Pope's climate-change stand deepens conservatives' distrust

[Nakajima]

Nakajima, you seem to be an angry person and full of insults. Did you know that is a sign of someone arguing from a position in which he has no confidence.

All I said was that there is no evidence that last century's warming (of less than a degree) cannot be discounted as part of the natural cycle. I say this not only because we are still recovering from an ice age, but also because the climate record shows many warming and cooling periods and we are currently at a low temperature - if you take the last 10,000 years as an average. In fact I would say it is unusually cool and any warming we are now experiencing is actually overdue. All of this is well documented and does not require any proving.

By the way you were correct about the correlation between CO2 and warming in the temperature record. But it is the other way around. The increase in CO2 lags behind the temperature increase by about 700 years. Indicating, that temperature increase drives the ocean to release more CO2. Oops, if temperature drives carbon, then how can carbon drive temperature. Head scratcher eh?

You have got to be kidding me right? You say it's unusual cool? I feel cold too tonight, well then you must be right! Yeah science works just like this.

You are really citing 'science' from The Institute for Creation Research http://www.icr.org/article/4128 and want me to answer you seriously?

You are coming discussing about science carrying the scientific "weight" of people that believe an invisible man created everything as it is few thousand years ago?

Then you wonder why I have to insult people like you?

Please go extinct like the dinosaurs Creationists believe existed not so long ago!

Mistake not, you will.

Here is where we are at the far right of the last 10,000 year's temperature record.

A chart without a reference link is of no value, you could have done that yourself of just downloaded from Fox News. Please link the source and then we'll discuss. That is how science works.

[Nakajima]

Gosh you would crucify Jesus again just to defend your real god: profit!

As a practising Christian, I find that remark extremely offensive. But you don't care about that, do you?

All you display, is trolling to get a reaction by abusing anyone who disagrees with you as stupid, evil, infantile, paid-off, and uneducated. Your abusive attitude says much more about you than it does about me.

and you saying "stupid, evil, infantile, paid-off, and uneducated" is mature and educated.

You keep avoiding the scientific issues by now crying that I offended you. You couldn't provide one link, one piece of scientific evidence to support your conspiracy theory that scientist want to destroy western industrial system.

You are uneducated as you have no idea how the scientific method works and what my abusive attitude says about ME has nothing to do with global warming. I could be the worse <deleted> in the world and doesn't change the fact that your claims are just right-wing oil corporations sponsored non scientific ignorant bulls. I could even brag about my education but I am not going to do so, because it does not matter who you or I are and what we know, it's not about us it's about science.

You find the idea of global warming, true or not, more extraordinary than quantum entanglement? because I find the second much harder to believe! What about faster than light neutrino? That is evidence science can prove itself wrong too when corroborated by facts obtained thru scientific method analysis.

Conservatives have been crusading against science since the beginning of times. You are so afraid of changes and scared of what you don't understand. Conservatives cut funding to education, force Creationism teaching in schools, shut down Texas super-collider, cut funding to NASA. That is why you have been loosing on every single social issue for the past 200 years. Your fear of the unknown is pathetic.

Media don't pay attention to you not because of a unknown conspiracy but because there is nothing to pay attention to besides a bunch of scared old men desperately trying to hold on to a reality and privileges that young open minded educated critical minds are changing. It's all about politics and try to hold back just little longer the French revolution style storm that you know is coming to wipe away your tired unfair order of things.

Regarding you being offended, I have some words for you

"...at the end of the day in a free society people have to be free to offend each other. You cannot have freedom unless people are free to offend each other. We have no right not to be offended..." - Nick Clegg

So I could not care less of what offends you my freedom of speech comes first and besides if you are practicing Christian you should know that speaking against the pope offends "mother church". Ask Savonarola or New York Cardinal how that went for them. Church is not a democracy, you cannot just impeach the pope because he is a "illegal immigrant damned muslim communist". I know of many christians that would be very offended by your criticisms of the pope, he's Peter, god's voice on earth. Haven't you read the bible? Oh no right, conservatives only cherry pick it to prove their points. So looks like you are the first that is offensive toward your religion.

But please, let's go back in topic and reveal the truth to us mortals, you educated professor with several degrees in a variety of sciences:

WHO exactly is trying to destroy Western civilization and WHY? Names motives and links please, no Alex Jones.

Prove your claim that started all this conversation or go back to watch Fox News. Leave science to those that have the means to understand it.

[Nakajima]

This man is the first Pope who seems to put people before money in his church.

I am not Christian, but I admire him..he has balls and a heart!

So does a water-buffalo. The difference is that the water-buffalo can't produce Papal Bull.

Now they are bull because he goes against "god profit", but when the previous pope was encouraging homophobic misogynist ex-nazi world leaders, that was the god given true!

Jesus please, if you ever existed and should ever decide to come back, watch for conservatives because when you'll start talking against greed and money (their real gods), about feeding the poors, equality of all men, they will call you a black muslim communist socialist terrorist and send you to guantanamo. Hey, they still believe you were a white guy in northern Galilee region! That would have been a real miracle!

Edited January 21, 2015 by Nakajima

[RickBradford]

besides if you are practicing Christian you should know that speaking against the pope offends "mother church"

That applies to Catholics only. You demonstrate that you know as little about Christianity as you do about climate change, an impressive dual display of ignorance.

You probably should 'brag about your education' - Wednesday mornings always go better with a laugh to start with.

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed. Please stay on topic and refrain from making personal remarks directed at other members.

[Nakajima]

besides if you are practicing Christian you should know that speaking against the pope offends "mother church"

That applies to Catholics only. You demonstrate that you know as little about Christianity as you do about climate change, an impressive dual display of ignorance.

You probably should 'brag about your education' - Wednesday mornings always go better with a laugh to start with.

So because you are not catholic you feel is ok to insult their believes? But you feel offended by me speaking about jesus?

You are unable to prove your claims about a conspiracy to destroy western industrial system, therefore there is no reason to continue to talk.

This conversation is now over.

[canuckamuck]

Nakajima, you seem to be an angry person and full of insults. Did you know that is a sign of someone arguing from a position in which he has no confidence.

All I said was that there is no evidence that last century's warming (of less than a degree) cannot be discounted as part of the natural cycle. I say this not only because we are still recovering from an ice age, but also because the climate record shows many warming and cooling periods and we are currently at a low temperature - if you take the last 10,000 years as an average. In fact I would say it is unusually cool and any warming we are now experiencing is actually overdue. All of this is well documented and does not require any proving.

By the way you were correct about the correlation between CO2 and warming in the temperature record. But it is the other way around. The increase in CO2 lags behind the temperature increase by about 700 years. Indicating, that temperature increase drives the ocean to release more CO2. Oops, if temperature drives carbon, then how can carbon drive temperature. Head scratcher eh?

You have got to be kidding me right? You say it's unusual cool? I feel cold too tonight, well then you must be right! Yeah science works just like this.

You are really citing 'science' from The Institute for Creation Research http://www.icr.org/article/4128 and want me to answer you seriously?

You are coming discussing about science carrying the scientific "weight" of people that believe an invisible man created everything as it is few thousand years ago?

Then you wonder why I have to insult people like you?

Please go extinct like the dinosaurs Creationists believe existed not so long ago!

Mistake not, you will.

Here is where we are at the far right of the last 10,000 year's temperature record.

A chart without a reference link is of no value, you could have done that yourself of just downloaded from Fox News. Please link the source and then we'll discuss. That is how science works.

Yes I made that up by myself because I have nothing better to do than make fake scientific charts that can be easily proved false.

Or maybe it is actually the Greenland ice core record and the data is checkable.

But you know what, I will allow you another spastic, saliva bearing ejaculation of Occupy Now liberal love rants. Because you are so extraordinarily offensive and factless that I just need to see you do another round.

[Nakajima]

You have got to be kidding me right? You say it's unusual cool? I feel cold too tonight, well then you must be right! Yeah science works just like this.

You are really citing 'science' from The Institute for Creation Research http://www.icr.org/article/4128 and want me to answer you seriously?

You are coming discussing about science carrying the scientific "weight" of people that believe an invisible man created everything as it is few thousand years ago?

Then you wonder why I have to insult people like you?

Please go extinct like the dinosaurs Creationists believe existed not so long ago!

Mistake not, you will.

Here is where we are at the far right of the last 10,000 year's temperature record.

A chart without a reference link is of no value, you could have done that yourself of just downloaded from Fox News. Please link the source and then we'll discuss. That is how science works.

Yes I made that up by myself because I have nothing better to do than make fake scientific charts that can be easily proved false.

Or maybe it is actually the Greenland ice core record and the data is checkable.

But you know what, I will allow you another spastic, saliva bearing ejaculation of Occupy Now liberal love rants. Because you are so extraordinarily offensive and factless that I just need to see you do another round.

https://thecentristword.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/fake-economic-charts-going-viral-on-right-wing-blogs/

https://imgflip.com/piemaker

http://sporkforge.com/misc/fake_graph.php

maybe if you lived in this century you'd know.

[canuckamuck]

You are becoming less interesting now. The graph is from Dr. Don J. Easterbrook, PhD professor Emeritus of Geology, Western Washington University.

I no longer have the link to the where the graph was posted as shown because I pulled that particular image from my own archive and can't remember from which site it came. But I am willing to bet if Al Gore himself had signed it and it had an IPCC letterhead, you would find some way to blame it on the persecutors of Galileo or some other ridiculous straw man from your vast collection.

Anyhow you haven't presented a scintilla of evidence to falsify my claim that there is no evidence of unusual warming. I would say it is your turn to provide some alternate evidence, and not just ad hominine attacks.

[Nakajima]

You are becoming less interesting now. The graph is from Dr. Don J. Easterbrook, PhD professor Emeritus of Geology, Western Washington University.

I no longer have the link to the where the graph was posted as shown because I pulled that particular image from my own archive and can't remember from which site it came. But I am willing to bet if Al Gore himself had signed it and it had an IPCC letterhead, you would find some way to blame it on the persecutors of Galileo or some other ridiculous straw man from your vast collection.

Anyhow you haven't presented a scintilla of evidence to falsify my claim that there is no evidence of unusual warming. I would say it is your turn to provide some alternate evidence, and not just ad hominine attacks.

Yes I got it, it took about 2 seconds of Google.

I actually presented evidence from NASA and and other sources in one of my previous posts, one of the first. Now I am at the gym and then swimming and jogging I don't have time to search it again for you. If finding the post is really too hard I can re post it tomorrow.

But I am not here to prove anything to anybody. I am not a climatologist and my degrees have nothing to do with any science that would be even close to make me able to understand global warming.

The discussion started because someone decided he knew it all so he could claim that there is no global warming and claimed a conspiracy among world scientists to destroy western civilization. I called BS on that sentence. When asked directly who and why was exactly paying for the destruction of our civilization, nobody could reply. That is conspiracy theories, lowest kind politic of fear and has nothing to do with rational facts.

We can continue to exchange links back and forward all day and night, fact is that there are competent scientists that can and will talk about this matter, which by the way have been accepted by most civilized countries with few exception that, strangely, are also oil producers or have huge interests in fossil fuel market, but we are not them.

Unless any of you can show some credentials it is really pointless that we keep posting evidence we are not qualified to discuss. That is not the scientific method I was trained at.

Just don't mix science with the politic of conspiracy because that kind of stupidity is really enraging.

Then, if you do have evidence that there is a conspiracy, by all mean, please, present them.

Just let's get a few things straight, if you post a concept, prove it with a linked reference or citation like it's required to do when you write on the wikipedia, obviously, from someone who is somehow independent and not on some private corporation payroll. It would also be very useful if you remember than one single scientist's opinion doesn't proof anything. Not even 10. It all depends from consensus among majority of competent researchers.

Tonight I really don't have time to further discuss anything.

[RickBradford]

I am not a climatologist and my degrees have nothing to do with any science that would be even close to make me able to understand global warming.

That much was obvious several days ago.

Just let's get a few things straight, if you post a concept, prove it with a linked reference or citation like it's required to do when you write on the wikipedia, obviously, from someone who is somehow independent and not on some private corporation payroll

Tell me, who put you in charge of this forum?

[canuckamuck]

I don't get the current PC diatribes against conspiracy theories. The entire history of man is nothing but conspiracy after conspiracy. Has it somehow become impossible now that humans can still be greedy, power hungry, corrupt. Is it now impossible in this age, that men may be less than transparent with the facts when cash and promotions are on the line. Has working in a scientific field somehow become synonymous with infallible ethics. Maybe we should check with big pharma, tobacco industry, and multinationals like Monsanto. They have more than a few highly credited scientists on the payroll. Have any of them ever misled the public for financial gain or career advancement? Nah couldn't happen.

Put plainly, there could never be agendas in climate science. it's all about humanity and mother Earth. Just ignore the 1 billion dollars spent daily by national governments , just ignore the potential of governments being able to tax the very air we breathe, and ignore the move towards international governmental controls. None of these things will sway even a dot or tittle from any scientific paper linked to climate change. And all the unemployed grad students will bask in their self righteousness knowing they have done the right thing.

[RickBradford]

^^^

I don't think many serious climate skeptics believe in any organized 'conspiracy' over climate matters, despite shrill activist claims to the contrary.

For a start, the heavyweight NGOs, activists and politicians are way too clueless to run anything like a serious conspiracy. Most of them couldn't organize a two-car funeral.

After all, they've had 25 years and spent hundreds of billions of dollars trying to prove their case, and have still come up with a big zero. If it is a conspiracy, it's the worst one since Guy Fawkes launched his damp squib.

Having said that, climate activism is a natural gathering place for many people with broadly aligned, simplistic views.

Climate 'science' has always started at the desired solution (hobble 'development' and the 'evil capitalists') and then worked backwards via a connection ('evil capitalists belch CO2') to a suggestion ('world destroyed by CO2'). Add a layer of moralising, co-opt the press plus some useful idiots, and you're good to go.

It's part of the price we pay for living in an age where we're rich enough to be able to afford to entertain stupid ideas.

[canuckamuck]

For this type of conspiracy to develop you don't necessarily need a game plan or management. you simply need coincidental goals. or symbiotic conspiracies living off of each other.

Socialists want to fight the establishment, governments want more taxes, bureaucrats want more bureaucracy, scientists want more funding, and the multinationals want to keep the third world (work force and resources) desperate.

AGW provides a brilliant buffet table if you don't mind a bit of hocus pocus statistics and some strange bedfellows.

[RickBradford]

Yes, your view of the word 'conspiracy' is much closer to the core Latin meaning ('ot breathe together') than mine, which is more along the lines of an organised plot such as 'the Watergate conspiracy'.

It's because every dim-bulb alarmist accuses skeptics of pushing conspiracy theories that I avoid the word -- 'an alignment of interests' is as far as I'll commit myself.

And, agreed, AGW is the perfect storm for every "progressive" dimwit from activists to journalists to parade their noble credentials, and they certainly don't mind hocus-pocus statistics or outright deception in the name of the "cause".

[RickBradford]

Another interesting aspect to the conspiracy meme is that while skeptics rarely claim that there is a 'climate conspiracy', Alarmists always act as if they had claimed it.

It's straight out of the usual Green/Left playbook which states: Never, never, debate the core issue; instead, attack the other side's motives and competence.

So you never see the Alarmists debating your actual argument (in fact they fall over backwards to deny that you even have an argument).

Instead they attack your motives (you are paid by Big Oil, you are an evil Capitalist, you are a Conservative) or your competence (you are stupid and uneducated, a nutjob, mentally ill, fixated, and a Conservative etc etc). One only needs to look back over this thread to add substantially to this list.

If that doesn't work, they try to bore you into submission with long, windy speeches, endless climate meetings with thousands of pages of rehashed reports.

If there’s one thing you can count on in a Alarmist, it’s that he never lets his failures hold him back.

[Nakajima]

Look, believe whatever you want:

believe that there is an organized plot of scientists instead than corporations that have billions to lose from climate science. Bring one man opinions against a whole scientific community.

You are a marginalized minority and I am done wasting my time with people that claim to know everything, tell other that spent years studying they are uneducated while you don't even grasp the basic of science, have no credential and probably never saw the inside of a university. Hell no, education is poison to conservatives! Who needs schools when you have Palin / Beckham opinions?

I only discuss with people that support claims with documented evidence and you cannot even manage to use Google to find the source of your graphs.

We are going to make the world a better place while you simply fade away.

You don't deserve any intelligent person time with your undocumented claims, certainly not mine.

[RickBradford]

^^^

Thank you for this prompt and near-perfect example of what I was talking about above. I could hardly have written it worse myself if I was trying.

"Conservative" (check), stupid (check), anti-education (check, I forgot that one before), conspiracy claim (check), uneducated (check), unqualified (check) .

[canuckamuck]

Yes Nakajima you are making the world a better place - by clearly demonstrating the strength of the alarmist position. House of cards comes to mind.

[Scott]

I strongly suggest that you keep the discussion civil. Inflammatory posts will result in warnings and suspensions.