17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[gerry123]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

They were not committing a crime,?????

going on what the report the reporting said they WERE committing crimes in some cases SEVERAL

[wolf5370]

some people just like to push the boundaries, now they have blown it and will be tossed out, pretty stupid really for a few extra dollars

Teachers I know do it because it is their only source of income....sad really....they love to stay here and this is the only way they can do it. I'm feeling pretty grateful after reading this.

I've never taught English in Thailand, and wouldn't want to.

But over the last 5 years, I couldn't COUNT the number of Thais who openly and repeatedly encouraged me to teach English without a WP. Almost daily. And when I responded that I didn't have the right visa, so I couldn't, without an exception they all stated 'Who cares!'

This has nothing to do with 'how Thailand feels' about farangs teaching English in Thailand - or probably taxes, either. It's about picking on soft targets to put in the newspaper and pretend that foreigners are a bigger problem for Thailand than the lack of elections, and the million other problems Thailand is ignoring.

Hear hear

[mommysboy]

Yes the law is the law. Just difficult for me to equate a minor breach of the law with the rough handed treatment you might expect for dealing drugs. And some have work permits too and are in minor breach. Still so be it and I trust there will be no complaint from critics if they fall foul too say by accidentally jumping a red light or absent mindedly walking out a bar without settling the bill. Law's the law now!

[wolf5370]

Anyone know what type of work permit they could apply for in order to work 'online'?

I thought head honcho was quoted saying, a few months back now when all this recent visa fuss started, that these online workers were not the problem or indeed a problem? And although he didn't go as far to say it, he pretty much said these online types will be given a sort of carte Blanche. Albeit, yes this is Thailand and everything has to be taken with kilo of salt. Must be a bit of a worry for other online workers... Just saying...

Dashing off a few work related emails from the beach, posting on your well sponsored blog from your hotel room, or trading a few shekels on the Forex from poolside aren't a problem if you're a genuine tourist.

Working full time in an office as an unofficial resident without proper work permits (and a tax number) is a problem.

...but they are both illegal under the letter of the law, and as most have said here, the law is the law. So off to gaol for those who email their boss or clients whilst on holiday.

[gemini81]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

They were not committing a crime,?????

going on what the report the reporting said they WERE committing crimes in some cases SEVERAL

But less appalling than the responses on thaivisa, which seem more evil and criminal than a couple of TEFL guys teaching to Chinese. I mean really, who cares?

[rapom]

thai people should speech no fluent english only broken english as english is now officialy the language for the second class.

Persons non fluent, unable to spell and use proper grammar, in writing the English language, should refrain from doing so.

Persons who are not fluent in writing the English language, unable to spell and use proper grammar, should refrain from doing so. - would have been more correct.

Do you quote, The Bible or the English King James translation. Either one, would get the point across.

[Bignose]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

It's not a case of whether they are "harming nobody" They are working illegally and will now suffer the consequences.

They were stationed at a work place using computer equipment which was presumably supplied by their employer, they were being financially rewarded for their knowledge, skills and time. I don't know many countries that would not consider that as being "employed"

Thailand is no different to most other countries, they have rules and laws, break them at your peril and suffer for your mistake.

Why is that such a hard concept to understand?

[John1thru10]

Good give them death penalty, so tired off watching all the Thai bashing club, meet me in Nikon court 29 January and we will see who are the f.u.c.k.i.n.g boss. Thaivisa this is thaisvisa haha

Please.

Edited January 23, 2015 by John1thru10

[beb]

Wow, all the vitriol over some people getting popped without work permits. I don't chime in here very much anymore but here are my 2 cents.

I'm pretty sure work permits aren't that important if your business has everything wrapped up in other areas. These sorts of raids aren't designed to stop the white devil from depriving locals of work. There simply are very few Thais with the English skills to qualify for such a position (I can't speak to the English skills of the westerners in question). But, you might say, there has to be some Thais with decent English capabilities. Well, I'm sure they are but chances are they are highly educated and worth a lot more in other industries. They aren't looking to teach English in that situation. The fact is, the Thais Teaching English have skills similar to locals teaching English in other countries, very low. Certainly not at any level close to fluency.

For those that are outraged that somebody dared to break a law in Thailand, I think you're being a bit naive. IMHO these raids have nothing to do with anybody really giving a damn about work permits.

[Jingthing]

I well understand why that joint was busted.

But it doesn't follow that someone doing some discreet offsite computer based work at their home in Thailand that has nothing to do with Thailand is really on the enforcement radar.

Because it isn't.

Unless it's something like porn or drug dealing of course!

[gandalf12]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

They were not committing a crime,?????

going on what the report the reporting said they WERE committing crimes in some cases SEVERAL

But less appalling than the responses on thaivisa, which seem more evil and criminal than a couple of TEFL guys teaching to Chinese. I mean really, who cares?

Under THai law they were committing a crime. Doesnt matter what happens in other countries it is the law of Thailand

[John1thru10]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

It's not a case of whether they are "harming nobody" They are working illegally and will now suffer the consequences.

They were stationed at a work place using computer equipment which was presumably supplied by their employer, they were being financially rewarded for their knowledge, skills and time. I don't know many countries that would not consider that as being "employed"

Thailand is no different to most other countries, they have rules and laws, break them at your peril and suffer for your mistake.

Why is that such a hard concept to understand?

Why would anyone so stuffy possibly want to live in SE Asia anyway? So you can turn it into Walt Disney World resort?

[aaron goodman]

A warning to all of you who think they can make up the rules as they go along. It is illegal to work without work permit as it is to overstay thinking that you are smarter than the average bear. I hope that they do some jail time before they are thrown out

[wolf5370]

Can't manage to catch those who possess/make/sell fake passports and engage in people trafficking but nab a few would-be TEFLERS.

Thai police seem to manage to apprehend a lot of foreigners who've been charged, even convicted and sometime briefly incarcerated in foreign countries, but who manage to slip through the fingers of the "superior" farang police and immigrations in those countries. The prisons here seem to be packed to capacity, so Thai police appear to apprehend a fair number of local criminals. Do you really think they should not enforce the laws against all levels of crime until they first catch all the "priority" bad guys?

The countries that Thai Visa farang come from certainly are constantly tracking down, arresting, incarcerating & deporting foreigners who are illegally resident in their countries and/or working there ... often doing work that their own nationals won't do, spending money in those countries, sometimes even paying taxes. In many cases the work those illegals do is vital to local economies and harming no one, but they are still tracked down, arrested and deported. Does that mean all the serious criminal the Farangland have been caught and the only thing left for the police to worry about is someone picking cabbages without a work permit in California?

On Thai Visa it often seems the most heinous crimes involve beach chair concessionaires, jet ski operators, shop owners who park illegally or lottery ticket sellers that charge more than the set price. Not often you see the farang apologists proclaiming that these "crimes" harm no one or that these people spend their money in the local economy.

It's not really about how petty the crime is or that no one is harmed. The deciding factor here seems almost always to do with the race/nationality of those caught. If they're farang, then the police and authorities are being unfair. But if some Thais cross the legal line or inconvenience Khun Farang, then they should be dealt with severely.

"On Thai Visa it often seems the most heinous crimes involve beach chair concessionaires, jet ski operators, shop owners who park illegally or lottery ticket sellers that charge more than the set price. Not often you see the farang apologists proclaiming that these "crimes" harm no one or that these people spend their money in the local economy."

I guess that would be because these people do harm the economy and do cause harm others with their theft, violence and intimidation. Are you really suggesting that a foreigner here, teaching another foreigner in another country, is somehow comparable to a jet ski operator defrauding 1000's out of tourists at the point of a gun or club and complicit policeman? Apologists? Man you really have a strange outlook on life!

How about asking a like for like. How many farangs here would object to a Thai, with a valid visa, in their own countries (lets say the USA for the sake of somewhere relevant), logging in a teaching Thai to someone in a third country (say China ) for money, which is then spent in the USA and thus enters the USA economy? Hand up! Anyone?

So, don't be absurd - these are not vicious criminals, thugs or thieves. They are people providing a service for very little money, that Thais cannot provide, that only bring money into the country - that have no way of providing within a legal framework where getting up in the morning is officially illegal without a WP, and where there is no "self employed" WP to cover it anyway.

[impulse]

But less appalling than the responses on thaivisa, which seem more evil and criminal than a couple of TEFL guys teaching to Chinese. I mean really, who cares?

Who cares?

Every legitimate tourist and legal long stay foreigner who is now getting the latex glove treatment at immigration. And all those who may be getting the latex glove in the future.

Edited January 23, 2015 by impulse

[John1thru10]

A warning to all of you who think they can make up the rules as they go along. It is illegal to work without work permit as it is to overstay thinking that you are smarter than the average bear. I hope that they do some jail time before they are thrown out

I hope you end up alone in a nursing home.

Edited January 23, 2015 by John1thru10

[Thai at Heart]

It's an interesting case as they were provided services outside of Thailand, but I assume the payments to them were processed within Thailand. There has been a lot of discussion over the years that internet work where there are no Thai clients, no Thai banking involvement for payment, etc. is more or less "OK" as far as work permit laws ... sometimes even confirmed by some immigration offices. I know purists will say NEVER but in real life that isn't really so. Talking about stuff done in private as well usually from a home ... this place has a physical business office location so that would be different.

Why they couldn't have done the same thing from home is beyond me. The so called employer needed to have these guys working at distance from home and no one would have been any the wiser.

[chickenrunCM]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

OK, not harming anyone.

So if I open a company that offers the same service but pay 50.000 / month , work permits, social , taxes.

Then this company turns up with the same service but does it illegally and can therefor undercut me, they are not harming anyone?

Yes so why you not open a company pay 2000000 baht for each foreign staff and employ 4 useless thai staff for each foreign worker? it means 17 People = 34.000.000 Baht you have to bring in the the limited company and employ 68 Thais, yes for sure this would make you the most expensive online Language School in the word,

Thai laws not enable to make this bussines leagal, thats why this companys exist,

its not about digital normads, they not have a problem, because if you you do it on your own from where ever, nobody can harm you, but a company with employees, office, and for sure accounting, has a high risk

[thaitakeaway]

... That being said, skilled English speakers are in very, very short supply in the Kingdom, and one might think that attracting and supporting teaching this valuable skill would create a special exception to a general rule.

Nah, actually it's a plot to re-purpose some TESOL dudes/dudettes & redeploy them to the North East. Called kidnapping in other parts of the world.

Lucky the company concerned hadn't placed this Philippines ad of theirs in CM or it might have been a nice little haul for some officer wanting real recognition. Yes, you read right - 500 online tutors! From 1 office. OMG.

[cookee68]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

They was they was cutting the BIB out of a bit of tea money, who the Shit were they hurting

[DiamondKing]

A warning to all of you who think they can make up the rules as they go along. It is illegal to work without work permit as it is to overstay thinking that you are smarter than the average bear. I hope that they do some jail time before they are thrown out

GREAT 2nd Post grab yourself a cookie

Did you really open a new account so you could add this comment or was the title SO COMPELLING that you just had to join TV and have your amazing opinon in writing

[wow64]

Still in prison?

They should have killed someone so they could be released on bail.

[impulse]

Why they couldn't have done the same thing from home is beyond me. The so called employer needed to have these guys working at distance from home and no one would have been any the wiser.

Time zones. UK and US based, they'd be working during prime drinking and "sleeping it off" hours if their market was Chinese students.

Oh, and taxes (and probably minimum wage laws).

[DiamondKing]

But less appalling than the responses on thaivisa, which seem more evil and criminal than a couple of TEFL guys teaching to Chinese. I mean really, who cares?

Who cares?

Every legitimate tourist and legal long stay foreigner who is now getting the latex glove treatment at immigration. And all those who may be getting the latex glove in the future.

You sound like you definately deserve the latex glove treatment

[impulse]

But less appalling than the responses on thaivisa, which seem more evil and criminal than a couple of TEFL guys teaching to Chinese. I mean really, who cares?

Who cares?

Every legitimate tourist and legal long stay foreigner who is now getting the latex glove treatment at immigration. And all those who may be getting the latex glove in the future.

You sound like you definately deserve the latex glove treatment

Nah. Legal work permit with BOI company and once that's over, no desire to stay.

But reading stories of guys separated from their Thai families by the new, more rigid enforcement (coupled with lack of funds to play by the rules) does tug at my heart strings.

A problem you don't seem to be afflicted by.

[John1thru10]

But less appalling than the responses on thaivisa, which seem more evil and criminal than a couple of TEFL guys teaching to Chinese. I mean really, who cares?

Who cares?

Every legitimate tourist and legal long stay foreigner who is now getting the latex glove treatment at immigration. And all those who may be getting the latex glove in the future.

You sound like you definately deserve the latex glove treatment

It's like he's blaming the McCarthy hearings on communists.

[chickenrunCM]

I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

I dont know that people here on Thai Visa dont understand, no goverment or state can give a work permit for someone who is working outside the country, because if they would, the work permit would be value inside Thailand,

I would be happy to make a registration for my work in Thailand, but it is not possible by law,

and not possible in realuity, how somebody find 2 thai partners who pay 51% 1020000 Baht into a company?

many jobs do not need employees, but you forced to have,

So please all the TV members, who writing here how they do all legually, are lying, the paid all the money into the company, not only 49%, the use nominees (wife, family, laywers) to keep the control, this is also a crime and a much bigger, because you signing false documents and statements,

the person who teach online outside thailand do nothing against the law, because by international law all taxes aply in the country where the service is delivered, so if i teach in China, then only there I breaking the law if any, not in Thailand,

I wish all the TV memebrs who are so correct in there life in Thailand, they they get target in their activities, house on wifes or company names, fkae bussines partners aso, then you will hear a big shouting about the unfair law.

Dont judge other people who want to make their living in a country where law is back 30 years behind reality and if the law is good then it is not afforcable.

[beb]

Good give them death penalty, so tired off watching all the Thai bashing club, meet me in Nikon court 29 January and we will see who are the f.u.c.k.i.n.g boss. Thaivisa this is thaisvisa haha

Um, are we actually calling people out here? Has everybody gone bonkers?

[Nemesis7]

"No work permits were three Americans, a Canadian, a German, a Dutch national, two Irish nationals, two Britons and two Australians."

Really no way, American, Canadian , Brits, Irish German and a Dutch ? They can't be doing wrong??

They are the quality tourists here right?

Send them back to where they came from

[Hawkman]

But less appalling than the responses on thaivisa, which seem more evil and criminal than a couple of TEFL guys teaching to Chinese. I mean really, who cares?

Who cares?

Every legitimate tourist and legal long stay foreigner who is now getting the latex glove treatment at immigration. And all those who may be getting the latex glove in the future.

You sound like you definately deserve the latex glove treatment

lol. Agree. Really odd and funny seeing these people on this forum thinking some people without WPs is the most heinous crime out there and that it affects them somehow; it doesn't.

As someone brilliantly put above, what if the tables were reversed and some Thai person in the UK or somewhere went online and made some money teaching Thai to someone in China; would they be up in arms about this? No. Bunch of hypocrites, bitters and whingers who can't seem to relax without wondering what others are up to.