When is too old just too old or IOW, am I too old to be a Monk?

[fabianfred]

If you have a friend who is already a forest monk then fine, go and be his pupil, or better still ordain as a novice and do so. I'm pretty sure that there are no age restrictions to being ordained as a novice and one has less rules to follow.

I was a monk for two years but disrobed to look after my kids. I may yet ordain again when they are grown up but since i am already 63 I may have the same problem as you so might end up just being a novice.

Nothing wrong with that, although many Thais ignore novices and prefer to make merit with full monks... which is OK providing that the monks are practicing as they should otherwise a more devout novice would gain them more merit.

[gyrosman]

If you haven't found FAITH in your 7 decades in life why are you seeking it now?

[n210mp]

"The daily lifestyle in a suburb on the darkside of of Pattaya whilst stimulating if you are a heavy drinker, addicted to sex or love the company of other people who love to congregate and talk the same, same talk day in and day out in the ladybars of the dark side does not encourage me to think laterally or even to think, hence the need for a better way or at least some knowledge of a better way"

I don't think you have to go into the forest and be a monk to find a better existence than this............do you?

Uptheos

thanks for your post,

for some reason I have only just this minute read it and of course you are 100% right in what you say.

I think that the forest Monk thing needs a little more info.

Some years ago I was asked by Mrs n210mp ( Ths was long before we married) to go to see a Vietnamese Monk in what then was a forest setting with few buildings or shacks.

The Monk was a nonconformist Monk (My own description) in that he was totally unconventional in his approach.to the kind of MonKs that I had been used to.

He spoke some English, enough for us to communicate and he was formerly a Doctor who had given up[ his job to become a Monk. Indeed the reason that we went to see him was because of his

reputation in healing people locally.

Six weeks previously I had seen a Consultant in the UK about a problem I was having in my left arm. The surgeon said that if it did not get better in a couple of weeks of therapy I would need an operation. It did not get better and so I went to see the forest Monk of Khao suang kwan for a second opinion.

This was at my ladys request and not because I wanted a second opinion

He examined my arm for about five minutes and then said that He would try to manipulate the problem but if his massage didn't work then I would need an operation. It didn't work and I did have to have an operation back in the UK

Whilst we were talking He told me many things about my life and was 100% correct, at that time He had never met with me , my wife or her three sisters who were present, in other words He didn't know any of us from Adam

I think that I have always had an healthy cynical attitude to people who try to pull the wool over my eyes or con me into believing that they have supernatural powers but for the record this Monk not only was accurate with regard to my own personal history but also knew so much about my family back in the UK.

I will not elaborate any further on the personal nature of what my Monk friend said but believe me my thoughts on the ability of some people to actually possess supernatural powers changed on the day I met with him.

From that meeting the circumstance have changed slightly but not the people concerned.

He is still living in the forest but the small shack like building he started with have gone and a small temple is slowly growing as is his following with people from all over the world coming to speak with him.

We have become very good friends and I feel the warmth of his friendship even more when earlier this month a young Monk who had been his pupil of his for the last three years, suddenly decided to quit and leave.

My friend was upset and possibly felt that he could have done more for the young man and in my need to comfort him I said that maybe to be a good Monk there is a need to remove oneself from any fault or cause for any others actions. I said more of the same ilk and he paid me the biggest compliment that he could ever give me when he smiled and said "you have become my teacher" with no sarcasm or malicious intent.

I feel that I have drifted off a little so will end at this point, my brain at this time is full and overflowing and I feel the need for maybe a little time for some deep reflection on the many ideas and thoughts that are crowding in there.

Thanks to the many posters who have contributed to this thread.

[n210mp]

If you haven't found FAITH in your 7 decades in life why are you seeking it now?

Thanks for your post and in order for me to answer it could you define for me what actually faith is?

If you are talking about faith in human nature, I have always had it, if you are talking about the blind faith of following another human beings belief system such as Christianity, then although I have sought it, it has always managed to elude me!

As to why I am still seeking I really dont have an answer to your question, maybe it is an unease with the world as its is and where it looks like going, I honestly dont know the answer, maybe you do?

But one thing I am sure of and that I am enjoying the road or the journey.

Have you ever heard of the old saying that goes along the lines of;

" the journey is often better than the arrival"

Edited January 6, 2015 by n210mp

[shrimpythailand]

n210mp - hey great thread old buddy... so if you know a monk and he can walk you thru the deal and can clear it all with the Wat the go for it - try it out for 1-4 weeks and enjoy old bean... I have not done the Wat thing myself - been here 14 years but in the back of my mind... as i have no pension and f all to provide any support if I cannot work my job - I have thought that OK ... find a Wat and teach english or music or something if all goes south and I cannot go to work or something else happens... so it has been in the back of the old brain case for a couple of years these thoughts... but if you know the forest monk and can try it out - what the heck - try a couple of weeks ... as I said - if i cannot actually work my job for some reason and have to call it quits in the working world - my first stop will be to a local Wat and try to organize a falang monkhood - yah do all the stuff - but can teach english and music to kids and would be a way to live without pension or social security money which i have nothing coming to me so that thought has popped up... 10 years ago I went toeh Wat at suk 101 and a guy there said he would mail me a book - well a week later i got this big 700 page book on the teachings of Ajahn Mun and his students... was awesome... i wrote teh guys name and number in the book - well last week at work I showed the booked to our secretary and it seems she is a huge Ajahn Mun fan and she called the same guy and talked to him and he is going to send her a bunch of stuff now... she was tickled and the huge book I am going back now and rereading but the the stories from all of Ajahn Mun's students are great .... and they were also lots of forest monks... anyway - up to you - but you can certainly try it all out for a few weeks - especially if you have a friend monk who can get any red tape cleared up ... but yes - when I get 70+ and cannot work I am going to offer my talents to a Wat for a few years before i can't move and help some thai orphans and Wat kids learn english or piano... anyway that is my idea for future when no money is happening....

steve

Rangsit

[1FinickyOne]

I live near many forest temples and they can be pleasant places to spend time. You seem to have enough thoughtful curiousity that it is worth spending some time there and evaluating the experience and making decisions as you go along. The monks have always made me feel welcome to stay if I wanted, and not as a novice monk. Just as someone who enjoyed hanging out there…

So, why not go and spend a week and see how you feel - I don't think your age matters at all. And I do not think this has to be an all or nothing commitment. Sometimes I go hang out for a few hours - and that's what I am doing that day.

There is a story of 2 friends talking. they are 50 yrs old. One says I always wanted to be a doctor and now I have the time and money to go to med school but it will take me 10 years to become a doctor - I will be sixty yrs old!! - The friend says to him, if you don't pursue your dream and go to med school, in ten years you will still be sixty and not be a doctor..

[ggt]

If at 70...getting in touch with your spiritual self is what interests you...give it a try...do not burn all your bridges in your move to the forest...you may find that you need to make a retreat back to the real world as health issue become a problem with age...

[n210mp]

If I had the energy I would answer all the posts that I have had in response to in my OP but now the time is 9 26 pm and after my daily or should I say nightly intake of a couple of tots of 100 pipers and pepsi max I am feeling tired and knackered but very happy that my expectations on this thread have been exceeded in that I am delighted to have met so many kindred spirits

I always rise at 5 0am either to go biking or this week to work around the house and garden, neglected because of our time up in the village this last week so its a goodnight from myself and a great thank you for all the positive input from some lovely people

[Harveyg]

Follow your heart... It knows no age. Check to see if your brain is doing a mindf...

[canarysun]

I have also been thinking about " becoming a Monk " I don't mind the " No 1 closely trimmed hairdo " or being wrapped in an orange sheet ( i would feel like a " Terrys Chocolate Orange " )

But lets be serious for a moment! It's not a bad idea,it doesn't matter on your age ( i am 51 ) and love all the Buddha things.You can live in one of the Temples ( not all ) and it doesn't matter if you don't speak much Thai either.All the Monks have been most friendly on my travels here in Thailand.Of course you would have to wake up early in the morning and i think they only eat once a day ?

F.J

[connda]

For sure, go live in that place with your friend. Be sure he can watch over you as you get used to everything.

What you are thinking of doing is definitely right for your age, because now is your time to get ready for a good death. Read the "Tibetan Book of the Dead" or commentaries on it to understand what I am saying.

There is a hint in your statement that you "want to do the world some good." Beware of this goal in the normal Westernized way of thinking like that because that is not exactly the goal of the life you will be entering. Monks traditionally do not wander around "doing good" like The Lone Ranger or a Christian missionary.

Definitely go give it a try, but you are starting at the most difficult situation, the most advanced. Send me a message if you want to talk; I took Bodhisattva vows.

Thanks for the post, once again my expectations have been overwhelmed by the responses in both this thread and PMs.

I just googled "Bodhisattva" and was struck by the meaning and its words about most people living their lives in Desire and not being fully "adult"

This certainly strikes a chord with my own personal standpoint and I will look into this further.

Thanks for the offer to PM you and I certainly will once I have digested all the content of the helpful advice and comments that have been given so freely

What forest wat is willing to take you on. Just curious.

[n210mp]

For sure, go live in that place with your friend. Be sure he can watch over you as you get used to everything.

What you are thinking of doing is definitely right for your age, because now is your time to get ready for a good death. Read the "Tibetan Book of the Dead" or commentaries on it to understand what I am saying.

There is a hint in your statement that you "want to do the world some good." Beware of this goal in the normal Westernized way of thinking like that because that is not exactly the goal of the life you will be entering. Monks traditionally do not wander around "doing good" like The Lone Ranger or a Christian missionary.

Definitely go give it a try, but you are starting at the most difficult situation, the most advanced. Send me a message if you want to talk; I took Bodhisattva vows.

Thanks for the post, once again my expectations have been overwhelmed by the responses in both this thread and PMs.

I just googled "Bodhisattva" and was struck by the meaning and its words about most people living their lives in Desire and not being fully "adult"

This certainly strikes a chord with my own personal standpoint and I will look into this further.

Thanks for the offer to PM you and I certainly will once I have digested all the content of the helpful advice and comments that have been given so freely

What forest wat is willing to take you on. Just curious.

Thanks for your post maybe you can understand why I do not wish to post an answer to your question on a public forum I will PM you with the details?

You also made a comment about the Monk "taking me on"

I never for a moment thought about the situation from that point of view and thanks for another introspection for me to consider.

If I had not known the Monk and had this offer extended to me I think that I would be concerned that there could be ulterior motives but then again maybe that is my more Westernised and cynical side coming to the surface.

I have known this man for many years now and trust him completely, apart from sharing some common interests in the inspirational side of life I think that He genuinely believes that I would be a good student or novice.

[arend]

In india, life is divided into 3 stages: childhood,householder and spiritual aspirant. Many retired westerners are lost because the 3rd stage is missing. You are right on track...

The issue for the Wat/temple is taking on responsibility for you, your health etc. This can be difficult for them esp with older members. If you can show that you have means say for your medical care/emergencies, funeral costs if needed etc, they will be more than amenable.

The issue for you is are you prepared to live as an ascetic, hermit and a quiet, regimented lifestyle. Though, forest monks live a less structured lifestyle because their focus is on meditation and spiritual practice whereas city Wats are more oriented to religious functions. A forest yogi needs to have a high level of self motivation. I spent many months in forest monestery in 1980 but I was young and motivated. In other words, are you prepared to renounce the world?

Not sure? Take it a step at a time. Many ten day retreats are available. A great way to see if sustained meditation practice and the silent, ascetic life is for you. Advice: don't judge right away, takes time to adjust. Also, as an alternative, 1 or 2 or even 3 ten day retreats a year can be a powerful spiritual practice/lifestyle. Buddha advocated the "middle way" not the extremes....

[arend]

Addendum: Living a Buddhist life as a layman has it's own challenges. You don't have the outer structure to support you and must create you own. But, it works for me. One of the reasons I moved here, the Buddhist atmosphere provides a supportive environment. Not perfect, of course. But, daily life provides many opportunities to apply and deepen a Buddhist spiritual understanding and insight ...

[anon022]

"Being unable to afford any proper health care I have already decided on a course of action in the event of a terminal illness."

What then is it that you decided?

[MAJIC]

The beauty of Buddhism is that technically it is not a religion, but a philosophy... No matter how some sects insist that it is... After studying theology for a number of years, Buddhism resonates with me more than any other "religion"... With over 5200+ separate deities worshipped on the planet today, it makes one wonder just what the hell people are thinking...

As I understand it a Religion has to have a God to worship,before it becomes a Religion,which excludes Budhism! but makes more of an impact than most "Religions" without a God.

[n210mp]

As I lay in bed this morning I continued with negative thoughts that I have had over this last 48 hours about whether my thread was just the results of a bored and blase mindset looking for answers that really, only I could answer.

I have been having Doubts about my ability to leave the comfortable and materialistic lifestyle.

Doubts as to how I could ever leave my loving wife and partner and worse,doubts as to my my own sincerity plus many more doubts and worries concerned with the idea that I may in fact be just going up one of those spiritual cul de sacs which leaves me disillusioned and a little frustrated once again.

I have this built in cynicism that any answer I am looking for cannot be found from mankind, no matter how genuine and well intentioned that source would be.

In any event I have decided on a course of action.

My wife and I will be going to the village this Songkran and I will spend a week with my friend the Monk on the basis that within a week especially with his counselling I will have my answer.

My doubts which I feel are healthy doubts are also based on the many discussions I have had with people who have PMed me who also have also done the same thing and subsequently returned to normal life, not disappointed nor feeling that they had failed but happy that they had learned something about themselves and life in their continuing journey.

I would like to thank those who gave me such tremendous support and encouragement in their posts and PMs and they ( I Hope and think) may well understand just where I am mentally in this situation.

From poster "Impossible"

"Being unable to afford any proper health care I have already decided on a course of action in the event of a terminal illness."

What then is it that you decided? "

Long ago and after witnessing many painful and agonising deaths from terminal illnesses both for those who died and also much more painful for those who loved them and were having to take care of them I decided that I didn't wish to burden my demise from a terminal illness on anyone, especially those who loved me so very much.

The only problem I could foresee was, at what point should I carry out my own euthanasia? ( I dont like the word suicide)

After thinking about it for a while I decided that the cut off point was when the time came that when I couldn't walk unaided to do my normal toilet anymore but knew that at that point could still handle the practical side of arranging my own painless death. (previously arranged and made ready)

The details of which, I will not burden readers of this thread with but I would make sure that in the process the job would be well thought out and 100% efficient because I would not wish to wake up and feel that I had created more suffering for those who loved me by failing in the task.

Thoughts on whether my plans are cowardice, self murder, evil, wrong morally incorrect or just plain silly dont worry me at all anymore, my relationship with my spiritual Fathers, one where if he loves me as I love my own children then he will understand my position and still love me unconditionally as I love my children unconditionally.

I hope that I have answerde your question

Now its 6 0am and I have to go and meet my friend Rob for our bike ride around the lovely Lake Mabrachan

Edited January 7, 2015 by n210mp

[rockyysdt]

As I lay in bed this morning I continued with negative thoughts that I have had over this last 48 hours about whether my thread was just the results of a bored and blase mindset looking for answers that really, only I could answer.

I have been having Doubts about my ability to leave the comfortable and materialistic lifestyle.

Doubts as to how I could ever leave my loving wife and partner and worse,doubts as to my my own sincerity plus many more doubts and worries concerned with the idea that I may in fact be just going up one of those spiritual cul de sacs which leaves me disillusioned and a little frustrated once again.

I have this built in cynicism that any answer I am looking for cannot be found from mankind, no matter how genuine and well intentioned that source would be.

In any event I have decided on a course of action.

My wife and I will be going to the village this Songkran and I will spend a week with my friend the Monk on the basis that within a week especially with his counselling I will have my answer.

My doubts which I feel are healthy doubts are also based on the many discussions I have had with people who have PMed me who also have also done the same thing and subsequently returned to normal life, not disappointed nor feeling that they had failed but happy that they had learned something about themselves and life in their continuing journey.

Hi N.

Don't make this a big deal.

Tailor your practice around the family.

Don't abandon your wife.

Set up a roster/routine.

Perhaps practice for 5 days, then spend 2 with the wife.

Establish short term, medium term and long term goals.

Accept this opportunity as a novice and establish a routine which may grow.

See how you progress.

If things kick in and become earth shattering then take it from there.

This whole undertaking is about learning new things.

Something beyond most humans.

These days I do much observation of myself and others.

What I've learned is that the most difficult thing for a human being to do is to establish new habits, conditioning, & beliefs.

You're biggest enemy will be fighting against your habits, something much more difficult to do at a late age.

Giving up that daily Pipers tipple is but one minor example. At first OK, but in time the desire to inbibe will become very powerful.

The list is extensive.

This is why it need not be about completely destroying your current life/family otherwise there is a high probability of failure.

Your mind will be working against you.

It will bombard you with reasons to give up.

You are already fighting with your mind and you haven't even started.

Keep your goals simple.

Work out what you wish to achieve.

My short term goal would be to learn and establish a regular meditation practice as well as studying the Buddhas Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path.

My medium term goal is to work towards establish regular deep meditation at the Samadhi level.

At this age your lifes patterns have been established.

It is a deeply grooved path.

You are talking about changing all of this.

I am not wanting to discourage you, but just giving you the heads up.

My experience at retreats is that the mind will throw everything at you.

It's important to develop a mindset allowing you to simply observe such thoughts without attachment until they pass.

Quite challenging.

In terms of parting with your wife, this may only be a factor when you move on to the long term goal of going for Awakening.

As this might take years you may never need to face this point.

The bottom line is what is the purpose of being a Bikkhu (Monk)?

Firstly it allows one to devote their resource to full time practice (food, lodging provided for).

Secondly it gives you access to a teacher & provides group support.

You already have these, including your Monk friend without the need to ordain.

It's like a marriage.

Does the wedding certificate alter the quality of your relationship?

NB: Did your employment involve Vickers Viscount's, Fokker Friendship's, Lockheed Electra's, Boeing 747's or 727's?

Edited January 8, 2015 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

You already know the answer to my next question, Who was the best musician of the two brothers to listen to?

Yes it was the non academic brother who played from his heart and felt and felt the music in his very essence.

His academic brother who technically played extremely well admitted that his music when compared to his brothers lacked soul.

I use the paradox above because I feel that sometimes for a nano second I have felt something similar to that feeling that made the monk cry when he remembered his past and the moment of awakening.

As a former professional pilot I can honestly say that when going out of Manchester airport on a typical dark, cold and stormy day the first glimpse of the blue sky with the clouds beneath also gives me a similar feeling that borders on the mystical, touching places in my heart that make me say a silent prayer to whomsoever up there is responsible for its making.

I cannot get out of my mind the peace and contentment that I experience when sat quietly within the confines of the temple in the forest whilst attempting to meditate

Thanks for your kindness in answering my posts

Another of my interests are the things which drive individuals to practice (path).

To me they are gifts which set us on our way.

We all have drivers unique to ourselves.

If successful, we eventually gain insight, perhaps experiencing something quite different to what first drew us in.

Edited January 8, 2015 by rockyysdt

[n210mp]

Rockysdt

Phew!

You have encapsulated most if not all of my feelings in two short posts and yes, you have listed in great detail all of the doubts and reasons that I felt instinctively but could never have put into words so clearly as you have done, because my mind was, as you say working against itself.

This is why I decided to do a week with my venerable friend and see if I can have that "moment of clarity" that will either see me to the next level or will consign me to acceptance of who I am and if the latter is the case then I will do my best to be the best at what I do with whoever I am or turn out to be.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write, it is greatly appreciated.

As far as the flying goes, The largest aircraft I ever flew was a Boeing 737 but only as first officer and that was only because at the time there was a big shortage of pilots and coincidentally I had just done a "type rating" on the 737 the airlines would take anybody on legs at that time as long as they had a current licence

My presence or use in the 737 cockpit was as far as the Captain was concerned just a legal requirement and I was of little use having only simulator time on the aircraft but as the Captain said I was at least good company.

I could have carried on with that until the insurance companies changed their company law and said that the co pilot or first officer had to have a minimum of 1500 hours on type thus ending my stint in the USA as a copilot

I had 67 aircraft types including variants on my ATPL licences both American and English airplane and rotor including most of the small exec jets, Citation, lear and jetranger helicopters.

I also had PPls (private licences) for balloons and seaplanes

Most of my flying was either air taxi or teaching within my own aviation businesses, flying was a large part of my life but secondary to a lifetime as a businessman involved in real estate, hotels which I successfully combined until the UK economy collapsed in 1990

Edited January 8, 2015 by n210mp

[rockyysdt]

This is why I decided to do a week with my venerable friend and see if I can have that "moment of clarity" that will either see me to the next level or will consign me to acceptance of who I am and if the latter is the case then I will do my best to be the best at what I do with whoever I am or turn out to be.

As far as the flying goes, The largest aircraft I ever flew was a Boeing 737.

One week places your destiny under enormous pressure.

My experience tells me that one does not meditate.

Rather concentrate on perfecting posture, breathing and mindset and meditation will come of its own accord.

Trying, is the opposite of what meditation is.

Chasing a moment of clarity is not the way.

Present yourself with innocent openness and meditation comes.

You have a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Don't base it on feelings governed by timelines.

That which is deathless is beyond time, thought & feeling.

Work towards experiencing this with your Monk friend as your guide.

You can see him regularly for practice reviews.

You can meditate with him.

You can also spend some of this time meditating at home.

You will be learning to play an instrument.

One which is new to you.

This will take time.

All you need is the hunger to learn and practice.

Everyone is capable.

We are all from the same source.

This is the only thing that can truly answer your questions.

Flying a Boeing 737 would be awesome.

Edited January 8, 2015 by rockyysdt

[n210mp]

"One week places your destiny under enormous pressure."

If the general idea is to go with the flow and not be bound by either time constraints or any other interfering thought processes, then I will accede to whatever Karma decides for me

I have always thought thet being lucky is always better than being a good manager and so I consign my fate to whatever it is that decides these things

My experience tells me that one does not meditate.

Rather concentrate on perfecting posture, breathing and mindset and meditation will come of its own accord.

Trying, is the opposite of what meditation is.

Chasing a moment of clarity is not the way.

Present yourself with innocent openness and meditation comes.

Because of the extraordinary sensory mental powers of my friend anything other that innocent openness would be seen and challenged immediately

You have a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Don't base it on feelings governed by timelines.

That which is deathless is beyond time, thought & feeling.

Yes I understand what you are saying and that is why I will meditate as you describe and try to get the posture, breathing right and maybe the meditation will follow, coincidentally the Monks former student and I were discussing meditation and he said exactly the same thing and also that true meditation is not always successful every time one meditates

Work towards experiencing this with your Monk friend as your guide.

You can see him regularly for practice reviews.

You can meditate with him.

You can also spend some of this time meditating at home.

You will be learning to play an instrument.

One which is new to you.

This will take time.

All you need is the hunger to learn and practice.

Everyone is capable.

We are all from the same source.

This is the only thing that can truly answer your questions.

I will endevour to do all the things you advise but its not really questions I need answering, its sort of more fulfillment and that sense of calmness and reverence for life that I witness in so many learned people

Flying a Boeing 737 would be awesome.

Well its great but you need to be more of a systems manager than a pilot, now if you want awesome lets talk about the old Pitts special !

Edited January 8, 2015 by n210mp

[n210mp]

I have had an "Insight"or as my friend would say a "moment of clarity"

Since I posted the OP I have been disappointed with myself that I have not taken up with some of the posters on this thread who could possibly have given me the advice of their own experiences, in other words I have not asked then for any further advice and they may feel a little disappointed with me.

I herewith apologise and accept that maybe I have lost an opportunity to connect with some very wise, wonderful and experienced people .

I hope that when these folks read my reason for not communicating with them they will understand in their wisdom just where it is I am coming from.

Basically I think that I am a dreamer.

I think that I have been gifted with an enquiring mind that does not ever accept the status quo and for no other reason than a thought that there must be more to life than just the day to day rigmarole of everyday living.

I have tried to be straight with myself and just cannot accept the loss of my wonderful days of existence with the love of my life.

Even though in my heart of heart I do have a "vocation" to be something more than I am, I have not got the bottle or guts to follow this line through or even to have time with my venerable friend the Monk.

So for those who gave positive and helpful replies I am very grateful, for those who implied help in a mentoring way I feel that I have disappointed you and for that I am also very sorry that I couldn't get past the first hurdle.

[rockyysdt]

I have had an "Insight"or as my friend would say a "moment of clarity"

Since I posted the OP I have been disappointed with myself that I have not taken up with some of the posters on this thread who could possibly have given me the advice of their own experiences, in other words I have not asked then for any further advice and they may feel a little disappointed with me.

I herewith apologise and accept that maybe I have lost an opportunity to connect with some very wise, wonderful and experienced people .

I hope that when these folks read my reason for not communicating with them they will understand in their wisdom just where it is I am coming from.

Basically I think that I am a dreamer.

I think that I have been gifted with an enquiring mind that does not ever accept the status quo and for no other reason than a thought that there must be more to life than just the day to day rigmarole of everyday living.

I have tried to be straight with myself and just cannot accept the loss of my wonderful days of existence with the love of my life.

Even though in my heart of heart I do have a "vocation" to be something more than I am, I have not got the bottle or guts to follow this line through or even to have time with my venerable friend the Monk.

So for those who gave positive and helpful replies I am very grateful, for those who implied help in a mentoring way I feel that I have disappointed you and for that I am also very sorry that I couldn't get past the first hurdle.

Don't let it worry you N.

You've shown a reality which we all face.

To break from ones conditioning is the most difficult thing a human accomplish.

I suggest this is one of the reasons why Awakening is so difficult and rare.

We all face the same invisible prison bars you have described.

Those who are lucky enough to have seeds of change within their conditioning may have a chance.

Importantly being mindful/aware of our imprisonment is the beginning.

I make it a common feature of my mindfulness practice.

I constantly observe my conditioning and that of others.

Enjoy your life.

[n210mp]

I have had an "Insight"or as my friend would say a "moment of clarity"

Since I posted the OP I have been disappointed with myself that I have not taken up with some of the posters on this thread who could possibly have given me the advice of their own experiences, in other words I have not asked then for any further advice and they may feel a little disappointed with me.

I herewith apologise and accept that maybe I have lost an opportunity to connect with some very wise, wonderful and experienced people .

I hope that when these folks read my reason for not communicating with them they will understand in their wisdom just where it is I am coming from.

Basically I think that I am a dreamer.

I think that I have been gifted with an enquiring mind that does not ever accept the status quo and for no other reason than a thought that there must be more to life than just the day to day rigmarole of everyday living.

I have tried to be straight with myself and just cannot accept the loss of my wonderful days of existence with the love of my life.

Even though in my heart of heart I do have a "vocation" to be something more than I am, I have not got the bottle or guts to follow this line through or even to have time with my venerable friend the Monk.

So for those who gave positive and helpful replies I am very grateful, for those who implied help in a mentoring way I feel that I have disappointed you and for that I am also very sorry that I couldn't get past the first hurdle.

Don't let it worry you N.

You've shown a reality which we all face.

To break from ones conditioning is the most difficult thing a human accomplish.

I suggest this is one of the reasons why Awakening is so difficult and rare.

We all face the same invisible prison bars you have described.

Those who are lucky enough to have seeds of change within their conditioning may have a chance.

Importantly being mindful/aware of our imprisonment is the beginning.

I make it a common feature of my mindfulness practice.

I constantly observe my conditioning and that of others.

Enjoy your life.

Thanks for the words of encouragement I am pleased that you replied.

Up in the forest over the new year period I had a talk with my friend and teacher.

I explained all that I felt, that I was too close to the "materialistic" and also that I felt that my wife was more than a wife and I couldnt either hack the thought of not being with her but also the thoughts that I Needed to look after her as a proper man would do.

I know that I have the self discipline needed for isolation and that some will think that I am using my wife as an excuse for not doing what I wish to do and that is to explore the next chapter of life or in other words prepare for that next chapter.

The Monk accepted my words without emotion and said that when the time was right I would know and He would know and then I would be in a better place to learn the way.

He agreed that the time was not right just now.

It was some time later when I got back home that I had an illuminating thought that freed my overburdened consciousness of much of the heavy mental weight that I had been carrying over this last few months, even years.

I was trying to meditate on why I was overburdened with my life and why I sought the quiet of the Forest and the teachings of this venerable Monk.

My conclusions simplified , where simply I was wanting to escape the realities and complexities of the world for something I knew existed but at this time in my life simply not achievable.

Not being at all knowledgeable about Buddhism and only using the little "nouse" that I was born with I think that maybe after this life and in another reincarnation my answers may be found.

[rockyysdt]

Not being at all knowledgeable about Buddhism and only using the little "nouse" that I was born with I think that maybe after this life and in another reincarnation my answers may be found.

See how crafty the "Mind' is.

It's given you a pass.

Another reason why Awakening is so difficult.

Another option is to continue down the path of Awakening, but combine it with your domestic life.

There is much to accomplish well before (years) the need for full time practice.

Whilst doing the early practice you can continue to be a provider and to take part in some materialistic pursuits.

Early practice can include, learning Dharma, Meditation & Mindfulness.

It can also include interaction with the Monk for pointers and fine tuning.

I was speaking to a friend the other day who plays football.

He is currently in pre training for training.

Basically he visits the gym, jogs and eats sensibly in order to prepare his body for the official club training coming up in about two months.

As my friend has much work to do in order to become proficient enough to partake in official training, you are also able to do much in terms of study & practice whilst investing only a fraction of a day.

Not only is this a way of improving your daily life, you will be much better placed later on.

If you wait for the ideal time this will never come.

Edited January 17, 2015 by rockyysdt

[n210mp]

Not being at all knowledgeable about Buddhism and only using the little "nouse" that I was born with I think that maybe after this life and in another reincarnation my answers may be found.

See how crafty the "Mind' is.

It's given you a pass.

Another reason why Awakening is so difficult.

Another option is to continue down the path of Awakening, but combine it with your domestic life.

There is much to accomplish well before (years) the need for full time practice.

Whilst doing the early practice you can continue to be a provider and to take part in some materialistic pursuits.

Early practice can include, learning Dharma, Meditation & Mindfulness.

It can also include interaction with the Monk for pointers and fine tuning.

I was speaking to a friend the other day who plays football.

He is currently in pre training for training.

Basically he visits the gym, jogs and eats sensibly in order to prepare his body for the official club training coming up in about two months.

As my friend has much work to do in order to become proficient enough to partake in official training, you are also able to do much in terms of study & practice whilst investing only a fraction of a day.

Not only is this a way of improving your daily life, you will be much better placed later on.

If you wait for the ideal time this will never come.

Self lies are probably the worst kind.

Guilty as charged and in mitigation for my cowardice I did consider that I was merely making excuses for my lack of vision and intent!

I will and do intend to continue at a less intense level my interest in both Buddhism and or whatever comes next after the end of my mortal existence on this planet.

In respect of the Church describing faith as a gift, I always asked what if you hadn't received that gift then how could you "believe" and there is a parallel within Buddhism to the Christians Faith the parallel for me would be in the way of a vocation or a calling.

Whether you are Christian with the gift of Faith or a Buddhist with a vocation, what I endevour to understand is where did the faith or the calling / vocation come from in the first place.

Personally I "feel" the presence of a divine or supernatural body . I would love to button hole this feeling into one of the camps or other.

It seems that the old cliche that there are many ways to the top of the mountain and many ways to find God are a thought that I continue to think about.

​Whilst I joke about my inability to further my interest in all manner of spiritual matters I also think that sooner of later I will feel a divine intervention and then my path will be clear.

Is this living in faith?

The I reread this post and remember your final sentence from your last post;

"If you wait for the ideal time this will never come."

and I think , I fell at the first hurdle!

Edited January 17, 2015 by n210mp

[rockyysdt]

Self lies are probably the worst kind.

Guilty as charged and in mitigation for my cowardice I did consider that I was merely making excuses for my lack of vision and intent!

I will and do intend to continue at a less intense level my interest in both Buddhism and or whatever comes next after the end of my mortal existence on this planet.

In respect of the Church describing faith as a gift, I always asked what if you hadn't received that gift then how could you "believe" and there is a parallel within Buddhism to the Christians Faith the parallel for me would be in the way of a vocation or a calling.

Whether you are Christian with the gift of Faith or a Buddhist with a vocation, what I endevour to understand is where did the faith or the calling / vocation come from in the first place.

Personally I "feel" the presence of a divine or supernatural body . I would love to button hole this feeling into one of the camps or other.

It seems that the old cliche that there are many ways to the top of the mountain and many ways to find God are a thought that I continue to think about.

​Whilst I joke about my inability to further my interest in all manner of spiritual matters I also think that sooner of later I will feel a divine intervention and then my path will be clear.

Is this living in faith?

Don't take my previous post as an attack on yourself, nor as a judgement.

Merely take it as bare awareness of what has unfolded.

I come back to the almost impossible task each of us faces.

That is our attempts to alter our habits.

Don't feel alone N.

We are all in the same boat.

Regarding your faith and the feeling of the divine presence, don't let these feelings get in your way.

By doing so you are passing responsibility for your progress to another.

Gain real personal experience of what actually is through daily practice, rather than attaching yourself to belief.

What lies ahead is awareness/experience beyond thought & feeling.

Something beyond description.

Something you can only experience.

Forget any thoughts of what this maybe.

Simply practice and with diligent application all will become revealed.

You may or may not achieve the ultimate goal, but practice itself has the potential of profound experience.

We can only live in the present.

Deep awareness in the present, free from thought, feeling and time, is reward in itself.

The past is history and the future may or may not be.

This reminds me of an old song I used to listen to by Yes.

Called Time & Word.

The lyrics include: There's a time and the time is now and it's right for me, It's right for me, and the time is now.

Edited January 17, 2015 by rockyysdt

[n210mp]

Thanks Rocky and to give a little background to my position;

I suffer from cyclic depression.

This condition has been with me for as long as I can remember.

I call it my depression because it is mine, it is part of me, I am unable to either stop it or end the cycles.

I have known it as a regular companion for most of my life and know its cycles like, when its coming, when its going and then just after its gone the high highs to be followed sometimes days, weeks or months later with the low lows.!

I never suffered from it to the degree that it has never influenced either my business career or my relationships.

I also suffer from having "good intentions and an essence of good morality" that I most of the time do not live up to.

This condition has been with me for as long as I can remember.

I live with one foot in the grave. (Nothing to do with the cyclic depression)

An insight that I was made aware of after witnessing much tragedy and death from an early age in my life

This condition has been with me since I stopped being an "hoppin youth" and started being ( I think) a sentient being.

For me the knowledge of my ultimate definite demise is the only way that I can make any sense or logic of just where it is that I am now in this mortal coil and also manage the mind both in awareness, sensitivity and mood.

The above are just some of the many and complex things that go through my mind most days and it is with all that baggage I have looked for another way, hence my interest in Philosophy, Theology Religion and Buddhism.

I have failed miserably in all of these areas, seeming to find cul de sacs rather than the road to enlightenment or indeed any sense of fulfillment.

A thread that I have running in the general forum is about Real friends.

The reason for my thread was to find out if others had the same thoughts as I do about the need for friends at all.

Yes the last sentence was not a typo, I am beginning to believe that I am actually better off (mentally) without any "friends"

Now this is not to say I dont love or honour the friends that I have. I do of course but the problem is that I dont "vibrate" at any level with anyone.

Now that of course can be a character fault in me but I dont think it is. I think that my very being knows of somethng more and better but I just cannot find the way to it!

It seems that I am permanently looking for a deeper and more meaningful relationship than "friends"albeit they are real and close friends can offer anymore.

I have considered that I may just be another grumpy old fart but it is more than that and this is why the sojourn in my friend's temple in the forest may be just the answer to maybe a need for isolation , contemplation and meditation.

After discussing this with my Mrs who is 100% behind any decision that I make, I have decided to have a few day with my Monk friend at Songkran when we go to see Mama and papa and the family and just ponder for a while all the pros and cons available to me.

[rockyysdt]

Thanks Rocky and to give a little background to my position;

I suffer from cyclic depression.

This condition has been with me for as long as I can remember.

I call it my depression because it is mine, it is part of me, I am unable to either stop it or end the cycles.

I have known it as a regular companion for most of my life and know its cycles like, when its coming, when its going and then just after its gone the high highs to be followed sometimes days, weeks or months later with the low lows.!

I never suffered from it to the degree that it has never influenced either my business career or my relationships.

I also suffer from having "good intentions and an essence of good morality" that I most of the time do not live up to.

This condition has been with me for as long as I can remember.

I live with one foot in the grave. (Nothing to do with the cyclic depression)

An insight that I was made aware of after witnessing much tragedy and death from an early age in my life

This condition has been with me since I stopped being an "hoppin youth" and started being ( I think) a sentient being.

For me the knowledge of my ultimate definite demise is the only way that I can make any sense or logic of just where it is that I am now in this mortal coil and also manage the mind both in awareness, sensitivity and mood.

The above are just some of the many and complex things that go through my mind most days and it is with all that baggage I have looked for another way, hence my interest in Philosophy, Theology Religion and Buddhism.

I have failed miserably in all of these areas, seeming to find cul de sacs rather than the road to enlightenment or indeed any sense of fulfillment.

A thread that I have running in the general forum is about Real friends.

The reason for my thread was to find out if others had the same thoughts as I do about the need for friends at all.

Yes the last sentence was not a typo, I am beginning to believe that I am actually better off (mentally) without any "friends"

Now this is not to say I dont love or honour the friends that I have. I do of course but the problem is that I dont "vibrate" at any level with anyone.

Now that of course can be a character fault in me but I dont think it is. I think that my very being knows of somethng more and better but I just cannot find the way to it!

It seems that I am permanently looking for a deeper and more meaningful relationship than "friends"albeit they are real and close friends can offer anymore.

I have considered that I may just be another grumpy old fart but it is more than that and this is why the sojourn in my friend's temple in the forest may be just the answer to maybe a need for isolation , contemplation and meditation.

After discussing this with my Mrs who is 100% behind any decision that I make, I have decided to have a few day with my Monk friend at Songkran when we go to see Mama and papa and the family and just ponder for a while all the pros and cons available to me.

In terms of clinical depression I am out of my depth.

I don't know its cause and how it would affect your ability to practice.

Perhaps others can assist.

Sorry to hear you've witnessed such traumatic events.

Things very scarring to ones mind.

I find we all have a mixed bag of conditioning and suffering, unique to each of us.

If one had no physical/chemical impediment to practice, one thing that diligent meditation/samahdi can do is to allow you to experience a state beyond thought & feeling.

Whilst in such states you become cleansed of any trauma which colors your life.

At the end of the day they are just thoughts.

Unfortunately thoughts can have a greater affect on ones feelings than the original events.

Thoughts feed on a chain other thoughts, leading to painful feelings and suffering.

I know personally that I'll worry about situations until I'm quite stressed only to find things didn't turn out that way at all.

Attachment to negative thoughts can lead to a second class life.

If you are able to practice, then this is how you can escape your mind/feelings.

This is not to say you are running away from them, more that you are learning that that's all that they are, just memories and feelings.

There is a better way to live.

A state of being in the present, free from mind & feeling.

A state quite profound.

Again, I don't know if you have physical/chemical reasons for not being able to successfully practice.

If your depression & trauma are limited to suffering as a consequence of mental thought and feelings (habitual negative thinking), then practice will reveal a new way to live.

Practice can enable you to alter habits if you want it to.

Regarding friendship it's up to you.

A friendship may involve common interests, but usually has something in it for each.

For example if you want to learn and practice what the Buddha taught, then your Monk friend would be a good person to have friendship with.

Friendship is not free.

There usually is something in it for each otherwise it eventually ends.

There is something in it for both you and your Monk friend.

For you, he has his experience to offer in terms of growing in your life.

For him he has the opportunity to offer compassion for his fellow man.

Unequal friendships may not endure.

One may be quite needy of the others resource, time, money, whilst not be concerned for the others needs.

Or one may always want to do things which pleases themselves whilst not being concerned about their friends needs or likes.

Thers's another song that comes to mind "Always your way".

Edited January 18, 2015 by rockyysdt