to the criminal trial. There is nothing illegal about the police not responding to these inquiries. The suspects and their lawyers can bring criminal charges all on their own in Thailand if they felt police committed a criminal act. However, this is not so much criminal as it is a defense strategy which to my understanding worked as their confessions have been retracted.

If you want to believe that even in first world nations police don't get rough with suspects and legally lie to them then you are not being realistic. This is just life (police) and is not uncommon and although wrong, doesn't reflect if a suspect is guilty or not. Although false confessions do take place, it is more likely some pressure (abuse), lies or threats often get guilty people to admit their involvement.

As for the police caring about the defendants or victims families, that is not their job.

As for the defendants families, you are welcome to share their feelings and thoughts ... even if they are a lot less credible than that of the victims. The victim's family's only motivation would be to see the right people convicted. They have been informed by numerous sources such as the embassy, Thai Police, UK Coroner and UK investigators. On the other hand the victim;s family are motivated to protect their children and nobody wants to believe their loved one could commit such a crime.

If you want to believe that even in first world nations police don't get rough with suspects and legally lie to them then you are not being realistic. This is just life (police) and is not uncommon and although wrong, doesn't reflect if a suspect is guilty or not. Although false confessions do take place, it is more likely some pressure (abuse), lies or threats often get guilty people to admit their involvement.

Don't ever compare police tactics in civilised first world nations with those of third world nations where torture is a matter of course. We are not living in the 1970s. Sadly, the same can't be said for the USA though, especially if you are an ethnic minority.

[AleG]

Welcome back AleG. It's good to have your input, because it indicates what officialdom is most spooked about. Maybe Nomsod's father did spend lots of money to protect his son. Are you saying you think he did? It's a common reaction, when the son of a rich and/or connected Thai power broker gets implicated in a crime.... Look no further than the Chalerm family or the Red Bull big shot, to name a tiny %.

The Headman mentioned his son left to return to Bangkok, on the first day of the investigation. Immediately afterward, it was evident he shouldn't have said that, so he rescinded it. It was only in the hours/days/weeks/months afterwards, that the maelstrom of other factoids showed their fuzzy heads. Nice try, AleG, but you're wrong again.

"Welcome back AleG. It's good to have your input, because it indicates what officialdom is most spooked about"

Every time you repeat things like that you look more and more delusional.

"The Headman mentioned his son left to return to Bangkok, on the first day of the investigation."

Are you backpedaling from your claim that he said he left on the morning of the murders?

Geez, that's a softball Q. 'Morning of the murders' can mean the same as 'first day of the investigation.' Last time I checked, days start with mornings.

Ah, so you meant "The Headman mentioned his son left to return to Bangkok on the first day of the investigation." not "The Headman mentioned his son left to return to Bangkok, on the first day of the investigation."

Learn to use commas properly, because what you wrote means the statement from the father is what happened on the first day of the investigation.

I suppose you won't be able to show a reputable source for the father claiming his son left the island on the same day of the murders, would you?

[IslandLover]

JohnThailandJohn, on 03 Feb 2015 - 03:34, said:JohnThailandJohn, on 03 Feb 2015 - 03:34, said:JohnThailandJohn, on 03 Feb 2015 - 03:34, said:

The sheer brutality of these murders along with the rape are not such a rare thing in Myanmar. The place which the two defendants are form saw some of the worst brutality in Myanmar where rape is rampant and used by the military as a form of control. Human rights abuses, even in recent years, are some of the worst in the world. This is a place where kids are not only used as soldiers but sold to the army for use.

Although certainly possible, it is doubtful those responsible for this crime have not been part of this kind of violence before.

All I can say is if people truly believe these two defendants, whose semen was found in one of the victims and were around the crime scene at the time of the murders per witness' and defendants own admission, then they should send money to their defense fund that is in dire need of support. After months of requests they have raised less than $15k of the $90k they are requesting. I certainly would give if I thought it could save two innocent people from being put to death. However my guess is they are murdering rapist scum but have no problem with them having the best defense team on the planet because it would take on vast and convincing conspiracy theory to undue just the fact both their semen was in one of the victims.

Finally you lay your cards on the table. But that's OK. It's your opinion and you are entitled to it, just as we are entitled to ours. However, our opinions do not necessarily make us conspiracy theorists, or morons.

Edited February 3, 2015 by IslandLover

[AleG]

loonodingle, on 01 Feb 2015 - 20:17, said:loonodingle, on 01 Feb 2015 - 20:17, said:

Correct his father stated he had to leave in a hurry as he had an exam. Not us Morons making idiotic statements. But Big Daddy....Lets see JTJ dig himself out of that or maybe he will go back to the Hoe threads. Excuse the PUN

Actually talking of Hoe's why did they move the Hoe. Or was there 2 hoe's?

10685368_1001957839821026_415836464957269570_n.jpg

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Good to see that finally there is a decent picture of the clothes that were found at the crime scene, rather than the low-quality screen grab from Thai TV that we have seen before. Interesting comments about the hoe and the pink flip-flops. Where did these pictures come from? Can you provide the source for them, Loonodingle?

Yes, it's interesting because it shows how completely clueless about image analysis this armchair detectives are, specially regarding the fliplops. They try to compare how very thin straps of unsaturated pink that would disappear among the image compression look against large items of very saturated, nearly purple colour.

Much like how some armchair detectives here wasted time using a poor quality photo of the victim's clothes line up to weave all sort of bizarre theories, like Miller's underwear being evidence that a ladyboy was present at the crime scene and such.

[AleG]

Once more, the father didn't say he left the island on the morning of the murders.

In any case it's a fun insight into the non-working logic of a conspiracy theorist: the father who has spent millions upon millions, pushed levers at all levels of government and silenced all witnesses to remove any and all suspicions from his son, then just goes out and blurts "yeah, he left the island immediately after the murders".

AleG, you must really be a despicable person in real life and I'm so glad that I've not had the misfortune to have met you.

Any normal father would have said "my son was not here" as opposed to "my son had left BEFORE the murders".

You are most probably in denial of your own personal circumstances.

"AleG, you must really be a despicable person in real life and I'm so glad that I've not had the misfortune to have met you."

I'm curious about how you reached that conclusion. Is it because you feel inadequate to argue things in a rational way and must lash out with insults?

[AleG]

Gweiloman, on 02 Feb 2015 - 10:10, said:

stephen terry, on 02 Feb 2015 - 09:31, said:

I cannot imagine any reasonable scenario where the Burmese 2 killed David without a murder weapon, and then raped and brutally murdered Hannah with a newly found hoe, which only has her DNA on it. No logic, no emotive motivation for killing. Which leads me to the obvious conclusion that the so called reported DNA sperm match is fictitious.

But to backtrack. David was killed by something, or at least rendered unconscious and left to drown. BKK autopsy reports suggested that David defended himself. Why wasn't there DNA evidence on him that matched the Burmese 2? However, against all common-sense and lack of factual evidence, the RTP have decided to implicate the Burmese 2 with no murder weapon and no DNA.

Pretty dumb. I am hoping the defence counsel convince the judge (who will have the world's media looking at him) not to convict them of David's murder. However, while he may be convinced, it is almost certain that the B2 will have to pay the price as it's Thailand's reputation at stake. Pity, really.

"However, against all common-sense and lack of factual evidence, the RTP have decided to implicate the Burmese 2 with no murder weapon and no DNA."

Even more surprising, against all common sense and lack of factual evidence, some (supposedly educated) Westerners swallow the RTP's story, hook, line and sinker

I don't believe they are swallowing the RTP's story hook, line and sinker. Instead they are trying to prevent the truth coming out at any cost. One can only speculate as to why.

"One can only speculate as to why."

Well, go on, why?

[JohnThailandJohn]

JohnThailandJohn, on 03 Feb 2015 - 03:22, said:

The fact the two defendants said they were threatened into confessing has nothing to do with their guilt or innocence. They have withdrawn their confessions. Police should answer for any abuse of the suspects but even in first world countries that are not going to answer such inquiries from a human rights group prior to the criminal trial. There is nothing illegal about the police not responding to these inquiries. The suspects and their lawyers can bring criminal charges all on their own in Thailand if they felt police committed a criminal act. However, this is not so much criminal as it is a defense strategy which to my understanding worked as their confessions have been retracted.

If you want to believe that even in first world nations police don't get rough with suspects and legally lie to them then you are not being realistic. This is just life (police) and is not uncommon and although wrong, doesn't reflect if a suspect is guilty or not. Although false confessions do take place, it is more likely some pressure (abuse), lies or threats often get guilty people to admit their involvement.

As for the police caring about the defendants or victims families, that is not their job.

As for the defendants families, you are welcome to share their feelings and thoughts ... even if they are a lot less credible than that of the victims. The victim's family's only motivation would be to see the right people convicted. They have been informed by numerous sources such as the embassy, Thai Police, UK Coroner and UK investigators. On the other hand the victim;s family are motivated to protect their children and nobody wants to believe their loved one could commit such a crime.

If you want to believe that even in first world nations police don't get rough with suspects and legally lie to them then you are not being realistic. This is just life (police) and is not uncommon and although wrong, doesn't reflect if a suspect is guilty or not. Although false confessions do take place, it is more likely some pressure (abuse), lies or threats often get guilty people to admit their involvement.

Don't ever compare police tactics in civilised first world nations with those of third world nations where torture is a matter of course. We are not living in the 1970s. Sadly, the same can't be said for the USA though, especially if you are an ethnic minority.

You are not making sense.

Thailand is not a third world nation.

The US is one of the most developed nations in the world.

[stephen terry]

JTJ quote: 'However my guess is they are murdering rapist scum but have no problem with them having the best defense team on the planet because it would take on vast and convincing conspiracy theory to undue just the fact both their semen was in one of the victims.'

Let's discuss this underlined. It is a statement that caused the RTP to indict because the B2 DNA matched the semen samples. It doesn't make it a fact, unless you believe the RTP would not attempt to pervert the course of justice. I'm sure the defence would attempt to discredit the RTP's chain of custody from the less than forensic collection of samples to the eventual results.

What's more, one would expect that the B2 DNA would be pretty plentiful at the site - pubic hairs, spittle, blood, fingerprints on the hoe, etc. But strangely enough there is a remarkable absence of B2's DNA anywhere else reported (especially related to David Miller) - unless of course it has mysteriously been found retrospectively by the RTP.

If the whole prosecution case rests on the semen DNA, they are acting in a way that is not transparent and fair. That there has been no independent verification is tantamount to telling enquirers to f*** off. That might be the Thai way, but it does cast doubt on the veracity of their evidence.

Edited February 3, 2015 by stephen terry

[JohnThailandJohn]

JTJ quote: 'However my guess is they are murdering rapist scum but have no problem with them having the best defense team on the planet because it would take on vast and convincing conspiracy theory to undue just the fact both their semen was in one of the victims.'

Let's discuss this underlined. It is a statement that caused the RTP to indict because the B2 DNA matched the semen samples. It doesn't make it a fact, unless you believe the RTP would not attempt to pervert the course of justice. I'm sure the defence would attempt to discredit the RTP's chain of custody from the less than forensic collection of samples to the eventual results.

What's more, one would expect that the B2 DNA would be pretty plentiful at the site - pubic hairs, spittle, blood, fingerprints on the hoe, etc. But strangely enough there is a remarkable absence of B2's DNA anywhere else reported (especially related to David Miller) - unless of course it has mysteriously been found retrospectively by the RTP.

If the whole prosecution case rests on the semen DNA, they are acting in a way that is not transparent and fair. That there has been no independent verification is tantamount to telling enquirers to f*** off. That might be the Thai way, but it does cast doubt on the veracity of their evidence.

We don't know what and where there DNA was found but is was stated early on that the DNA from the semen matched other items at the crime scene including the cigarettes found near the scene where it was later confirmed the defendants were smoking and singing (witnesses and defendants themselves admit this) and if I recall it was the same brand of smokes they were seen buying on video earlier that night.

The semen DNA was collected very early in the investigation and was logged and typed at numerous labs. The DNA reports were shared and analyzed by numerous people. The DNA eventually went to at least three labs which where doing the comparisons of the hundreds of samples police were collecting. So, it would take a vast conspiracy to change the DNA initially collected the day after the murders.

The suspects Semen DNA matched that semen collected a month earlier. Their DNA can be retested over and over again as they are still around and the semen initially collected and sent to numerous labs is still on file.

Without a vast conspiracy there is simply no way to explain their semen being in the victim and in all the defendants letter writing campaigns they have not tried to explain this they simply have said things like somebody powerful is responsible for the murders and they believe the murder has already fled Thailand but then when asked by the judge who they thought might be responsible they said they were clueless.

It is a shame that their lawyer is trying to take advantage of the results of social media detectives that brought so much attention because of claims being made that turned out to be wrong (cops planting phone). It is a shame because these two are likely going to end up being executed because they are showing no remorse and taking no responsibility. They can raise as much concern as they want in the public with those that distrust the RTP and simply are just angry with Thailand or Authority but it is pointless as the case will be decided by judges who won;t be swayed by such manipulations and will look solely at the facts and evidence.

[Mooner]

JTJ quote: 'However my guess is they are murdering rapist scum but have no problem with them having the best defense team on the planet because it would take on vast and convincing conspiracy theory to undue just the fact both their semen was in one of the victims.'

Let's discuss this underlined. It is a statement that caused the RTP to indict because the B2 DNA matched the semen samples. It doesn't make it a fact, unless you believe the RTP would not attempt to pervert the course of justice. I'm sure the defence would attempt to discredit the RTP's chain of custody from the less than forensic collection of samples to the eventual results.

What's more, one would expect that the B2 DNA would be pretty plentiful at the site - pubic hairs, spittle, blood, fingerprints on the hoe, etc. But strangely enough there is a remarkable absence of B2's DNA anywhere else reported (especially related to David Miller) - unless of course it has mysteriously been found retrospectively by the RTP.

If the whole prosecution case rests on the semen DNA, they are acting in a way that is not transparent and fair. That there has been no independent verification is tantamount to telling enquirers to f*** off. That might be the Thai way, but it does cast doubt on the veracity of their evidence.

Indeed. No DNA on the hoe from David. Guess the Police overlooked this. This wasnt a priority, just get some DNA from Hannah from some suspects then build a story around it.

RTP supporters claim that because the DNA is a match and a confession under torture they must be guilty (Have the police turned up for the torture inquest?)

Meanwhile condoms found with Hannah's DNA on the inside but non on the outside.

3 sets of DNA, but only 2 people arrested

Hoe stated as the murder weapon of both victims but no DNA from David on it.

David and Hannah having sex or at least foreplay to get the boys aroused but none of Davids DNA on Hannah.

Witheld CCTV footage

Now i cant say for sure that these boys didnt do it but just some of the points raised above( and some ive missed) shows that this case is seriously flawed.

[thailandchilli]

JTJ quote: 'However my guess is they are murdering rapist scum but have no problem with them having the best defense team on the planet because it would take on vast and convincing conspiracy theory to undue just the fact both their semen was in one of the victims.'

Let's discuss this underlined. It is a statement that caused the RTP to indict because the B2 DNA matched the semen samples. It doesn't make it a fact, unless you believe the RTP would not attempt to pervert the course of justice. I'm sure the defence would attempt to discredit the RTP's chain of custody from the less than forensic collection of samples to the eventual results.

What's more, one would expect that the B2 DNA would be pretty plentiful at the site - pubic hairs, spittle, blood, fingerprints on the hoe, etc. But strangely enough there is a remarkable absence of B2's DNA anywhere else reported (especially related to David Miller) - unless of course it has mysteriously been found retrospectively by the RTP.

If the whole prosecution case rests on the semen DNA, they are acting in a way that is not transparent and fair. That there has been no independent verification is tantamount to telling enquirers to f*** off. That might be the Thai way, but it does cast doubt on the veracity of their evidence.

Indeed. No DNA on the hoe from David. Guess the Police overlooked this. This wasnt a priority, just get some DNA from Hannah from some suspects then build a story around it.

RTP supporters claim that because the DNA is a match and a confession under torture they must be guilty (Have the police turned up for the torture inquest?)

Meanwhile condoms found with Hannah's DNA on the inside but non on the outside.

3 sets of DNA, but only 2 people arrested

Hoe stated as the murder weapon of both victims but no DNA from David on it.

David and Hannah having sex or at least foreplay to get the boys aroused but none of Davids DNA on Hannah.

Witheld CCTV footage

Now i cant say for sure that these boys didnt do it but just some of the points raised above( and some ive missed) shows that this case is seriously flawed.

And dont forget to mention Hannahs DNA also on a cigarette butt. along with lipstick, not exactly fitting the story given by the RTP/prosecution.

We already know just how easy it is to have tampered with or have DNA evidence that is not trustworthy at least not in the eyes of the international community who are not conspiracy theorists but seeking justice. The UK want it independently verified, so does credible Thai media

Edited February 3, 2015 by thailandchilli

[berybert]

David's DNA wasn't found on Hannah (I typed that out slowly to help you understand it)

Is this the info the RTP have given you or did you see all the reports in the case? Just trying to figure out if this is just another bit of selective trust in terms of the RTP investigation.

No the reports the RTP gave out were that there were 3 sets of DNA found on Hannah. All were reported by the RTP to have been of Asian origin.

Or are you doing that usual trick of yours.... i.e. 'well just because they didn't say David's DNA wasn't on her doesn't mean it wasn't on her'.

Do you think they said 3 lots of Asian DNA when they meant 4 sets of DNA 3 Asian and 1 Western ?

Mind you I do like the way you are now starting to discredit the RTP to try to discredit some of the argument on here.

[JohnThailandJohn]

David's DNA wasn't found on Hannah (I typed that out slowly to help you understand it)

Is this the info the RTP have given you or did you see all the reports in the case? Just trying to figure out if this is just another bit of selective trust in terms of the RTP investigation.

No the reports the RTP gave out were that there were 3 sets of DNA found on Hannah. All were reported by the RTP to have been of Asian origin.

Or are you doing that usual trick of yours.... i.e. 'well just because they didn't say David's DNA wasn't on her doesn't mean it wasn't on her'.

Do you think they said 3 lots of Asian DNA when they meant 4 sets of DNA 3 Asian and 1 Western ?

Mind you I do like the way you are now starting to discredit the RTP to try to discredit some of the argument on here.

The reports from the RTP say the two defendants semen was found in the victim, in fact they say they have considerable evidence to show they are the murderers ---- just wanted to confirm you are being selectively in terms of what you choose to take as fact and not when it comes to RTP.

[berybert]

JTJ quote: 'However my guess is they are murdering rapist scum but have no problem with them having the best defense team on the planet because it would take on vast and convincing conspiracy theory to undue just the fact both their semen was in one of the victims.'

Let's discuss this underlined. It is a statement that caused the RTP to indict because the B2 DNA matched the semen samples. It doesn't make it a fact, unless you believe the RTP would not attempt to pervert the course of justice. I'm sure the defence would attempt to discredit the RTP's chain of custody from the less than forensic collection of samples to the eventual results.

What's more, one would expect that the B2 DNA would be pretty plentiful at the site - pubic hairs, spittle, blood, fingerprints on the hoe, etc. But strangely enough there is a remarkable absence of B2's DNA anywhere else reported (especially related to David Miller) - unless of course it has mysteriously been found retrospectively by the RTP.

If the whole prosecution case rests on the semen DNA, they are acting in a way that is not transparent and fair. That there has been no independent verification is tantamount to telling enquirers to f*** off. That might be the Thai way, but it does cast doubt on the veracity of their evidence.

Indeed. No DNA on the hoe from David. Guess the Police overlooked this. This wasnt a priority, just get some DNA from Hannah from some suspects then build a story around it.

RTP supporters claim that because the DNA is a match and a confession under torture they must be guilty (Have the police turned up for the torture inquest?)

Meanwhile condoms found with Hannah's DNA on the inside but non on the outside.

3 sets of DNA, but only 2 people arrested

Hoe stated as the murder weapon of both victims but no DNA from David on it.

David and Hannah having sex or at least foreplay to get the boys aroused but none of Davids DNA on Hannah.

Witheld CCTV footage

Now i cant say for sure that these boys didnt do it but just some of the points raised above( and some ive missed) shows that this case is seriously flawed.

And dont forget to mention Hannahs DNA also on a cigarette butt. along with lipstick, not exactly fitting the story given by the RTP/prosecution.

We already know just how easy it is to have tampered with or have DNA evidence that is not trustworthy at least not in the eyes of the international community who are not conspiracy theorists but seeking justice. The UK want it independently verified, so does credible Thai media

Is this true that Hannah's DNA was also on the ciggy butt ?

If so that changes the fact the boys got horny watching them D +H making out on the sand, to the boys shared a song and a ciggy with Hannah and all were having a good time. All were a bit tipsy and we know what happens when some girls have has a few. There she was alone with 2 not bad looking Asian men. So she goes off behind a rock with them and has a bit of fun.

There's your reason why 2 sets of Asian DNA were found inside of Hannah. DNA in Hannah and on the ciggy.

As for the 3rd lot of DNA found on her, well that doesn't matter because the RTP have forgotten all about that one.

Now you just have to work out what happened to David and Hannah after the boys went home.

[thailandchilli]

And dont forget to mention Hannahs DNA also on a cigarette butt

Is this true that Hannah's DNA was also on the ciggy butt ?

If so that changes the fact the boys got horny watching them D +H making out on the sand, to the boys shared a song and a ciggy with Hannah and all were having a good time. All were a bit tipsy and we know what happens when some girls have has a few. There she was alone with 2 not bad looking Asian men. So she goes off behind a rock with them and has a bit of fun.

There's your reason why 2 sets of Asian DNA were found inside of Hannah. DNA in Hannah and on the ciggy.

As for the 3rd lot of DNA found on her, well that doesn't matter because the RTP have forgotten all about that one.

Now you just have to work out what happened to David and Hannah after the boys went home.

Well thats whats been reported from more than one source:

There is now doubt over whether Miller was with Witheridge on the night of their deaths, as Thai police had previously claimed, according to a Mail Online report.

British backpacker David Miller may have been coming to the aid of Hannah Witheridge as she was being attacked on a Thai beach when the pair were brutally murdered, new evidence suggests.

Traces of the 23-year-old woman's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt around 50 yards from where her body was found.

There are suggestions that Witheridge shared the cigarette with her attackers before she was killed. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/thailand-beach-murders-dna-found-hannah-witheridge-traced-two-men-thought-be-killers-1466412

[greenchair]

loonodingle, on 03 Feb 2015 - 01:30, said:

CSI MM

Can you send me a PM with the link?

Be ever so grateful also

[loonodingle]

The families, who have no other motivation that to see true justice and who have MUCH more information than moronic social media detectives that have ulterior motives, have stated:

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us,"

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

"We would like to thank the officers who travelled to Thailand to review the case and the Royal Thai Police for facilitating their visit,"

"We would like to express our relief that progress is being made in Thailand and this case is finally coming to court."

It's nice that you quoted the family of the victims. Now let's quote some from the family of the suspect.

There are two set of lives here. But rtp don't care about either. Not even the courtesy of answering the abuse allegation. Not answering just make them look even more less credible than they already are.

The fact the two defendants said they were threatened into confessing has nothing to do with their guilt or innocence. They have withdrawn their confessions. Police should answer for any abuse of the suspects but even in first world countries that are not going to answer such inquiries from a human rights group prior to the criminal trial. There is nothing illegal about the police not responding to these inquiries. The suspects and their lawyers can bring criminal charges all on their own in Thailand if they felt police committed a criminal act. However, this is not so much criminal as it is a defense strategy which to my understanding worked as their confessions have been retracted.

If you want to believe that even in first world nations police don't get rough with suspects and legally lie to them then you are not being realistic. This is just life (police) and is not uncommon and although wrong, doesn't reflect if a suspect is guilty or not. Although false confessions do take place, it is more likely some pressure (abuse), lies or threats often get guilty people to admit their involvement.

As for the police caring about the defendants or victims families, that is not their job.

As for the defendants families, you are welcome to share their feelings and thoughts ... even if they are a lot less credible than that of the victims. The victim's family's only motivation would be to see the right people convicted. They have been informed by numerous sources such as the embassy, Thai Police, UK Coroner and UK investigators. On the other hand the victim;s family are motivated to protect their children and nobody wants to believe their loved one could commit such a crime.

Can you back your claim that the UK coroner have informed the families or UK investigator's. There's been no investigation in the UK. Nothing. Zilch zero. Not a single person interviewed. The UK coroner has not concluded the inquest so they families have not been informed. In fact the Thai's hadn't even submitted their file to her. She was still waiting a few weeks ago.

You need to get your facts right instead of living in your little bubble.

[loonodingle]

JTJ quote: 'However my guess is they are murdering rapist scum but have no problem with them having the best defense team on the planet because it would take on vast and convincing conspiracy theory to undue just the fact both their semen was in one of the victims.'

Let's discuss this underlined. It is a statement that caused the RTP to indict because the B2 DNA matched the semen samples. It doesn't make it a fact, unless you believe the RTP would not attempt to pervert the course of justice. I'm sure the defence would attempt to discredit the RTP's chain of custody from the less than forensic collection of samples to the eventual results.

What's more, one would expect that the B2 DNA would be pretty plentiful at the site - pubic hairs, spittle, blood, fingerprints on the hoe, etc. But strangely enough there is a remarkable absence of B2's DNA anywhere else reported (especially related to David Miller) - unless of course it has mysteriously been found retrospectively by the RTP.

If the whole prosecution case rests on the semen DNA, they are acting in a way that is not transparent and fair. That there has been no independent verification is tantamount to telling enquirers to f*** off. That might be the Thai way, but it does cast doubt on the veracity of their evidence.

We don't know what and where there DNA was found but is was stated early on that the DNA from the semen matched other items at the crime scene including the cigarettes found near the scene where it was later confirmed the defendants were smoking and singing (witnesses and defendants themselves admit this) and if I recall it was the same brand of smokes they were seen buying on video earlier that night.

The semen DNA was collected very early in the investigation and was logged and typed at numerous labs. The DNA reports were shared and analyzed by numerous people. The DNA eventually went to at least three labs which where doing the comparisons of the hundreds of samples police were collecting. So, it would take a vast conspiracy to change the DNA initially collected the day after the murders.

The suspects Semen DNA matched that semen collected a month earlier. Their DNA can be retested over and over again as they are still around and the semen initially collected and sent to numerous labs is still on file.

Without a vast conspiracy there is simply no way to explain their semen being in the victim and in all the defendants letter writing campaigns they have not tried to explain this they simply have said things like somebody powerful is responsible for the murders and they believe the murder has already fled Thailand but then when asked by the judge who they thought might be responsible they said they were clueless.

It is a shame that their lawyer is trying to take advantage of the results of social media detectives that brought so much attention because of claims being made that turned out to be wrong (cops planting phone). It is a shame because these two are likely going to end up being executed because they are showing no remorse and taking no responsibility. They can raise as much concern as they want in the public with those that distrust the RTP and simply are just angry with Thailand or Authority but it is pointless as the case will be decided by judges who won;t be swayed by such manipulations and will look solely at the facts and evidence.

Wrong. With the exception of Warot the RTP has kept forensics and DNA very tight in house. They have refused to share with Defence. They did not publish the profiles and show the matches at any time.

It has been all smoke and mirrors with Warot. 3 labs yes. But tested to what. It was supposed to be transparent but hasn't.

The UK police sent a forensic expert within the trio of officers but where denied access to the DNA to carry out verification tests. The UK police where given LIMITED access to LIMITED amounts of evidence. That's a very damning statement from the met police.

This only goes to further the suspicion that it's a cover up.

[loonodingle]

JTJ quote: 'However my guess is they are murdering rapist scum but have no problem with them having the best defense team on the planet because it would take on vast and convincing conspiracy theory to undue just the fact both their semen was in one of the victims.'

Let's discuss this underlined. It is a statement that caused the RTP to indict because the B2 DNA matched the semen samples. It doesn't make it a fact, unless you believe the RTP would not attempt to pervert the course of justice. I'm sure the defence would attempt to discredit the RTP's chain of custody from the less than forensic collection of samples to the eventual results.

What's more, one would expect that the B2 DNA would be pretty plentiful at the site - pubic hairs, spittle, blood, fingerprints on the hoe, etc. But strangely enough there is a remarkable absence of B2's DNA anywhere else reported (especially related to David Miller) - unless of course it has mysteriously been found retrospectively by the RTP.

If the whole prosecution case rests on the semen DNA, they are acting in a way that is not transparent and fair. That there has been no independent verification is tantamount to telling enquirers to f*** off. That might be the Thai way, but it does cast doubt on the veracity of their evidence.

Indeed. No DNA on the hoe from David. Guess the Police overlooked this. This wasnt a priority, just get some DNA from Hannah from some suspects then build a story around it.

RTP supporters claim that because the DNA is a match and a confession under torture they must be guilty (Have the police turned up for the torture inquest?)

Meanwhile condoms found with Hannah's DNA on the inside but non on the outside.

3 sets of DNA, but only 2 people arrested

Hoe stated as the murder weapon of both victims but no DNA from David on it.

David and Hannah having sex or at least foreplay to get the boys aroused but none of Davids DNA on Hannah.

Witheld CCTV footage

Now i cant say for sure that these boys didnt do it but just some of the points raised above( and some ive missed) shows that this case is seriously flawed.

And dont forget to mention Hannahs DNA also on a cigarette butt. along with lipstick, not exactly fitting the story given by the RTP/prosecution.

We already know just how easy it is to have tampered with or have DNA evidence that is not trustworthy at least not in the eyes of the international community who are not conspiracy theorists but seeking justice. The UK want it independently verified, so does credible Thai media

Is this true that Hannah's DNA was also on the ciggy butt ?

If so that changes the fact the boys got horny watching them D +H making out on the sand, to the boys shared a song and a ciggy with Hannah and all were having a good time. All were a bit tipsy and we know what happens when some girls have has a few. There she was alone with 2 not bad looking Asian men. So she goes off behind a rock with them and has a bit of fun.

There's your reason why 2 sets of Asian DNA were found inside of Hannah. DNA in Hannah and on the ciggy.

As for the 3rd lot of DNA found on her, well that doesn't matter because the RTP have forgotten all about that one.

Now you just have to work out what happened to David and Hannah after the boys went home.

It is true according to the RTP forensic that her DNA was on the butt. But you can't be selective when to believe them I think.

It's also alleged that Sean McAnna was in fact on the beach playing his guitar that night/morning. It's been confirmed a day then retracted by a British expat who works at a dive school on Koh Tao. It was also reported in the press and then Sean changed his story. He changed his story about his injury being from a bike accident to being stabbed by a Thai over a room for rent.

Sean McAnna holds the key in my honest opinion. Despite his protestations not one bit of evidence has surfaced of his injury being seen prior to that night. Unlike Chris Ware who has photographic evidence. However Sean has melted away. Saving his own skin. To scared to come forward. Perhaps he could be implicated someway. Who knows.

Edited February 3, 2015 by loonodingle

[AleG]

Is this true that Hannah's DNA was also on the ciggy butt ?

If so that changes the fact the boys got horny watching them D +H making out on the sand, to the boys shared a song and a ciggy with Hannah and all were having a good time. All were a bit tipsy and we know what happens when some girls have has a few. There she was alone with 2 not bad looking Asian men. So she goes off behind a rock with them and has a bit of fun.

There's your reason why 2 sets of Asian DNA were found inside of Hannah. DNA in Hannah and on the ciggy.

As for the 3rd lot of DNA found on her, well that doesn't matter because the RTP have forgotten all about that one.

Now you just have to work out what happened to David and Hannah after the boys went home.

Well thats whats been reported from more than one source:

There is now doubt over whether Miller was with Witheridge on the night of their deaths, as Thai police had previously claimed, according to a Mail Online report.

British backpacker David Miller may have been coming to the aid of Hannah Witheridge as she was being attacked on a Thai beach when the pair were brutally murdered, new evidence suggests.

Traces of the 23-year-old woman's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt around 50 yards from where her body was found.

There are suggestions that Witheridge shared the cigarette with her attackers before she was killed. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/thailand-beach-murders-dna-found-hannah-witheridge-traced-two-men-thought-be-killers-1466412

The usual conspiracy theory schtick, try to connect dots based on speculation, such as this:

"Traces of the 23-year-old woman's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt"

That doesn't mean that second DNA is from her killer or the two Burmese suspects (assuming they are not the same)

"There are suggestions that Witheridge shared the cigarette with her attackers before she was killed"

Oh, suggestions, well, case closed then.

[thailandchilli]

Is this true that Hannah's DNA was also on the ciggy butt ?

If so that changes the fact the boys got horny watching them D +H making out on the sand, to the boys shared a song and a ciggy with Hannah and all were having a good time. All were a bit tipsy and we know what happens when some girls have has a few. There she was alone with 2 not bad looking Asian men. So she goes off behind a rock with them and has a bit of fun.

There's your reason why 2 sets of Asian DNA were found inside of Hannah. DNA in Hannah and on the ciggy.

As for the 3rd lot of DNA found on her, well that doesn't matter because the RTP have forgotten all about that one.

Now you just have to work out what happened to David and Hannah after the boys went home.

Well thats whats been reported from more than one source:

There is now doubt over whether Miller was with Witheridge on the night of their deaths, as Thai police had previously claimed, according to a Mail Online report.

British backpacker David Miller may have been coming to the aid of Hannah Witheridge as she was being attacked on a Thai beach when the pair were brutally murdered, new evidence suggests.

Traces of the 23-year-old woman's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt around 50 yards from where her body was found.

There are suggestions that Witheridge shared the cigarette with her attackers before she was killed. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/thailand-beach-murders-dna-found-hannah-witheridge-traced-two-men-thought-be-killers-1466412

The usual conspiracy theory schtick, try to connect dots based on speculation, such as this:

"Traces of the 23-year-old woman's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt"

That doesn't mean that second DNA is from her killer or the two Burmese suspects (assuming they are not the same)

"There are suggestions that Witheridge shared the cigarette with her attackers before she was killed"

Oh, suggestions, well, case closed then.

Well better to make that accusation of being a conspiracy theorist to the reporter concerned seeing as the media are now apparently in on the act.

Case closed. Really?

[berybert]

Is this true that Hannah's DNA was also on the ciggy butt ?

If so that changes the fact the boys got horny watching them D +H making out on the sand, to the boys shared a song and a ciggy with Hannah and all were having a good time. All were a bit tipsy and we know what happens when some girls have has a few. There she was alone with 2 not bad looking Asian men. So she goes off behind a rock with them and has a bit of fun.

There's your reason why 2 sets of Asian DNA were found inside of Hannah. DNA in Hannah and on the ciggy.

As for the 3rd lot of DNA found on her, well that doesn't matter because the RTP have forgotten all about that one.

Now you just have to work out what happened to David and Hannah after the boys went home.

Well thats whats been reported from more than one source:

There is now doubt over whether Miller was with Witheridge on the night of their deaths, as Thai police had previously claimed, according to a Mail Online report.

British backpacker David Miller may have been coming to the aid of Hannah Witheridge as she was being attacked on a Thai beach when the pair were brutally murdered, new evidence suggests.

Traces of the 23-year-old woman's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt around 50 yards from where her body was found.

There are suggestions that Witheridge shared the cigarette with her attackers before she was killed. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/thailand-beach-murders-dna-found-hannah-witheridge-traced-two-men-thought-be-killers-1466412

The usual conspiracy theory schtick, try to connect dots based on speculation, such as this:

"Traces of the 23-year-old woman's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt"

That doesn't mean that second DNA is from her killer or the two Burmese suspects (assuming they are not the same)

"There are suggestions that Witheridge shared the cigarette with her attackers before she was killed"

Oh, suggestions, well, case closed then.

Well you have changed you tune again I see. Wasn't it you who claimed B and C's DNA was found on the cigarette and A and B's DNA found on the body ?

I guess no matter what people discuss on a discussion forum, you will try to prove them wrong. Even admitting your pervious statement about who's DNA was found where was just some rubbish you made up to try to put someone down. Bit of a CT on the quiet arnt you ?

[boomerangutang]

The semen DNA was collected very early in the investigation and was logged and typed at numerous labs. The DNA reports were shared and analyzed by numerous people. The DNA eventually went to at least three labs which where doing the comparisons of the hundreds of samples police were collecting. So, it would take a vast conspiracy to change the DNA initially collected the day after the murders.

Where do you get that info from? As far as any of us know, the DNA trail has been kept closely under wraps. Does JTJ have anything tangible to back his claim that DNA data taken in the first days of the investigation "....was logged and typed at numerous labs. The DNA reports were shared and analyzed by numerous people." ? Let's see it. It's an assumption - that there were proper investigative procedures. Assumptions don't equal facts. There have been numerous flub-ups and obfuscating info by RTP in this badly handled case. Why would anyone (except die-hard echoers) believe the RTP handled the DNA competently.

The suspects Semen DNA matched that semen collected a month earlier. Their DNA can be retested over and over again as they are still around and the semen initially collected and sent to numerous labs is still on file.

More realistically, RTP bosses only disseminate DNA info which backs their frame-up scenario. It was hours after the replacement head cop took over, when it was announced the B2 DNA matched. It was a few weeks later, when it was announced (with fanfare) Nomsod's didn't match. There is an easy way to ensure those sorts of probably-false findings appear to be true. I've articulated how easy it can be done, in prior posts. Anyone can look them up - to see how it can be easily done.

[loonodingle]

The DNA was initially going green to Singapore and USA for verification. The RTP renaged on that and kept it in Thailand. They do not have the facilities in Thailand to produce a profile to the accuracy of some other countries detail. That was widely reported and excepted. The UK officers had the intention of verification but the RTP shut that idea down. Ask yourselves why?????..

That's non believers and believers why in such a case reported world wide would you do that.

Honest answers accepted.

[IslandLover]

AleG, on 03 Feb 2015 - 04:14, said:

IslandLover, on 03 Feb 2015 - 01:27, said:

loonodingle, on 01 Feb 2015 - 20:17, said:loonodingle, on 01 Feb 2015 - 20:17, said:loonodingle, on 01 Feb 2015 - 20:17, said:

Correct his father stated he had to leave in a hurry as he had an exam. Not us Morons making idiotic statements. But Big Daddy....Lets see JTJ dig himself out of that or maybe he will go back to the Hoe threads. Excuse the PUN

Actually talking of Hoe's why did they move the Hoe. Or was there 2 hoe's?

10685368_1001957839821026_415836464957269570_n.jpg

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10933749_1005575059459304_5161886406042291874_n2.jpg

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10888648_1001957789821031_8850310060451862834_n.jpg

Good to see that finally there is a decent picture of the clothes that were found at the crime scene, rather than the low-quality screen grab from Thai TV that we have seen before. Interesting comments about the hoe and the pink flip-flops. Where did these pictures come from? Can you provide the source for them, Loonodingle?

Yes, it's interesting because it shows how completely clueless about image analysis this armchair detectives are, specially regarding the fliplops. They try to compare how very thin straps of unsaturated pink that would disappear among the image compression look against large items of very saturated, nearly purple colour.

Much like how some armchair detectives here wasted time using a poor quality photo of the victim's clothes line up to weave all sort of bizarre theories, like Miller's underwear being evidence that a ladyboy was present at the crime scene and such.

In this instance AleG, you are basically correct but I am usually the one who will query the interpretation of the photos posted here, which is why I made the comment about the photo of the clothes from the crime scene. For what it's worth, I believe the pink flip-flops were Hannah's. What I do have a problem with are the "dark blue" shorts photographed at the crime scene and the fact that Miller's t-shirt appears to be discarded and crumpled (as you would expect) on the beach in one photo, and completely clean and placed over a rock in another. Not much preservation of "evidence" went on there, if at all.

[IslandLover]

AleG, on 03 Feb 2015 - 04:17, said:

IslandLover, on 03 Feb 2015 - 01:58, said:

Gweiloman, on 02 Feb 2015 - 10:10, said:Gweiloman, on 02 Feb 2015 - 10:10, said:

stephen terry, on 02 Feb 2015 - 09:31, said:stephen terry, on 02 Feb 2015 - 09:31, said:

I cannot imagine any reasonable scenario where the Burmese 2 killed David without a murder weapon, and then raped and brutally murdered Hannah with a newly found hoe, which only has her DNA on it. No logic, no emotive motivation for killing. Which leads me to the obvious conclusion that the so called reported DNA sperm match is fictitious.

But to backtrack. David was killed by something, or at least rendered unconscious and left to drown. BKK autopsy reports suggested that David defended himself. Why wasn't there DNA evidence on him that matched the Burmese 2? However, against all common-sense and lack of factual evidence, the RTP have decided to implicate the Burmese 2 with no murder weapon and no DNA.

Pretty dumb. I am hoping the defence counsel convince the judge (who will have the world's media looking at him) not to convict them of David's murder. However, while he may be convinced, it is almost certain that the B2 will have to pay the price as it's Thailand's reputation at stake. Pity, really.

"However, against all common-sense and lack of factual evidence, the RTP have decided to implicate the Burmese 2 with no murder weapon and no DNA."

Even more surprising, against all common sense and lack of factual evidence, some (supposedly educated) Westerners swallow the RTP's story, hook, line and sinker

I don't believe they are swallowing the RTP's story hook, line and sinker. Instead they are trying to prevent the truth coming out at any cost. One can only speculate as to why.

"One can only speculate as to why."

Well, go on, why?

Do you really want me to spell it out? On second thoughts, I don't want to incur the wrath of the moderators.

[IslandLover]

JohnThailandJohn, on 03 Feb 2015 - 04:25, said:

IslandLover, on 03 Feb 2015 - 04:07, said:

JohnThailandJohn, on 03 Feb 2015 - 03:22, said:

JohnThailandJohn, on 03 Feb 2015 - 03:22, said:

The fact the two defendants said they were threatened into confessing has nothing to do with their guilt or innocence. They have withdrawn their confessions. Police should answer for any abuse of the suspects but even in first world countries that are not going to answer such inquiries from a human rights group prior to the criminal trial. There is nothing illegal about the police not responding to these inquiries. The suspects and their lawyers can bring criminal charges all on their own in Thailand if they felt police committed a criminal act. However, this is not so much criminal as it is a defense strategy which to my understanding worked as their confessions have been retracted.

If you want to believe that even in first world nations police don't get rough with suspects and legally lie to them then you are not being realistic. This is just life (police) and is not uncommon and although wrong, doesn't reflect if a suspect is guilty or not. Although false confessions do take place, it is more likely some pressure (abuse), lies or threats often get guilty people to admit their involvement.

As for the police caring about the defendants or victims families, that is not their job.

As for the defendants families, you are welcome to share their feelings and thoughts ... even if they are a lot less credible than that of the victims. The victim's family's only motivation would be to see the right people convicted. They have been informed by numerous sources such as the embassy, Thai Police, UK Coroner and UK investigators. On the other hand the victim;s family are motivated to protect their children and nobody wants to believe their loved one could commit such a crime.

If you want to believe that even in first world nations police don't get rough with suspects and legally lie to them then you are not being realistic. This is just life (police) and is not uncommon and although wrong, doesn't reflect if a suspect is guilty or not. Although false confessions do take place, it is more likely some pressure (abuse), lies or threats often get guilty people to admit their involvement.

Don't ever compare police tactics in civilised first world nations with those of third world nations where torture is a matter of course. We are not living in the 1970s. Sadly, the same can't be said for the USA though, especially if you are an ethnic minority.

You are not making sense.

Thailand is not a third world nation.

The US is one of the most developed nations in the world.

Thailand is not a third world nation.

Thailand is not a first world nation either, and there is no term "second world" in use in the English language. But if you must be so politically-correct then "developing" or "emerging" may be more appropriate. But that's not the issue here. The issue is countries whose law enforcement find it acceptable to coerce, physically abuse and torture people.

The US is one of the most developed nations in the world.

I never said, or implied it wasn't. All I will say is that the police in the USA appear to have no qualms about beating up a suspect, whereas in most other western countries that is no longer acceptable.

[AleG]

"One can only speculate as to why."

Well, go on, why?

Do you really want me to spell it out? On second thoughts, I don't want to incur the wrath of the moderators.

Yes I would like you to spell it out, why so coy?

[AleG]

The usual conspiracy theory schtick, try to connect dots based on speculation, such as this:

"Traces of the 23-year-old woman's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt"

That doesn't mean that second DNA is from her killer or the two Burmese suspects (assuming they are not the same)

"There are suggestions that Witheridge shared the cigarette with her attackers before she was killed"

Oh, suggestions, well, case closed then.

Well you have changed you tune again I see. Wasn't it you who claimed B and C's DNA was found on the cigarette and A and B's DNA found on the body ?

I guess no matter what people discuss on a discussion forum, you will try to prove them wrong. Even admitting your pervious statement about who's DNA was found where was just some rubbish you made up to try to put someone down. Bit of a CT on the quiet arnt you ?

I don't change my tune, I stick to facts and rational thinking. You wouldn't understand that.

"Wasn't it you who claimed B and C's DNA was found on the cigarette and A and B's DNA found on the body ?"

No, it wasn't me claiming it, it was one of the investigators on the case.

"I guess no matter what people discuss on a discussion forum, you will try to prove them wrong."

No, it's not like that, it's that you are wrong pretty consistently, so you feel singled out.

How about you prove yourself right instead (fat chance), you said Hanna's DNA was in a cigarette butt together with the DNA from one of the Burmese suspects.

Of course you can't prove yourself right on that, because you simply made it up... as usual.

"Even admitting your pervious statement about who's DNA was found where was just some rubbish you made up to try to put someone down. Bit of a CT on the quiet arnt you ?"

I admitted what? You don't make sense... as usual.

[berybert]

The usual conspiracy theory schtick, try to connect dots based on speculation, such as this:

"Traces of the 23-year-old woman's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt"

That doesn't mean that second DNA is from her killer or the two Burmese suspects (assuming they are not the same)

"There are suggestions that Witheridge shared the cigarette with her attackers before she was killed"

Oh, suggestions, well, case closed then.

Well you have changed you tune again I see. Wasn't it you who claimed B and C's DNA was found on the cigarette and A and B's DNA found on the body ?

I guess no matter what people discuss on a discussion forum, you will try to prove them wrong. Even admitting your pervious statement about who's DNA was found where was just some rubbish you made up to try to put someone down. Bit of a CT on the quiet arnt you ?

I don't change my tune, I stick to facts and rational thinking. You wouldn't understand that.

"Wasn't it you who claimed B and C's DNA was found on the cigarette and A and B's DNA found on the body ?"

No, it wasn't me claiming it, it was one of the investigators on the case.

"I guess no matter what people discuss on a discussion forum, you will try to prove them wrong."

No, it's not like that, it's that you are wrong pretty consistently, so you feel singled out.

How about you prove yourself right instead (fat chance), you said Hanna's DNA was in a cigarette butt together with the DNA from one of the Burmese suspects.

Of course you can't prove yourself right on that, because you simply made it up... as usual.

"Even admitting your pervious statement about who's DNA was found where was just some rubbish you made up to try to put someone down. Bit of a CT on the quiet arnt you ?"

I admitted what? You don't make sense... as usual.

"Is this true that Hannah's DNA was also on the ciggy butt" ?... Is this what you consider to be a claim ? I would consider that to be a question.

I am not sure you have yet to prove me wrong on anything yet. When you make a claim and someone proves it wrong you then claim it wasn't you who claimed it but an investigator.

When I do the same i.e. Traces of the 23-year-old woman's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt around 50 yards from where her body was found.

There are suggestions that Witheridge shared the cigarette with her attackers before she was killed. http://www.ibtimes.c...killers-1466412

I am claimed to have made it up.

Despite someone actually posting a link to the question I posed you still choose to call me a liar.

You need to up your game a bit.