Palestinian girl, 14, in Israel prison for throwing rocks

[Morch]

Yes, it is very common to hide hatred against Jews and irrational opposition to the very existence of Israel behind the safer term anti-Zionist. It's curious how many "anti-Zionists" are against all peoples having the right to self determination in a nation state, such as Thais. Almost none. But the focus is only on JEWS not being worthy of the privilege of identification with a nation state.

There are a few problems with your victim mentality in this issue.

The anti-Zionists do not hide behind the term at all, and their focus is on Zionists (who happen to be Jews), not Jews per se. If their criticism of Zionists overflows, it is upon Israelis, not Jews per se, as it is the Israeli electorate that keeps on voting in the governments whose Zionist policies pervade.

And that should be fair enough...after all, look at all the condemnation of all Muslims because they don't speak out about Islamic extremism. Hmmm?

I do wish to specifically address one part above: "the condemnation of muslims because they dont speak out about islamic extremism." I will not even offer that your analogy fails; that's not my point.

I wish to state, though, that the reason muslims are "condemned" for not speaking out is because increasingly it is broadly realized they are the only ones who can bring sanity to the situation. It is they, this silent "moderate" majority that the world looks to. Indeed, even amongst themselves muslims concede this is an intrafaith issue, of sorts, and so on. So, the accusation that we need more of them to protest they slide to the right of their faith is a valid need. Admonishing them for not doing so seems like a fair consequence of silence. This does not broadly impugn or injure them. The reprimand to moderate muslims is basically to join the world of conscience and draw a line in the sand stating opposition. It is not enough that few here and there do so. In a world body of 1.7 billion muslims, much more should be done. Therefore, equating the condemnation of muslims for not speaking out about extremism seems a bit of a reach. Perhaps not the best example of your point. Perhaps.

Seastallion, I believe their are many good men and women out there with the intellectual penetration to note the difference between jews and nationalist Zionists, and oppose Zionism only. Jeez, with such precision intellect and grasping the issue that makes them sick, why on earth would they pollute their observation with base disdain for jews generally? No, there are many people who just dont like the concept of Zionism; I buy it. But UG and Jingthing are correct. I have noted with gut intuition many who actually appear to hide behind the condemnation of Zionism and in varying ways reveal that they just dont like jews. I see a lot of this on TV, and elsewhere. So, it is not a monolithic opposition to jews and/or Zionism- it is validly a mix. The problem is, antisemitism is consistently rising and so where it rears its head it should be called. I dont think this is henny penny as much as it is ringing alarms.

If we are talking in the context of this forum, and I believe UG and JT's comments are directed at members here (which is not to restrict the conversation...I think it can apply anywhere, but we have all the comments and attitudes on display right here), and in particular from my own POV, I will not be called an anti-semite because I know that I am not. I also do not accept that any of the major contributors here with whom the likes of UG et al are always at odds are anti-semites, either.

The word "anti-semite" holds (or held) an almost magical power, a power much stronger than "racist" or "bigot", so that the label, once applied, makes the recipient unacceptable in decent society, an outcast. That power is diminishing as it becomes more and more apparent that the label has been abused, and continues to be abused, for political point-scoring or mudslinging. I detect a frantic resurgence of the use (and abuse) of the word. It does, after all, attempt to divert from valid criticism of Israel and Zionism.

(A recent video posted by JT which he tried to show how anti-semitism is real, in fact clearly showed how the anti-semite label is abused....the Jewish councilman making an overly emotional tirade against the unfurling of the Palestinian flag was calling it anti-semitism, when in fact it was a political comment against Israel' and had nothing whatsoever to do with a display of anti-semitism.......he was in fact doing what UG and JT do here; trying to make out that political condemnation of Israel is an expression of the nasty anti-semite. A fallacy.)

The oddly funny thing is, even if the anti-semite label was applied accurately upon someone who is condemning Zionist expansion policies, the policies remain condemned and criticised....it should not matter what the prejudices of the critic are if he is making a valid point, and yet, somehow, those that apply the label seem to hope that that is enough to refute the condemnation. It is not.

Also in the context of discussions on this forum...my anti-Muslim analogy does indeed hold well. I made the comment in conjunction with the idea that anti-Zion may overflow into anti_Israeli sentiments, but not anti-Jew sentiments, anticipating the cries of "But not all Israelis support the Zionists, so don't blame them"

*posts removed to allow reply*

The councilman making that "overly emotional tirade" (which, as a side-note, is a rather odd choice of words considering some posters' style) against the unfurling of the Palestinian flag was calling it antisemitism might have had something to do with the action being part of their protest related to commemorating those who died in Auschwitz. But you were saying something about how it was directed just at Israel, and nothing to do with antisemitism...? .

Automatically tagging posters as being one thing or the other contributes very little to discussion. Fair enough. That such tagging is sometimes used to discredit and silence opposing opinions - true. To deduce from this that each instance in which someone is called one thing or another is ultimately disingenuous or baseless is incorrect. And yes, of course, a two way street.

[Morch]

A little shock therapy might be just what the doctor ordered!

Hmm...now just need to figure whom to apply this to....

[Morch]

French Police Question 8-Year-Old Boy For Allegedly Praising Charlie Hebdo Attackers

An eight-year-old boy from the southern French city of Nice was questioned by police on Wednesday after he allegedly made comments expressing “solidarity” with the gunmen who had attacked the offices of Charlie Hebdo magazine, according to media reports. The attack on the French satirical publication by militants, allegedly affiliated to al Qaeda, on Jan. 7, had led to the deaths of 12 people and triggered a state of high alert in countries across Europe.

Authorities at the boy’s school notified the police on Jan. 8 after he refused to participate in a minute’s silence to honor those killed in the attack. The boy, whose name has not been disclosed, also reportedly said he supported the terrorists who attacked Charlie Hebdo as he opposed the caricatures of Prophet Muhammad that were printed by the magazine. "I am on the side of the terrorists, because I am against the caricatures of the prophet," he said, according to media reports.

“In the current context, the principal of the school decided to report to police what had happened,” Marcel Authier, head of the region’s public security, said, according to a report by Agence France-Presse (AFP). “We summoned the child and his father to try and comprehend how an eight-year-old boy could hold such radical ideas.”

http://www.ibtimes.com/french-police-question-8-year-old-boy-allegedly-praising-charlie-hebdo-attackers-1798770

[Steely Dan]

Most 14 year old girls are usually thinking about whoever they happen to have a crush on at that time, not throwing rocks at a perceived enemy.

My question is........What drives such perception?

Cultural narrative of local parents who wish to keep the wound open, and their active encouragment or passive acceptance of rock lobbing.

I beg to differ.

Palestinian children cannot be shielded from witnessing everyday realities, and as with many minority or oppressed groups, tend to form political identity earlier on compared with "normal" societies. The constant politicization of everyday life, media and social interaction plays a huge part. Parental ability to stem the tide is limited (and, indeed, parents are most time products of the same conditions) even if the motivation and will to do so were otherwise. One effect of the ongoing Israeli occupation is a slow eroding process of parental authority. When parents repeatedly seem helpless against the powers that be, their influence as authority figures declines. Given the sorry state of facilities, educational awareness and limits on transportation - there just aren't enough beneficial/productive alternatives on offer as far as Palestinian kids go. This state of things could be attributed to to both Israeli and Palestinian authorities.

Whatever they witness in their everyday lives and what their parents tell them is only part of the story, check out Palestinian media watch to see the incitement to violence, racial hatred and hyperbolic grievance they are spoon fed from childhood.

Edit: Coming to think of it I wonder whether some of our esteemed members have Palestinian TV channels on their cable package.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Steely Dan

[Morch]

Most 14 year old girls are usually thinking about whoever they happen to have a crush on at that time, not throwing rocks at a perceived enemy.

My question is........What drives such perception?

Cultural narrative of local parents who wish to keep the wound open, and their active encouragment or passive acceptance of rock lobbing.

I beg to differ.

Palestinian children cannot be shielded from witnessing everyday realities, and as with many minority or oppressed groups, tend to form political identity earlier on compared with "normal" societies. The constant politicization of everyday life, media and social interaction plays a huge part. Parental ability to stem the tide is limited (and, indeed, parents are most time products of the same conditions) even if the motivation and will to do so were otherwise. One effect of the ongoing Israeli occupation is a slow eroding process of parental authority. When parents repeatedly seem helpless against the powers that be, their influence as authority figures declines. Given the sorry state of facilities, educational awareness and limits on transportation - there just aren't enough beneficial/productive alternatives on offer as far as Palestinian kids go. This state of things could be attributed to to both Israeli and Palestinian authorities.

Whatever they witness in their everyday lives and what their parents tell them is only part of the story, check out Palestinian media watch to see the incitement to violence, racial hatred and hyperbolic grievance they are spoon fed from childhood.

Edit: Coming to think of it I wonder whether some of our esteemed members have Palestinian TV channels on their cable package.

I think you make light of some of the realities of living as a Palestinian under Israeli occupation. That there are incitements, racial and religious hatreds involved - fair enough. Israel's general conduct and treatment of the Palestinian does little to change these perceptions and attitudes. Not sure if I am an esteemed member, but I do follow Palestinian media channels (mostly online).

[Steely Dan]

Most 14 year old girls are usually thinking about whoever they happen to have a crush on at that time, not throwing rocks at a perceived enemy.

My question is........What drives such perception?

Cultural narrative of local parents who wish to keep the wound open, and their active encouragment or passive acceptance of rock lobbing.

I beg to differ.
Palestinian children cannot be shielded from witnessing everyday realities, and as with many minority or oppressed groups, tend to form political identity earlier on compared with "normal" societies. The constant politicization of everyday life, media and social interaction plays a huge part. Parental ability to stem the tide is limited (and, indeed, parents are most time products of the same conditions) even if the motivation and will to do so were otherwise. One effect of the ongoing Israeli occupation is a slow eroding process of parental authority. When parents repeatedly seem helpless against the powers that be, their influence as authority figures declines. Given the sorry state of facilities, educational awareness and limits on transportation - there just aren't enough beneficial/productive alternatives on offer as far as Palestinian kids go. This state of things could be attributed to to both Israeli and Palestinian authorities.

Whatever they witness in their everyday lives and what their parents tell them is only part of the story, check out Palestinian media watch to see the incitement to violence, racial hatred and hyperbolic grievance they are spoon fed from childhood.

Edit: Coming to think of it I wonder whether some of our esteemed members have Palestinian TV channels on their cable package.

I think you make light of some of the realities of living as a Palestinian under Israeli occupation. That there are incitements, racial and religious hatreds involved - fair enough. Israel's general conduct and treatment of the Palestinian does little to change these perceptions and attitudes. Not sure if I am an esteemed member, but I do follow Palestinian media channels (mostly online).

Sorry to disappoint Morch, but to reach the standard required for 'esteemed' status you need to not only watch Palestinian media channels, but also suck up all the bile and incitements to genocide uncritically, which then need regurgitating wrapped in a veneer of faux humanitarianism. Using the word Zionist in every other sentence also helps.

Whilst I accept it may be no picnic to be a Palestinian living under Israeli rule I would point out it is probably no picnic being brought up a Gypsy in various European Countries, even though their behavior is exemplary compared to Palestinians. I would also point out that 77% of Israeli Arabs polled would rather live under Israeli rule than Palestinian, which shows they are on the whole less stupid than their neighbors on the other side of the security fence.

[Morch]

Most 14 year old girls are usually thinking about whoever they happen to have a crush on at that time, not throwing rocks at a perceived enemy.

My question is........What drives such perception?

Cultural narrative of local parents who wish to keep the wound open, and their active encouragment or passive acceptance of rock lobbing.

I beg to differ.

Palestinian children cannot be shielded from witnessing everyday realities, and as with many minority or oppressed groups, tend to form political identity earlier on compared with "normal" societies. The constant politicization of everyday life, media and social interaction plays a huge part. Parental ability to stem the tide is limited (and, indeed, parents are most time products of the same conditions) even if the motivation and will to do so were otherwise. One effect of the ongoing Israeli occupation is a slow eroding process of parental authority. When parents repeatedly seem helpless against the powers that be, their influence as authority figures declines. Given the sorry state of facilities, educational awareness and limits on transportation - there just aren't enough beneficial/productive alternatives on offer as far as Palestinian kids go. This state of things could be attributed to to both Israeli and Palestinian authorities.

Whatever they witness in their everyday lives and what their parents tell them is only part of the story, check out Palestinian media watch to see the incitement to violence, racial hatred and hyperbolic grievance they are spoon fed from childhood.

Edit: Coming to think of it I wonder whether some of our esteemed members have Palestinian TV channels on their cable package.

I think you make light of some of the realities of living as a Palestinian under Israeli occupation. That there are incitements, racial and religious hatreds involved - fair enough. Israel's general conduct and treatment of the Palestinian does little to change these perceptions and attitudes. Not sure if I am an esteemed member, but I do follow Palestinian media channels (mostly online).

Sorry to disappoint Morch, but to reach the standard required for 'esteemed' status you need to not only watch Palestinian media channels, but also suck up all the bile and incitements to genocide uncritically, which then need regurgitating wrapped in a veneer of faux humanitarianism. Using the word Zionist in every other sentence also helps.

Whilst I accept it may be no picnic to be a Palestinian living under Israeli rule I would point out it is probably no picnic being brought up a Gypsy in various European Countries, even though their behavior is exemplary compared to Palestinians. I would also point out that 77% of Israeli Arabs polled would rather live under Israeli rule than Palestinian, which shows they are on the whole less stupid than their neighbors on the other side of the security fence.

Gypsies in Europe do not live under martial law. The comparison is disingenuous.

Israeli Arabs do not live under martial law. The comparison is disingenuous.

[Steely Dan]

@Morch,

Regarding the Roma, of whom the French have deported over 10,000;-

Were Israel to take similar action with the Palestinians you can imagine the outcry. Yet European governments and NGOs apply a standard to Israel that I doubt it's members would adhere to, given the same cause. As for Israeli Arabs, they don't live under martial law and their behavior for the most part doesn't warrant it. Before the intifadas thousands of Palestinians crossed over into Israel to work each day, that was before the incitement of Palestinian media and politicians made this impossible. To rule out comparisons due to martial law is to view things in a vacuum, the Israelis are no saints, yet how many Western governments would tolerate stones being thrown at cars on major highways? A child was seriously injured recently, if it happened to someone you knew you might think differently.

http://unitedwithisrael.org/palestinian-rock-throwing-attacks-on-rise-children-fighting-for-lives/

Edited January 30, 2015 by Steely Dan

[Morch]

@Morch,

Regarding the Roma, of whom the French have deported over 10,000;-

Were Israel to take similar action with the Palestinians you can imagine the outcry. Yet European governments and NGOs apply a standard to Israel that I doubt it's members would adhere to, given the same cause. As for Israeli Arabs, they don't live under martial law and their behavior for the most part doesn't warrant it. Before the intifadas thousands of Palestinians crossed over into Israel to work each day, that was before the incitement of Palestinian media and politicians made this impossible. To rule out comparisons due to martial law is to view things in a vacuum, the Israelis are no saints, yet how many Western governments would tolerate stones being thrown at cars on major highways? A child was seriously injured recently, if it happened to someone you knew you might think differently.

http://unitedwithisrael.org/palestinian-rock-throwing-attacks-on-rise-children-fighting-for-lives/

I believe that there are more than 10,000 Palestinian refugees, it can be argued whether they were deported or not - the end result it the same. So basically, Israel did that and continues to get criticized for it.

The Intifadas did not happen in a vacuum, as well. Obviously, there was enough resentment and bad blood for them to catch on as they did. The main difference between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians is exactly this - the level of rights available. Living under martial law allow for less freedom. It is not the case that had there been no Intifada, Palestinian rights were on par with those afforded to Israeli Arabs.

Not claiming that applying Western standards to the situation is always a helpful approach. Things are rather more complicated than they are at most Western countries. That said public perceptions among the Palestinians are not without hold in reality, and trying to lay all the blame (or most of it) on their leadership and media is a very biased take on what things are really like.

[RuamRudy]

Palestinian "leaders" are encouraging this kind of thing. It makes good press in their successful PR efforts to demonize Israel.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

The actions of Netanyahu and the IDF are more than sufficient to demonize Israel.

[dexterm]

@Morch,

Regarding the Roma, of whom the French have deported over 10,000;-

Were Israel to take similar action with the Palestinians you can imagine the outcry. Yet European governments and NGOs apply a standard to Israel that I doubt it's members would adhere to, given the same cause. As for Israeli Arabs, they don't live under martial law and their behavior for the most part doesn't warrant it. Before the intifadas thousands of Palestinians crossed over into Israel to work each day, that was before the incitement of Palestinian media and politicians made this impossible. To rule out comparisons due to martial law is to view things in a vacuum, the Israelis are no saints, yet how many Western governments would tolerate stones being thrown at cars on major highways? A child was seriously injured recently, if it happened to someone you knew you might think differently.

http://unitedwithisrael.org/palestinian-rock-throwing-attacks-on-rise-children-fighting-for-lives/

Yes children do get seriously injured...this time with live bullets fired by the IDF "the most moral army in the world." at children ironically protesting IDF treatment of minors.

Happens all the time in the West Bank and hoes mainly unreported in Western media.

Teen hurt as Israeli forces suppress West Bank demos

Published yesterday (updated) 30/01/2015

RAMALLAH (Ma'an) -- Israeli forces suppressed weekly protests near Ramallah in the occupied West Bank on Friday, injuring a child, a Ma'an reporter said.

In Nabi Saleh, a 15-year-old Palestinian boy was injured in the thigh with a live bullet fired by Israeli soldiers.

The boy, Muhammad Bilal al-Tamimi, was taken to the Palestine Medical Center in Ramallah.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=757721

Western countries do not occupy another people for 67 years. If they did they should expect at least stones to be thrown at them in protest.

Edited January 31, 2015 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

What is a "child" doing at a protest? Was he pelting the army with rocks? Why are parents allowing their child to become a pawn in this mess in the first place?

[dexterm]

What is a "child" doing at a protest? Was he pelting the army with rocks? Why are parents allowing their child to become a pawn in this mess in the first place?

Why do Zionist families colonize the West Bank, daily humiliate and attack Palestinians whose families have lived there for centuries, and need the protection of the IDF because of their illegal occupation.

View a video in Hebron of Israeli settlers pelting Palestinian children (aged 4 to 8 years) and two international activists

with stones.The settlers became aware of the Palestinian children and internationals, who were watching from a near-by roof, and proceeded to hurl stones from the car-parking lot below, despite calls of "Stop". The Israeli soldiers on guard at a military post within 30 meters surveyed the disturbance but provided no assistance.

[Jingthing]

The jailed girl has been released.

Red Cross representatives informed the family of al-Khatib, who was sentenced to two months in prison for stone-throwing and possession of a knife, on Thursday that she would be released at the Jubara checkpoint near the West Bank city of Tulkarem, the Palestinian Ma’an news agency reported.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-teen-girl-jailed-for-stone-throwing-to-be-released/

Next ...!

Edited February 14, 2015 by Jingthing

[Lissos]

View a video in Hebron of Israeli settlers pelting Palestinian children (aged 4 to 8 years) and two international activists with stones.

Only harmless "pebbles" right? (such is the narrative when the shoe is on the other foot)

[Jay Sata]

Anyone posting with several thousand rants on the same subject should get out and enjoy some Thai sunshine or maybe just go live in the promised land.

I'll bet there would some serious issues if a settler Israeli child of 14 was locked up by Hamas for throwing stones.

[Basil B]

Anyone posting with several thousand rants on the same subject should get out and enjoy some Thai sunshine or maybe just go live in the promised land.

I'll bet there would some serious issues if a settler Israeli child of 14 was locked up by Hamas for throwing stones.

Contradiction and double standards...

[Morch]

Anyone posting with several thousand rants on the same subject should get out and enjoy some Thai sunshine or maybe just go live in the promised land.

I'll bet there would some serious issues if a settler Israeli child of 14 was locked up by Hamas for throwing stones.

That would probably be considered kidnapping even by Palestinian authorities. No settlers in the Gaza strip, and the Hamas got no authority to arrest anyone in the West Bank - that would be the PA. Said authority would apply in specific areas(A areas), the most relevant being al Khalil (aka Hebron), and then again - depending on specific locations within.

Don't let them pesky details interfere with making obscure points, though.

[BKKBobby]

Is a 14 year old eligable for prison? Isnt she a child. Throwing rocks or not.

[Jingthing]

Is a 14 year old eligable for prison? Isnt she a child. Throwing rocks or not.

Most societies have incarceration options for juvenile offenders.

[Ulysses G.]

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. People have been killed by being hit with thrown stones.

[Jingthing]

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. People have been killed by being hit with thrown stones.

Well she's out for now and hopefully she won't be back!

[DeaconJohn]

Anyone posting with several thousand rants on the same subject should get out and enjoy some Thai sunshine or maybe just go live in the promised land.

I'll bet there would some serious issues if a settler Israeli child of 14 was locked up by Hamas for throwing stones.

That would probably be considered kidnapping even by Palestinian authorities. No settlers in the Gaza strip, and the Hamas got no authority to arrest anyone in the West Bank - that would be the PA. Said authority would apply in specific areas(A areas), the most relevant being al Khalil (aka Hebron), and then again - depending on specific locations within.

Don't let them pesky details interfere with making obscure points, though.

His post was cogent and to the point.

Your pesky details obscure it.

You sound like a lawyer that anyone would want on their defense team.

Edited February 15, 2015 by DeaconJohn

[BKKBobby]

Is a 14 year old eligable for prison? Isnt she a child. Throwing rocks or not.

Most societies have incarceration options for juvenile offenders.

You can get a life sentence in USA if you are 12 years old or was it 13 or 14? Dont remember. But you cant drive a car until when you are 16.

But you cant go to a bar until you are 21. Logic?

Incarceration and prison isnt the same.

Edited February 15, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Ulysses G.]

Anyone posting with several thousand rants on the same subject should get out and enjoy some Thai sunshine or maybe just go live in the promised land.

I'll bet there would some serious issues if a settler Israeli child of 14 was locked up by Hamas for throwing stones.

That would probably be considered kidnapping even by Palestinian authorities. No settlers in the Gaza strip, and the Hamas got no authority to arrest anyone in the West Bank - that would be the PA. Said authority would apply in specific areas(A areas), the most relevant being al Khalil (aka Hebron), and then again - depending on specific locations within.

Don't let them pesky details interfere with making obscure points, though.

His post was cogent and to the point.

Most people know what happened to the last Israeli children that Hamas kidnapped. His point ignores reality.

[DeaconJohn]

Most people know what happened to the last Israeli children that Hamas kidnapped. His point ignores reality.

Children have been killed by both sides in this hideous conflict.

Neither side is innocent... that's the reality.

[Jay Sata]

I have never read of a settler child or indeed a settler being locked up for stone throwing.

But I guess double standards are the norm for the IDF.

[Ulysses G.]

Between 2008 and 2013, 53 young Israeli settlers were arrested for throwing stones. Your so-called "double standards" are imaginary.

[Jingthing]

Between 2008 and 2013, 53 young Israeli settlers were arrested for throwing stones. Your so-called "double standards" are imaginary.

Whatever the statistics, there is no doubt that the Palestinian Arabs have legit gripes. The trouble is their leadership and tactics for trying to resolve them.

[BKKBobby]

Between 2008 and 2013, 53 young Israeli settlers were arrested for throwing stones. Your so-called "double standards" are imaginary.

They should be arrested for being settlers. Not for throwing the rocks. But oh, I just remembered... the government gives Israelis economic incentives for stealing land. They steal land, right? Or has the UN lost its purpose as the official opinion of the world.