'Third gender' will be acknowledged in the new Thai constitution

[granuaile]

Get real, you sound like such a Trendy! Chicks with dicks are men. Just as the chromosomes suggest.

Just as chromosomes suggest? What defines gender? To X chromosomes? The presence of a Y chromosome? What of individuals who are XXY, or women with Turner's syndrome? Even chromosomes are not always one of two mutually exclusive combinations....

[Suradit69]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

An eloquent argument that demonstrates the need for such a law. You can't legislate intelligence so the only thing left is to attempt to legislate the behavior of those lacking it.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Suradit69

[DM07]

Just because of you narrow minded, god fearing rednecks don't understand a 3rd gender, doesn't mean, it doesn't exist!

I don't understand how d-minor works, therefore Beethoven or The Beatles don't exist?

I don't understand a hoot about quantum- mechanics, therefore it eff all exists?

Grow up, will you?

Or does it feel nice to snigger about ladyboys or transgenders like a 12 year- old?

[gemini81]

Get real, you sound like such a Trendy! Chicks with dicks are men. Just as the chromosomes suggest.

Just as chromosomes suggest? What defines gender? To X chromosomes? The presence of a Y chromosome? What of individuals who are XXY, or women with Turner's syndrome? Even chromosomes are not always one of two mutually exclusive combinations....

There are two: men & women. 1+1=2, not 3. Can dress it up call it whatever little politically correct term we may, there are men and women. Just some who wanna defy it. but they're still a boy or girl.

How many gender benders do we see in the animal world? How many female dogs have a set of nuts hanging?

[granuaile]

Just as chromosomes suggest? What defines gender? To X chromosomes? The presence of a Y chromosome? What of individuals who are XXY, or women with Turner's syndrome? Even chromosomes are not always one of two mutually exclusive combinations....

There are two: men & women. 1+1=2, not 3. Can dress it up call it whatever little politically correct term we may, there are men and women. Just some who wanna defy it. but they're still a boy or girl.

How many gender benders do we see in the animal world? How many female dogs have a set of nuts hanging?

Absolutely wrong, there are myriads of gender configurations, some people have mosaics where some of their chromosomes are for example xxx and others xx, or xxy and other cells xy. There are many cases of individuals with XXY (Klinefelter's) being born with both male and female genitalia (true hermaphrodites). It is not as simple as 1+1, and as some have noted some species of life change gender routinely.

[CajunCruiser]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

Regardless of how a surgeon might mutilate the body one was born with, in the end the gene structure is still only XY or XX (barring mutants, which are statistically insignificant).

But that's not the point.

The point is that a constitution, like 2007's, that says all people are equal under the law regardless of gender, ought to be enough by any common sense standard. Anything beyond this gets into the realm of special treatment for nontraditional lifestyles, which imho is wrong. Equal treatment is all that any of us are entitled to.

Edited January 14, 2015 by CajunCruiser

[Donnie Brasco]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

It's not "up to the Thais"

It's up to science.

When (after sex with another body-modified man) a tattooed, pierced man disposes of his used condom there will be male gametes on both sides of the membrane.

The science on this is settled.

He's had sex with a man he found sexually alluring. Big deal. Who cares ?

There is no third sex. The economic and a political market for it does not make it so.

[JeremyBowskill]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

Let's hope your children will be more enlightened than you are.

Isn't that what we hope for all our children, that the surpass us? Thanks for pointing out the bleeding obvious!

[JeremyBowskill]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

You don't believe a person should believe what their brain is telling them Then you mention god. So there endeth your argument.

Personally, no I do not believe in god, although I am open to the possibility that I am wrong on this. I believe we crawled out the ocean and evolution has brought us to the point of 2 genders, I put god in there because many believe, however I do not.

[Alan653]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

Youre not really "grasping" the ladyboy concept, are you? Man doesnt 'make' ladyboys... nature does.

Seriously? How is that?

Were they "magically" born with a penis and testicles and a set of 34b breasts?

God created TWO (2) genders, male and feamale, not both in the same body.

And just how did "nature" create ladyboys?

Yeah...your imaginary friend in the sky did that!

Why would anyone debate a 3rd gender, with people who might as well believe in a 900 year old dude with a big boat full of animals, talking snakes, guys who walk on water and that dinosaurs pooped on Adams lawn! #science , duh!

Actually, I find a 3rd gender much more believable!

Actually i find a pile of monkey crap more believeable than you!

[BSJ]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

You don't believe a person should believe what their brain is telling them Then you mention god. So there endeth your argument.

Personally, no I do not believe in god, although I am open to the possibility that I am wrong on this. I believe we crawled out the ocean and evolution has brought us to the point of 2 genders, I put god in there because many believe, however I do not.

And some of us want to get back in the ocean as often as possible! But I digress.

What the constitution has to lay out is the rights and obligations for citizen's and make no specific reference to ones sexuality. The constitution cannot become to specific or it's going to dis-enfranchise some groups over others. It's not a contract between 2 parties, it's a contract for everyone so it needs to be open in it's interpretation.

[Nemesis7]

Interesting changes in the constitution , let's see what comes next.

[mikemac]

Apologies for being a hypocrite after my previous post, i should of mentioned I am prejudiced against small minded unintelligent god bothering bigots..........

Lest we forget, In the beginning, (following your 'god created' logic).....god created hermaphrodites, androgony, acne, autism, muslim terrorists and justin Beiber..........and god was pleased with what he had created, even though 'man' was not so pleased, especially with Justin Beiber......

Parrot fish are sequential hermaphrodites, some types of snail are true hermaphrodites.........have fun with google....(god created that too )

Thank you god, amen.

Thanks GM, your first line made me forget what a rotten day I had at work today !

[DM07]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

Youre not really "grasping" the ladyboy concept, are you? Man doesnt 'make' ladyboys... nature does.

Seriously? How is that?

Were they "magically" born with a penis and testicles and a set of 34b breasts?

God created TWO (2) genders, male and feamale, not both in the same body.

And just how did "nature" create ladyboys?

Yeah...your imaginary friend in the sky did that!

Why would anyone debate a 3rd gender, with people who might as well believe in a 900 year old dude with a big boat full of animals, talking snakes, guys who walk on water and that dinosaurs pooped on Adams lawn! #science , duh!

Actually, I find a 3rd gender much more believable!

Actually i find a pile of monkey crap more believeable than you!

Say 3 "hail Marries" and 5 "Lords prayers" and I will absolve you!

[delgarcon]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

An eloquent argument that demonstrates the need for such a law. You can't legislate intelligence so the only thing left is to attempt to legislate the behavior of those lacking it.

So if we're going to legislate their behaviour, the 3 genders should be men, women and pickpockets!

[Jingthing]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

An eloquent argument that demonstrates the need for such a law. You can't legislate intelligence so the only thing left is to attempt to legislate the behavior of those lacking it.

So if we're going to legislate their behaviour, the 3 genders should be men, women and pickpockets!

Interesting.

The truth is that too many transgender Thais do feel marginalized in Thai society and strongly pushed into a very few professions, some of them illegal. I think one of the worthy goals of equality language in a constitution is to show inclusiveness from the top with at least the hope that it will filter down over time. I am not making excuses for thieves of any identity but I do know sexual minorities in Thailand are not treated equally in Thai society.

If a kid is bending that way and all he/she hears are messages that he/she is only good for certain roles ... well, that gets internalized and that's not good for him/her OR for the society at large. That person if encouraged had the same potential as anyone to be anything they were capable of.

When the FAMILY of such a person is unusually understanding, that can greatly mitigate the stigma from society. But that is all too rare.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Jingthing

[gemini81]

Get real, you sound like such a Trendy! Chicks with dicks are men. Just as the chromosomes suggest.

Just as chromosomes suggest? What defines gender? To X chromosomes? The presence of a Y chromosome? What of individuals who are XXY, or women with Turner's syndrome? Even chromosomes are not always one of two mutually exclusive combinations....

We're all people. Sub categorizing and gender this, gender that, gender rights is nonsense and just further divides people. All regular/irregular/freaks of nature examples you used, still are all people, simple enough.

What defines gender? A male and female, you know that.

What defies gender? Justin Bieber & K-Pop.

[JOC]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

The government mainly consisting of men in their fifties or sixties have the insight to realize that there exists a grey area where legislation is needed!! Well done to them.

But clearly some Thaivisa-posters are still living in the dark ages....................

[JeremyBowskill]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

The government mainly consisting of men in their fifties or sixties have the insight to realize that there exists a grey area where legislation is needed!! Well done to them.

But clearly some Thaivisa-posters are still living in the dark ages....................

Not now I have seen the light I'm not. How much more rights do they need than everyone else? Surely equal rights for all will suffice, no? No need to go making up 3rd genders really, how many more genders do we need?

[gemini81]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

The government mainly consisting of men in their fifties or sixties have the insight to realize that there exists a grey area where legislation is needed!! Well done to them.

But clearly some Thaivisa-posters are still living in the dark ages....................

Not now I have seen the light I'm not. How much more rights do they need than everyone else? Surely equal rights for all will suffice, no? No need to go making up 3rd genders really, how many more genders do we need?

Its a 'special rights' issue seems like, and he must be under pressure to examine this. The funny thing is no where else in the world are they more respected and fit into society than they're accepted here. Reminiscent of all sorts of groups in the west that want more special rights than common Joe, and it just ends up dividing people when it ain't really necessary since we're all people anyway...

Edited January 14, 2015 by gemini81

[Neeranam]

I wonder if the constitution is going to have rights for other mentally ill persons. Or by including these people are Thailand saying they disagree with the West?

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder according to the experts. It was formerly called Gender Identity Disorder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5 by the American Psychiatrists Association.

[Caitrin]

Sweet baby Jesus there's a lot of ignorance about being trans in this thread. Well, that, and blatant transphobia. I'll work my way backwards.

Gender dysphoria is not a mental disorder according to the experts. That's precisely why the DSM designation was changed. The designation change is so that dysphoria, which comes from external sources can be successfully dealt with. It's not that there is anything inherently disordered about the transgender person's gender identity, but rather it's the fact that being transgender in a cisgender (that's most of you folks, if not all of you folks in this discussion) world causes stress. Why? Because as this thread proves, most cisgender people, and certainly cisgender institutions which is, you know, most institutions in every nation on the planet, tend to react badly to transgender people. You're proving it right now! The change was made because GID (D being for disorder) unfairly and incorrectly pathologised the natural reaction of trans people to a cis world: y'all stress trans people out, and you should really be better about that. It's not them, cis people; it's you.

Now, to physicality, as was pointed out, there are a number of potential chromosomal variances. But even more than that, sex and how we tie to the concept of gender (and gender is a social construction, a give and take between an internal identity and an externally recognised identity, not a biological fact) is made up of way more than chromosomes. There's genitalia, sure, but there is also hormone levels, brain structure, environmental factors affecting both, etc, etc. Truth is, there are a lot of "mutants" when you consider the widest possible definition of non-dimorphism. At least 1 in 1000. That's an awful lot of people when you consider absolute numbers. Some may have mild non-dimorphism, others may have very obvious non-dimorphism (intersex children with ambiguous genitalia at birth for example), but how these differences in "sex" affect an individual's understanding of their "gender," we're only starting to scratch the surface of the reality of their lived experiences. What we do know is that these lived experiences are real and they have some biological and physiological facets.

Now, as gender is a social construction, an identity which is a balance between internal identification and external identification, they idea of a third gender or a third sex is one which has long been recognised in many cultures, including Western European ones (although not so much after modern Christianity swept through). This is not new. Not new for Thailand, not new for the West, not new for humanity. As most people tend to look and act according to their society's binary gendering, some cultures have attempted to accommodate these individuals (individuals we might label as transgender or intersex or both in our modern Western terminology) by providing them with a third space. In truth, we probably need something more like a spectrum of human gender variance, or even a sphere, accounting for multiple axes of identification, recognition, expression, and presentation.

tl;dr Humans are complicated. Complicated isn't bad. Trans people are uncommon, but uncommon doesn't mean abnormal. Certainly not disordered.

On topic: this is a step in the right direction, but Thailand, which was rightly pointed out as one of the premiere countries for sex reassignment surgery both in technique and in numbers performed (not to mention in terms of affordability), needs to provide a way for individuals to change their gender marker. Right now binary trans people in Thailand (that is they do not see themselves as a third sex or third gender, but rather wholly male or wholly female, regardless of the original assignment at birth) cannot change their gender markers. Having the option of a third box is a good step, but it shouldn't be the only one.

[Alwyn]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

It's more about what is in the brain of transgender persons than how they dress really. Some people strongly feel they were born into the wrong sex and can never be fulfilled as human beings until they do all they can to fix what they see as a mistake. Merely dressing in drag is not the same thing. That activity is sometimes enjoyed by both gay and straight men who have no gender identity issues at all.

It is my understanding that Thailand is the leading country in the world in gender reassignment surgical procedures (BOTH ways) with Iran being the number two spot.

Yup, well I met a fella once who believed in his own brain that he was Genghis Khan (turns out he had just done way too much acid). Just because the brain believes something, I'm not sure that makes it so......

You can grow up and chop off your wedding tackle if you like, it doesn't move you to a third gender, it simply makes a step closer to the other gender.

+ 1. Agreed. Chopping the tackle off doesn't give the person ovaries nor the ability to give birth which is a primary female function. That and multi-tasking I keep getting told...

[Gentmartin]

Sweet baby Jesus there's a lot of ignorance about being trans in this thread. Well, that, and blatant transphobia. I'll work my way backwards.

Gender dysphoria is not a mental disorder according to the experts. That's precisely why the DSM designation was changed. The designation change is so that dysphoria, which comes from external sources can be successfully dealt with. It's not that there is anything inherently disordered about the transgender person's gender identity, but rather it's the fact that being transgender in a cisgender (that's most of you folks, if not all of you folks in this discussion) world causes stress. Why? Because as this thread proves, most cisgender people, and certainly cisgender institutions which is, you know, most institutions in every nation on the planet, tend to react badly to transgender people. You're proving it right now! The change was made because GID (D being for disorder) unfairly and incorrectly pathologised the natural reaction of trans people to a cis world: y'all stress trans people out, and you should really be better about that. It's not them, cis people; it's you.

Now, to physicality, as was pointed out, there are a number of potential chromosomal variances. But even more than that, sex and how we tie to the concept of gender (and gender is a social construction, a give and take between an internal identity and an externally recognised identity, not a biological fact) is made up of way more than chromosomes. There's genitalia, sure, but there is also hormone levels, brain structure, environmental factors affecting both, etc, etc. Truth is, there are a lot of "mutants" when you consider the widest possible definition of non-dimorphism. At least 1 in 1000. That's an awful lot of people when you consider absolute numbers. Some may have mild non-dimorphism, others may have very obvious non-dimorphism (intersex children with ambiguous genitalia at birth for example), but how these differences in "sex" affect an individual's understanding of their "gender," we're only starting to scratch the surface of the reality of their lived experiences. What we do know is that these lived experiences are real and they have some biological and physiological facets.

Now, as gender is a social construction, an identity which is a balance between internal identification and external identification, they idea of a third gender or a third sex is one which has long been recognised in many cultures, including Western European ones (although not so much after modern Christianity swept through). This is not new. Not new for Thailand, not new for the West, not new for humanity. As most people tend to look and act according to their society's binary gendering, some cultures have attempted to accommodate these individuals (individuals we might label as transgender or intersex or both in our modern Western terminology) by providing them with a third space. In truth, we probably need something more like a spectrum of human gender variance, or even a sphere, accounting for multiple axes of identification, recognition, expression, and presentation.

tl;dr Humans are complicated. Complicated isn't bad. Trans people are uncommon, but uncommon doesn't mean abnormal. Certainly not disordered.

On topic: this is a step in the right direction, but Thailand, which was rightly pointed out as one of the premiere countries for sex reassignment surgery both in technique and in numbers performed (not to mention in terms of affordability), needs to provide a way for individuals to change their gender marker. Right now binary trans people in Thailand (that is they do not see themselves as a third sex or third gender, but rather wholly male or wholly female, regardless of the original assignment at birth) cannot change their gender markers. Having the option of a third box is a good step, but it shouldn't be the only one.

Fantastic and informative post, thank you.

[Caitrin]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

It's more about what is in the brain of transgender persons than how they dress really. Some people strongly feel they were born into the wrong sex and can never be fulfilled as human beings until they do all they can to fix what they see as a mistake. Merely dressing in drag is not the same thing. That activity is sometimes enjoyed by both gay and straight men who have no gender identity issues at all.

It is my understanding that Thailand is the leading country in the world in gender reassignment surgical procedures (BOTH ways) with Iran being the number two spot.

Yup, well I met a fella once who believed in his own brain that he was Genghis Khan (turns out he had just done way too much acid). Just because the brain believes something, I'm not sure that makes it so......

You can grow up and chop off your wedding tackle if you like, it doesn't move you to a third gender, it simply makes a step closer to the other gender.

+ 1. Agreed. Chopping the tackle off doesn't give the person ovaries nor the ability to give birth which is a primary female function. That and multi-tasking I keep getting told...

First off, for commenters on a Thai website, and Thailand being responsible for a number of modern sex reassignment surgical techniques, you guys appear to know nothing about how SRS works. You don't "chop" things off. Guess what: vaginas, penises, ovaries, testes? They're made from the same stuff! They respond via receptors to hormones both in utero and during puberty, but it's still the same stuff. SRS "reconfigures" that stuff, to put it overly simplistically. You have Google, the wonder of the modern age, use it, before you insert your digital foot directly into your digital mouth.

Edit: Also, eeeeeewwwww at the idea of "giving birth" as a primary female function. We're talking about humans here, not animals, and female humans, as individuals, have no need to give birth. Some even have their reproductive organs removed, they're that opposed to baby making.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Caitrin

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

What about to create the world first "Third gender" army division at the same time? (must be enough of them in Thailand to make up a division) All wearing Burberry designed combat gear.

[JeremyBowskill]

Caitrin.

So they don't suck the meat out the sausage and invert it then? Actually I don't care what they do, there is still no need for a third gender, only equal rights for all humans regardless of gender.

[Caitrin]

Not exactly, no. You're talking about the penile inversion technique, and it's far more complicated than you're making it out to be. For one thing, the spongy muscle material that develops for purposes of erection is, to be blunt, absolutely unnecessary for arousal and orgasm. In general, the shaft has one biological purpose. And regardless of whether a trans woman is straight, bisexual, or lesbian, you can bet that in the vast majority of cases, she's very much not into that. The nerve endings are clustered in the head (to be honest, mostly in the glans) which is placed where it originally developed from anyway; as the clitoris. Sexual function (arousal and orgasm) are maintained in the vast majority of cases.

By its very name, penile inversion, it can't possibly be "chopped off" because if you chopped it off, you would lose everything, not just the irrelevant spongy muscle material. If you knew this, why be a transphobic jerk about it, spouting misinformation about the technique?

And some people are a third gender. Or agender. Anyhow, wouldn't it be great if we just magically didn't have to put up with discrimination because of equal rights for all humans. How's that working out for us? Sounds like the kind of claptrap people who don't live as a minority (globally speaking) usually say. "I don't even see race," "I don't have an issue with gay people, but they shouldn't stick their orientations in other people's faces" etc.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Caitrin

[Gentmartin]

Caitrin.

So they don't suck the meat out the sausage and invert it then? Actually I don't care what they do, there is still no need for a third gender, only equal rights for all humans regardless of gender.

Well done, you manage to disprove the opposing theories of intelligent design and evolution in one post....congrats :-)

[NeilSA1]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

,,,and a man who wants to dress like a woman but cannot, because he is a chicken ? Is he then a man, or a mouse?