Why would people choose to be gay?

[isanbirder]

http://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2015/jan/08/homosexuality-gay-choice-psychology

A psychologist explains why the 'lifestyle choice' argument is absurd.

[Caitrin]

It is absurd. Same with gender identity. I have met plenty of people who have said, "I wish I could choose not to be," LGBT, but I have never heard someone say, "I would want to choose this" or even "I chose this." I've met trans people who have said, "I chose to act on this identity in this manner or that manner" but that's different than saying the identify was chosen itself.

We need to stop looking for a why and just accept that this is part of the variations in human existence. But that's usually not something religious folks like to hear. It removes the power from their religious views.

[siampolee]

Interesting topic which I am sure will provoke some very interesting responses, so below is my contribution to the thread.

I worked for some years with a person who had had a gender change from male to female, O.K each unto their own is my view.

However after all the surgery and no doubt counselling involved etc that person is living with another person who was born female and still is female, they have in fact lived together for certainly some 6-7 years to my and others certain knowledge, so how does one explain that twist? of events?

I recall someone saying that'' the fellow must been as bent as hell and then he turned lesbian.'' Now is that or was that a joke or is it possibly a human trait or emotion?

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I wish I had been gay, would have saved me a packet, no divorce, I get to keep what I bought in my life.

If I could go back in time and choose 'gay', I would, without a seconds hesitation.

I might have been in the closet though.

Edited January 9, 2015 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Jingthing]

The question of choosing to be gay or not should be an academic question, not a political tool to be used by either pro gay rights or anti-gay advocates. Speaking as a supporter of gay civil rights, I'm uncomfortable with defending that position with the argument ... we had no choice, so don't hate us, we couldn't help it. That position presents being gay as an undesirable malady, even like a disease. In other words, politically speaking, it should be OK to choose to be gay even if you don't actually choose it.

[isanbirder]

No, I don't agree, JT.

This is something homophobes often say, so it's good to have an argument against it so well presented.

There is nothing wrong with being born one of a minority group. As a Jew, you know this perfectly well. I noticed on TV today that Obama is left-handed; that's another minority. We're not being put in an uncomfortable position; we're simply being attacked on false grounds, and we should counter them.

Your last sentence doesn't make much sense to me. If it means what I think it does, it seems to be a red herring anyway.

[Jingthing]

No, I don't agree, JT.

This is something homophobes often say, so it's good to have an argument against it so well presented.

There is nothing wrong with being born one of a minority group. As a Jew, you know this perfectly well. I noticed on TV today that Obama is left-handed; that's another minority. We're not being put in an uncomfortable position; we're simply being attacked on false grounds, and we should counter them.

Your last sentence doesn't make much sense to me. If it means what I think it does, it seems to be a red herring anyway.

Fine if you don't agree.

Research will continue on the etiology of homosexuality.

It's in flux and likely will be for a very long time.

It's always going to be a very complex subject with no easy answers that would apply to all human sexuality.

The fight for civil rights for gay people should not be dependent on scientific findings, either way.

Let's say science definitively finds that being gay actually can be a choice, which there is no logical reason to rule out that possibility in some cases.

Then what? Then we say, oh, OK, it's OK to discriminate against us now because we may have chosen this status, whether partially or fully?

Clearly many "bi" people DO have a choice if they want to live more a gay life than a straight life, or vice versa.

By sticking to the dogma it's never a choice -- that's falling into a TRAP that doesn't need to be fallen into.

Being born into an ethnicity is clearly not a choice.

Also keep in mind that in the case of religion vs. ethnicity. indeed you CAN choose to be most any religion, including Jewish. See MADONNA.

While there are similarities between gay identity and ethnicity in sociological terms, they are clearly NOT EXACTLY the same thing, so I don't see the benefit in pretending that they are.

You are correct there is an error with my last sentence.

What I intended to say:

In other words, politically speaking, it should be OK to be gay whether you chose to be gay or not.

NOT

In other words, politically speaking, it should be OK to choose to be gay even if you don't actually choose it.

Thanks for pointing that error out ... it was big one. Oops.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Jingthing

[Caitrin]

Siampolee:

There are trans women lesbians. Indeed, there appears to be a higher incidence of homosexuality amongst transgender women than amongst cisgender women. Transgender is not a sexual orientation. It describes a state of having a gender identity which is opposed to the gender assigned by society (both in terms of legal documentation and in terms of social pressure of gender signifiers). The correct pronoun for a trans woman is she. How do I explain her relationship with another woman? I explain it by saying she's a woman who is romantically and sexually interested in women. Either a lesbian trans woman or a bisexual trans woman. There's no contradiction here.

As far as the choice issue...

Yes, even if being LGBT etc was a choice (and I don't think it is), it should be a morally acceptable one. However, I think this is a moot point, because I don't believe being straight and/or cisgender is a choice either. The entire discussion around choice or not is really a red herring.

[Jingthing]

Exactly. It's a red herring. Why concede that weapon to anti-gay zealots? The proper response to gays chose it is so what if they did? Would that justify bigotry?

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[asanee]

from a Thai view, or in fact SEA (south east asian): scores of young man do choose it as being kept by some whealthy rich older man other brings a far more simple and easy life as toiling for yourself and the wife+kids. With nearly the same sexual gratification too.

Oh sorry- you farang call that ''forced by circumstances''. Perhaps also western biased psychology in that article/study?

[Jingthing]

from a Thai view, or in fact SEA (south east asian): scores of young man do choose it as being kept by some whealthy rich older man other brings a far more simple and easy life as toiling for yourself and the wife+kids. With nearly the same sexual gratification too.

Oh sorry- you farang call that ''forced by circumstances''. Perhaps also western biased psychology in that article/study?

I think you are confused about what that is.

Gay for pay does not mean the person playing that game is necessarily gay in terms of ORIENTATION.

Many many straight orientation men are on that game. Perhaps even a majority.

A clinical term used to indicate gay sex without included orientation indication is MSM (men having sex with men).

Also both consensual and non-consensual sex in places like prisons often happens between men and most of them are not gay and if they get out, they resume their straight sex life.

I really think you have brought up an aspect of this that really doesn't belong on this thread.

The question is really about choosing to BE gay (the ORIENTATION), not choosing to have gay SEX. Again, they are not the same.

Of course many many people do choose to have gay sex ... nobody would question that.

That is so obviously TRUE that it would be silly to spend any academic resources studying that.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

A link that supports my current POV about how to think about the "choice" question:

I understand why My Husband's Not Gay is challenging to a lot of pro-gay people: We have been conditioned to chant the mantra "it's not a choice." Framing things as such idiot-proofs the argument over gay rights; if we view sexuality as something innate, as a designation bestowed to us upon birth or earlier, then it is morally unacceptable to discriminate and subjugate because of it.

The truth is more nuanced than that. The truth is that it shouldn't matter if it's a choice or not; you have the right to do whatever you want with another consenting body or bodies (within the realm of the law, I suppose, as long as that law doesn't include bigoted bullshit). Within that freedom comes choices. So many choices.

http://morningafter.gawker.com/why-you-should-watch-the-straight-married-gays-of-my-hu-1678557796

[irishsmile]

I used to be gay.... But I don't bother my arse anymore! Lol

It's all good fun until someone loses an eye!

Okay... I will shut up! Lol

[Jingthing]

I used to be gay.... But I don't bother my arse anymore! Lol

It's all good fun until someone loses an eye!

Okay... I will shut up! Lol

Send back the free toaster.

[puukao]

When i won my first race, my mom said "he is so gay." I cried for 3-weeks and she said, "why so sad?" I said, "you said i was gay." she said, "yes, go back to being gay...so much better than being sad," so i smiled and turned gay again.....

ok, this was more funny in my mind....

don't worry, i can make up better stuff!!!!! will save it for another thread.

[Jingthing]

When i won my first race, my mom said "he is so gay." I cried for 3-weeks and she said, "why so sad?" I said, "you said i was gay." she said, "yes, go back to being gay...so much better than being sad," so i smiled and turned gay again.....

ok, this was more funny in my mind....

don't worry, i can make up better stuff!!!!! will save it for another thread.

That's alright. Don't knock yourself out.

[taiwanatoa]

WHY?!

well, perhaps because I have taste.

[EmptyHead]

Sex is what you got between your legs.

Gender is what identity you feel (regardless of what is between your legs)

For example, a ladyboy is male sex, but female gender.

At least, that's what my sociologist/anthropologist professor told us.

I don't know where orientation fits it. What if a ladyboy likes having sex with women, or if a straight man likes the occasional ladyboy experience. Maybe that is orientation, i dunno.

I can't imagine anyone choosing to be gay. I can imagine them being gay and choosing to come out the closet. Or i can imagine a straight guy choosing to experiment with the same sex.

But to really choose to be gay or straight? I don't think it's a choice really. You are what you are.

Edited January 30, 2015 by EmptyHead

[A1Str8]

It's sexual repression nothing else.

[Caitrin]

EmptyHead: if a trans woman only sleeps with women (cis and or trans, because trans women are women), she's a lesbian. Ladyboys in Thailand are made up of several different shades of gender, so you can't make generic claims. Some think of themselves as a third gender, some think of themselves as binary trans women, some think of themselves as super effeminate gay men. Ask, it's the only way to know.

If a straight man sleeps with a trans woman, you just answered your own question: he's straight.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Caitrin

[EmptyHead]

"If a straight man sleeps with a trans woman, you just answered your own question: he's straight."

Well, that's a relief.