Pope on Charlie Hebdo: There are limits to free expression

[ABCer]

About the Pope - better should have kept his mouth in check on this topic. His comment re: freedom of speech is a typical Catholic "yes, but no". Nothing new.

About sacrilege - there are many different religious belief's. What is sacred for one is a joke to another. People were killing each other in the name of their gods since the dawn. Nothing new.

About respect and self-restraint- I do not owe any respect to anybody else unless it is earned. Useless to demand respect without good enough reason. Nothing new.

About terror - terror, subjugation and intolerance has been used by all known religions in the past. All religions moved away from this except Islam. Nothing new.

About Muslims - there are no Good/Bad, Peaceful/Militant, Jihadists/Progressive Muslims. Just Muslims, the Koran People. There is something new here!

About News - Who let 45 MILLIONS of Muslims into Europe?

[oneday]

Well Pope...you are wrong by saying this because you are virtually handing a victory to the Islamic Extremists. It is tantamount to telling these barbaric cretins, "go ahead and kill people who belittle your faith...you are justified".

How dare a Pope, of all people, give even a hint of justification to people like this. Disgusting.

[klauskunkel]

To the Pope:

There are limits to free expression when people speak to each other face to face. These are inherently moral, ethical and common sense instilled by upbringing and social environment. These limits are self-imposed.

Limits to free expression re. magazines, movies, blogs, etc. are thus: if you don't like them, don't read them.

That's it.

And another thing, Pope, what happened to 'Turn the other cheek'?

Edited January 16, 2015 by klauskunkel

[notmyself]

I don't see why insulting someone's religion is any different to insulting someone's politics. It's all part of the mechanism religions use to control people.

Indeed. Why should faith be immune from ridicule?

[Mzungu]

Who sets the limits? The pope?? It shows how retarded religion is...

[Seastallion]

I don't see why insulting someone's religion is any different to insulting someone's politics. It's all part of the mechanism religions use to control people.

Indeed. Why should faith be immune from ridicule?

I don't think it should be immune, however if you know you are offending someone, why do it, particularly if you intend to offend. Forget about religion per se as it's no more nor less a target for ridicule as other things...it's the offense that's made that matters.

The pastor of Westboro Baptist Church has a right to make his comments about homosexuals. He has a right to picket veteran funerals, and burn Q'urans.....and he certainly offends a lot of people in doing so. We give him the right, but oh so grudgingly, because he does abuse it.

[tracker1]

Take an each way bet and stay safe

[Lukecan]

There is huge amount of hypocricy going on in Europe, its a laughing stock really.

In France it is a crime to deny the so called " Armenian Genocide"

But if you mock the prophet who is worshipped by a billlion people, it is called freedom of speech.

What would happen if I as a turk, set up a magazine there and mocked the victims of the Armenian genocide?

What if I published a cartoon showing Hitler putting jews in an oven?

My magazine would be raided by the cops the same day, and I would probably face jail time. And mossad would probably assasinate me. Dont get me wrong, I am not a nazi, nor do I like Hitler, he is a sick person.

2 Turkish kids were jailed in Poland 2 years ago for doing nazi salute as a joke. Is this freedom of speech, they werent even serious.

So tell me what is the difference between mocking the prophet and the genocide victims? S.A.V Mohammed is considered very holy in Islam, whether you like it or not.If you mock him, you're taking a very big risk in a continent with millions of muslims.

When there is real freedom of speech in Europe, I might consider moving over there. But there is no freedom of speech, you cant say hail hitler, you cant mock genocide victims, you cant call gays pervarts. This is BS really. Until you're allowed to do these things there is no freedom of speech, freedom of speech only exists if you're mocking the muslim minority.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Lukecan

[Sydebolle]

Well, Charlie Hebdo just got its next front cover then. Wondering how they connect the pope to his latest journey to Sri Lanka and the Pilipinas 8-)

[ABCer]

Take an each way bet and stay safe

Hey, tracker1, what does this mean?

- you get a circumcision and penis enlargement?

- you are a Muslim Jew or an Arab Christian?

- you are wearing a bulletproof vest under your plastic explosives?

- is your swimwear fur lined?

- may be you are a part time Pope and part time Imam?

teach me, please.

[Don Aleman]

As a "paroled " Catholic I say ," Pope, stick to religious myths/collecting donations and keep your nose out of long standing human rights as in Freedom Of Speech ". You, Pope have lived an unnatural life, ( no smoking/drinking/

women/long pants/gambling not even any porno ), so your opinions have no

meaning to those living a real life.

[redandyellow]

If the Muslim Moderates don't - won't - can't stand up in larger numbers to fight this plague on humanity and so far they haven't, then someone has to step up, in this case the unbelievably brave remaining employees at Charlie Hebdo.

It's in the same league as the storming of the Bastille, climbing up to the Guillotine, balls-wise..

They laughed at the ineptitude of the French in WW1, but most of the Generals were inept, not brought up from the ranks, but from entitlement.

When push comes to shove, French can more than match any group for resiliency and toughness.

They have the spirit of WW2 Resistance Fighters, as opposed to cowering in fear.

We are still in the Dark Ages, scientifically proven by what's on the News every day..

[MikeOboe57]

The clerical establishment in the Vatican will breathe a sigh of relief. After stirring the xxxx with a couple of piss and vinegar speeches about radical reforms this pope has shown that he is as traditionalist and backwards as most of his predecessors. Instead of using the opportunity to promote a peaceful and non-violent Christian attitude towards free speech, especially after this horrific event, he preferred to team up with a handful of imams to call for (self-) censorship and tops it all with a really abysmal allegory.

So do we now have to accept that if insulting someone´s mother is such a grave issue that even Jesus Christ´s deputy must resort to violent retribution, it is appropriate to gun down newspaper staff who allegedly "insulted the Prophet"? I cannot believe that Pope Francis is too dumb to see how this statement can and will be interpreted

But, Your Holiness should realize that, no matter how much you cosy up to muslim demands for criminal prosecution of "blasphemy" and restriction fo free speech, you will in their eyes be at best leader of the dhimmi, or at worst head of the infidels. Anything else is just taqqiya.

[Morch]

There is huge amount of hypocricy going on in Europe, its a laughing stock really.

In France it is a crime to deny the so called " Armenian Genocide"

But if you mock the prophet who is worshipped by a billlion people, it is called freedom of speech.

What would happen if I as a turk, set up a magazine there and mocked the victims of the Armenian genocide?

What if I published a cartoon showing Hitler putting jews in an oven?

My magazine would be raided by the cops the same day, and I would probably face jail time. And mossad would probably assasinate me. Dont get me wrong, I am not a nazi, nor do I like Hitler, he is a sick person.

2 Turkish kids were jailed in Poland 2 years ago for doing nazi salute as a joke. Is this freedom of speech, they werent even serious.

So tell me what is the difference between mocking the prophet and the genocide victims? S.A.V Mohammed is considered very holy in Islam, whether you like it or not.If you mock him, you're taking a very big risk in a continent with millions of muslims.

When there is real freedom of speech in Europe, I might consider moving over there. But there is no freedom of speech, you cant say hail hitler, you cant mock genocide victims, you cant call gays pervarts. This is BS really. Until you're allowed to do these things there is no freedom of speech, freedom of speech only exists if you're mocking the muslim minority.

The difference is the custom of the land.

Some things are acceptable in certain countries, abhorred or frowned upon in others.

Nazi related imagery and cartoons may be acceptable in some countries, probably less so in Europe.

Blasphemy is acceptable in certain countries, not everywhere around the globe.

Bringing up the Armenian Holocaust in Konya will result in different reactions than if discussed in Paris.

There is also a noticeable difference in the level of punishment netted for offenses.

Hurt Western sensitivities in the West is generally much safer than a similar act elsewhere.

And no, the Mossad will probably wouldn't give two figs about what you say or do.

As far as I recall, these guys weren't harmed, right?

Hyperbole, much?

[neverdie]

I sort of agree with him. A lot of those cartoons are unnecessarily offensive toward religion in general, but there is no absolutely justification for murdering the artists, the employees or the innocent people who just happened to be be in the building.

Well said sir.

These murdering bastardds are just Savages.....straight from the trees !

[Thai at Heart]

The comic irony of this is of course that he heads up an organisation that has actively tried to hush up criminal activity and as such has shou be glad that one of the lessor sanction his organisation should face is lampoonery.

His organisation has to face far greater obstacles than Charlie hebdo.

Would he give me a slap if I walked up to him and said "paedophile protecter!"

Wouldn't that be a bit of comic genius. This is definitely be a case of "let he who is free of guilt throw the first stone".

[neverdie]

Well Pope...you are wrong by saying this because you are virtually handing a victory to the Islamic Extremists. It is tantamount to telling these barbaric cretins, "go ahead and kill people who belittle your faith...you are justified".

How dare a Pope, of all people, give even a hint of justification to people like this. Disgusting.

Not surprising though. When you see all the nasty

Evil things done by clergy within his organisation, the decades of kiddy fiddling & cover ups, it's no surprise that he leans towards the devil.

Religious scams & Religious evil, it's spread far and wide, every corner of the earth.

[notmyself]

[Nemesis7]

My respect for you Pope.

[Steely Dan]

There is huge amount of hypocricy going on in Europe, its a laughing stock really.

In France it is a crime to deny the so called " Armenian Genocide"

But if you mock the prophet who is worshipped by a billlion people, it is called freedom of speech.

What would happen if I as a turk, set up a magazine there and mocked the victims of the Armenian genocide?

What if I published a cartoon showing Hitler putting jews in an oven?

My magazine would be raided by the cops the same day, and I would probably face jail time. And mossad would probably assasinate me. Dont get me wrong, I am not a nazi, nor do I like Hitler, he is a sick person.

2 Turkish kids were jailed in Poland 2 years ago for doing nazi salute as a joke. Is this freedom of speech, they werent even serious.

So tell me what is the difference between mocking the prophet and the genocide victims? S.A.V Mohammed is considered very holy in Islam, whether you like it or not.If you mock him, you're taking a very big risk in a continent with millions of muslims.

When there is real freedom of speech in Europe, I might consider moving over there. But there is no freedom of speech, you cant say hail hitler, you cant mock genocide victims, you cant call gays pervarts. This is BS really. Until you're allowed to do these things there is no freedom of speech, freedom of speech only exists if you're mocking the muslim minority.

As I wrote on another thread, if other religions were granted the same dispensations in the Islamic world as Islam is in the West you might have a point, though I note that Turkey just allowed the first new Church opening in 90 years. They are not and as such the only equitable approach is when in Rome do as the Romans do, and if you don't like it don't let the door hit you on the backside on the way out. The genocides, including the Armenian one were real enough, the existence of Mohammad and his status as a prophet are (shall we charitably say) not proven. This is not intended to be provocative, but just to demonstrate how perceptions are culturally so different, like mixing oil and water. Edited January 16, 2015 by Steely Dan

[ChatterRat]

There is no chicken or egg problem here, violence in certain corners of Islam existed before the Mohammed cartoons where printed.
If there was no problem with violence/terrorism the satirical cartoons would have made no sense.
The idea of satirical cartoons is to shine a light into dark parts of our society, its serves a very important role in that respect.

As the Catholic church has many dark corners of its own, its predictable if somewhat disappointing that the Pope wishes to dim the torches.

[arjunadawn]

The Pope has entered into dangerous, but familiar legal waters. The parameters of freedom of speech have been worked out repeatedly through countless judicial proceedings, in many western countries over the years. In this time a central, core component of freedom of speech has been solidified and reinforced. Likewise, what constitutes the limits of free speech has been defined, and that litmus test is usually limited to screaming "fire" in a theater. If the demands of muslims create a theater in our western cultures, all is lost.

The Pope's comments were the same crap that people say in bars when they begin "No disrespect intended..." and invariably disrespect follows. The Pope supported freedom of speech on the one hand, then challenged countless years of freedom of speech regarding parameters by implying disrespecting a religious icon, that highly subjective act, is beyond freedom of speech.

What the Pope is doing is blatantly playing a card in support of the many ongoing steps to enact Anti Blasphemy Laws around the world. Remember, muslims don't respect other religions now, with anti-blasphemy laws, that muslims are urging, they will respect others less, and have legislative gunpowder for their arsenal against other faiths, and peoples.

There is a reason former Jesuit Malachi Martin warned us in his book "Jesuits" about the dangers of the Society of Jesus- Jesuits, and their ultra liberal liberation theology threat (just look to a number of Latin American leftist revolutions and the Rasputins behind the scenes). This book was written, I believe, in the 70s. Nearly everything Martin warns us of this Jesuit Pope is proving true. Expect a greater international slide to the left and a shocking accommodation of Islam.

[wabothai]

Allthough I have left the catholic church for misinformation and indoctrination I tend to agree with the pope.

We legally can seek the borders in the dark noman's land of free speech, however when we do, under the cover of free speech, insult we can expect retribution, especially from people who disagree and are ignorant of western ways and coming from a different culture.

However, killing people to force your believes on others is universally not accepted.

I hope Thailand is listening.

[jpinx]

The Pope has entered into dangerous, but familiar legal waters. The parameters of freedom of speech have been worked out repeatedly through countless judicial proceedings, in many western countries over the years. In this time a central, core component of freedom of speech has been solidified and reinforced. Likewise, what constitutes the limits of free speech has been defined, and that litmus test is usually limited to screaming "fire" in a theater. If the demands of muslims create a theater in our western cultures, all is lost.

The Pope's comments were the same crap that people say in bars when they begin "No disrespect intended..." and invariably disrespect follows. The Pope supported freedom of speech on the one hand, then challenged countless years of freedom of speech regarding parameters by implying disrespecting a religious icon, that highly subjective act, is beyond freedom of speech.

What the Pope is doing is blatantly playing a card in support of the many ongoing steps to enact Anti Blasphemy Laws around the world. Remember, muslims don't respect other religions now, with anti-blasphemy laws, that muslims are urging, they will respect others less, and have legislative gunpowder for their arsenal against other faiths, and peoples.

There is a reason former Jesuit Malachi Martin warned us in his book "Jesuits" about the dangers of the Society of Jesus- Jesuits, and their ultra liberal liberation theology threat (just look to a number of Latin American leftist revolutions and the Rasputins behind the scenes). This book was written, I believe, in the 70s. Nearly everything Martin warns us of this Jesuit Pope is proving true. Expect a greater international slide to the left and a shocking accommodation of Islam.

True in some respects, but the muslims are only cpoying what USA did with their "war on terror". Reach out into legislations not under their control and eliminate (one way of another) the opposition that threatens their "way of life". The FBI/CIA/NSA have created more patsies than there have been genuine, real threats. Meantime the Pope is reinforcing the apparition of "free speech". As I have said many times, there are no rights to free speech unless the speaker first accepts responsibilty for the consequences of what he has to say.

[arjunadawn]

The Pope has entered into dangerous, but familiar legal waters. The parameters of freedom of speech have been worked out repeatedly through countless judicial proceedings, in many western countries over the years. In this time a central, core component of freedom of speech has been solidified and reinforced. Likewise, what constitutes the limits of free speech has been defined, and that litmus test is usually limited to screaming "fire" in a theater. If the demands of muslims create a theater in our western cultures, all is lost.

The Pope's comments were the same crap that people say in bars when they begin "No disrespect intended..." and invariably disrespect follows. The Pope supported freedom of speech on the one hand, then challenged countless years of freedom of speech regarding parameters by implying disrespecting a religious icon, that highly subjective act, is beyond freedom of speech.

What the Pope is doing is blatantly playing a card in support of the many ongoing steps to enact Anti Blasphemy Laws around the world. Remember, muslims don't respect other religions now, with anti-blasphemy laws, that muslims are urging, they will respect others less, and have legislative gunpowder for their arsenal against other faiths, and peoples.

There is a reason former Jesuit Malachi Martin warned us in his book "Jesuits" about the dangers of the Society of Jesus- Jesuits, and their ultra liberal liberation theology threat (just look to a number of Latin American leftist revolutions and the Rasputins behind the scenes). This book was written, I believe, in the 70s. Nearly everything Martin warns us of this Jesuit Pope is proving true. Expect a greater international slide to the left and a shocking accommodation of Islam.

True in some respects, but the muslims are only cpoying what USA did with their "war on terror". Reach out into legislations not under their control and eliminate (one way of another) the opposition that threatens their "way of life". The FBI/CIA/NSA have created more patsies than there have been genuine, real threats. Meantime the Pope is reinforcing the apparition of "free speech". As I have said many times, there are no rights to free speech unless the speaker first accepts responsibilty for the consequences of what he has to say.

Brother (I assume), you have valid points but IMO mix a few things up. In the US it is a disgusting truth that the US government is in one way or another closely married to nearly every single plot since WTC bombing, 1992 (search online- true!). These are facts in one way or another packaged as sting operations, preventive law enforcement. At a certain point you wonder where are the actual bad guys. I get it. I agree with you.

But inherent in your post is the cause and effect that muslims did A because someone else did B. This is plain false logic. It is this (kinda understandable) logic that disables the west from a real appreciation of the threat. Jihad was/is coming irrespective of who did "B." It is a false narrative that these acts are reactionary. Even if it were so that these acts are reactionary numbing ourselves over time to the absurdity that this is an excuse is insanity. These various acts throughout the world are totally connected; indeed, there are numerous places where jihad rages where the west has been absent for a very long time. Regardless, these are the only people on earth who do this because they are divinely authorized to. We should never grow comfortable thinking such inferior cultural norms are agreeable, explainable, or acceptable at any level.

That there are no rights to free speech unless the speaker accepts responsibility first for the consequences is the law of the jungle. Society provides both the framework and the protections for free speech. I agree some people should shut the F up and I can line up and name them, but they have a right to because free speech is designed not for popular speech, but for the ugliest speech the mouth can muster. In all the deliberations regarding the First Amendment it was to this, ugly, reprehensible speech, that they sought to protect. Society, for which being a member binds one to a social contract of sorts, does not anticipate a mouth being assassinated for first not acting responsibility for consequences. I simply differ with you. Their "way of life" ends where the social fabric of the host nation begins. Don't like it? They should get the F out.

[notmyself]

From an alternative news outlet.

Freedom of speech about as important as freedom to use condoms, insists Pope

The Pope has reminded everyone that freedom of speech is not a divine right, and that much like a condom, you should not use it just because you can.

Speaking to journalists in the Philippines, the Pope insisted that people had the right to say anything they like, as long as it didnt poke fun at all the made up things he believes are important.

[...]

For example, The Catholic church has taught us over the years that you are free tell as many people as you like about the Lord and his Catholic flavoured teachings, but if youre an abused altar boy you should probably keep that to yourself.

http://newsthump.com/2015/01/16/freedom-of-speech-about-as-important-as-freedom-to-use-condoms-insists-pope/

[mutha289]

Anyone living in Thailand already knows that there are limits on free speech!

[MJP]

Pakistan clashes over Charlie Hebdo cartoon

Pakistani police have clashed with crowds protesting over an image of the Prophet Muhammad published in French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-30848689

[notmyself]

No one is allow to violate my freedom of speech with violence. If he does, he is the criminal because violence in most cases is a crime.

But not always.

[NeverSure]

No one is allow to violate my freedom of speech with violence. If he does, he is the criminal because violence in most cases is a crime.

But not always.

Of course not always. I can't threaten someone with violence or yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

But political and religious speech is rigorously protected.

The Pope got it wrong this time. There is no excuse for using violence against speech you don't like.