A weak front end ?

[garryjohns]

Arrived in Pattaya to pick up our "translaters/pillion/bed warmers'' .ahead of trip north.

Saw this on local news.

I'm astounded that a bike that only ran into the rear of a smaller scooter[sadly killed the scooter rider] could suffer such damage.

I've seen forks bent way back under a bike and that takes hitting a fairly substantial object at a good speed.

Never seen them sheared off as in the picture here.

Obviously quite high speed impact but as i said it was only into the rear of a stopped scooter.

Any input on this?

and the scooter it hit

Edited January 26, 2015 by garryjohns

[kiniyow]

Many that get on these Super Fast Racing Bikes think Wide open is the way to go thus Killing anyone on a smaller Bike...RIP At these speeds they can cut a Car in half...The driver should be prosecuted to the full extent allowed by Law...

[garryjohns]

Many that get on these Super Fast Racing Bikes think Wide open is the way to go thus Killing anyone on a smaller Bike...RIP At these speeds they can cut a Car in half...The driver should be prosecuted to the full extent allowed by Law...

Yes,yes and yes, but i asked this in regard to the engineering dynamics .

Please don't turn such a thing into a bash fest.

The bike [which looks like a smaller cc one] suffered a major front end fracture.

It only hit a small, light, moveable object which even at high speed should not, IMO have caused such damage.

Look at the scooter, rear end totalled as one would expect in rear end hit, but not appearing anywhere near the destruction that the bigger big did.

Point being that there could well be a major design fault in that model.

Edited January 26, 2015 by garryjohns

[ll2]

I was passing from the accident scene. It is 2 km to my home. Looks like kawa hit the wave at high speed as there were slide marks like 30 meters.

Where accident happen, there is an unofficial junction and of course a bit chaotic. Kawa hits the wave from the middle. Looks like both could not do the timing. Rip.

[wantan]

> Any input on this?

> ...it was only into the rear of a stopped scooter.

Yes, here some input from me as a "small scooter rider": Imo another <deleted> big bike rider going high speed killing someone. Lock him up!

[dave_boo]

Wow, that ER-6 was going at a high rate of speed.

As far as can the Wave inflict that damage...sure. The rear axel is triangulated and as demonstrated from the picture very strong. It kept it shape and the scooter frame bent.

The front wheel of the ER-6 was shoved essentially straight back into the radiator (look at where the bend is in it). Looks like the head clamps did their job as you can see the remnants of the forks in them.

The only question I have is...why is the front wheel under the frame? Did someone stack it like that to have good pictures or was there more to the accident?

[papa al]

Many that get on these Super Fast Racing Bikes think Wide open is the way to go thus Killing anyone on a smaller Bike...RIP At these speeds they can cut a Car in half...The driver should be prosecuted to the full extent allowed by Law...

Yes,yes and yes, but i asked this in regard to the engineering dynamics .

Please don't turn such a thing into a bash fest.

The bike [which looks like a smaller cc one] suffered a major front end fracture.

It only hit a small, light, moveable object which even at high speed should not, IMO have caused such damage.

Look at the scooter, rear end totalled as one would expect in rear end hit, but not appearing anywhere near the destruction that the bigger big did.

Point being that there could well be a major design fault in that model.

Clearly, design fault in the bigger big.

[ktm jeff]

The fork legs are designed to shear off in such a high speed accident , in order to save the main bike frame. Almost like a crumple zone. Good bit of design there , unlike some bikes , where the frame bends , and rights the complete bike off .

[guzzi850m2]

I was passing from the accident scene. It is 2 km to my home. Looks like kawa hit the wave at high speed as there were slide marks like 30 meters.

Where accident happen, there is an unofficial junction and of course a bit chaotic. Kawa hits the wave from the middle. Looks like both could not do the timing. Rip.

You live in Pattaya II2?

http://www.pattayaone.net/pattaya-news/167095/ladyboy-show-performer-killed-in-south-pattaya-road-crash/

I don't know about the weak front end, seems like the "big" bike was going like mad within city limits and killed the passenger ladyboy on the small scooter, RIP.

I hope he go to jail for this.

When I was at the Kawa shop on Sukhumvit (Pattaya), I saw one big bike that passed the shop doing about 200 km/h, I don't understand anybody are crazy enough doing such speeds there man, it's madness, small scooters often cross the road there if they wants to U-turn. All the Thais at the shop (employees + customers) were laughing and though it was cool.

[garryjohns]

> Any input on this?

> ...it was only into the rear of a stopped scooter.

Yes, here some input from me as a "small scooter rider": Imo another <deleted> big bike rider going high speed killing someone. Lock him up!

I agree with you but read post#3

Edited January 27, 2015 by garryjohns

[ll2]

I was passing from the accident scene. It is 2 km to my home. Looks like kawa hit the wave at high speed as there were slide marks like 30 meters.

Where accident happen, there is an unofficial junction and of course a bit chaotic. Kawa hits the wave from the middle. Looks like both could not do the timing. Rip.

You live in Pattaya II2?

http://www.pattayaone.net/pattaya-news/167095/ladyboy-show-performer-killed-in-south-pattaya-road-crash/

I don't know about the weak front end, seems like the "big" bike was going like mad within city limits and killed the passenger ladyboy on the small scooter, RIP.

I hope he go to jail for this.

When I was at the Kawa shop on Sukhumvit (Pattaya), I saw one big bike that passed the shop doing about 200 km/h, I don't understand anybody are crazy enough doing such speeds there man, it's madness, small scooters often cross the road there if they wants to U-turn. All the Thais at the shop (employees + customers) were laughing and though it was cool.

man, strange. this sunday i have seen an accident involving a red wave 110 and a kawasaki, just 2 km away from my house and i thought it is that one but clearly not!

a very similar accident too. big bike hit the wave!

what a coincidence!

[garryjohns]

The fork legs are designed to shear off in such a high speed accident , in order to save the main bike frame. Almost like a crumple zone. Good bit of design there , unlike some bikes , where the frame bends , and rights the complete bike off .

In 30 years riding ive seen quite a few severe crashes and only one where the forktubes snapped .

That bike hit an immoveable concrete road barrier at over 160kph head on.[Through a T intersection up country]

In all others crashes the fork tubes bend as you would expect.

"Designed to shear off?" you say Never heard of this, not saying its not so, but show me such info please.

[papa al]

Wow, that ER-6 was going at a high rate of speed.

As far as can the Wave inflict that damage...sure. The rear axel is triangulated and as demonstrated from the picture very strong. It kept it shape and the scooter frame bent.

The front wheel of the ER-6 was shoved essentially straight back into the radiator (look at where the bend is in it). Looks like the head clamps did their job as you can see the remnants of the forks in them.

The only question I have is...why is the front wheel under the frame? Did someone stack it like that to have good pictures or was there more to the accident?

Wrecked pieces tend to flipflop around, and the front wheel, tethered by brake line & speedo cable, remained in proximity, ending up under the frame?

I know it sounds far-fetched.

More likely the pictures thing.

[ll2]

The fork legs are designed to shear off in such a high speed accident , in order to save the main bike frame. Almost like a crumple zone. Good bit of design there , unlike some bikes , where the frame bends , and rights the complete bike off .

In 30 years riding ive seen quite a few severe crashes and only one where the forktubes snapped .

That bike hit an immoveable concrete road barrier at over 160kph head on.[Through a T intersection up country]

In all others crashes the fork tubes bend as you would expect.

"Designed to shear off?" you say Never heard of this, not saying its not so, but show me such info please.

it looks like they stacked the front end with the bike for better photography as someone stated.

They drag these wrecked bikes around after accidents to move them out of the way.

[mikebike]

Looks to me like there was more than one impact... the impact with the scooter then flip and bounce impacts... possible the first impact stressed the metal then the following impact(s) caused the shear...

[Gweiloman]

> Any input on this?

> ...it was only into the rear of a stopped scooter.

Yes, here some input from me as a "small scooter rider": Imo another <deleted> big bike rider going high speed killing someone. Lock him up!

You shouldn't restrict it to big bike riders but should also include all motorists (be it scooters, cars, vans, pickups, trucks, buses, lorries).

There is no justification for going at an excessive speed through busy and built up roads. That's why, I, as both a scooter and big bike rider, ride at speeds appropriate to the situation.

[mikebike]

That's why, I, as both a scooter and big bike rider, ride at speeds appropriate to the situation.

Call me Wooden Spoon but I gotta ask... What is the safe speed? LOL!!

[speedthrills]

The fork legs are designed to shear off in such a high speed accident , in order to save the main bike frame. Almost like a crumple zone. Good bit of design there , unlike some bikes , where the frame bends , and rights the complete bike off .

hwhat you say are you kidding. that is totally madeup from you i hope .like joking. crazyness crumpole zone on motorcyc???

[Gweiloman]

That's why, I, as both a scooter and big bike rider, ride at speeds appropriate to the situation.

Call me Wooden Spoon but I gotta ask... What is the safe speed? LOL!!

It's not THE safe speed but A safe speed.

A safe speed is one whereby the rider is able to stop or take evasive action as necessary in order to avoid an accident, taken into account all the factors at play, such as road conditions (dry, wet, sandy, U turns, intersections), traffic conditions (density of traffic, other potential hazards such as cars changing lanes, dogs running onto the road etc), rider condition (state of sobriety, wakefullness, reflexes etc), bike condition (stopping power, condition of tyres etc).

[mikebike]

Sorry G. I wasn't being serious I was snidely referring to the 'what is a safe speed' thread where this was more-than-thoroughly uhmmmm, discussed!!!

[Gweiloman]

Sorry G. I wasn't being serious I was snidely referring to the 'what is a safe speed' thread where this was more-than-thoroughly uhmmmm, discussed!!!

I know, lol.

My point (even when starting that other thread) was never about what was the "absolute" safe speed because there's no such thing. It was intended to generate a discussion about what is going on in a rider's mind, what sort of hazards they are looking out for, etc etc.

Shame that it degenerated (as per usual).

[mikebike]

Sorry G. I wasn't being serious I was snidely referring to the 'what is a safe speed' thread where this was more-than-thoroughly uhmmmm, discussed!!!

I know, lol.

My point (even when starting that other thread) was... ...intended to generate a discussion about what is going on in a rider's mind, what sort of hazards they are looking out for, etc etc.

Shame that it degenerated (as per usual).

Yes, discussing point-fixation, field-of-vision scanning, attention vs concentration, and, for me, one of the most important 'safety' issues - riding at a pace where I feel fully engaged in the act of riding vs when I'm 'sight-seeing', just cruisin' along, and can easily miss potentially dangerous events/actions happening around me. Would have been an interesting thread!!

[Phra Ek]

Very sad to have loss of life in the accident. But to the question by the OP - I think the inertia of a stationary scooter plus rider when hit by a fast moving bike would put a huge amount of stress on the forks. The scooter will not accelerate much on impact - even a small bike has some mass - so it's like hitting a solid barrier and losing all that momentum in a few inches.

The bike will then bounce around doing more damage to itself and possibly the two riders.

Cars have crumple zones and the damage is spread over a greater area so the end result is very different to solid steel frame versus a scooter motor and steel chassis.

In my younger days I hit a road sign at 50KPH and bent the forks right back to the frame and sheared off the front wheel. I travelled over the sign and rolled around on a grassy roundabout to lose my momentum! I was lucky - and the frame was, surprisingly, OK.

[mania]

The fork legs are designed to shear off in such a high speed accident , in order to save the main bike frame. Almost like a crumple zone. Good bit of design there , unlike some bikes , where the frame bends , and rights the complete bike off .

In 30 years riding ive seen quite a few severe crashes and only one where the forktubes snapped .

That bike hit an immoveable concrete road barrier at over 160kph head on.[Through a T intersection up country]

In all others crashes the fork tubes bend as you would expect.

"Designed to shear off?" you say Never heard of this, not saying its not so, but show me such info please.

Garry....I have been riding as long as you & agree you usually never see such things even on complete totals....

Yet I have to tell you since moving here a few years ago I have seen quite a few.

If you search in this forum I even posted a topic ...I think maybe a year ago....

Anyway........In that topic I was asking of the Ducati Monster built here had a flaw as I was seeing so

many with front ends completely snapped off on Thai Face Book Bike sites that I was a member of.

Later I started to notice more & not just Ducati's

Like you I initially thought something was wrong but having seen it on other models now I wonder....

Although I do think they were all built in Thailand models but still I cannot imagine bike parent companies

allowing say a softer steel head main bolt etc.

But again like you over the years never saw it & also consider over the years how much smaller forks were.

Beats me but if you subscribe to some Thai FaceBook clubs or move here I think you will see more.

Odd eh?

[Gweiloman]

The fork legs are designed to shear off in such a high speed accident , in order to save the main bike frame. Almost like a crumple zone. Good bit of design there , unlike some bikes , where the frame bends , and rights the complete bike off .

In 30 years riding ive seen quite a few severe crashes and only one where the forktubes snapped .

That bike hit an immoveable concrete road barrier at over 160kph head on.[Through a T intersection up country]

In all others crashes the fork tubes bend as you would expect.

"Designed to shear off?" you say Never heard of this, not saying its not so, but show me such info please.

Garry....I have been riding as long as you & agree you usually never see such things even on complete totals....

Yet I have to tell you since moving here a few years ago I have seen quite a few.

If you search in this forum I even posted a topic ...I think maybe a year ago....

Anyway........In that topic I was asking of the Ducati Monster built here had a flaw as I was seeing so

many with front ends completely snapped off on Thai Face Book Bike sites that I was a member of.

Later I started to notice more & not just Ducati's

Like you I initially thought something was wrong but having seen it on other models now I wonder....

Although I do think they were all built in Thailand models but still I cannot imagine bike parent companies

allowing say a softer steel head main bolt etc.

But again like you over the years never saw it & also consider over the years how much smaller forks were.

Beats me but if you subscribe to some Thai FaceBook clubs or move here I think you will see more.

Odd eh?

Thinking about it from a safety perspective, I would imagine that it would be safer if some sort of crumple zone factor is built into the front end.

Imagine running into a stationary object. If the front end remains rigid, all the force would be transmitted to the rider, throwing him forward. However, if the front end were to crumple, that would absorb a large amount of the original force.

I'm no engineer, have no idea if this thinking is correct or not.

[Nickymaster]

Strange topic. We only know that sadly someone was killed while being hit by another motorcycle and the question is how it is possible that the forks broke. Because forks normally never break regardless how heavy a crash is? Must be a design flaw from those amateurs at Kawasaki.

[papa al]

Strange topic. We only know that sadly someone was killed while being hit by another motorcycle and the question is how it is possible that the forks broke. Because forks normally never break regardless how heavy a crash is? Must be a design flaw from those amateurs at Kawasaki.

Post #29 seems to contradict that.

But bent or broken, matters little in a wreck like this.

Edited January 27, 2015 by papa al

[dave_boo]

Strange topic. We only know that sadly someone was killed while being hit by another motorcycle and the question is how it is possible that the forks broke. Because forks normally never break regardless how heavy a crash is? Must be a design flaw from those amateurs at Kawasaki.

I remember the Ducati fork breakage a while ago. Was amusing to me as those people had spent so much and got a bike that not only had the fuel system screwed up by ethanol, general malaise about Ducati bikes and service intervals...but they also couldn't keep up with the 'chopsticks' that other manufacturers put on bikes.

I was actually going to post something along the lines of "Well what do you expect when a mid-range Kawi collides with a budget Honda"....but people already think I'm a heartless basterd and it would probably have been too soon after that rider was negligently killed.

[papa al]

I think if a high-range Kawasaki collides with a mid-range Honda, devastation would still follow.

Survivability in high energy collisions on bikes ain't great, period.

Best keep the Karma in good order.

[garryjohns]

The fork legs are designed to shear off in such a high speed accident , in order to save the main bike frame. Almost like a crumple zone. Good bit of design there , unlike some bikes , where the frame bends , and rights the complete bike off .

In 30 years riding ive seen quite a few severe crashes and only one where the forktubes snapped .

That bike hit an immoveable concrete road barrier at over 160kph head on.[Through a T intersection up country]

In all others crashes the fork tubes bend as you would expect.

"Designed to shear off?" you say Never heard of this, not saying its not so, but show me such info please.

Garry....I have been riding as long as you & agree you usually never see such things even on complete totals....

Yet I have to tell you since moving here a few years ago I have seen quite a few.

If you search in this forum I even posted a topic ...I think maybe a year ago....

Anyway........In that topic I was asking of the Ducati Monster built here had a flaw as I was seeing so

many with front ends completely snapped off on Thai Face Book Bike sites that I was a member of.

Later I started to notice more & not just Ducati's

Like you I initially thought something was wrong but having seen it on other models now I wonder....

Although I do think they were all built in Thailand models but still I cannot imagine bike parent companies

allowing say a softer steel head main bolt etc.

But again like you over the years never saw it & also consider over the years how much smaller forks were.

Beats me but if you subscribe to some Thai FaceBook clubs or move here I think you will see more.

Odd eh?

Thanks very much mania .

Your reply in 30+ others is the only one to relate to my interest/query.

Yes i was thinking as you did, of maybe a major flaw in the making of these forktubes.

Possibly , these days, in the chase for better power to weight ratio figures/fuel economy and cost cutting of course etc they are using lighter,possibly weaker materials?

I will look for your earlier topic.

Do you perchance have a link to it or what it was headlined?

Odd as you say.

Also, to me odd that so many others who are interested in safety gear and safety riding have no interest in what could possibly be a bike safety issue.

I'm sure that if i owned a bike model that i saw in such condition i would be taking a bit more interest.

Broken forktubes are definitely not a common sight.

Thanks again.

Edited January 27, 2015 by garryjohns