AirAsia flight QZ8501 was not cleared to fly route, says Indonesia

[Lite Beer]

AirAsia flight QZ8501 was not cleared to fly route, says Indonesia

The AirAsia plane that crashed off Indonesia was flying on an unauthorised schedule, the country’s transport ministry has said, adding that it has now frozen the airline’s permission to fly the route.

After two large parts of the plane were found on the sea bed late on Friday by the international search team, the acting director general of air transport, Djoko Murdjatmodjo, said the plane’s flight time had not been cleared by officials, and the ministry would investigate all AirAsia schedules from Monday.

Read More: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/03/airasia-flight-qz8501-airline-was-not-allowed-to-fly-route-says-indonesia

--The Guardian 2015-01-03

[neverdie]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

[KhaoNiaw]

How could they fly without permission?

[WhamBam]

This could have very serious implications for Air Asia.

[KhaoNiaw]

I would have thought it has more serious implications for all kinds of officialdom if AirAsia were just able to send up an extra flight without anyone spotting it. I can't believe it's that easy for an airline to slip an extra flight in just because they feel like it.

Edited January 3, 2015 by KhaoNiaw

[WilliamCave]

Would be good to hear from a professional in this field to answer how it can fly with out prior flight plan or what ever they need erc ,

Thanks

[Sirpia]

Nothing surprises me about South-East Asia any more.

No doubt there'll be a few sh1ht-eating smiles to go with some silence, then some sincere sounding promises, then every one continues on as normal.

[Sirpia]

How could they fly without permission?

5 Dollar flyee-flyee.

[Sirpia]

How could they fly without permission?

To be serious, either one of two things are likely.

1) money changed hands to allow it. Quite likely regularly, if it works out cheaper for the company.

2) pure incompetence.

It would be akin to Michele Obama visiting Bangkok and being knocked down by two motosai taxis racing each other on the footpath outside a police station.

People would ask, how the <deleted> did that happen?

The answer, simply, is South-East Asia.

Don't think about it too much.

[ldnguy]

But the airport or air traffic controllers still let them fly. Seems like very lax procedures. Probably happens more than we know.

[ldnguy]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

I don't think Air Asia is dodgy. Apart from this accident it has quite a good safety record. In fact, a better safety record than some non-budget airlines. Just look up the stats.

[Maestro]

It was already strange that Air Asia changed the flight's departure time to two hours earlier than the original time. I haven't seen any explanation given for that.

[F430murci]

But the airport or air traffic controllers still let them fly. Seems like very lax procedures. Probably happens more than we know.

I doubt ATC has copies of license agreements with each airline.

A friend of mine who is a very business savy, rich lawyer recently said (in response to the 2 year old shooting mother incident) that there are no accidents. Just a series of bad decisions leading to a bad outcome. Intuitively, I am very resistant to that premise, but there may be some validity to that observation.

[F430murci]

It was already strange that Air Asia changed the flight's departure time to two hours earlier than the original time. I haven't seen any explanation given for that.

Moving up two hours is very strange. Never heard of such a thing in US and fly a lot.

[JockPieandBeans]

[Maestro]

I don't think Air Asia is dodgy...

An employee probably just forgot to fill out and submit a form to a government agency, perhaps didn't even know that it was needed.

[Basil B]

Has this got anything to do with the crash???

Seems to me Indonesia which has a very poor air safety record is creating a smoke screen to hide behind.

I see the final conclusion (report) putting fault at many factors including The Pilot, the Co Pilot, Air Asia, Indonesia, Airbus, ATC, the weather and so on.

Nothing so far would stop me booking a flight with Air Asia again, I have flown with them before and found them to be a decent airline for the price and could see no cutting of corners on safety.

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

So please do not call me a Dummy, as the only reason I am not booking a flight right now (BKK-URT) for end of April is because I do not know if this airline will survive that long due to the diarrhoeic dribble that is being put about by others.

[Jip99]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

Good point - best you fly Air France.....

[F430murci]

Has this got anything to do with the crash???

Seems to me Indonesia which has a very poor air safety record is creating a smoke screen to hide behind.

I see the final conclusion (report) putting fault at many factors including The Pilot, the Co Pilot, Air Asia, Indonesia, Airbus, ATC, the weather and so on.

Nothing so far would stop me booking a flight with Air Asia again, I have flown with them before and found them to be a decent airline for the price and could see no cutting of corners on safety.

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

So please do not call me a Dummy, as the only reason I am not booking a flight right now (BKK-URT) for end of April is because I do not know if this airline will survive that long due to the diarrhoeic dribble that is being put about by others.

I dunno, but maybe best to place your life in the hands of those that follow or respect the rules. Book away. I would fly Air Asia if had to. Heck, I have flown on some Russian airlines and they are pitiful regarding safety. That does not mean SE Asia airlines and ATC cut a lot of corners that increases the risk, but the the risk is still very low.

[muffy]

If ATC cleared them , then they had permission , trying to pass the buck ?

[F430murci]

If ATC cleared them , then they had permission , trying to pass the buck ?

Are you saying ATC has copies of all license agreements for every airline departing and landing in a given location. You do realize that ATC has a lot if stress placed on them just trying to keep planes from running into each other and perhaps has no time to try and figure out if an airline is ignoring their license agreement with a given country.

[NeverSure]

How could they fly without permission?

The departure airport doesn't know if they have permission.

Please read my post here.

[Tep]

If ATC cleared them , then they had permission , trying to pass the buck ?

Are you saying ATC has copies of all license agreements for every airline departing and landing in a given location. You do realize that ATC has a lot if stress placed on them just trying to keep planes from running into each other and perhaps has no time to try and figure out if an airline is ignoring their license agreement with a given country.

In this case, I think clearance from the Transport Ministry is not the same as clearance from Air Traffic Control. In many countries, including Thailand and Indonesia Airports, Air Navigation and Aviation Regulation are under the control of different agencies. Airports in Indonesia are owned by the government but operated by a state owned corporate entity PT Ankasa Pura. Air Navigation and Aviation Regulation are under different departments within the Ministry of Transport. In Thailand airports are operated either by AOT Plc or the Department of Civil Aviation (also the regulator) and air navigation is done by a state enterprise called the Aeronautical Radio of Thailand (ART).

The Indonesian bureaucracy is quite vast, complex and quite byzantine. I would like to see more information to be able to establish the correlation between the approval of a route by the relevant department of the Ministry of Transport and the cause of the crash of the Air Asia flight. There may be certification and safety procedures that are required for approval that may turn out to be relevant in this case. Or it might be a case of government officials covering their backsides after allowing dodgy scheduling practices which may have no bearing on the causes of this tragedy.

Regulation in this part of the world is often not consistent with world standards and can also be heavily influenced at the policy and political level. Often we have to trust in operators maintaining high industry standards of safety and service quality because it is in their own commercial interests to do so.

[Basil B]

Has this got anything to do with the crash???

Seems to me Indonesia which has a very poor air safety record is creating a smoke screen to hide behind.

I see the final conclusion (report) putting fault at many factors including The Pilot, the Co Pilot, Air Asia, Indonesia, Airbus, ATC, the weather and so on.

Nothing so far would stop me booking a flight with Air Asia again, I have flown with them before and found them to be a decent airline for the price and could see no cutting of corners on safety.

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

So please do not call me a Dummy, as the only reason I am not booking a flight right now (BKK-URT) for end of April is because I do not know if this airline will survive that long due to the diarrhoeic dribble that is being put about by others.

I dunno, but maybe best to place your life in the hands of those that follow or respect the rules. Book away. I would fly Air Asia if had to. Heck, I have flown on some Russian airlines and they are pitiful regarding safety. That does not mean SE Asia airlines and ATC cut a lot of corners that increases the risk, but the the risk is still very low.

Do not know if it was an oversight or they could not bother to get permission, or they were refused permission, but still see no possible connection with this accident, not unless they were overflying military firing range used on Sundays...

What is clear the Airport (a state owned enterprise) allowed them to load cargo and passengers last Sunday, if the flight had been unlawful surely the Airport would have stopped passengers from boarding?

[neverdie]

Has this got anything to do with the crash???

Seems to me Indonesia which has a very poor air safety record is creating a smoke screen to hide behind.

I see the final conclusion (report) putting fault at many factors including The Pilot, the Co Pilot, Air Asia, Indonesia, Airbus, ATC, the weather and so on.

Nothing so far would stop me booking a flight with Air Asia again, I have flown with them before and found them to be a decent airline for the price and could see no cutting of corners on safety.

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

So please do not call me a Dummy, as the only reason I am not booking a flight right now (BKK-URT) for end of April is because I do not know if this airline will survive that long due to the diarrhoeic dribble that is being put about by others.

Half the reason the aviation industry is in crisis is because people that don't understand the implications of lining up to ride with these <snip> and other ones which are even worse.

An overhaul of the aviation industry & it's regulators is long long overdue. I suspect you like others have little understanding of what's really happening.

[Lite Beer]

FLIGHT QZ8501 CRASH
Probe into AirAsia schedules

Jakarta January 4

Indonesia says it 'flew beyond terms' of permit; licence may be at risk, official says; big parts of jet found on sea floor

Indonesia's transport ministry will investigate all Indonesia AirAsia flight schedules from tomorrow as part of a government probe into the passenger jet that crashed, according to a senior official.

"We are going to investigate all AirAsia flight schedules," Djoko Muratmodjo, acting general director for air navigation in the transport ministry said yesterday. "Hopefully, we can start next Monday. We won't focus on licences, just schedules."

"It is possible AirAsia's licence in Indonesia might be revoked," he said, stressing that was only one possibility.

Ships searching for the wreck of an AirAsia passenger jet that crashed with 162 people on board have pinpointed two "big objects" on the sea floor, the head of Indonesia's search and rescue agency said yesterday.

A multinational task force of ships, planes and helicopters have been scouring the northern Java Sea and coastline off southern Borneo to recover the bodies of victims and locate the wreck of Flight QZ8501 and its black box flight recorders.

The transport ministry on Friday temporarily suspended Indonesia AirAsia's Surabaya-Singapore flights because it had apparently operated the service beyond the scope of its licence, which permitted flights on four days of the week but not Sundays, when the crash occurred.

"We will also investigate the party that gave permission to AirAsia to fly on that day," Muratmodjo added.

Indonesia AirAsia CEO Sunu Widyatmoko said company would cooperate with the investigation into the Surabaya-Singapore route, but declined to answer further questions.

Ships searching for the passenger jet's wreck have pinpointed two "big objects" on the sea floor, the head of Indonesia's search and rescue agency said yesterday.

The breakthrough came as authorities in Jakarta said that ndonesia AirAsia was violating the terms of its licence for the urabaya to Singapore route by flying on a Sunday, the day the irbus A320-200 plunged into the Java Sea, and said they would investigate the budget carrier's other schedules.

Search and rescue agency chief Fransiskus Bambang Soelistyo said underwater remote operating vehicles (ROV) were being used to try to capture images to confirm the underwater objects were parts of the lost plane.

"We have detected two objects underwater [at] 30 metres depth," said Soelistyo. "At this moment, we are operating the ROVto take pictures of the objects."

No survivors have been found from the crash, which happened about 40 minutes after the plane took off from Indonesia's second-largest city in an area known for intense tropical thunderstorms during the current monsoon season.

Air-traffic controllers lost contact with Flight QZ8501 minutes after the pilot requested to fly higher to try and avoid a storm cell.

Indonesian authorities on Friday questioned whether the pilot had followed correct weather report procedures, and later suspended Indonesia AirAsia's Surabaya to Singapore flights for apparently infringing the terms of its licence for the route.

Much of the effort has focused on finding victims of the crash. Officials said 21 bodies were pulled from the sea on Friday, including two still strapped in their seats, bringing the total number of victims recovered to 30.

Small pieces of the aircraft and other debris have also been found, but there has been no sign of the crucial voice and flight data recorders - the so-called black boxes that investigators hope will unravel the sequence of events in the cockpit during the doomed jet's final minutes.

Search and rescue agency chief Soelistyo told a news conference in Jakarta that two large objects were found just before midnight on Friday.

The first object measured 9.4 metres by 4.8 metres by 0.4 metres, while the second is 7.2 metres by 0.5 metres, he said.

Soelistyo said operating ROVs was problematic due to the large waves in the area that have hampered operations for much of the week, but that divers were preparing to search for the objects.

The cause of the crash, the first suffered by the AirAsia group since the budget operator began flying in 2002, is unexplained.

The plane was flying at 32,000 feet and the pilot had asked to climb to 38,000 feet just before contact was lost. When air traffic controllers granted permission to fly at 34,000 feet a few minutes later there was no response.

A source close to the investigation said radar data appeared to show the aircraft made an "unbelievably" steep climb before it crashed, possibly pushing it beyond the A320's limits.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/aec/Probe-into-AirAsia-schedules-30251146.html

-- The Nation 2015-01-04

[neverdie]

They should be looking at a few other carriers as well.....but I won't hold my breath.

[HeijoshinCool]

If ATC cleared them , then they had permission , trying to pass the buck ?

Are you saying ATC has copies of all license agreements for every airline departing and landing in a given location. You do realize that ATC has a lot if stress placed on them just trying to keep planes from running into each other and perhaps has no time to try and figure out if an airline is ignoring their license agreement with a given country.

.

ATC has no involvement in where airlines are licensed to fly. They are asked for clearances, and give them.

The bigger questions would be:

how did the airline expect to get away with it (they would know they would be caught out);

why did the flight leave an unprecedented two hours early;

why did ATC wait almost an hour after losing contact with the aircraft, before reporting it lost;

and why did Tony Fernandez sell almost a million shares of Air Asia's Tune Insurance (the insurance travelers buy when booking the flight) two days before the incident?

[Bkungbank]

Budget airline should follow standart procedure but letting techician to check the plane at least 20-30 min before loading passengers again.

Many mistake after stop for 10 min start reloading bags and passangers to make more money without consider value of human life in budget airliners.

[BKKBrit]

One thing for sure, is this is going to be very costly for Indonesia Air Asia and the parent company....the company/ies insuring the A320 and the risk policies covering the passengers will use this fact to void the policy.