17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[Equalizer]

If i sold second hand goods on Thai visa's classified adds and made a few quid profit would i be working and be an idiot? You should maybe try to understand the gravity of what you are saying, You need a work permit when you are financially tied to Thailand, work in Thailand's economy, your INCOME is inland. Not when money is OUTLAND and Thailand is not involved in any capacity whatsoever.

The gravity ?

What has what selling stuff on Thaivisa classified ads got to do with working for a company in Thailand ?

Is what you say is within the terms of your tourist or retirement visa or not ?

So if you sold goods on Thaivisa in Thailand your money wouldn't be in Thailand ?

Well come on then, what exactly are the terms on your visa? DOL has rules and as the main Thai immigration official has said there is a gray area in the law for people who use computers at home. FACT. When i gave the example of selling goods on Thai visa it was part of my scenario. I was using an example of a person who is sitting in his Thai holiday home overseeing a business interest in another country that has no connection with Thailand whatsoever, nothing bought in Thailand, nothing sold in Thailand, no Thai people involved. I said that someone who sells stuff on Thai visa to make a few quid is more involved financially with Thailand than some people who use computers to oversee their interests.

[Equalizer]

An off topic post has been removed.

Was my post removed?

[jspill]

OK will accept what your saying if you can quote me the section in the labour act which refers to this,

Fact where you earn your money or even if you earn money has absolutely no bearing on whether your working in Thailand or not, further if in the example you refer to a official from the DOL says your working, your working it is that simple

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf

Section 7 it talks about 'career opportunities of Thai people' and 'national development' implying that requirements stipulated upon alien work are done so when it involves something that might take away jobs from Thai people or directly affect Thailand by way of the work's physical presence

Section 8 it refers to limiting the number of 'craftsmen' doing 'works in the Kingdom' and refers to those who 'employ' aliens under contract

Section 9 refers to the restricted jobs list which again is stuff like unskilled craftsmen, manual laborers, not people with amazon affiliate blogs and adsense sites lol

Sections 15-20 again refers to aliens being 'employees' of a Thai 'employer', and said entity deducting part of the alien's 'wages' towards a repatriation fund, implying 'work' entails being paid in Baht

Not one instance of the word 'online' or 'offshore' on any of the 15 pages. Lots of instances of 'Baht'

Persona non grata in Thailand are defined as those who enter the Kingdom to take up employment as laborers or practice other forms of manual work that require no special skill or training' http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html

It's common sense that the alien labor act doesn't apply to someone being paid USD in paypal for their ebook sales and them transferring that offshore sourced money into Thailand to spend and support their lifestyle. In fact you're also persona non grata if you have 'no appropriate means of living once in the Kingdom' (category 2 on the above link')

So I would challenge you in turn to quote me the section in the labor act that specifically says remote telecommuting untied to Thailand in any capacity is unlawful just because I happen to do it from a condo in Bangkok.

Edit: I'm aware the guys in the OP were not doing remote telecommuting, they were being paid in Baht by a shady Thai company, and got caught up in that. Someone already posted they've been released with a small fine and slap on the wrist.

[arthurwait]

If i sold second hand goods on Thai visa's classified adds and made a few quid profit would i be working and be an idiot? You should maybe try to understand the gravity of what you are saying, You need a work permit when you are financially tied to Thailand, work in Thailand's economy, your INCOME is inland. Not when money is OUTLAND and Thailand is not involved in any capacity whatsoever.

The gravity ?

What has what selling stuff on Thaivisa classified ads got to do with working for a company in Thailand ?

Is what you say is within the terms of your tourist or retirement visa or not ?

So if you sold goods on Thaivisa in Thailand your money wouldn't be in Thailand ?

Well come on then, what exactly are the terms on your visa? DOL has rules and as the main Thai immigration official has said there is a gray area in the law for people who use computers at home. FACT. When i gave the example of selling goods on Thai visa it was part of my scenario. I was using an example of a person who is sitting in his Thai holiday home overseeing a business interest in another country that has no connection with Thailand whatsoever, nothing bought in Thailand, nothing sold in Thailand, no Thai people involved. I said that someone who sells stuff on Thai visa to make a few quid is more involved financially with Thailand than some people who use computers to oversee their interests.

I don't have a tourist or retirement visa.

But here is one, the last line is quite clear.

Ah yes one official who said it's a grey area, that overrides all the laws.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Fact where you earn your money or even if you earn money has absolutely no bearing on whether your working in Thailand or not, further if in the example you refer to a official from the DOL says your working, your working it is that simple

It's not, the DOL are not judge, jury and executioner.

If a judge rules that you are working, then you are working. The DOL can certainly send you up in front of one on the basis that they believe you are working, but that is not the same thing.

Not that I can find any example of anybody, ever, anywhere in the world that has ended up in front of one for a case regarding breach of either employment or visa legislation for being paid offshore by other offshore entities. Prosecution under Tax legislation would be a different matter, but that's a separate issue.

[rwdrwdrwd]

If i sold second hand goods on Thai visa's classified adds and made a few quid profit would i be working and be an idiot? You should maybe try to understand the gravity of what you are saying, You need a work permit when you are financially tied to Thailand, work in Thailand's economy, your INCOME is inland. Not when money is OUTLAND and Thailand is not involved in any capacity whatsoever.

The gravity ?

What has what selling stuff on Thaivisa classified ads got to do with working for a company in Thailand ?

Is what you say is within the terms of your tourist or retirement visa or not ?

So if you sold goods on Thaivisa in Thailand your money wouldn't be in Thailand ?

Well come on then, what exactly are the terms on your visa? DOL has rules and as the main Thai immigration official has said there is a gray area in the law for people who use computers at home. FACT. When i gave the example of selling goods on Thai visa it was part of my scenario. I was using an example of a person who is sitting in his Thai holiday home overseeing a business interest in another country that has no connection with Thailand whatsoever, nothing bought in Thailand, nothing sold in Thailand, no Thai people involved. I said that someone who sells stuff on Thai visa to make a few quid is more involved financially with Thailand than some people who use computers to oversee their interests.

I don't have a tourist or retirement visa.

But here is one, the last line is quite clear.

[GIANT IMAGE REMOVED]

Ah yes one official who said it's a grey area, that overrides all the laws.

That says 'Employment' - are you claiming that people who are employed anywhere in the world are not allowed to enter as a Tourist? Not going to contribute to the drive for the 'quality tourist', is it?

Whilst I'm all ears in regard to hearing about any examples of visitors to Thailand being prosecuted for being employed somewhere else in the world, in lieu of any, the obvious conclusion is that the 'Employment Prohibited' note on Tourist Visas simply refers to 'Employment in Thailand' - that is to say, employment by a Thai company.

[arthurwait]

[micmichd]

Maybe 'employment', 'work', and 'business' are 3 different things. We had this in Germany several years ago when they started to force freelancers into their social security system, including self-employed IT freelancers that were urgently needed. It turned out to be a disaster because they failed clear definitions, and for some years no one could really be sure if an IT freelancer was a worke or a businessman, especially under the German speciality to be over-perfect. Additionally, social security systems used the word 'employment' which was redefined, so now 'informal labour' (the self-deployed) was covered, too. German labour laws had a different definition, 'labour' covered only these under a labour contract, so freelancers were 'employed' for the social security system and businessmen for the labour system.

I'm afraid Thailand is running into the same grey zone unless the legal state of IT freelancers is defined, where 'defined' today probably means 'fit for computer-based decision making'. This is one thing I guess Thailand could learn from Germany: NOT to repeat their mistakes.

[thaibeachlovers]

Maybe 'employment', 'work', and 'business' are 3 different things. We had this in Germany several years ago when they started to force freelancers into their social security system, including self-employed IT freelancers that were urgently needed. It turned out to be a disaster because they failed clear definitions, and for some years no one could really be sure if an IT freelancer was a worke or a businessman, especially under the German speciality to be over-perfect. Additionally, social security systems used the word 'employment' which was redefined, so now 'informal labour' (the self-deployed) was covered, too. German labour laws had a different definition, 'labour' covered only these under a labour contract, so freelancers were 'employed' for the social security system and businessmen for the labour system.

I'm afraid Thailand is running into the same grey zone unless the legal state of IT freelancers is defined, where 'defined' today probably means 'fit for computer-based decision making'. This is one thing I guess Thailand could learn from Germany: NOT to repeat their mistakes.

It would be a first then, if they did learn from another countries mistakes. My home country makes a habit of copying other countries mistakes..

[beb]

vagabondinglife, on 24 Jan 2015 - 00:48, said:

I am very close to one of the teachers, and unsurprisingly, the Bangkok Post got this -completely- wrong.

My friend had a perfectly legal work permit, as did many other teachers. The article points the finger at the foreign teachers as criminal culprits. The company was at fault, promising legal work and then deliberately dragging feet when it came to sorting out the permit paperwork and expense.

The foreigners are not being held. They were released the next morning after a photoshoot with press. This was obviously just a publicity stunt, and of course, lots of 'fines' were paid. Each teacher was even asked for a US $100 'service charge' for such nice treatment in jail.

I don't get this, had the company got your friend and he others work permits or not ?

If the company weren't getting work permits how come your friend had one ?

I don't know the details of this particular situation but do know about the realities of working here. the Work visa process is not a simple affair (laughable that some here seem to think it must be as if anything in Thailand is) and involves a trip out of the country for application for the visa and then a wait for the permit to be issued. And that wait can be long. Months.

I've seen people in a very legit situation in which they were waiting months after making their trip. And they were waiting for the school to provide the permit. The school handles the processing.

If you're complaining that these employees didn't do what is required then you probably don't understand how things work in the real working world for expats. People work without work permits in hand as they wait for the processing. And they depend on their employer to get all the processing taken care of.

All of the paperwork is in Thai and practically impossible for a Farang to understand. In fact, it's not easy for Thais. I met a guy in Laos who was on his second attempt at getting a work visa. His first trip was a bust because his employer failed to provide all the necessary documents. And believe it or not, the same thing happened to him again on this trip. When we said our goodbyes, he was on his way back home with plans for a 3rd trip to attempt to get a work visa.

I'm not saying any of is the case in this situation because i just don't know enough to pretend to have an opinion. But I do know that a lot of assumptions here are simply wrong.

I've had a work permit here for the last 6 years so yes I do understand how it works like having a receipt for your work permit application so where was theirs ?

Anyway back to the actual point....

As said where was their work permit application receipt ?

The poster said his friend had a work permit but the company were dragging their heals, so were they applying for work permits or not ?

Had they applied for the maximum amount the could in relation to Thais employed, capital investment ?

Were the work permits of these people who are said to have work permits applied for by this company or were people thinking they could work for this company on another companies/schools work permit ?

If some people at the company had genuine work permits why did they not tell the workers without that they were working illegally or did they and the workers who have supposedly been led astray by the company not care ?

I think you're going to have to go down to the police station to get all those questions answered.

[micmichd]

I guess the police won't say a word unless you take your friend with you, they should know by now that suspects also have a right for privacy.

[ColdSingha]

If you make money from inside your own home on line and you do nothing apart from pay for the connection, have no Thai's involved, sell nothing in Thailand, Buy nothing in Thailand, and the money is outland revenue, you are not in the same class as working in Thailand. You are working in cyber space. Petty and typical of Thailand to take this immature stance. Hopefully a court may look at this in a sympathetic way and realize that these people are not ticking all the prosecution boxes in the strict wording of the law for them to be convicted of any crime. Personal computers and what you do with them in the privacy of your own home financially should not classed as working as long as Thailand is in no way involved. I can put a classified add on Thai visa, sell a TV to a reader and make a few baht profit. Am i working illegally? This is actually worse than what these people have done because i have bought a product in Thailand and sold it in Thailand and made money.

technically writing the above (and this) post was providing content to a professional website. as Thailand does not differentiate between paid and non-paid "work" this would be no different to their guys writing articles for their tech site. Thaivisa then take your content and wrap it with adverts to make money

do you have a work permit for this???! or for posting to Facebook, Twitter or heaven forbid.. your own site?

thought not, laws can be silly when wrote so vague

[PaulHamon]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

OK, not harming anyone.

So if I open a company that offers the same service but pay 50.000 / month , work permits, social , taxes.

Then this company turns up with the same service but does it illegally and can therefor undercut me, they are not harming anyone?

Your undercutting idea is kind of valid...

but since anyone anywhere in the world can undercut you..... do the local laws really matter in this case.

[PaulHamon]

I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

Not contributing to Thai economy? You really think that? Are they living on the street? Probably not: so there is rent income. Did they bring their own food? probably not: so supporting local stores and restaurants, same goes for any and all local services. And there is the ever present VAT that is tacked onto prices, so they are paying taxes.

Are they taking jobs away from Thais? Highly doubtful. And as earlier posted, just what sort of work permit could one get? Do they arrest business people from other countries who do some online business while they are visiting Thailand? Just checking email could be considered work, if it comes from company and requires a decision.

Thailand's anti business stance is going to bite them in the arse, if it hasn't already. Just decamp and move someplace with semblance of reason to policy.

This is the I bit don't understand about not making this jobs workable from Thailand.

These workers are making enough to live in Thaliand, they're not sending the money overseas, if anythign they're bringing more of their own money into the country to pad the local wage.

All the income they make from overseas is spent here in the local economy, rent, food, entertainment.... it's just income for Thailand.

And the government is making the 7% on everything.

[Soutpeel]

Fact where you earn your money or even if you earn money has absolutely no bearing on whether your working in Thailand or not, further if in the example you refer to a official from the DOL says your working, your working it is that simple

It's not, the DOL are not judge, jury and executioner.

If a judge rules that you are working, then you are working. The DOL can certainly send you up in front of one on the basis that they believe you are working, but that is not the same thing.

Not that I can find any example of anybody, ever, anywhere in the world that has ended up in front of one for a case regarding breach of either employment or visa legislation for being paid offshore by other offshore entities. Prosecution under Tax legislation would be a different matter, but that's a separate issue.

Your correct but they are the ones who can lay the charges and make life quite difficult for you until the court case comes up

As to your second paragraph, just because you can't find a case that has been prosecuted, doesn't infer its legal either

[Soutpeel]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

OK, not harming anyone.

So if I open a company that offers the same service but pay 50.000 / month , work permits, social , taxes.

Then this company turns up with the same service but does it illegally and can therefor undercut me, they are not harming anyone?

Your undercutting idea is kind of valid...

but since anyone anywhere in the world can undercut you..... do the local laws really matter in this case.

In the context of both parties being physically in Thailand yes it does matter

[micmichd]

Fact where you earn your money or even if you earn money has absolutely no bearing on whether your working in Thailand or not, further if in the example you refer to a official from the DOL says your working, your working it is that simple

It's not, the DOL are not judge, jury and executioner.

If a judge rules that you are working, then you are working. The DOL can certainly send you up in front of one on the basis that they believe you are working, but that is not the same thing.

Not that I can find any example of anybody, ever, anywhere in the world that has ended up in front of one for a case regarding breach of either employment or visa legislation for being paid offshore by other offshore entities. Prosecution under Tax legislation would be a different matter, but that's a separate issue.

Your correct but they are the ones who can lay the charges and make life quite difficult for you until the court case comes up

As to your second paragraph, just because you can't find a case that has been prosecuted, doesn't infer its legal either

[arthurwait]

I think you're going to have to go down to the police station to get all those questions answered.

Or the poster that was originally asked.

[arthurwait]

I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

Not contributing to Thai economy? You really think that? Are they living on the street? Probably not: so there is rent income. Did they bring their own food? probably not: so supporting local stores and restaurants, same goes for any and all local services. And there is the ever present VAT that is tacked onto prices, so they are paying taxes.

Are they taking jobs away from Thais? Highly doubtful. And as earlier posted, just what sort of work permit could one get? Do they arrest business people from other countries who do some online business while they are visiting Thailand? Just checking email could be considered work, if it comes from company and requires a decision.

Thailand's anti business stance is going to bite them in the arse, if it hasn't already. Just decamp and move someplace with semblance of reason to policy.

This is the I bit don't understand about not making this jobs workable from Thailand.

These workers are making enough to live in Thaliand, they're not sending the money overseas, if anythign they're bringing more of their own money into the country to pad the local wage.

All the income they make from overseas is spent here in the local economy, rent, food, entertainment.... it's just income for Thailand.

And the government is making the 7% on everything.

These jobs are workable from Thailand if the rules are followed as in employing Thais, tax etc. Yes the amount of Thais is too many but it gives a reason to issue a visa, as there is no reason otherwise for this work to be performed in Thailand and therefore no reason for a visa and WP.

[casualbiker]

You cannot actually get a work permit as a foreigner for self employed work like the one described ie working on a computer, earning money from overseas from overseas customers. So if you can't physically get a work permit it could be argued that you don't need one as they deem that your NOT working in Thailand. It's an extremely grey area that needs fixing!

[DJVillain]

i wouldnt want unqualified teachers teaching me either, whats the problem?

not fair for those who actually went through school to learn proper ways to teach.

In any other country it is illegal for people to work without work permits, its almost like white people think they have carte blanche to do whatever the hell it is they want to do, and feel as if they are being targeted specifically.

Wake up and open your farang eyes, you are nothing special in the global neighborhood...play by the same rules as everyone else, your not special and dont deserve any special rights, English is not a skill just because you can speak it - get a real job.

kudos to those who have actually had training to teach and have proper work permits.

Ooooh... That was a barbed comment in more than one way...

Got a problem against white people? or people who have done a TEFL and are teaching by chance?

[micmichd]

What the h*** are you talking about?

1. Online labour and the question of undercutting is a matter of globalization, like it or not, and Internet (VPN) is the media used for that.

The Internet is a 'lawless media' - call it a 'legal no-go area' if you want to. Lacking access to Internet, VPN or Clouds, law is enforced by surveillance of data traffic, and this is done by investigating the base stations, ie the servers, in New Jersey, California, Frankfurt, Bangkok, or where soever. Aditionally, your ATM habits can be traced, and then local authorities know where you are.

The problem of privacy for IT professionals using VPN is a never-ending issue so far, in Germany it is usually solved by Constitutional High Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht, case wise, and always very instructive for law-making.

2. Those cases in question here obviously refer to online teachers that were physically present in Thailand, otherwise they wouldn't have been picked up by Thai police.

As soon as they go back home, I would advise them to go for a professional law insurance and find a lawyer in case they get charged in Europe or USA of wheresoever.

Meanwhile, I would follow the advice of Thai police in Thailand, in order to avoid a new charge. You might be kept in custody next time, and rumours have it that the monkey house or Bangkok Hilton is not such a cozy place.

When charged at home - for payments to social security systems most probably - you will certainly need legal advice (from a lawyer, please), and you can try to communicate via Internet about your case. Charges will probably ccome after your next tax declaration, so get prepared.

Legal issues as stated above.

3. If the recruitment process in Thailand is finished, and if you are accepted, then feel free to apply for a visa that allows you to start working in Thailand.

Sawasdee cup.

[arthurwait]

You cannot actually get a work permit as a foreigner for self employed work like the one described ie working on a computer, earning money from overseas from overseas customers. So if you can't physically get a work permit it could be argued that you don't need one as they deem that your NOT working in Thailand. It's an extremely grey area that needs fixing!

Yes you can if you employ 4 Thais per farang , pay taxes and have a physical office in Thailand. My friend (British) has been employed by 2 companies doing just this with a work permit and Non-B.

There is no grey area.

[kriswillems]

Why not make what they did legal and let them sell the services to Thai people?

I think it's a great project and it would be very useful for Thailand.

There are 3 problems:

The process of obtaining a valid WP is not an easy process.
The demand for English teachers is high.
Prices for English teachers are high.

If you take away the WP requirement, or make it much easier and cheaper to get a WP for English teachers, all are solved.
It would be great for Thailand.

[Hawkman]

Why not make what they did legal and let them sell the services to Thai people?

I think it's a great project and it would be very useful for Thailand.

There are 3 problems:

The process of obtaining a valid WP is not an easy process.

The demand for English teachers is high.

Prices for English teachers are high.

If you take away the WP requirement, or make it much easier and cheaper to get a WP for English teachers, all are solved.

It would be great for Thailand.

Because that would be common sense and we wouldn't want that here.

The whole process does need looking at and the requirements to be a TEFL teacher is ridiculous and unrealistic in terms of salaries paid and what the normal Thai family can afford. The requirements are less strict in many other countries.

However, at the same time, we don't want all people who happen to be white and speak English thinking they can just turn up and easily become a teacher, so it's important there's some sort of screening, qualification and ability to do the job is done. Too many idiots in the profession but there's a lot of genuine ones too and really good teachers that make a difference but lack the degree.

There's a lot of anti-English teacher members on here and in some aspects I can see reasons for their moans, but you get lots of unsavoury expats doing other jobs or on retirement visas too, so most of it comes down to bitterness on their part.

I think this is something that will cause debate for years to come and nothing will be changed, what I do know is that most Thais (and people in power too) are willing to look the other way if the teacher is good and looks responsible, whether you have the right visa or not, as these are people they don't want to lose.

[beb]

Why not make what they did legal and let them sell the services to Thai people?

I think it's a great project and it would be very useful for Thailand.

There are 3 problems:

The process of obtaining a valid WP is not an easy process.

The demand for English teachers is high.

Prices for English teachers are high.

If you take away the WP requirement, or make it much easier and cheaper to get a WP for English teachers, all are solved.

It would be great for Thailand.

I've been on the defensive here for these people because I think a lot of the attacks here have been incredibly harsh and a bit over the top. But I don't think it does any good to eliminate the need for a work permit or to make to too easy. If you want to create a situation where people are working for even lower slave wages with even worse conditions then open up Thailand to anybody who crosses the border. If people can't be bothered to go through the process then they probably aren't serious enough to do the job.

And prices for teachers is not high. It is very low, even compared to countries Thailand borders.

The problem is selective enforcement done for every possible reason other than the official ones given. yes, laws should be enforced but if you look at countries that have a lot of corruption, there are plenty of laws on the books that are never followed because it is impossible to do so and run a business. And they aren't enforced. Except for when it suits the powers that be for whatever reason suits them. That's why it's so easy for some countries to suddenly raid a business and bust them for tax fraud. Everybody cheats but only those the government don't like get busted.

[binjalin]

You cannot actually get a work permit as a foreigner for self employed work like the one described ie working on a computer, earning money from overseas from overseas customers. So if you can't physically get a work permit it could be argued that you don't need one as they deem that your NOT working in Thailand. It's an extremely grey area that needs fixing!

Yes you can if you employ 4 Thais per farang , pay taxes and have a physical office in Thailand. My friend (British) has been employed by 2 companies doing just this with a work permit and Non-B.

There is no grey area.

so you are saying all the digital nomads (thousands) are illegal? if someone is a 'sole trader' and they cannot employ anyone and so cannot work via their laptop?

[casualbiker]

You cannot actually get a work permit as a foreigner for self employed work like the one described ie working on a computer, earning money from overseas from overseas customers. So if you can't physically get a work permit it could be argued that you don't need one as they deem that your NOT working in Thailand. It's an extremely grey area that needs fixing!

Yes you can if you employ 4 Thais per farang , pay taxes and have a physical office in Thailand. My friend (British) has been employed by 2 companies doing just this with a work permit and Non-B.

There is no grey area.

So therefore it not self employment is it .. there is a grey area for self employment regarding work permits, you can actually get a tax number and arrange to pay tax (many self employed Thais do so) but you cannot get a Work permit if your online work is not for Thai customers with payment originating outside Thailand. If you don't think that's a grey area, well ok!

[arthurwait]

Why not make what they did legal and let them sell the services to Thai people?

I think it's a great project and it would be very useful for Thailand.

There are 3 problems:

The process of obtaining a valid WP is not an easy process.

The demand for English teachers is high.

Prices for English teachers are high.

If you take away the WP requirement, or make it much easier and cheaper to get a WP for English teachers, all are solved.

It would be great for Thailand.

They can make it legal but they chose not to going on what has been reported if that is true. See my above post.

It is easier for teachers to get a work permit and visa as they don't have to meet the usual minimum foreigner wage and tax.

[arthurwait]

You cannot actually get a work permit as a foreigner for self employed work like the one described ie working on a computer, earning money from overseas from overseas customers. So if you can't physically get a work permit it could be argued that you don't need one as they deem that your NOT working in Thailand. It's an extremely grey area that needs fixing!

Yes you can if you employ 4 Thais per farang , pay taxes and have a physical office in Thailand. My friend (British) has been employed by 2 companies doing just this with a work permit and Non-B.

There is no grey area.

So therefore it not self employment is it .. there is a grey area for self employment regarding work permits, you can actually get a tax number and arrange to pay tax (many self employed Thais do so) but you cannot get a Work permit if your online work is not for Thai customers with payment originating in Thailand. If you don't think that's a grey area, well ok!

Starting your own business isn't self employment ?

Ok then there is no self employment and therefore no grey area.

The companies my friend worked for were farang owned / started. Therefore the person started it was self employed doing online work to foreign countries, employing more people doesn't change the fact that the originator was self employed.