Swedes rally in support of mosques after arson attacks

[Morch]

I realise that religion has taken a long time to leave it's evil killing ways behind but we are now in the 21st century and an age where all people know how the world works,Islam seems to be the only faith that,still resides in the middle ages and doing the same evil things that Christianity did ,will they ever change? Doesn't look like it from where I'm sitting

Wouldn't go so far as to say "all people know how the world works". Might be true, in a partial way to the more privileged quarters of the globe, and that's debatable as well.

Christianity had 600+ years head start on Islam, and without getting into more theological debate, it lends itself better to alterations and amendments.

The point is exactly this, that from where we sit today, current processes which will one day be passages in history books, are not usually discernible.

But I definitely agree that this is a small consolation, if at all, when things are happening outside one's doorstep. This is why I do not have many issues with calls for stricter immigration practices, it might not turn the tide, but it could pass the troublesome bits further and make it another generation's issue.

[i claudius]

A long as they stay in their own lands killing each other and do not import their ways and religion to the west,who cares what they do

[Ulysses G.]

A long as they stay in their own lands killing each other and do not import their ways and religion to the west,who cares what they do

It's a little late for that.

[i claudius]

And it's only the beginning,but as we see in Sweden and Germany,this is the tip of A massive iceberg,nothing now can stop what is about to erupt in the years to come

[Morch]

A long as they stay in their own lands killing each other and do not import their ways and religion to the west,who cares what they do

Well, for one thing, warfare got easy to be exported and range get farther each decade.

Other than that, there are obvious economic consideration not favoring an all out war in certain areas of the globe. Thirdly, not all of the immigrants are trouble - this is more a question of proper controls.

[ZAKY]

If muslims want to live like muslims they must go in their country where they can be free to live among themselves and practise their culture and religion, behead, whip their own people in the name of their own god

[JDGRUEN]

Egyptian president Abdel Fattah al-Sisi is exercising some Political Clout and calling for Revolutionary rethinking about Islam...

If there is any hope in turning the direction of the current march of Islam - maybe it can start here...

Breaking: Hamas chief, Muslim Brotherhood officials expelled from Qatar

Looks like the diplomatic efforts of Egyptian president Abdel Fattah al-Sisi may have paid off. Khaled Mashaal, who ran the recent Hamas war on Israel from the safety of Doha where he has long kept his organization’s worldwide headquarters, got kicked out of Qatar altogether — along with the Muslim Brotherhood.

http://hotair.com/archives/2015/01/06/breaking-hamas-chief-muslim-brotherhood-officials-expelled-from-qatar/

Edited January 6, 2015 by JDGRUEN

[zydeco]

And it's only the beginning,but as we see in Sweden and Germany,this is the tip of A massive iceberg,nothing now can stop what is about to erupt in the years to come

And today France.

[7by7]

<snip>

why do you keep using the word 'Islamophobe'?

As if it is some kind of insult?

It's inaccurate anyway. A phobia is an irrational fear. There's nothing irrational about fearing Islam

Kind of like the word 'infidel'. To be worn with pride.

Islamophobia and it's derivatives are recognised words in the English language.

Islamophobia

noun

Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

That you wear your prejudice with pride speaks volumes about you.

How do you feel about those Thais who wear their prejudice against Farang with pride?

There is nothing irrational in fearing terrorists of any political or religious persuasion; what is irrational is using the atrocities of those terrorists to demonise and preach hate against a whole religion.

Edited January 7, 2015 by 7by7

[7by7]

I come from a town in the UK that 30 years ago had quite a few Muslims,they dressed like us and went about their business,no women wore burkhas or covered themselves from head to toe ,we all seemed to get along,eventually they built a mosque,and more came who did not dress in western clothes ,then they built two more mosques and started to demand their rights ,The Mecca bingo hall had to close,guess why ,then you could not have advertising boards with women on ,then they rioted(never got into the national news)now where they live looks like a foreign country, and is virtually a no go area ,Muslims don't ya just love how they integrate?

The only protests in the UK about Mecca Bingo were in Luton in November 1998 when the name of Top Rank Bingo was changed to Mecca Bingo.

The hall did not close; it's still there and it's still called Mecca Bingo! Welcome to Mecca Luton Skimpot Road.

Admittedly I haven't been to Luton for a while, but the last time I was there I did not notice any difference between advertising there and elsewhere; including other areas with a high Muslim population. Though, of course, advertisers are not going to pay for adverts in areas where there is no market for their products. You wont see many adverts for pork sausages or bacon in Stamford Hill, for example. (For those who don't know, Stamford Hill is an area of London with a majority population of Haredi Jews.)

Luton riots? Do you mean in 2009: Nine rioters arrested after 'Luton protest turned violent'

The crowd, which had gathered for a peaceful protest against Muslims who denounced troops returning from Iraq in March, was supposed to be escorted by police along a planned route.

But officers ended up fighting running battles with protesters after the some of mob bolted and began attacking Asian residents.

I have no truck with anyone who denounces our troops, and it is not just Muslims who do so. Protest against a war if your feel strongly against it; but not the soldiers who have to fight it; direct your ire at the politicians.

But attacking people merely for being Asian? It is obvious that certain elements in what was supposed to be a peaceful protest were intent on causing trouble.

Or the 2011 riots in many parts of the UK, including Luton, sparked by the police shooting of Mark Duggan? No Islamic connection.

Maybe you mean the Marsh Farm Estate riots in 1992 and again1995; both of which had no Islamic connection.

So called Muslim enforced no go areas in the UK have been discussed at length elsewhere. As has been repeatedly proven, those who try and enforce such are breaking the law, arrested, prosecuted and jailed. For example: Muslim vigilantes jailed for 'sharia law' attacks in London.

Islamaphobes; don't ya just love how they ignore facts!

Oh so Luton had these problems as well.

dont ya love how the PC left wing crowd ignore facts.

As the only protests about a Mecca Bingo hall were in Luton, it is reasonable to assume it was Luton you were talking about. If not Luton, where?

[Prbkk]

And it's only the beginning,but as we see in Sweden and Germany,this is the tip of A massive iceberg,nothing now can stop what is about to erupt in the years to come

And today France.

...and while no doubt that will be the subject of another thread it seems certain to me that the backlash in France will be strong. Michel Houellebecq , who might have been an unknowing trigger for this lunacy, seems quite prescient rather than the fanatic he is often painted as.

[7by7]

Lol, if you (7by7) want facts about Luton, here is the recollections of a Luton lad you may know. The authorities and press have told you what they think of him in the earnest hope you don't listen to what he has to say. Worth every single minute this IMHO.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GyzGayfI400

Ah yes, Tommy Robinson, aka Andrew McMaster, aka Paul Harris, real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (why does he need so many names?).

A convicted football hooligan, convicted of drug offences and imprisoned for 12 months after he assaulted an off duty police officer who intervened to prevent him from beating up his then girlfriend.

This is the man you see as an example to follow?

[zydeco]

At least 11 dead after terror attack on French satirical magazine. Sounds like you know who did the killing.

[Ulysses G.]

deleted

Edited January 7, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts have been removed. The news team has been made aware of the Paris story and will post as soon as they have a permitted source.

[i claudius]

How is it unsafe to criticize Muslims in the Netherlands ? I know of only 1 guy who died because of it and they got the person who did it. It happened before I even left for Thailand (if i still remember correctly) That is not too bad that is 1 incident in more then 10 years.

Your remark about Muslims doing the bombing in Thailand and killing.. you are right.. but you forget one important thing. They kill other Muslims there too. So how do you explain that if its all aimed at Buddists or if all Muslims are bad.. why then do these Muslims get killed by other Muslims.

Dutch politician Geert Wilders who openly criticizes Islam has to live under constant police protection in Holland due to death threats from Muslims.

Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh, who made a controversial film about Islamic culture, was assassinated in Amsterdam in 2004 by a Muslim.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been under police protection since the above film was aired, for her part in the film and her criticism of the treatment of women in Islamic culture.

Pat condell's views on Sweden:

Yes and the people who are responsible for the threats on Geert wilders and Ayaan Hirsi Ali should all be caught tried and prosecuted its totally unaceptable. They got the guy who killed Theo van Gogh but are now not so sure he acted alone. They should find out for sure and then take action. It is absolutely wrong to use violence or to curb the freedom of speech of Wilders and others.

People who are responsible should be put in jail and deported later on. NO argument from me there.

But on the same token the people who burn mosques are criminals too and the people supporting them. I see many here in this topic are as bad as the extreme Muslims they hate.

I think that they WERE not as bad as the extreme muslims,but after seeing what Muslims have done in the west and indeed in their own lands they have become that way ,20 years ag i couldnt care less ,now i have no time for them whatever.

[i claudius]

''Anti-racist demonstrators in the capital, Stockholm, waved placards and a banner with the words "Don't touch my mosque,"

In the future shall we see ''Anti-racist demonstrators in Muslims countries waving placards and a banner with the words''Don't touch my church''?

when hell freezes over

[7by7]

That some countries do not allow the same freedoms that we enjoy in the west is no reason for us to curtail or restrict those freedoms.

I am proud to come from a culture which has those freedoms, including freedom of religion. You, apparently, are not!

BTW, as far as I can discover, the only Muslim country which does not allow public places or expressions of non Muslim worship is Saudi Arabia. No doubt you will correct me if I am wrong.

[Mosha]

That some countries do not allow the same freedoms that we enjoy in the west is no reason for us to curtail or restrict those freedoms.

I am proud to come from a culture which has those freedoms, including freedom of religion. You, apparently, are not!

BTW, as far as I can discover, the only Muslim country which does not allow public places or expressions of non Muslim worship is Saudi Arabia. No doubt you will correct me if I am wrong.

Freedoms? My brother's BIL was a fire chief in Mirfield, He was called to a meeting at the council officers. He arrived early, so he went to the canteen and ordered a coffee. When asked how do you want it, without thinking he replied as he would at friends and families homes. "White please.". He was reported and disciplined.

[Morch]

That some countries do not allow the same freedoms that we enjoy in the west is no reason for us to curtail or restrict those freedoms.

I am proud to come from a culture which has those freedoms, including freedom of religion. You, apparently, are not!

BTW, as far as I can discover, the only Muslim country which does not allow public places or expressions of non Muslim worship is Saudi Arabia. No doubt you will correct me if I am wrong.

Seems like many of the issues got to do with self-curtailing Western freedoms in the West to accommodate or appease Muslims. Are there other notable minorities in the West which continuously raise issues of changes in Western ideals (as a reflected in the life style, culture and a myriad other things) in the name of accommodating the wishes of the minority?

Surely, more than one minority group tries to get better overall conditions which allows it to keep its identity, fair enough up to a point. It seems that the popular sentiment in the West is that the Muslim minority is pushing the line on this front. The other issue being aggression and violence related to these instances, which is not usually displayed to the same level by other minorities.

Muslim countries may legally allow public worship of other religions. My personal experience is that it might not be the wisest move to test the level of which locals adhere to the law in some Muslim communities. Overly relying on local law enforcement officials for support is, similarly, not advised.

[simple1]

That some countries do not allow the same freedoms that we enjoy in the west is no reason for us to curtail or restrict those freedoms.

I am proud to come from a culture which has those freedoms, including freedom of religion. You, apparently, are not!

BTW, as far as I can discover, the only Muslim country which does not allow public places or expressions of non Muslim worship is Saudi Arabia. No doubt you will correct me if I am wrong.

Seems like many of the issues got to do with self-curtailing Western freedoms in the West to accommodate or appease Muslims.

Are there other notable minorities in the West which continuously raise issues of changes in Western ideals (as a reflected in the life style, culture and a myriad other things) in the name of accommodating the wishes of the minority?

Surely, more than one minority group tries to get better overall conditions which allows it to keep its identity, fair enough up to a point. It seems that the popular sentiment in the West is that the Muslim minority is pushing the line on this front. The other issue being aggression and violence related to these instances, which is not usually displayed to the same level by other minorities.

Muslim countries may legally allow public worship of other religions. My personal experience is that it might not be the wisest move to test the level of which locals adhere to the law in some Muslim communities. Overly relying on local law enforcement officials for support is, similarly, not advised.

Accept your comments concerning the law versus the reality of freedom of worship in some Muslim majority countries.

What are the issues that law abiding Muslims are raising in Western democratic societies that people find so challenging? The more extreme elements of the Muslim community can call for the likes of Sharia Criminal Law, but it just isn't going to happen. To my knowledge matters that are counter to the existing law and culture of our societies are not being enacted into law or practice. e.g. Rabid commentary on the banning of Xmas cultural norms usually proves to be a hoax or rapidly overturned if the issue comes to light.

Day to day matters such as halal and Sharia Civil Law are the same as those applying to the wishes of the Jewish community’s culture. One does not hear continuous howls of protest concerning Jewish cultural practice of kosher food or Beth Din.

Aside from Islamic fascism, personally my concern is the rise of the more extreme right wing political parties that appear to be beloved by some on this forum. If the right wing gained power in our home countries they would in short order undermine the democratic & law enforcement principles to which reasonable people adhere.

You & I have kind of agreed there will be pain and blood shed fighting Islamic extremism in our home countries over the foreseeable future, but let not our societies surrender to fear and hate.

[AyG]

Day to day matters such as halal and Sharia Civil Law are the same as those applying to the wishes of the Jewish communitys culture. One does not hear continuous howls of protest concerning Jewish cultural practice of kosher food or Beth Din.

Whilst personally I find ritual slaughter by either religion distasteful, the difference is that I won't ever personally have to eat kosher meat. However, without a shadow of a doubt I will have eaten halal meat without being told the meat is halal since there is no requirement for it to be labelled as such in restaurant or supermarket. And in many places (hospitals, schools, prisons, airplanes, &c.) one can no longer be served pork thanks to pressure from Moslems, not Jews.

As for religious courts, one has to admit that Shariah courts are heavily biased against women, which strikes me as being against natural justice. I haven't heard the same complaint made against Jewish courts.

So, there are good reasons for a higher level of concern about Islam than Judaism in society.

[Morch]

That some countries do not allow the same freedoms that we enjoy in the west is no reason for us to curtail or restrict those freedoms.

I am proud to come from a culture which has those freedoms, including freedom of religion. You, apparently, are not!

BTW, as far as I can discover, the only Muslim country which does not allow public places or expressions of non Muslim worship is Saudi Arabia. No doubt you will correct me if I am wrong.

Seems like many of the issues got to do with self-curtailing Western freedoms in the West to accommodate or appease Muslims.

Are there other notable minorities in the West which continuously raise issues of changes in Western ideals (as a reflected in the life style, culture and a myriad other things) in the name of accommodating the wishes of the minority?

Surely, more than one minority group tries to get better overall conditions which allows it to keep its identity, fair enough up to a point. It seems that the popular sentiment in the West is that the Muslim minority is pushing the line on this front. The other issue being aggression and violence related to these instances, which is not usually displayed to the same level by other minorities.

Muslim countries may legally allow public worship of other religions. My personal experience is that it might not be the wisest move to test the level of which locals adhere to the law in some Muslim communities. Overly relying on local law enforcement officials for support is, similarly, not advised.

Accept your comments concerning the law versus the reality of freedom of worship in some Muslim majority countries.

What are the issues that law abiding Muslims are raising in Western democratic societies that people find so challenging? The more extreme elements of the Muslim community can call for the likes of Sharia Criminal Law, but it just isn't going to happen. To my knowledge matters that are counter to the existing law and culture of our societies are not being enacted into law or practice. e.g. Rabid commentary on the banning of Xmas cultural norms usually proves to be a hoax or rapidly overturned if the issue comes to light.

Day to day matters such as halal and Sharia Civil Law are the same as those applying to the wishes of the Jewish community’s culture. One does not hear continuous howls of protest concerning Jewish cultural practice of kosher food or Beth Din.

Aside from Islamic fascism, personally my concern is the rise of the more extreme right wing political parties that appear to be beloved by some on this forum. If the right wing gained power in our home countries they would in short order undermine the democratic & law enforcement principles to which reasonable people adhere.

You & I have kind of agreed there will be pain and blood shed fighting Islamic extremism in our home countries over the foreseeable future, but let not our societies surrender to fear and hate.

There are law-abiding members of all minorities and all religious affiliations, it can even be claimed that they are the majority within their respective communities. When one compares how vocal, prominent or demanding the segment of so-called "bad apples" and malcontents between minority groups, it seems that Muslims tend to be at the forefront. Some may claim it to be bias, bad PR, and undue focus on one group. While not denying that some of these elements exist, they do not occur in a vacuum - elements in Muslim communities and their conduct certainly got something to do with it.

The issue is not whether Sharia law will actually replace existing legal systems in Europe due to Muslim groups advocating it. The thing is that there are no constant similar demands and notions raised by any other group that I can think of, at least not anything coming near the scope of issues mentioned.

As someone posted here, Halal food is not optional in some places, its a standard. Similar Jewish issues are not applied to the population as a whole, nor, to the best of my knowledge was there ever a demand for it to be otherwise. On the same note, one does not hear much about Jewish demands to replace the law of the land with their own version. The comparison just highlights the original argument.

I share your view that the rise of certain right wing parties and forces in Europe is unfortunate, and possibly dangerous. On the other hand, it seems that some of the policies carried out by current governments are problematic as well. Hopefully, the latter could be amended and the former could be avoided. While, considering how democratic systems function, both hopes will most likely fail to materialize, it does not mean people need to give up.

[JockPieandBeans]

What are the issues that law abiding Muslims are raising in Western democratic societies that people find so challenging?

Simple 1

Parents have reacted with outrage over plans to start serving only Halal meat to school pupils.

Management at Larkswood Primary in New Road, Chingford, will stop providing meat slaughtered using 'standard' methods and replace it with food which is prepared according to the rituals of Islam from mid-April.

Parents told the Guardian they had no objection to Muslim children practising their faith and eating Halal meat at the school.

But said they did not want such religious beliefs imposed on their own offspring.

www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/.../10308743.Row_over_Halal.

Parents have condemned a school's decision to ban all pork products from the menu and replace other meats with halal versions.

Pupils aged between three and 11 at Brinsworth Manor Infant and Junior Schools in Rotherham - which Ofsted identifies as having only a small number of pupils from minority ethnic groups - will no longer be able to enjoy sausages, bacon or ham.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2575724/Parents-fury-pork-sausages-banned-school-menu-replaced-halal-meat.html

All being done by stealth

Edited January 9, 2015 by JockPieandBeans

[Steely Dan]

Lol, if you (7by7) want facts about Luton, here is the recollections of a Luton lad you may know. The authorities and press have told you what they think of him in the earnest hope you don't listen to what he has to say. Worth every single minute this IMHO.

Ah yes, Tommy Robinson, aka Andrew McMaster, aka Paul Harris, real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (why does he need so many names?).

A convicted football hooligan, convicted of drug offences and imprisoned for 12 months after he assaulted an off duty police officer who intervened to prevent him from beating up his then girlfriend.

This is the man you see as an example to follow?

If you kept upsetting the more hot headed supporters of Mohammad I'm sure you would have more than a few aliases. Still I suspect the majority of people who watch the link will conclude his views have far more grounding in reality than some of our esteemed posters here, mentioning no names. Edited January 9, 2015 by Steely Dan

[7by7]

My brother's BIL was a fire chief in Mirfield, He was called to a meeting at the council officers. He arrived early, so he went to the canteen and ordered a coffee. When asked how do you want it, without thinking he replied as he would at friends and families homes. "White please.". He was reported and disciplined.

If that is true, then it is ridiculous.

I have on many occasions ordered white coffee and tea in many places, including local authority and government cafeterias, without any problems; ever.

[7by7]

Lol, if you (7by7) want facts about Luton, here is the recollections of a Luton lad you may know. The authorities and press have told you what they think of him in the earnest hope you don't listen to what he has to say. Worth every single minute this IMHO.

Ah yes, Tommy Robinson, aka Andrew McMaster, aka Paul Harris, real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (why does he need so many names?).

A convicted football hooligan, convicted of drug offences and imprisoned for 12 months after he assaulted an off duty police officer who intervened to prevent him from beating up his then girlfriend.

This is the man you see as an example to follow?

If you kept upsetting the more hot headed supporters of Mohammad I'm sure you would have more than a few aliases. Still I suspect the majority of people who watch the link will conclude his views have far more grounding in reality than some of our esteemed posters here, mentioning no names.

If he is afraid of retaliation, why does he continuously publicise himself on You Tube and social media? Why does he attempt to be a rent a quote on Islamic issues? Why does he deliberately try and provoke a reaction from Muslims?

His use of aliases has nothing to do with any fear of retaliation; he's well enough known as it is by his current favourite, Tommy Robinson. He even claims to have been attacked by Muslims for his views.

I see you have refrained from commenting on his views on football hooliganism, illegal drugs, beating up women and police officers etc.. Are they 'grounded in reality?' Do you agree with him on these issues?

The man is a proven thug. If he has the answer; it must have been a bloody stupid question!

[7by7]

The issue of Halal and Kosher, Sharia courts and Beth Din etc. in the UK has been gone over at length in this topic.

Isn't this topic is supposed to be about Sweden?

Edited January 9, 2015 by 7by7

[Steely Dan]

Lol, if you (7by7) want facts about Luton, here is the recollections of a Luton lad you may know. The authorities and press have told you what they think of him in the earnest hope you don't listen to what he has to say. Worth every single minute this IMHO.

Ah yes, Tommy Robinson, aka Andrew McMaster, aka Paul Harris, real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (why does he need so many names?).

A convicted football hooligan, convicted of drug offences and imprisoned for 12 months after he assaulted an off duty police officer who intervened to prevent him from beating up his then girlfriend.

This is the man you see as an example to follow?

If you kept upsetting the more hot headed supporters of Mohammad I'm sure you would have more than a few aliases. Still I suspect the majority of people who watch the link will conclude his views have far more grounding in reality than some of our esteemed posters here, mentioning no names.

If he is afraid of retaliation, why does he continuously publicise himself on You Tube and social media? Why does he attempt to be a rent a quote on Islamic issues? Why does he deliberately try and provoke a reaction from Muslims?

His use of aliases has nothing to do with any fear of retaliation; he's well enough known as it is by his current favourite, Tommy Robinson. He even claims to have been attacked by Muslims for his views.

I see you have refrained from commenting on his views on football hooliganism, illegal drugs, beating up women and police officers etc.. Are they 'grounded in reality?' Do you agree with him on these issues?

The man is a proven thug. If he has the answer; it must have been a bloody stupid question!

I won't respond on the smear campaign Liberals carry out against all their political opponents save to say watch the video to see why the 'assault charges' were dropped. I note similar smear campaigns are the norm with progressives defending their multicultural deity both on the UK, Europe and particularly Scandinavian Countries. As for why he speaks out against a backwards fascist and frankly evil ideology, well if you can't realize the importance of so doing you really are beyond hope.

[squarethecircle]

"You & I have kind of agreed there will be pain and blood shed fighting Islamic extremism in our home countries over the foreseeable future, but let not our societies surrender to fear and hate."

It is normal to fear people who think you and your family should be destroyed. Hatred is a normal response back as well.