Tourist And Retirement Visa Ponderings

[Maui John]

Aloha from Maui,

I am helping a disabled friend (American) move to Thailand. She can't type very well thus I'm doing the internet inquiries for her.

She will be 50 years old in January and is not married to a Thai and has no intention to work in Thailand. Here are a few questions:

1) Before commiting to a retirment visa, she wants to try out living in Thailand full time for a year. Is a 60 day tourist visa (with 30 day extension) the best way for her to do this trial year in terms of visas? Are 90 day visa renewal intervals as long as she can get without getting the retirement visa?

2) The retirement visa requires 800,000 baht in a Thai bank, or 65,000 baht per month income, or a combination of both. For the sake of example, say she has 44,000 baht in monthly income. How do I figure the "combination of both" part. Do I subtract 44,000 from 65,000 yielding 21,000. And then to figure out how much needs to be deposited in a Thai bank do I multiply 21,000 baht by 12 to get 252,000 baht?

3) What do they count as income? Is it only pensions or social security? Or does it include investment income from things like mutual funds and rental income from real estate holdings?

Thanks for your help!

John

[rogercw]

Aloha from Maui,

I am helping a disabled friend (American) move to Thailand. She can't type very well thus I'm doing the internet inquiries for her.

She will be 50 years old in January and is not married to a Thai and has no intention to work in Thailand. Here are a few questions:

1) Before commiting to a retirment visa, she wants to try out living in Thailand full time for a year. Is a 60 day tourist visa (with 30 day extension) the best way for her to do this trial year in terms of visas? Are 90 day visa renewal intervals as long as she can get without getting the retirement visa?

2) The retirement visa requires 800,000 baht in a Thai bank, or 65,000 baht per month income, or a combination of both. For the sake of example, say she has 44,000 baht in monthly income. How do I figure the "combination of both" part. Do I subtract 44,000 from 65,000 yielding 21,000. And then to figure out how much needs to be deposited in a Thai bank do I multiply 21,000 baht by 12 to get 252,000 baht?

3) What do they count as income? Is it only pensions or social security? Or does it include investment income from things like mutual funds and rental income from real estate holdings?

Thanks for your help!

John

You multiply the monthly income of 44,000 baht by 12 , getting an annual income of 528,000 baht. Subtract this from 800,000 and the result is a required bank account balance of 272,000 baht. They normally would not count investment income.

[lopburi3]

90 days is the longest visa permitted stay. If she can convince a Consulate to issue a multi entry non immigrant O visa that is best. But may not be possible. It will take more than "a" tourist visa to stay one year.

[Maui John]

90 days is the longest visa permitted stay. If she can convince a Consulate to issue a multi entry non immigrant O visa that is best. But may not be possible. It will take more than "a" tourist visa to stay one year.

Thanks to you both for the advice.

Why is a multi entry visa better? Don't you have to leave after 90 days no matter what?

Do they allow you to keep getting new tourist visas for perpetuity? Or do they eventually tell you enough is enough after a while?

Thanks again.

[lopburi3]

Unless you are prepared to extend your stay for a valid reason (such as retirement) and meet the conditions 90 days is the longest visa permitted stay.

A multi entry non immigrant visa has a validity of one year. You only have to cross a border and return. This is every 90 days

A tourist visa has a validly of 3 month single and only six months for a higher number so it (one visa) could not cover one year and that would require a new application for visa at an Embassy outside of Thailand. To stay 90 days requires a trip to immigration and extra payment for extension of 30 days.

Tourist visa 'can' be limited but there is no fixed rule. When restricted it is usually a limited to 3 in a row.

[Maui John]

Unless you are prepared to extend your stay for a valid reason (such as retirement) and meet the conditions 90 days is the longest visa permitted stay.

A multi entry non immigrant visa has a validity of one year. You only have to cross a border and return. This is every 90 days

A tourist visa has a validly of 3 month single and only six months for a higher number so it (one visa) could not cover one year and that would require a new application for visa at an Embassy outside of Thailand. To stay 90 days requires a trip to immigration and extra payment for extension of 30 days.

Tourist visa 'can' be limited but there is no fixed rule. When restricted it is usually a limited to 3 in a row.

I was under the impression that people live years on end in Thailand via a never ending string of tourist visas. Is that incorrect?

The requirements for the multi entry non immigrant one year visa seem to be wide ranging. Everything from "business activity" to a sport coach. Do they require lots of documentation to qualify, or can you just say with a wink "looking for investment opportunities" and off you go?

[lopburi3]

The question was what is best for a one year period while making up mind on retirement. Yes - there are people here making border runs for a 30 day entry every month and some have done this for a long period of time. Not most peoples idea of a good life and if disabled would not expect it to be very comfortable. Of course if you live on the border I might be wrong. But this is very much a toss of the dice as to how long it can be done. People have been told after the 3rd crossing not to return - others have not. But the fact is that this is not the purpose of the 30 day entry and it can be cut off at any time. There are also some who obtain a tourist visa at a Consulate and extend and exit and repeat. Again no official status and subject to change at any time. In both cases I believe the overwhelming majority would prefer to have a long stay visa of some type if they were qualified and could obtain it. As your friend seems to have the means I would expect her to do that.

You need to ask the Consulate what they require to issue a non immigrant visa as it is not the same at all. Most have email service and can answer your questions.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Aloha from Maui,

I am helping a disabled friend (American) move to Thailand. She can't type very well thus I'm doing the internet inquiries for her.

She will be 50 years old in January and is not married to a Thai and has no intention to work in Thailand. Here are a few questions:

1) Before commiting to a retirment visa, she wants to try out living in Thailand full time for a year. Is a 60 day tourist visa (with 30 day extension) the best way for her to do this trial year in terms of visas? Are 90 day visa renewal intervals as long as she can get without getting the retirement visa?

2) The retirement visa requires 800,000 baht in a Thai bank, or 65,000 baht per month income, or a combination of both. For the sake of example, say she has 44,000 baht in monthly income. How do I figure the "combination of both" part. Do I subtract 44,000 from 65,000 yielding 21,000. And then to figure out how much needs to be deposited in a Thai bank do I multiply 21,000 baht by 12 to get 252,000 baht?

3) What do they count as income? Is it only pensions or social security? Or does it include investment income from things like mutual funds and rental income from real estate holdings?

Thanks for your help!

John

John,

Have your friend just get a single 90 day visa. We can do a one year extension of stay based on retirement here. She will need to just go to the USA Embassy here and get a letter. No proof of income is needed at the Embassy to get the required letter of income but at other Embassies... pensions, social security, investment income and rental income all count to get the income letter. At others its just pensions.

If she arrived in Thailand with a 60 day tourist visa, this can be changed to a "O" and then the extension can be done. But she should arrive with at least a 60 day tourist or 90 day "O" visa to get the one year extension done. This way she will not need to leave every 90 days.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Thaiquila]

If you arrive in Thailand with an O visa, how many days before the end of the 90 stay should you begin the application process for the conversion to a one year extension (based of retirement)? I have heard different opinions here.

Edited August 19, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Sunbelt Asia]

If you arrive in Thailand with an O visa, how many days before the end of the 90 stay should you begin the application process for the conversion to a one year extension (based of retirement)? I have heard different opinions here.

Around 21 - 30 days remaining.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Axel]

Start at the beginning of the last 30 days.

I do it all the time, albeit with an extented 'B'.

[Maui John]

Aloha from Maui,

I am helping a disabled friend (American) move to Thailand. She can't type very well thus I'm doing the internet inquiries for her.

She will be 50 years old in January and is not married to a Thai and has no intention to work in Thailand. Here are a few questions:

1) Before commiting to a retirment visa, she wants to try out living in Thailand full time for a year. Is a 60 day tourist visa (with 30 day extension) the best way for her to do this trial year in terms of visas? Are 90 day visa renewal intervals as long as she can get without getting the retirement visa?

2) The retirement visa requires 800,000 baht in a Thai bank, or 65,000 baht per month income, or a combination of both. For the sake of example, say she has 44,000 baht in monthly income. How do I figure the "combination of both" part. Do I subtract 44,000 from 65,000 yielding 21,000. And then to figure out how much needs to be deposited in a Thai bank do I multiply 21,000 baht by 12 to get 252,000 baht?

3) What do they count as income? Is it only pensions or social security? Or does it include investment income from things like mutual funds and rental income from real estate holdings?

Thanks for your help!

John

John,

Have your friend just get a single 90 day visa. We can do a one year extension of stay based on retirement here. She will need to just go to the USA Embassy here and get a letter. No proof of income is needed at the Embassy to get the required letter of income but at other Embassies... pensions, social security, investment income and rental income all count to get the income letter. At others its just pensions.

If she arrived in Thailand with a 60 day tourist visa, this can be changed to a "O" and then the extension can be done. But she should arrive with at least a 60 day tourist or 90 day "O" visa to get the one year extension done. This way she will not need to leave every 90 days.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thanks for your reply. Something like your service would be a good way for her to go. Here are some questions:

1) Are you saying that she can go to the USA embassy in Bangkok and get a letter? What sort of letter? A proof of income letter but without proof of income?

2) You say no proof of income is needed at the Embassy. Do you mean the USA Embassy in Thailand or the Thai Embassy in the USA? Are you saying that the USA Embassy in Thailand doesn't require proof of income? But the USA Embassy isn't the one issuing the visa, the Thai government issues the visa. I'm confused by what you mean.

3) What do you mean by "at other Embassies pension, social security, and investment income all count towards the proof of income." What other Embassies?

4) Then you say "at others it's just pension." Once again, what other embassies? Other American Embassies around the world? Other Thai Embassies? I'm confused.

5) Your website says you charge 33,000 baht to convert a 60 day tourist visa into a type "O" visa that does not require that one leave over 90 days. What do you charge to handle the retirement visa?

Thanks again!

[backflip]

1) Are you saying that she can go to the USA embassy in Bangkok and get a letter? What sort of letter? A proof of income letter but without proof of income?

>>A proof of income/pension letter. You don't need "proof", but you do need 1200THB for the notorized letter from the US embassy.

2) You say no proof of income is needed at the Embassy. Do you mean the USA Embassy in Thailand or the Thai Embassy in the USA? Are you saying that the USA Embassy in Thailand doesn't require proof of income? But the USA Embassy isn't the one issuing the visa, the Thai government issues the visa. I'm confused by what you mean.

>>I guess this question needs to be answered several times for you. You need to apply for this letter from the US embassy located in BKK. If you were a Thai citizen, you'd visit the Thai embassy. If you are Australian, the Australian embassy. I hope you get the picture. When you get the letter, you apply for the visa from, get this, Thai Immigration...also located in Bangkok. Just how handy is that?

3) What do you mean by "at other Embassies pension, social security, and investment income all count towards the proof of income." What other Embassies?

>>Read my posting above, and you'll get the picture. Maybe.

4) Then you say "at others it's just pension." Once again, what other embassies? Other American Embassies around the world? Other Thai Embassies? I'm confused.

>>Oh, for God's sakes.

5) Your website says you charge 33,000 baht to convert a 60 day tourist visa into a type "O" visa that does not require that one leave over 90 days. What do you charge to handle the retirement visa?

>>You can do it for free? Why pay anyone?

[Maui John]

1) Are you saying that she can go to the USA embassy in Bangkok and get a letter? What sort of letter? A proof of income letter but without proof of income?

>>A proof of income/pension letter. You don't need "proof", but you do need 1200THB for the notorized letter from the US embassy.

2) You say no proof of income is needed at the Embassy. Do you mean the USA Embassy in Thailand or the Thai Embassy in the USA? Are you saying that the USA Embassy in Thailand doesn't require proof of income? But the USA Embassy isn't the one issuing the visa, the Thai government issues the visa. I'm confused by what you mean.

>>I guess this question needs to be answered several times for you. You need to apply for this letter from the US embassy located in BKK. If you were a Thai citizen, you'd visit the Thai embassy. If you are Australian, the Australian embassy. I hope you get the picture. When you get the letter, you apply for the visa from, get this, Thai Immigration...also located in Bangkok. Just how handy is that?

3) What do you mean by "at other Embassies pension, social security, and investment income all count towards the proof of income." What other Embassies?

>>Read my posting above, and you'll get the picture. Maybe.

4) Then you say "at others it's just pension." Once again, what other embassies? Other American Embassies around the world? Other Thai Embassies? I'm confused.

>>Oh, for God's sakes.

5) Your website says you charge 33,000 baht to convert a 60 day tourist visa into a type "O" visa that does not require that one leave over 90 days. What do you charge to handle the retirement visa?

>>You can do it for free? Why pay anyone?

Aloha Backflip,

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, however, there is no need for the condescending attitude. I was responding to a very poorly worded reply by the visa agency dude that was very unprecise it what it was saying.

It still makes no sense to me why you have to go to the American Embassy to get a letter that has to do with proof of income to get a Thai immigration visa. What in the world does the American Embassy have to do with either my income or my Thai visa? From a logistical perspective, it makes no sense. And to even further defy logic, you claim that I can get a letter from the American Embassy to do with proof of income that doesn't require that I show proof of income!

Only an idiot would not at least take the time to question this "mysterious American Embassy letter".

On the Thai government website it states very cleary that one must provide proof of income and or deposit money in a Thai bank in order to get a retirment visa. It says nothing about getting a letter from one's own embassy that absolves one from the income requirements.

I'm not saying your claim in regards to the American Embassy are wrong, but your claim is a large deviation from what the Thai government claims on their website are the requirements for the retirement visa. Doesn't it stand to reason that an intelligent person would give a bit more credence to the Thai government's own website over the claims of unknown entities on an internet discussion forum? And from that basis, wouldn't an intelligent person ask questions to clarify what the unknown internet entities are claiming, especially given the contradiction?

Perhaps you know this visa dance backwards and forwards, I do not. You may be absolutely correct about the American Embassy mystery letter. But before I have my disabled friend fly half way around the world to make a new life, I'm going to make sure I have the visa issue absolutely clear in my mind.

Certainly that isn't so bad, now is it.

When dealing with legal matters it's very important to get wording very clear so that there will be no problems down the road.

Once again, please explain the following:

1) What precisely is this "letter" from the American Embassy. What is it called? When you go into the Embassy, what do I ask for? I certainly can't say "please give me the letter Backflip talks about and assumes all the world's citizens know about from birth".

2) How can a letter from the American Embassy in Bangkok allow one to be free of the income requirements of the government of Thailand?

Throwing up your hands and saying "for God sakes" doesn't bring any sort of clarity. It only shows that you have a big frown in the land of smiles

Thanks again,

John

[wpcoe]

Maui John: The last time I was at the US Embassy in BKK to add pages to my passport I inquired about the "verification of income" form. They showed me a single sheet of paper for ME to fill out and to specify my pension income. I was told it would be notarized (can't recall, but the THB1200 quoted above sounds about right) by the Embassy, and that no supporting documentation is required. You then present this notarized-at-the-US-Embassy form letter as proof of pension income to the Thai Immigration official processing the retirement visa request.

So to recap: The Thai Immigration official wants proof of pension income, and routinely accepts the notarized form letter from the US Embassy. The US Embassy will notarize the form regardless what amount you put for pension income.

That said, I wouldn't be tempted to exaggerate TOO much on the form and say, for example, that your pension is US$1,000,000 per month. If for any reason the Thai Immigration officer thinks s/he smells a rat and requests further documentation (I've never heard of that happening, but let's face it if could happen) you'd likely be risking having your visa voided and being deported for providing false information to a Thai Immigrations officer. If your friend is honest with the pension amount and can, on request, provide documentation to back up what the form letter says, there should be no problem.

[wpcoe]

Maui John: Are you aware that there is an Honorary Thai Consulate on O'ahu? See: http://www.thaiembdc.org/directry/direc_e.htm#HI

If your friend is pretty sure she is inclined to go for the retirement visa, she can probably apply for an O-A visa through Mr. Miyabara. An e-mail or phone call might prove helpful.

I'm planning to obtain my retirement visa before the end of the year, and have been asking tons of questions, including here on ThaiVisa, and think I have a good grasp on the options and the procedures. Lopburi3 has been a patient font of information.

One way to get the retirement visa is to do the entire process in the US: It will require a police report in addition to the health check, income/savings verification, photos, etc. A benefit is that you can keep the money in the US for an extra year. You WILL need to bring the money into Thailand once you start getting the annual one-year extensions, but that's not going to be until one year after you enter Thailand. This method of getting the retirement visa in the US before setting foot on Thai soil is referred to as an O-A visa.

The other way to get the retirement visa is to enter Thailand on some other (i.e. NOT an O-A) type of visa, whether a plain old O visa or a tourist visa. Then once you are in Thailand you get the income verification from the American Embassy in BKK, get a health clearance form from a Thai doctor, etc, but you do NOT need a police report. (You will only need a police report when getting the O-A visa before you get to Thailand.) Then you initiate the retirement visa application process at a Thai Immigrations office in Thailand.

It might be easier for you and your friend to deal with the Honorary Thai Counsul in Honolulu and have all her ducks in a row before getting to Thailand than the doing-it-all-in-Thailand option. The worse that could happen is that she arrives with the O-A visa and then decides she does NOT like living in Thailand. Still, overall, the comfort of dealing with the bureaucracy while still on the A'ina might be of significant value. Mailing her passport to another island might be preferrable to physically running errands in Thailand, such as to the American Embassy in BKK.

Lopburi3, and others, please feel free to refine/correct my advice and information to Maui John. I understand only too well his confusion and frustration.!

Edited August 24, 2006 by wpcoe

[F1 Visa Runner]

John,

Have your friend just get a single 90 day visa. We can do a one year extension of stay based on retirement here. She will need to just go to the USA Embassy here and get a letter. No proof of income is needed at the Embassy to get the required letter of income but at other Embassies... pensions, social security, investment income and rental income all count to get the income letter. At others its just pensions.

If she arrived in Thailand with a 60 day tourist visa, this can be changed to a "O" and then the extension can be done. But she should arrive with at least a 60 day tourist or 90 day "O" visa to get the one year extension done. This way she will not need to leave every 90 days.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Aloha Backflip,

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, however, there is no need for the condescending attitude. I was responding to a very poorly worded reply by the visa agency dude that was very unprecise it what it was saying.

It still makes no sense to me why you have to go to the American Embassy to get a letter that has to do with proof of income to get a Thai immigration visa. What in the world does the American Embassy have to do with either my income or my Thai visa? From a logistical perspective, it makes no sense. And to even further defy logic, you claim that I can get a letter from the American Embassy to do with proof of income that doesn't require that I show proof of income!

Only an idiot would not at least take the time to question this "mysterious American Embassy letter".

I`ll have to agree with backlip here John. Also you are saying that Sunbelt gave you a poorly worded reply that was unprecise. I don think that was nice words to someone that took their time answering your questions

He gave you a pretty straigth forward answer that was easy to understand. I think rather you messed it up with all your counter questions of little means.

As you are using the words idiot, any idiot should also know that immigrations around the world need official papers and not anything like handwritten notes with " I make about 50.000 US a year".

As being an American citizen in Thailand who do you think is your offical "government office" to support you? That would be the American Embassy.. thats why the paper is issued there.

About the case its likely to belive that your friend also have some issues with the income as you where looking into a combination of income and cash.

I think the best way for her will be as sunbelt posted. Dont have to think much about these things then.

Get a 60 day visa and send the disable old chick down here for some 1 year relaxing. Change it to a "O" visa down here.

[Maui John]

Maui John: Are you aware that there is an Honorary Thai Consulate on O'ahu? See: http://www.thaiembdc.org/directry/direc_e.htm#HI

If your friend is pretty sure she is inclined to go for the retirement visa, she can probably apply for an O-A visa through Mr. Miyabara. An e-mail or phone call might prove helpful.

I'm planning to obtain my retirement visa before the end of the year, and have been asking tons of questions, including here on ThaiVisa, and think I have a good grasp on the options and the procedures. Lopburi3 has been a patient font of information.

One way to get the retirement visa is to do the entire process in the US: It will require a police report in addition to the health check, income/savings verification, photos, etc. A benefit is that you can keep the money in the US for an extra year. You WILL need to bring the money into Thailand once you start getting the annual one-year extensions, but that's not going to be until one year after you enter Thailand. This method of getting the retirement visa in the US before setting foot on Thai soil is referred to as an O-A visa.

The other way to get the retirement visa is to enter Thailand on some other (i.e. NOT an O-A) type of visa, whether a plain old O visa or a tourist visa. Then once you are in Thailand you get the income verification from the American Embassy in BKK, get a health clearance form from a Thai doctor, etc, but you do NOT need a police report. (You will only need a police report when getting the O-A visa before you get to Thailand.) Then you initiate the retirement visa application process at a Thai Immigrations office in Thailand.

It might be easier for you and your friend to deal with the Honorary Thai Counsul in Honolulu and have all her ducks in a row before getting to Thailand than the doing-it-all-in-Thailand option. The worse that could happen is that she arrives with the O-A visa and then decides she does NOT like living in Thailand. Still, overall, the comfort of dealing with the bureaucracy while still on the A'ina might be of significant value. Mailing her passport to another island might be preferrable to physically running errands in Thailand, such as to the American Embassy in BKK.

Lopburi3, and others, please feel free to refine/correct my advice and information to Maui John. I understand only too well his confusion and frustration.!

Visa Runner: That's ok, we can agree to disagree. I still feel the Sunbelt response was not clear at all. I also feel backflip was very condescending and uninformative. Just because someone replies to my post doesn't mean I have to fall to their feet and wash their toes. If both Sunbelt and Backflip relate to my reply properly, they'll take it as a challenge that leads to higher level of communication on their part. I'm not a politician, I say what I think

Wpcoe: On the other hand, your reply was very clear and informative, Mahalo Plenny! I now understand what the "mystery letter" is all about and have a better grasp on the retirement visa situation.

My friend is going to give Thailand a try for 3 - 4 months (on tourist visas) and see what she thinks. She has to return to Maui by March to catch the Dalai Lama's first visit to the island. If she's still likes Thailand, she'll return for good, and I think you are correct, the consulate in Oahu is the way to go. She has the legit funds, thus nothing to hide on that front.

Is it true that when you deposit the funds in a Thai bank for the renewal, that you can transfer the funds back out of Thailand once you get the extension, and then transfer them back in for the renewal process the following year?

Or do the funds have to remain in the Thai bank the whole year?

Thank again (including Sunbelt and Backflip),

John

[visarunner]

The money can be transferred out again after the extention has been granted .

For the duration of her next application of extention the required amount should be/remain in the Thai Bank .