Why the Muslim 'no-go-zone' myth won't die

[JockPieandBeans]

Here is another myth for the resident apologists to try and debunk.

Although Illegal in both the UK and Pakistan.

Sana, 19, from the Midlands, was brought to Pakistan last summer, and told she could go to university here.

But instead she heard her parents planning to marry her to a man she didn't even know. And when she refused, her father physically abused her.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30923981

Early and forced marriage statistics 1 in 3 girls in the developing world are married by their 18th birthday. This can end their chance of completing an education and puts them at greater risk of isolation and violence.

For girls under 15 the incidence of early and forced marriage is 1 in 9. Some are married as young as five years old. Victims of early and forced marriage typically have children very young. Approximately 70,000 girls die in labour every year because their bodies aren’t ready for childbirth. - See more at:

Karma Nirvana is a charity that has been instrumental in developing refuge centres across the UK for men and women fleeing forced marriages. The helpline offers advice, information and support.

http://www.plan-uk.org/because-i-am-a-girl/about-because-i-am-a-girl/violence-against-girls/early-and-forced-marriage

A UK charity. Because this sh!t doesn't happen in the UK. Its ALL a myth.

Edited January 26, 2015 by JockPieandBeans

[SoiBiker]

Never mind the myth, I'm starting to think that this thread just won't die.

[JockPieandBeans]

Never mind the myth, I'm starting to think that this thread just won't die.

Does the truth die ?

Try this one. Again illegal in the UK.

However.

NHS figures show 467 newly identified cases of girls and women needing treatment after female genital mutilation in England last month.

In 1 Month ! Staggering.

It shows the crime is happening in all regions in England although half of the cases were in London.

In July, a group of MPs said failing to tackle FGM was a "national scandal" and blamed a "misplaced concern for cultural sensitivities" for inaction.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29642997

National scandal ! No sh!t Sherlock.

[Steely Dan]

Never mind the myth, I'm starting to think that this thread just won't die.

Does the truth die ?

Try this one. Again illegal in the UK.

However.

NHS figures show 467 newly identified cases of girls and women needing treatment after female genital mutilation in England last month.

In 1 Month ! Staggering.

It shows the crime is happening in all regions in England although half of the cases were in London.

In July, a group of MPs said failing to tackle FGM was a "national scandal" and blamed a "misplaced concern for cultural sensitivities" for inaction.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29642997

National scandal ! No sh!t Sherlock.

The amount of unnecessary human suffering is incredible, and for what? To accommodate the culture and ideology of the savage.

[Steely Dan]

Latest news, 49 Filipino police killed entering a mythical no go zone.

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2015/01/27/1417217/iqbal-justifies-attack-toll-soars-49

[phrodan]

Latest news, 49 Filipino police killed entering a mythical no go zone.

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2015/01/27/1417217/iqbal-justifies-attack-toll-soars-49

In which part of Yorkshire are the Philippines?

[Mosha]

Latest news, 49 Filipino police killed entering a mythical no go zone.

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2015/01/27/1417217/iqbal-justifies-attack-toll-soars-49

In which part of Yorkshire are the Philippines?

Read the OP. It's not just about the UK

[Scott]

Posts removed. ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ABOUT MEMBERS OR THEIR STATUS WILL RESULT IN A SUSPENSION.

You are under no obligation to engage with other posters, you are under no obligation to discuss with other posters, you are free to post your opinion if you chose. Doing so is nothing but combative, argumentative and non-constructive.

Stick to the topic.

[Credo]

I've never heard of a no-go-zone in a reasonably well-developed country. I've heard of places that are best avoided, at least at night, but even these are not 'no-go-zones'.

From what I've read, those are the areas where people like Hugh Grant go to get hookers. And it seems like the police have no problem going into those areas.

[micmichd]

Taqiyya:

Extremely hard stuff if you read that you are told lies.

I am a liar, too, believe me or not

I'm perfect in lying when I write. Not so good in lying to readers that can read between the lines. And forced to be honest to humans that can watch my body movements and/or my eyes.

If you've ever traveled around Asia (especially in smaller towns) you might have noticed some specials that probably annoyed you because you're not used to it:

1. There are speakers in practically every street corner, and you don't only hear someone talking, they are also reciting the Quoran (or something else). In some countries you hear music, but usually you hear a specific rhythm added to the words, and this is the tonal version of what they really want to tell you. Qoran in Arabia, also poems (notably in Persia), sometimes sheer propaganda. Western politicians and showmasters do the same on TV.

2. Whenever you come to a village, all kinds of people will round you up, and they will look directly into your eyes. This might cut you like a knife, because it's considered aggressive in Western civilizations, and the "normal" (ie expected) reaction is that one of two turns down his eyes - like a dog. It's different in Asian countries. Holding direct eye (or voice) contact means you have nothing to hide, you don't try to hide anything, and therefore you can be trusted.

3. Whenever you look back (Westerns would maybe say 'stare back') into each other's eyes, you hold a communication. And that's also in the tonal version of Koran which is percepted by Muslims and so very hard to understand for Non-Muslims. Not only the printed version but also the 'meta' version with sounds added.

The voice of a Muezzin or the common prayers can be like music even in Westerners' ears, depending upon what you add to it in your cognitive scheme, but - of course - common prayers are not for Kaffirs, only if they stay outside, bend down and turn their eyes down.

Some Farangs here might fear they get stabbed in their backs when they 'surrender' to Islam. Those Farangs should probably better stay away.

It's a question of personality and religious belief, too. If you go to a Muslim area with the strong belief that your culture is superior to theirs, then in fact they might feel like kicking you in the a*se for your hypocrisy. And be sure: you would do the same in T he your Christian churches if you were treated by Moslem visitors like that. So, I would advise you to go inside Moslem areas if you're honest, but better keep away from the inner circles if you can't accept that your God and Allah are maybe not so very different. You only make up an artificial big big difference between two Abrahamistic religions, in order to keep up your cultural identity - your cultural face.

Edited January 27, 2015 by micmichd

[micmichd]

All mythical no-go zones are no-go zones for non-believers, believe it or not.

BTW: are you sure you mean 'mythical' - not 'mystical'?

[micmichd]

Myths (as social facts) just never die, because they survive independently of the people that spread them, even when those people are dead and reality might have changed.

Take witches for Christian Europe, or Jihad for Muslim Europe, or anything else as examples. Even the talk about the bar girl scene in Pattaya may turn out to be stronger than the (maybe changing) facts, and myths about them maybe turn out to be nothing but a link between society and individuals, spread out by small groups.

Edited January 27, 2015 by micmichd

[SiSePuede419]

Wahhabi "Muslims" who don't allow non-Muslims to enter their holy city of Mecca, are exactly like Mormon "Christians" who don't allow non-Mormons to enter their holy temples.

http://www.mormon.org/faq/purpose-of-temples

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Edited January 27, 2015 by SiSePuede419

[dragonfly94]

What about a real myth that will not die, that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, surely even an apologist would not claim this any longer?

[7by7]

Here is another myth for the resident apologists to try and debunk.

Although Illegal in both the UK and Pakistan.

Sana, 19, from the Midlands, was brought to Pakistan last summer, and told she could go to university here.[/size]

But instead she heard her parents planning to marry her to a man she didn't even know. And when she refused, her father physically abused her.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30923981

As you say, forced marriage is illegal in both the UK and Pakistan.

As for abuse, from the NSPCC:

• Over 90% of sexually abused children were abused by someone they knew.
• Over 2,700 children were identified as needing protection from sexual abuse last year.
• The NSPCC’s helpline responded to over 7,300 contacts about sexual abuse last year.
• Over 18,600 children and young people talked to ChildLine last year about sexual abuse.
• Over 23,000 sexual offences against children were recorded in the UK last year.

Are you seriously suggesting that all, or even the majority, of these cases were Muslim children abused by their Muslim parents, other relatives or Muslims known to them?

If so; evidence, please.

As for FGM; another abhorrent crime, and for far too long nothing was done in the UK about it; but that is changing.

But, as has been proven every time this subject has been raised, FGM is not a Muslim thing, it is a cultural thing.

Q&A on Female Genital Mutilation

9. Does any religion condone the practice of FGM?

FGM is practiced among some adherents of the Muslim, Christian, and Jewish faiths. FGM is also practiced among some animists, who believe in the existence of individual spirits and supernatural forces. It is erroneously linked to religion, is not particular to any religious faith, and predates Christianity and Islam. However, some adherents of these religions believe the practice is compulsory for followers of the religion. Because of this flawed link to various religions, and specifically to Islam, religious leaders have an important role to play in dissociating FGM from religion.

For example, while FGM is practiced in Egypt, which is predominantly Muslim, it is not practiced in many other countries with predominantly Muslim populations, such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. The association of FGM with Islam has been refuted by many Muslim scholars and theologians who say that FGM is not prescribed in the Quran and is contradictory to the teachings of Islam.

Edited January 27, 2015 by 7by7

[phrodan]

Latest news, 49 Filipino police killed entering a mythical no go zone.

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2015/01/27/1417217/iqbal-justifies-attack-toll-soars-49

In which part of Yorkshire are the Philippines?

Read the OP. It's not just about the UK

Now - that's twisting things just a little bit far, is it not? The OP refers to the "west," and then the "Daily Mail."

Lets for a moment look at the Philippines - invaded by the Spanish, subjected to concentration camps, forced religious doctrine, mass rape and other assorted humiliations. They fought for Independence - won, and were stripped of it a year later by that arch-driver of freedom, the good ole USA. Who then;

Subjected them to concentration camps, mass rape, and genocide for having the temerity to fight for their freedom from oppression and tyranny. Oh, the irony.

So - what next - oh, Muslims in the Philippines. There's been Muslims in the Philippines since way before the arrival of Christianity. No Johnny-come-lately guys here, seven hundred years of Islam - established before Columbus was was even a twinkle in his fathers eye. They have been at the forefront of the fight against the European, Japanese and American oppressors for years - defending their right to live in their homeland as they see fit. So to call it a "Muslim no-go." area is a bit of a stretch, old chap. These are a people seven hundred years in the making determined to repel the foreign devil, and his filthy religious teachings.

Carry on.

[7by7]

<snip>

There are always dissidents, of all faiths and politics, in any society who want to change that society to their way of thinking or beliefs; and in a free society they should be allowed to express their beliefs; as long as they remain within the law, of course.

But in the West, certainly as far as the UK is concerned, Muslims with this view are a very tiny, almost insignificant, minority; even though they get virtually all the press.

Perhaps you can give us some examples of restrictions applied to the majority in any non Muslim country in order to accommodate the sensitivities of the Muslim minority?

<snip>

Oh, back with the tiny minority bit. Fine. For starters, this alleged "very tiny, almost insignificant, minority" has a strange way of not going anywhere. Seems like all the claimed indignation, condemnation and whatnotation does not effect it one bit. The fact remains that these voices aren't getting weaker as time goes by, perhaps the opposite? And as for them hogging the media attention - perhaps if the assumed majority of the community would do something a wee more proactive, rather than issuing the usual damage control denunciations, both phenomenons will decrease.

Unless draconian measures are brought in restricting freedom of speech, measures which will effect us all, then dissident voices are not going away.

But if those voices go outside the law, they are dealt with according to the law: for example Abu Hamza, who in 2006 was sentenced by a UK court to 7 years imprisonment for inciting violence and racial hatred.

Of course these radical voices are going to attract most, if not all, of the media attention. The headline "Muslim does not express extremist views" aint going to sell many papers!

Representatives of the Muslim population, such as the Muslim Council of Britain, do regularly issue statements and press releases condemning hate speech by extremists; that the press choose not to publish them is not the MCB's fault.

What do you mean by doing something 'a wee more proactive?'

Things like this, perhaps?

As for ways in which the majority accommodates the minority? Halal food would be an obvious example, avoiding publishing the Charlie Hebdo cartoons after the attack would be another. The attack itself, in my opinion, is the prime example of how things will pan if a line isn't drawn and strictly adhered to. As you do not accept the existence of areas mostly populated by Muslims being less than welcoming for non-believers, do not accept that persistent calls for Sharia law replacing the law of the land are an issue, and do not accept that PC talk trying hard to avoid making any connection between religions and actions taken in its name - it would be very hard to carry a meaningful exchange regarding "examples".

In what way is Halal food accommodating the minority?

In the same way that Kosher food, and Shechita slaughter, which has been available in the UK for far longer than Halal, accommodates the Jewish minority.

If you ban one, it would be hypocrisy on a grand scale not to ban the other.

But, you may say, people are being forced to buy Halal meat!

By whom? Like Kosher food, Halal food is clearly labelled; otherwise it's target market wouldn't buy it!

There was a long discussion on Halal in this topic, so I wont go into great detail here.

But; pre slaughter stunning is allowed under both Halal and Shechita; provided the animals heart is not stopped. This is the dispensation which is asked for and granted under EU law; that the stun does not kill the animal, but renders it unconscious.

Information from the UK's Food Standard Agency shows that in the UK 88% of animals slaughtered by Halal methods are pre stunned, but only 10% of animals slaughtered by Shechita are.

Other information shows that in many situations, the hindquarters of an animal slaughtered by Schechita is considered not to be Kosher and sold on to supermarkets etc. So a non Muslim or non Jewish British shopper is far more likely to unknowingly buy Shechita slaughtered meat than Halal, and that Shechita meat is far more likely to have not been pre stunned than any Halal meat they may buy.

Relevant links can be found in the topic linked to.

Not publishing Charlie Hebdo cartoons after the attack?

Many media outlets in many country did so.

The attack itself, and following ones, were, rightly, condemned by leading Muslims, Muslim representatives and ordinary Muslims. Even though many said they found the cartoons themselves offensive they also said that was no excuse for murder.

As for the rest of your post; I have made my position clear on those points, and provided reputable evidence to back up that position. If you wish to challenge that, do so. But saying "it would be very hard to carry a meaningful exchange regarding "examples"." is, I'm sorry to say, a cop out.

If examples exist, if evidence exists to counter my views; provide it.

Edited January 27, 2015 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

7 by7 is incorrect in stating Halal meat is clearly labeled in the UK supermarkets.

It is not.

Why is feeding the 4.8% so important when the 95%+ require conventional meat given a choice.

Most people want to buy meat, killed in the traditional way without any rituals or religious mumbo jumbo.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

Mr Sata, I suggest you go and look at the Halal section the next time you visit Sainsbury's, Tesco's, Morrison's etc!

Though I grant you, in an area with a small or non existent Muslim population, there probably wont be one.

If the meat was not labelled as Halal, many Muslims wouldn't buy it!

The traditional way of killing meat in non Muslim countries did not involve pre stunning or other methods these days considered humane; the animals throat was cut while the animal was conscious!

Pre stunning etc. is a relatively modern thing; in most European countries humane slaughter did not become law until the 1950s.

Even so, it doesn't always work!

The 'Humane Slaughter' Myth (Warning; following this link will take you to a video many may find distressing.)

[JockPieandBeans]

7x7

I have just seen your PM and for obvious reasons I will not respond by PM. All I will say on your PM is that I did not see it, and the reason for it being deleted is nothing to do with me. Take that up with whatever MOD deleted it.

As you say, forced marriage is illegal in both the UK and Pakistan.

Yes it is. However, that does not stop it happening, does it ? I do not think I need to post link after link on the subject, it is there for all to read should they so desire.

As for abuse, from the NSPCC:

• Over 90% of sexually abused children were abused by someone they knew.
• Over 2,700 children were identified as needing protection from sexual abuse last year.
• The NSPCC’s helpline responded to over 7,300 contacts about sexual abuse last year.
• Over 18,600 children and young people talked to ChildLine last year about sexual abuse.
• Over 23,000 sexual offences against children were recorded in the UK last year.

Are you seriously suggesting that all, or even the majority, of these cases were Muslim children abused by their Muslim parents, other relatives or Muslims known to them?

I did not mention abuse. I specifically mentioned forced marriages and FGM. So I have to wonder why you felt the need to throw this into your reply. It would not have been an attempt at deflection would it ?

But as you were kind enough to impart the above knowledge, it might have been a good idea to to try and obtain a breakdown of perpetrators if you are going to try and use it as argument. Otherwise it means nothing.

As for FGM; another abhorrent crime, and for far too long nothing was done in the UK about it; but that is changing.

Changing ? 1 conviction for FGM in the UK.

NHS figures show 467 newly identified cases of girls and women needing treatment after female genital mutilation in England last month.

By my reckoning that should have been at least another 467 convictions getting closer to 934 if it was 2 parent families. So please dont try to tell me that things are changing. It is not.

I suggest that you read this.

http://www.equalitynow.org/sites/default/files/FGM%20EN%20City%20Estimates.pdf

It shows quite clearly that is a cultural thing, Muslim culture. Although there are a very small % of other nutjobs that practice it.

[phrodan]

There's no denying that the village culture still has a strong grip on a lot of these people. The sooner that it becomes socially unacceptable the better. Jailing all of them won't work - you'll drive it underground and you'll end up with young girls and women dying because their parents won't allow them to be treated at hospital. A bit like the back-street abortion clinics of yesteryear.

Naturally you had thought of that, pieman.

[H1w4yR1da]

So - what next - oh, Muslims in the Philippines. There's been Muslims in the Philippines since way before the arrival of Christianity. No Johnny-come-lately guys here, seven hundred years of Islam - established before Columbus was was even a twinkle in his fathers eye. They have been at the forefront of the fight against the European, Japanese and American oppressors for years - defending their right to live in their homeland as they see fit. So to call it a "Muslim no-go." area is a bit of a stretch, old chap. These are a people seven hundred years in the making determined to repel the foreign devil, and his filthy religious teachings.

Carry on.

Right! So that's why they just killed 43 Filipino police officers.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/01/26/police_killed_in_philippines_moro_islamic_liberation_front_in_bloody_firefight.html

They've been terrorising the region for years with murders and kidnappings and all you can prattle on about is how heroic they are.

Of course it's a Muslim no-go area.

[phrodan]

So - what next - oh, Muslims in the Philippines. There's been Muslims in the Philippines since way before the arrival of Christianity. No Johnny-come-lately guys here, seven hundred years of Islam - established before Columbus was was even a twinkle in his fathers eye. They have been at the forefront of the fight against the European, Japanese and American oppressors for years - defending their right to live in their homeland as they see fit. So to call it a "Muslim no-go." area is a bit of a stretch, old chap. These are a people seven hundred years in the making determined to repel the foreign devil, and his filthy religious teachings.

Carry on.

Right! So that's why they just killed 43 Filipino police officers.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/01/26/police_killed_in_philippines_moro_islamic_liberation_front_in_bloody_firefight.html

They've been terrorising the region for years with murders and kidnappings and all you can prattle on about is how heroic they are.

Of course it's a Muslim no-go area.

I merely pointed out that the Muslim community in that country is long established, and has battled for years against religious and foreign oppression.

Try and not be so selective in your quotes, old chap - you completely eradicated the bitter truth about the colonial oppression of the Spanish and USA.

[JockPieandBeans]

There's no denying that the village culture still has a strong grip on a lot of these people. The sooner that it becomes socially unacceptable the better. Jailing all of them won't work - you'll drive it underground and you'll end up with young girls and women dying because their parents won't allow them to be treated at hospital. A bit like the back-street abortion clinics of yesteryear.

Naturally you had thought of that, pieman.

Then a lot of these people, as you refer to them. Can go back to their villages and practice whatever barbarity they want.

Do you really think that woman and young children are not already dying because of this barbarity ?

Try educating yourself.

Phrodan ? Are you a Muslim from the Balkans by any chance ?

[7by7]

JPB;

You did mention abuse by the girls father; read your post again.

Prosecutions for FGM in the UK have been lamentably low; I have never denied that. But how many of the cases in that report you linked to did the mutilation occur outside the UK.

According to that report; most of them!

You really should have read the report before linking to it.

From page 7

In some societies, the practice is embedded in coming-of-age rituals which are considered
necessary for girls to become adult and responsible members of the society. It is believed to be a
religious requirement by some Muslim populations who practise FGM although FGM is not
mentioned in the Koran and most Muslims in the world do not know about FGM. Moreover, in
communities where FGM is a social norm, it is practised by Muslims, Christians and followers of
indigenous religions which suggest that the practice is more cultural than a religious practice.

[H1w4yR1da]

Try and not be so selective in your quotes, old chap - you completely eradicated the bitter truth about the colonial oppression of the Spanish and USA.

Maybe best to stick to relevant current day events as you apologists just love to bring up centuries old events to excuse muslim atrocities. Edited January 27, 2015 by H1w4yR1da

[H1w4yR1da]

FGM is not mentioned in the Koran

Neither apparently, is women having to cover themselves completely but they still do it.

Usual deflection BS.

[7by7]

Another cultural thing, practised by some but by no means all Muslim women.

Usual Islamaphobe ignoring of facts which don't suit your prejudice.

Edited January 27, 2015 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

Mr Sata, I suggest you go and look at the Halal section the next time you visit Sainsbury's, Tesco's, Morrison's etc!

Though I grant you, in an area with a small or non existent Muslim population, there probably wont be one.

If the meat was not labelled as Halal, many Muslims wouldn't buy it!

The traditional way of killing meat in non Muslim countries did not involve pre stunning or other methods these days considered humane; the animals throat was cut while the animal was conscious!

Pre stunning etc. is a relatively modern thing; in most European countries humane slaughter did not become law until the 1950s.

Even so, it doesn't always work!

The 'Humane Slaughter' Myth (Warning; following this link will take you to a video many may find distressing.)

I live in East Anglia which granted still seems like the England I grew up in with no mosques etc.

However you are incorrect re labeling. Most of what we now consume in the UK is halal without any choice on the part of the consumer.

The five leading supermarkets say that some of the meat they sell could qualify as halal but is not labelled as such. For that read most.

Marks and Spencer, Tesco, Waitrose, Morrisons and the Co-op said their New Zealand lamb was halal, while Pizza Express had already revealed its chicken is killed according to Islamic tradition.

The supermarkets said the animals were stunned before being killed and the only difference from standard meat was that they were blessed as they are killed.

Source BBC.

The problem is that slaughtering chicken etc in specialist halal units would not be economic so we all have to eat it. The NHS and all UK schools only serve Halal. There is no choice for parents.

I am an aethiast and do not want my meat have a load of mumbo jumbo read from some fairy book as it is killed.

By all means let people buy and eat what they want but not force the majority of us to follow these rituals.

Just be warned. If you eat New Zealand lamb it is halal.

Large amounts of halal-slaughtered New Zealand lamb is being sold on UK shelves, but industry figures dismissed the uproar as sensationalist. Craig Finch, Beef + Lamb New Zealand regional manager, tells MTJ: All our halal meat is processed to the same standards as non-halal meat. All of our animals must be stunned prior to slaughter the only difference is we have Muslim slaughtermen who say a quick prayer. The processes are absolutely identical. There is also no difference in animal welfare.

- See more at: http://www.meatinfo.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/17243/Halal_feature:_Labelling_under_the_spotlight.html#.dpuf

Edited January 27, 2015 by Jay Sata

[Ulysses G.]

Maybe best to stick to relevant current day events as you apologists just love to bring up centuries old events to excuse muslim atrocities.

Ain't THAT the truth!