17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[casualbiker]

You cannot actually get a work permit as a foreigner for self employed work like the one described ie working on a computer, earning money from overseas from overseas customers. So if you can't physically get a work permit it could be argued that you don't need one as they deem that your NOT working in Thailand. It's an extremely grey area that needs fixing!

Yes you can if you employ 4 Thais per farang , pay taxes and have a physical office in Thailand. My friend (British) has been employed by 2 companies doing just this with a work permit and Non-B.

There is no grey area.

So therefore it not self employment is it .. there is a grey area for self employment regarding work permits, you can actually get a tax number and arrange to pay tax (many self employed Thais do so) but you cannot get a Work permit if your online work is not for Thai customers with payment originating outside Thailand. If you don't think that's a grey area, well ok! Edited January 26, 2015 by casualbiker

[arthurwait]

Why not make what they did legal and let them sell the services to Thai people?

I think it's a great project and it would be very useful for Thailand.

There are 3 problems:

The process of obtaining a valid WP is not an easy process.

The demand for English teachers is high.

Prices for English teachers are high.

If you take away the WP requirement, or make it much easier and cheaper to get a WP for English teachers, all are solved.

It would be great for Thailand.

They can make it legal but they chose not to going on what has been reported if that is true. See my above post.

It is easier for teachers to get a work permit and visa as they don't have to meet the usual minimum foreigner wage and tax.

[arthurwait]

You cannot actually get a work permit as a foreigner for self employed work like the one described ie working on a computer, earning money from overseas from overseas customers. So if you can't physically get a work permit it could be argued that you don't need one as they deem that your NOT working in Thailand. It's an extremely grey area that needs fixing!

Yes you can if you employ 4 Thais per farang , pay taxes and have a physical office in Thailand. My friend (British) has been employed by 2 companies doing just this with a work permit and Non-B.

There is no grey area.

So therefore it not self employment is it .. there is a grey area for self employment regarding work permits, you can actually get a tax number and arrange to pay tax (many self employed Thais do so) but you cannot get a Work permit if your online work is not for Thai customers with payment originating in Thailand. If you don't think that's a grey area, well ok!

Starting your own business isn't self employment ?

Ok then there is no self employment and therefore no grey area.

The companies my friend worked for were farang owned / started. Therefore the person started it was self employed doing online work to foreign countries, employing more people doesn't change the fact that the originator was self employed.

Edited January 26, 2015 by arthurwait

[arthurwait]

You cannot actually get a work permit as a foreigner for self employed work like the one described ie working on a computer, earning money from overseas from overseas customers. So if you can't physically get a work permit it could be argued that you don't need one as they deem that your NOT working in Thailand. It's an extremely grey area that needs fixing!

Yes you can if you employ 4 Thais per farang , pay taxes and have a physical office in Thailand. My friend (British) has been employed by 2 companies doing just this with a work permit and Non-B.

There is no grey area.

so you are saying all the digital nomads (thousands) are illegal? if someone is a 'sole trader' and they cannot employ anyone and so cannot work via their laptop?

[casualbiker]

You cannot actually get a work permit as a foreigner for self employed work like the one described ie working on a computer, earning money from overseas from overseas customers. So if you can't physically get a work permit it could be argued that you don't need one as they deem that your NOT working in Thailand. It's an extremely grey area that needs fixing!

Yes you can if you employ 4 Thais per farang , pay taxes and have a physical office in Thailand. My friend (British) has been employed by 2 companies doing just this with a work permit and Non-B.

There is no grey area.

So therefore it not self employment is it .. there is a grey area for self employment regarding work permits, you can actually get a tax number and arrange to pay tax (many self employed Thais do so) but you cannot get a Work permit if your online work is not for Thai customers with payment originating in Thailand. If you don't think that's a grey area, well ok!

Starting your own business isn't self employment ?

Ok then there is no self employment and therefore no grey area.

The companies my friend worked for were farang owned / started. Therefore the person started it was self employed doing online work to foreign countries, employing more people doesn't change the fact that the originator was self employed.

You either have no clue what self employed means or your just trying to dodge the simple fact that there is indeed a grey area.

Your friend wasn't self employed and as soon as the company owner capitalized the company he wasn't self employed (he was employed by the company he started)

[rwdrwdrwd]

Edit - better things to do than play Groundhog Day again

I'm definitely not going to be replacing it with the use of any physical energy or knowledge whatsoever in the course of my day though, for those eagle eyed grey area doubting legal spotters that follow the Alien Working Act, B.E.2551 (2008) Section 5 to the letter.

Oh damn those fingers, I just did.

Edited January 26, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[Karlos11]

Ohh god .. Its tourist like these folks gives others a bad name. Im sure they all knew from the start that u cannot work here in thailand without a work permit, but they proceed anyway hoping the bibs dont catch up to them... No wonder the visa's are changing all the time as if we Abuse the thai system.. Eventually thailand will end up like australia with their visa system, lots of question, providing evidence of your visit, paperwork, and most of all harrassment by the customs and immigration officers

[SiSePuede419]

When I was in Chiang Mai 14 years ago, I saw several people wearing white shirts and ties carrying briefcases.

English teachers, 555?

According to my sources, being an English teacher in Thailand pays between $500 to $1000 USD/month.

In America, educated people earning that much would be considered "losers"...

[casualbiker]

When I was in Chiang Mai 14 years ago, I saw several people wearing white shirts and ties carrying briefcases.

English teachers, 555?

According to my sources, being an English teacher in Thailand pays between $500 to $1000 USD/month.

In America, educated people earning that much would be considered "losers"...

Dunno were you get your sources from but salary tends to be $1000 upto about $1500 (30k baht up) for normal schools and mini EP.

Probably about 35k could be considered standard (no such thing really)

That is middle income in Thailand. It's enough to rent a decent house, buy a new car and live a happy life. This ain't America!

[micmichd]

rwdrwdrwd (how many?),

yes, you're right. Alien Working Act Section 5 indeed gives a clear definition what should be regarded as 'work', and it includes any kind of online work done from Thai soil.

Yet the question remains what to do during the recruitment process. This is a waiting period, and Farangs that want to work online from Thailand probably have to wait for the permit in their home country. And it's surely a difference between private emails and VPN emails, and this can be easily spotted by looking at durations of connectivity and location of DSL servers (IP addresses) It should be easy for programmers to add another case for the case that one (eg IP address) is missing, you can (technically) still get data by using tax IDs or SWIFT codes or SEPA details. Maybe a violation of privacy laws in some countries, but technically possible. A legal procedure for that should also be available. You collect evidence for a charge, and then put the burden of proof on the suspect. Don't think this can't happen to you, it can and - quite obviously - will happen. Like it or not, ask a lawyer for your special case, and if you're looking for the intention behind it all, then be aware of the big cultural lag between the West and the East: family and land as ultimate goals, and nothing but money in the West.

[arthurwait]

Phillipinos etc and illegal/ no work permit or degree-less in public schools farangs can earn as little 15k, international school qualified teachers can earn 10 times that. Private language school farang owners can earn much more.

[rwdrwdrwd]

rwdrwdrwd (how many?),

yes, you're right. Alien Working Act Section 5 indeed gives a clear definition what should be regarded as 'work', and it includes any kind of online work done from Thai soil.

1 - It includes any activity whatsoever paid or unpaid

2 - The definition of 'working' refers to 'working' - It is recursive, and as such doesn't define 'working'!

3 - Given the above, it literally interprets to include breathing and walking.

Surely you don't believe this is a clear definition.

That you believe it includes people performing activity online is entirely your interpretation, the definition is so badly written that it simply means either

'up to us on a case by case basis'

or

'any physical or mental activity paid or unpaid'

That is why the area is grey.

And frankly, in the extremely unlikely event that billions of baht are invested in a system to both detect if people are earning money online and perform forensics to isolate proof, and they ever decide to prosecute someone for doing so, the sensible person operating in that manner would either simply move elsewhere (or submit and set up a service Thai co running 60k odd baht, or less if married, though it a month). No real gain on that investment in a system either way is there?

Edited January 26, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[micmichd]

If you make money from inside your own home on line and you do nothing apart from pay for the connection, have no Thai's involved, sell nothing in Thailand, Buy nothing in Thailand, and the money is outland revenue, you are not in the same class as working in Thailand. You are working in cyber space. Petty and typical of Thailand to take this immature stance. Hopefully a court may look at this in a sympathetic way and realize that these people are not ticking all the prosecution boxes in the strict wording of the law for them to be convicted of any crime. Personal computers and what you do with them in the privacy of your own home financially should not classed as working as long as Thailand is in no way involved. I can put a classified add on Thai visa, sell a TV to a reader and make a few baht profit. Am i working illegally? This is actually worse than what these people have done because i have bought a product in Thailand and sold it in Thailand and made money.

technically writing the above (and this) post was providing content to a professional website. as Thailand does not differentiate between paid and non-paid "work" this would be no different to their guys writing articles for their tech site. Thaivisa then take your content and wrap it with adverts to make money

do you have a work permit for this???! or for posting to Facebook, Twitter or heaven forbid.. your own site?

thought not, laws can be silly when wrote so vague

[micmichd]

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/translations/foreign-employment-working-of-aliens-act

feel free to read the definition of 'work'.

[rwdrwdrwd]

I did

Section 5. In this Act,

...

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit;

..

That definition is not a definition. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that work means 'using energy' or using 'knowledge' and that it doesn't matter if you're paid. Breathing uses energy, hence one of the following is true:

A - Anybody who comes to Thailand, ever, for any length of time or any purpose is working.
B - The law is unclear, and the only guidance we have to go upon is precedent via court judgement.

Edited January 26, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[micmichd]

When I was in Chiang Mai 14 years ago, I saw several people wearing white shirts and ties carrying briefcases.

English teachers, 555?

According to my sources, being an English teacher in Thailand pays between $500 to $1000 USD/month.

In America, educated people earning that much would be considered "losers"...

[micmichd]

I did

Section 5. In this Act,

...

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit;

..

That definition is not a definition. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that work means 'using energy' or using 'knowledge' and that it doesn't matter if you're paid. Breathing uses energy, hence one of the following is true:

A - Anybody who comes to Thailand, ever, for any length of time or any purpose is working.

B - The law is unclear, and the only guidance we have to go upon is precedent via court judgement.

[micmichd]

Then feel free to go to court and claim a definition of 'energy', and run the risk risk that they define it as 'sustainability - consumption of environmental resources' and run the risk that it ends up with taxing tourism (like they do on some German beaches).

[micmichd]

When I was in Chiang Mai 14 years ago, I saw several people wearing white shirts and ties carrying briefcases.

English teachers, 555?

According to my sources, being an English teacher in Thailand pays between $500 to $1000 USD/month.

In America, educated people earning that much would be considered "losers"...

[rwdrwdrwd]

Then feel free to go to court and claim a definition of 'energy', and run the risk risk that they define it as 'sustainability - consumption of environmental resources' and run the risk that it ends up with taxing tourism (like they do on some German beaches).

Yeh guess they could... time will tell.

Edited January 26, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[micmichd]

This is the dilemma of bloody globalization.

The only solution that comes in my mind is: start a union of online workers or something like that and go for collective bargaining, but be aware that you're fighting big money in the USA then, in Germany employees usually go to court in cases of strike and demand the right to strike should be declared illegal, in many cases they fail, though, because unions focus strikes on certain centres (Frankfurt Airport, Frankfurt Central Station, Berlin CS etc.).

Edited January 26, 2015 by micmichd

[micmichd]

If you make money from inside your own home on line and you do nothing apart from pay for the connection, have no Thai's involved, sell nothing in Thailand, Buy nothing in Thailand, and the money is outland revenue, you are not in the same class as working in Thailand. You are working in cyber space. Petty and typical of Thailand to take this immature stance. Hopefully a court may look at this in a sympathetic way and realize that these people are not ticking all the prosecution boxes in the strict wording of the law for them to be convicted of any crime. Personal computers and what you do with them in the privacy of your own home financially should not classed as working as long as Thailand is in no way involved. I can put a classified add on Thai visa, sell a TV to a reader and make a few baht profit. Am i working illegally? This is actually worse than what these people have done because i have bought a product in Thailand and sold it in Thailand and made money.

technically writing the above (and this) post was providing content to a professional website. as Thailand does not differentiate between paid and non-paid "work" this would be no different to their guys writing articles for their tech site. Thaivisa then take your content and wrap it with adverts to make money

do you have a work permit for this???! or for posting to Facebook, Twitter or heaven forbid.. your own site?

thought not, laws can be silly when wrote so vague

[micmichd]

Where do you think the Thaivisa DNS is at?

This is also one thing one could learn from Germany: the more perfect a law is, the more holes are in the net, and it's better Not to repeat typical German over-perfectionalism when it comes to privacy protection. I'm doing research on a clear definition on intimacy and privacy spheres, in cm and meters, in order to define a 'no-go area' for mind and body scans in medical research, and I've got good reasons why I think it's necessary.

Better a vague definition then a sharp razor blade.

[techboy]

So they were teaching online courses to people in China.....no one in China able to do this?

I do not see your point. But it is nice to know that the market exists.

[dabhand]

Reckon this article in the Daily Telegraph about 'Best places in the world to work remotely' might interest a few posters on this thread.

Particularly the top four and especially #1

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/11363335/The-13-best-places-in-the-world-to-work-remotely.html?frame=3174457

[Jingthing]

Reckon this article in the Daily Telegraph about 'Best places in the world to work remotely' might interest a few posters on this thread.

Particularly the top four and especially #1

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/11363335/The-13-best-places-in-the-world-to-work-remotely.html?frame=3174457

No surprise at all but isn't the visa situation harder these day?

[VIPinthailand]

most of you are jealous because you wish to work

in Thailand and nobody want hire you.

some have courage and work even without a work permit.

oh by the way, working is a human right, like eating, drinking, breathing.... do you need a eat permit? think about it... this society created by men for men is a disaster.

[Fab5BKK]

"The demand for English teachers is high": Do you mean qualified teachers (Education degree + Teaching background) or something else?

"Prices for English teachers are high": What do you mean by that? How high are the English teacher's salaries in Thailand?

Just curious...

Why not make what they did legal and let them sell the services to Thai people?

I think it's a great project and it would be very useful for Thailand.

There are 3 problems:

The process of obtaining a valid WP is not an easy process.
The demand for English teachers is high.
Prices for English teachers are high.

If you take away the WP requirement, or make it much easier and cheaper to get a WP for English teachers, all are solved.
It would be great for Thailand.

[bangmai]

Here is the latest: note NONE had proper WP, and one was on 1242 days overstay. http://www.chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=4783

[Soutpeel]

Here is the latest: note NONE had proper WP, and one was on 1242 days overstay. http://www.chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=4783

Oh dear, well one only hope they make an example of these people including the owners of the company as a deterrent to others, Crack down on Ed visa's, back to back visa runs, one suspects crackdown on "English" schools next , this sort of behaviour will only stop or reduce when the full penalties under the law are used, go and jail the overstayer for few years

Although the banning from Thailand is not law yet, its things like this, which will make them push these sorts of laws through

Edited January 26, 2015 by Soutpeel