17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[jspill]

^ News source doesn't seem reliable, someone posted in this thread they were released already days ago with a slap on the wrist, yet the article implies they're detained / in court proceedings.

Then that article says they were tutoring Chinese spies... huh?

Oh dear, well one only hope they make an example of these people including the owners of the company as a deterrent to others, Crack down on Ed visa's, back to back visa runs, one suspects crackdown on "English" schools next , this sort of behaviour will only stop or reduce when the full penalties under the law are used, go and jail the overstayer for few years

Although the banning from Thailand is not law yet, its things like this, which will make them push these sorts of laws through

Keep dreaming.

[Soutpeel]

^ News source doesn't seem reliable, someone posted in this thread they were released already days ago with a slap on the wrist, yet the article implies they're detained / in court proceedings.

Then that article says they were tutoring Chinese spies... huh?

Oh dear, well one only hope they make an example of these people including the owners of the company as a deterrent to others, Crack down on Ed visa's, back to back visa runs, one suspects crackdown on "English" schools next , this sort of behaviour will only stop or reduce when the full penalties under the law are used, go and jail the overstayer for few years

Although the banning from Thailand is not law yet, its things like this, which will make them push these sorts of laws through

Keep dreaming.

What do you mean, so someone posting something on here is more reliable than a published news story, the comments on here are unsubstantiated and unverifiable, therefore cannot by their nature be seen as reliable

As stated previously due to the actions of very selfish people one can expect further crack downs on people working illegally, people who blatantly abuse the Ed visa system and people who abuse visa waiver system

These same groups of people will be whinging that immigration makes it so hard to live in Thailand but one can only suggest that the a people who are abusing the systems are the ones in part who are creating the environment for immigration to make things harder for certain groups of people, so in simple words..... Its your own fault

[slipperx]

Perhaps the point here is they were working for a business operating in Thailand as opposed to working for themselves

[Soutpeel]

Perhaps the point here is they were working for a business operating in Thailand as opposed to working for themselves

Does it matter ? in the scheme of things, the have collared 17 farangs working illegally without WP's and some on extensive overstays, therefore this vindicates immigration/DOL in their current endeavours to clamp down visa's/WP's and possibly impose further measure's and crackdown's

[slipperx]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

[Soutpeel]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Edited January 27, 2015 by Soutpeel

[slipperx]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

I do not disagree with your advice but the issue is that the law is quite unclear. In this case it is clear they were working for a business so there is no argument really which was the point of the first post. However let's say you log on and sell some shares to make money in the USA - are you working? Say you do that everyday are you working? Say you are doing it on the SET from home in Thailand do you need a work permit? Well you could not get one without a legitimate business so basically you can't. Does that mean that anyone staying here cannot manage their investments then? As I say this is a clear case but there are plenty that are not clear cases because Thais cannot write laws very well or just prefer to leave everything subject to their interpretation so they can persecute who they like when they like.

[casualbiker]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Except in the instance your relating to it's not possible to get a WP for self employed work were the salary or payment for services is paid outside of Thailand.

Example : a magazine article editor, whose sole job is reading and rectifying copy.

Or in the example of the op : a language teacher using the internet as a media for students outside Thailand.

Both cases presume no interaction with Thai customers or payment within Thailand .. you cannot get a WP for this, so do you presume that therefore it isn't classified as work in the context of a Thai work permit!

[Soutpeel]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Except in the instance your relating to it's not possible to get a WP for self employed work were the salary or payment for services is paid outside of Thailand.

Example : a magazine article editor, whose sole job is reading and rectifying copy.

Or in the example of the op : a language teacher using the internet as a media for students outside Thailand.

Both cases presume no interaction with Thai customers or payment within Thailand .. you cannot get a WP for this, so do you presume that therefore it isn't classified as work in the context of a Thai work permit!

Yes you could, you could form a Thai company which invoices the companies outside Thailand and get a WP that way, there is nothing in the business laws or WP rules which say to get a WP business must be conducted only in Thailand or only with Thai customers, that assertion is just plain silly on your part

Its not a question of cant get a WP, its more of a case of most people can't be arsed or dont to spend the money to get legal, that is fact

Further I know a guy personally who operates a company from Thailand, is fully legal and only deals with overseas customers, he has no Thai customers, so your premise and comments are inaccurate, the difference is he could be arsed to set it up correctly

Further please let's get away from this concept of self employment shall we

I suspect the vast majority of people who claim to be self employed are invoicing through shelf companies they own in places like HK to offset individual tax liabilities in countries they are doing business in working as "self employed"

certainly in places like the UK companies will not deal with so called " self employed" people unless they are invoicing through a Ltd company, as it opens up all kinds of tax liability issues for said company if they are not taking income tax and NI off so called "self employed "

Therefore if they can set up a company in one country, why will they not do it in Thailand a get legal ?

Edited January 27, 2015 by Soutpeel

[mopar71]

It's an interesting case as they were provided services outside of Thailand, but I assume the payments to them were processed within Thailand. There has been a lot of discussion over the years that internet work where there are no Thai clients, no Thai banking involvement for payment, etc. is more or less "OK" as far as work permit laws ... sometimes even confirmed by some immigration offices. I know purists will say NEVER but in real life that isn't really so. Talking about stuff done in private as well usually from a home ... this place has a physical business office location so that would be different.

True. The reasoning behind work permits in the first place is to protect the local workers and get tax money. If a foreigner is sitting in Thailand doing his online business in another part of the world, they are not taking a job from anyone. They are not paying income tax in Thailand, but they do inject a lot of money into the local economy from rent, food, drink, etc...plus VAT in some cases.

[arunsakda]

Everybody has to stop touting this "farang injecting money" thing. This is not what all of this about now. The Thais are an extremely accomodating and tolerant people. Years ago they were so tolerant that utter junkies and peados stayed and played for years on end. They contributed to the economy too but that kind of thing is not going to work anymore. Do you think they even care for "rich" farang on the beaches with their naughty bits hanging out? Rubbish.

Change had come, the party is over, and I say good riddance. The sooner these net pikeys, sex tourists, crims and grifters are run out the better, I'd reckon.

Edited January 27, 2015 by arunsakda

[casualbiker]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Except in the instance your relating to it's not possible to get a WP for self employed work were the salary or payment for services is paid outside of Thailand.

Example : a magazine article editor, whose sole job is reading and rectifying copy.

Or in the example of the op : a language teacher using the internet as a media for students outside Thailand.

Both cases presume no interaction with Thai customers or payment within Thailand .. you cannot get a WP for this, so do you presume that therefore it isn't classified as work in the context of a Thai work permit!

Yes you could, you could form a Thai company which invoices the companies outside Thailand and get a WP that way, there is nothing in the business laws or WP rules which say to get a WP business must be conducted only in Thailand or only with Thai customers, that assertion is just plain silly on your part

Its not a question of cant get a WP, its more of a case of most people can't be arsed or dont to spend the money to get legal, that is fact

Further I know a guy personally who operates a company from Thailand, is fully legal and only deals with overseas customers, he has no Thai customers, so your premise and comments are inaccurate, the difference is he could be arsed to set it up correctly

Further please let's get away from this concept of self employment shall we

I suspect the vast majority of people who claim to be self employed are invoicing through shelf companies they own in places like HK to offset individual tax liabilities in countries they are doing business in working as "self employed"

certainly in places like the UK companies will not deal with so called " self employed" people unless they are invoicing through a Ltd company, as it opens up all kinds of tax liability issues for said company if they are not taking income tax and NI off so called "self employed "

Therefore if they can set up a company in one country, why will they not do it in Thailand a get legal ?

Again a poster rather than seeing that there is in fact a gap in the WP process for independent self employed people they state what is already known.

We know you can set up a company. We know you can employ 4 Thais for each foreign WP. But that still doesn't address those situations that I cited. The small scale work were it just isn't a viable option to set up a company etc etc etc.

But ok then!

[Soutpeel]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Except in the instance your relating to it's not possible to get a WP for self employed work were the salary or payment for services is paid outside of Thailand.

Example : a magazine article editor, whose sole job is reading and rectifying copy.

Or in the example of the op : a language teacher using the internet as a media for students outside Thailand.

Both cases presume no interaction with Thai customers or payment within Thailand .. you cannot get a WP for this, so do you presume that therefore it isn't classified as work in the context of a Thai work permit!

Yes you could, you could form a Thai company which invoices the companies outside Thailand and get a WP that way, there is nothing in the business laws or WP rules which say to get a WP business must be conducted only in Thailand or only with Thai customers, that assertion is just plain silly on your part

Its not a question of cant get a WP, its more of a case of most people can't be arsed or dont to spend the money to get legal, that is fact

Further I know a guy personally who operates a company from Thailand, is fully legal and only deals with overseas customers, he has no Thai customers, so your premise and comments are inaccurate, the difference is he could be arsed to set it up correctly

Further please let's get away from this concept of self employment shall we

I suspect the vast majority of people who claim to be self employed are invoicing through shelf companies they own in places like HK to offset individual tax liabilities in countries they are doing business in working as "self employed"

certainly in places like the UK companies will not deal with so called " self employed" people unless they are invoicing through a Ltd company, as it opens up all kinds of tax liability issues for said company if they are not taking income tax and NI off so called "self employed "

Therefore if they can set up a company in one country, why will they not do it in Thailand a get legal ?

Again a poster rather than seeing that there is in fact a gap in the WP process for independent self employed people they state what is already known.

We know you can set up a company. We know you can employ 4 Thais for each foreign WP. But that still doesn't address those situations that I cited. The small scale work were it just isn't a viable option to set up a company etc etc etc.

But ok then!

I don't see any gap in WP system, simply because if there was such provision in the form you suggest, it would be another vehicle for long term visa abuse in Thailand as some nob gets off the banana boat proclaims he/she is self employed and demands a long term visa,

I believe immigration/DOL actually have the right balance, its not a difficult system, but not that easy for chancers either

[casualbiker]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Except in the instance your relating to it's not possible to get a WP for self employed work were the salary or payment for services is paid outside of Thailand.

Example : a magazine article editor, whose sole job is reading and rectifying copy.

Or in the example of the op : a language teacher using the internet as a media for students outside Thailand.

Both cases presume no interaction with Thai customers or payment within Thailand .. you cannot get a WP for this, so do you presume that therefore it isn't classified as work in the context of a Thai work permit!

Yes you could, you could form a Thai company which invoices the companies outside Thailand and get a WP that way, there is nothing in the business laws or WP rules which say to get a WP business must be conducted only in Thailand or only with Thai customers, that assertion is just plain silly on your part

Its not a question of cant get a WP, its more of a case of most people can't be arsed or dont to spend the money to get legal, that is fact

Further I know a guy personally who operates a company from Thailand, is fully legal and only deals with overseas customers, he has no Thai customers, so your premise and comments are inaccurate, the difference is he could be arsed to set it up correctly

Further please let's get away from this concept of self employment shall we

I suspect the vast majority of people who claim to be self employed are invoicing through shelf companies they own in places like HK to offset individual tax liabilities in countries they are doing business in working as "self employed"

certainly in places like the UK companies will not deal with so called " self employed" people unless they are invoicing through a Ltd company, as it opens up all kinds of tax liability issues for said company if they are not taking income tax and NI off so called "self employed "

Therefore if they can set up a company in one country, why will they not do it in Thailand a get legal ?

Again a poster rather than seeing that there is in fact a gap in the WP process for independent self employed people they state what is already known.

We know you can set up a company. We know you can employ 4 Thais for each foreign WP. But that still doesn't address those situations that I cited. The small scale work were it just isn't a viable option to set up a company etc etc etc.

But ok then!

I don't see any gap in WP system, simply because if there was such provision in the form you suggest, it would be another vehicle for long term visa abuse in Thailand as some nob gets off the banana boat proclaims he/she is self employed and demands a long term visa,

I believe immigration/DOL actually have the right balance, its not a difficult system, but not that easy for chancers either

They would still have to provide tax receipts. So no different to any WP now .. win win.. more tax revenue for Thailand. Correct and proper documentation for people working online from home.

[phrodan]

Everybody has to stop touting this "farang injecting money" thing. This is not what all of this about now. The Thais are an extremely accomodating and tolerant people. Years ago they were so tolerant that utter junkies and peados stayed and played for years on end. They contributed to the economy too but that kind of thing is not going to work anymore. Do you think they even care for "rich" farang on the beaches with their naughty bits hanging out? Rubbish.

Change had come, the party is over, and I say good riddance. The sooner these net pikeys, sex tourists, crims and grifters are run out the better, I'd reckon.

I know a guy who is earning $26,000 a month plus from his "net pikey," business. To be fair he's the top earner I know, but I do know plenty who are earning over $2000 a month, which is basically the same as the income for retirement reasons in the country.

I - think you are jealous of those people, so that's why you demean them. By the way. the guy that's earning $26,000 a month is on a Thai Elite visa, and he's only 24 years old. That must really, really annoy you.

[balo]

The guy with 1267 days overstay had to know that sooner or later he would end up in prison. This is the lowest kind of foreigners you will find in Thailand , probably couldnt afford to pay for the visa. Or maybe hiding from the law .

Edited January 27, 2015 by balo

[bangmai]

Everybody has to stop touting this "farang injecting money" thing. This is not what all of this about now. The Thais are an extremely accomodating and tolerant people. Years ago they were so tolerant that utter junkies and peados stayed and played for years on end. They contributed to the economy too but that kind of thing is not going to work anymore. Do you think they even care for "rich" farang on the beaches with their naughty bits hanging out? Rubbish.

Change had come, the party is over, and I say good riddance. The sooner these net pikeys, sex tourists, crims and grifters are run out the better, I'd reckon.

I know a guy who is earning $26,000 a month plus from his "net pikey," business. To be fair he's the top earner I know, but I do know plenty who are earning over $2000 a month, which is basically the same as the income for retirement reasons in the country.

I - think you are jealous of those people, so that's why you demean them. By the way. the guy that's earning $26,000 a month is on a Thai Elite visa, and he's only 24 years old. That must really, really annoy you.

good for him, and he's not even a visa runner. I do think that for every person like him, there are 500 others, whose webstores, blogs. etc..that get checks from Google for less than a Dollar per month...maybe it should be called "AdCents." There seems to be good money in the seminars.......

[phrodan]

Everybody has to stop touting this "farang injecting money" thing. This is not what all of this about now. The Thais are an extremely accomodating and tolerant people. Years ago they were so tolerant that utter junkies and peados stayed and played for years on end. They contributed to the economy too but that kind of thing is not going to work anymore. Do you think they even care for "rich" farang on the beaches with their naughty bits hanging out? Rubbish.

Change had come, the party is over, and I say good riddance. The sooner these net pikeys, sex tourists, crims and grifters are run out the better, I'd reckon.

I know a guy who is earning $26,000 a month plus from his "net pikey," business. To be fair he's the top earner I know, but I do know plenty who are earning over $2000 a month, which is basically the same as the income for retirement reasons in the country.

I - think you are jealous of those people, so that's why you demean them. By the way. the guy that's earning $26,000 a month is on a Thai Elite visa, and he's only 24 years old. That must really, really annoy you.

good for him, and he's not even a visa runner. I do think that for every person like him, there are 500 others, whose webstores, blogs. etc..that get checks from Google for less than a Dollar per month...maybe it should be called "AdCents." There seems to be good money in the seminars.......

Like all businesses in the world there are winners and loser - that's why I pointed out that I know many people earning $2,000 a month. I have no doubt there will be plenty on a lot less than that. I look at these young people not with jealousy - with admiration. They are living a life that I think many of us would not have been able to envisage thirty years ago, certainly forty or fifty years ago.

I don't know why they attract so much hatred.

[bangmai]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Maybe the jury will buy their arguments.......LOL.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case...

It simply is not. In the instance slipperx mentions both serviced entity and payment are outside of Thailand. These people were being paid in Thailand, in THB, by an entity in Thailand (having answered a job advert in Thailand, and operated from an office in Thailand).

Edited January 27, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[Soutpeel]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Except in the instance your relating to it's not possible to get a WP for self employed work were the salary or payment for services is paid outside of Thailand.

Example : a magazine article editor, whose sole job is reading and rectifying copy.

Or in the example of the op : a language teacher using the internet as a media for students outside Thailand.

Both cases presume no interaction with Thai customers or payment within Thailand .. you cannot get a WP for this, so do you presume that therefore it isn't classified as work in the context of a Thai work permit!

Yes you could, you could form a Thai company which invoices the companies outside Thailand and get a WP that way, there is nothing in the business laws or WP rules which say to get a WP business must be conducted only in Thailand or only with Thai customers, that assertion is just plain silly on your part

Its not a question of cant get a WP, its more of a case of most people can't be arsed or dont to spend the money to get legal, that is fact

Further I know a guy personally who operates a company from Thailand, is fully legal and only deals with overseas customers, he has no Thai customers, so your premise and comments are inaccurate, the difference is he could be arsed to set it up correctly

Further please let's get away from this concept of self employment shall we

I suspect the vast majority of people who claim to be self employed are invoicing through shelf companies they own in places like HK to offset individual tax liabilities in countries they are doing business in working as "self employed"

certainly in places like the UK companies will not deal with so called " self employed" people unless they are invoicing through a Ltd company, as it opens up all kinds of tax liability issues for said company if they are not taking income tax and NI off so called "self employed "

Therefore if they can set up a company in one country, why will they not do it in Thailand a get legal ?

Again a poster rather than seeing that there is in fact a gap in the WP process for independent self employed people they state what is already known.

We know you can set up a company. We know you can employ 4 Thais for each foreign WP. But that still doesn't address those situations that I cited. The small scale work were it just isn't a viable option to set up a company etc etc etc.

But ok then!

I don't see any gap in WP system, simply because if there was such provision in the form you suggest, it would be another vehicle for long term visa abuse in Thailand as some nob gets off the banana boat proclaims he/she is self employed and demands a long term visa,

I believe immigration/DOL actually have the right balance, its not a difficult system, but not that easy for chancers either

They would still have to provide tax receipts. So no different to any WP now .. win win.. more tax revenue for Thailand. Correct and proper documentation for people working online from home.

Tax receipts from where ?

[Soutpeel]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case...

It simply is not. In the instance slipperx mentions both serviced entity and payment are outside of Thailand. These people were being paid in Thailand, in THB, by an entity in Thailand (having answered a job advert in Thailand, and operated from an office in Thailand).

But back to a basic fact as regards a Thai WP, where, how or even if you do get paid has absolutely no bearing on the current definition of working in Thailand so this aspect is irrelevant

[slipperx]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case...

It simply is not. In the instance slipperx mentions both serviced entity and payment are outside of Thailand. These people were being paid in Thailand, in THB, by an entity in Thailand (having answered a job advert in Thailand, and operated from an office in Thailand).

But back to a basic fact as regards a Thai WP, where, how or even if you do get paid has absolutely no bearing on the current definition of working in Thailand so this aspect is irrelevant

As I said the case in the OP is clearly a breach but there are many other circumstances where the law is far from clear and subject to interpretation. Exactly the way Thais like it. I gave a few examples but these guys are clearly in breach. I see no responses on managing your investments but if you need s Thai company and four Thai employees to do that then it's plain daft.

[casualbiker]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case...

It simply is not. In the instance slipperx mentions both serviced entity and payment are outside of Thailand. These people were being paid in Thailand, in THB, by an entity in Thailand (having answered a job advert in Thailand, and operated from an office in Thailand).

But back to a basic fact as regards a Thai WP, where, how or even if you do get paid has absolutely no bearing on the current definition of working in Thailand so this aspect is irrelevant

Which in itself is a bit daft. Not many people work for no salary. No?

[Soutpeel]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case...

It simply is not. In the instance slipperx mentions both serviced entity and payment are outside of Thailand. These people were being paid in Thailand, in THB, by an entity in Thailand (having answered a job advert in Thailand, and operated from an office in Thailand).

But back to a basic fact as regards a Thai WP, where, how or even if you do get paid has absolutely no bearing on the current definition of working in Thailand so this aspect is irrelevant

As I said the case in the OP is clearly a breach but there are many other circumstances where the law is far from clear and subject to interpretation. Exactly the way Thais like it. I gave a few examples but these guys are clearly in breach. I see no responses on managing your investments but if you need s Thai company and four Thai employees to do that then it's plain daft.

Define managing your investments ?, very ambiguous hence no responses one suspects

[Soutpeel]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case...

It simply is not. In the instance slipperx mentions both serviced entity and payment are outside of Thailand. These people were being paid in Thailand, in THB, by an entity in Thailand (having answered a job advert in Thailand, and operated from an office in Thailand).

But back to a basic fact as regards a Thai WP, where, how or even if you do get paid has absolutely no bearing on the current definition of working in Thailand so this aspect is irrelevant

Which in itself is a bit daft. Not many people work for no salary. No?

Volunteers do

[slipperx]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case...

It simply is not. In the instance slipperx mentions both serviced entity and payment are outside of Thailand. These people were being paid in Thailand, in THB, by an entity in Thailand (having answered a job advert in Thailand, and operated from an office in Thailand).

But back to a basic fact as regards a Thai WP, where, how or even if you do get paid has absolutely no bearing on the current definition of working in Thailand so this aspect is irrelevant

As I said the case in the OP is clearly a breach but there are many other circumstances where the law is far from clear and subject to interpretation. Exactly the way Thais like it. I gave a few examples but these guys are clearly in breach. I see no responses on managing your investments but if you need s Thai company and four Thai employees to do that then it's plain daft.

Define managing your investments ?, very ambiguous hence no responses one suspects

You can have a range of answers as it is not a person specific question. One guy may buy and sell a few shares in the UK once or twice a month. Another may trade Forex an hour a day on the Internet. Another may trade the open in US everyday. Yet another may trade four hours a day setting up option trades. Another may trade the SET in Thailand. Do all of these need a work permit or only some? If some where do you draw the line - if all then do people trying to organize their pension have to go to Cambodia or Laos to do it? Does it matter what visa they are on?

I think you might begin to see the options are multitudinous or maybe it only counts if you are receiving income from managing someone else's money. If the latter can you manage your children's money from Thailand or is it just people outside the family? As I say the law is not really very clear is it. Most just muddle on hoping that going to the bank to withdraw a few thousand baht doesn't breach the code if they are going to pay for some goods for home improvement rather than spending it in a bar or on a Thai person!

[casualbiker]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Except in the instance your relating to it's not possible to get a WP for self employed work were the salary or payment for services is paid outside of Thailand.

Example : a magazine article editor, whose sole job is reading and rectifying copy.

Or in the example of the op : a language teacher using the internet as a media for students outside Thailand.

Both cases presume no interaction with Thai customers or payment within Thailand .. you cannot get a WP for this, so do you presume that therefore it isn't classified as work in the context of a Thai work permit!

Yes you could, you could form a Thai company which invoices the companies outside Thailand and get a WP that way, there is nothing in the business laws or WP rules which say to get a WP business must be conducted only in Thailand or only with Thai customers, that assertion is just plain silly on your part

Its not a question of cant get a WP, its more of a case of most people can't be arsed or dont to spend the money to get legal, that is fact

Further I know a guy personally who operates a company from Thailand, is fully legal and only deals with overseas customers, he has no Thai customers, so your premise and comments are inaccurate, the difference is he could be arsed to set it up correctly

Further please let's get away from this concept of self employment shall we

I suspect the vast majority of people who claim to be self employed are invoicing through shelf companies they own in places like HK to offset individual tax liabilities in countries they are doing business in working as "self employed"

certainly in places like the UK companies will not deal with so called " self employed" people unless they are invoicing through a Ltd company, as it opens up all kinds of tax liability issues for said company if they are not taking income tax and NI off so called "self employed "

Therefore if they can set up a company in one country, why will they not do it in Thailand a get legal ?

Again a poster rather than seeing that there is in fact a gap in the WP process for independent self employed people they state what is already known.

We know you can set up a company. We know you can employ 4 Thais for each foreign WP. But that still doesn't address those situations that I cited. The small scale work were it just isn't a viable option to set up a company etc etc etc.

But ok then!

I don't see any gap in WP system, simply because if there was such provision in the form you suggest, it would be another vehicle for long term visa abuse in Thailand as some nob gets off the banana boat proclaims he/she is self employed and demands a long term visa,

I believe immigration/DOL actually have the right balance, its not a difficult system, but not that easy for chancers either

They would still have to provide tax receipts. So no different to any WP now .. win win.. more tax revenue for Thailand. Correct and proper documentation for people working online from home.

Tax receipts from where ?

If you had a wp in Thailand thus keeping within the rather vague rules on "work " then it would be tax receipts from Thailand. The same way that Thai people self assess for taxable income purposes. If they wanted to they could insist on a minimum amount of tax to be paid then structured upwards!

Anything is possible with the right thought processes.

Cambodia for example make it easier when it comes to visa's and to a lesser extent Wp (many Expats don't have Wp because it's not enforced, and when it is it's just the case of getting one)

[Soutpeel]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Except in the instance your relating to it's not possible to get a WP for self employed work were the salary or payment for services is paid outside of Thailand.

Example : a magazine article editor, whose sole job is reading and rectifying copy.

Or in the example of the op : a language teacher using the internet as a media for students outside Thailand.

Both cases presume no interaction with Thai customers or payment within Thailand .. you cannot get a WP for this, so do you presume that therefore it isn't classified as work in the context of a Thai work permit!

Yes you could, you could form a Thai company which invoices the companies outside Thailand and get a WP that way, there is nothing in the business laws or WP rules which say to get a WP business must be conducted only in Thailand or only with Thai customers, that assertion is just plain silly on your part

Its not a question of cant get a WP, its more of a case of most people can't be arsed or dont to spend the money to get legal, that is fact

Further I know a guy personally who operates a company from Thailand, is fully legal and only deals with overseas customers, he has no Thai customers, so your premise and comments are inaccurate, the difference is he could be arsed to set it up correctly

Further please let's get away from this concept of self employment shall we

I suspect the vast majority of people who claim to be self employed are invoicing through shelf companies they own in places like HK to offset individual tax liabilities in countries they are doing business in working as "self employed"

certainly in places like the UK companies will not deal with so called " self employed" people unless they are invoicing through a Ltd company, as it opens up all kinds of tax liability issues for said company if they are not taking income tax and NI off so called "self employed "

Therefore if they can set up a company in one country, why will they not do it in Thailand a get legal ?

Again a poster rather than seeing that there is in fact a gap in the WP process for independent self employed people they state what is already known.

We know you can set up a company. We know you can employ 4 Thais for each foreign WP. But that still doesn't address those situations that I cited. The small scale work were it just isn't a viable option to set up a company etc etc etc.

But ok then!

I don't see any gap in WP system, simply because if there was such provision in the form you suggest, it would be another vehicle for long term visa abuse in Thailand as some nob gets off the banana boat proclaims he/she is self employed and demands a long term visa,

I believe immigration/DOL actually have the right balance, its not a difficult system, but not that easy for chancers either

They would still have to provide tax receipts. So no different to any WP now .. win win.. more tax revenue for Thailand. Correct and proper documentation for people working online from home.

Tax receipts from where ?

If you had a wp in Thailand thus keeping within the rather vague rules on "work " then it would be tax receipts from Thailand. The same way that Thai people self assess for taxable income purposes. If they wanted to they could insist on a minimum amount of tax to be paid then structured upwards!

Anything is possible with the right thought processes.

Cambodia for example make it easier when it comes to visa's and to a lesser extent Wp (many Expats don't have Wp because it's not enforced, and when it is it's just the case of getting one)

So you would have no problem paying a provisional tax rate of 35% seeing as people going this route wouldn't fall under PAYE ?

[micmichd]

Perhaps the point here is they were working for a business operating in Thailand as opposed to working for themselves