Inquest: Sydney café hostage killed by police bullet

[webfact]

Inquest: Sydney café hostage killed by police bullet
KRISTEN GELINEAU, Associated Press

SYDNEY (AP) — A lawyer assisting a coroner says a hostage who died during a siege in a downtown Sydney café was killed when she was struck by fragments of a police bullet.

Lawyer Jeremy Gormly told the Glebe Coroner's Court on Thursday that Katrina Dawson was killed as police stormed into the café to end the 16-hour siege last month. Gormly says Dawson was struck by six fragments of a police bullet that had ricocheted off a hard surface.

An inquest into the deadly siege began on Thursday to determine exactly how gunman Man Horan Monis and two hostages died.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-01-29

[NeverSure]

Tragic. RIP.

[Kooweerup]

watching some do-gooder on the news who said that the police should be sued for excessive force and reckless conduct.

[HeijoshinCool]

Sounds like they were using the wrong ammo.

[casualbiker]

Sounds like they were using the wrong ammo.

What ammo should they have been using?

[Ulysses G.]

It is sad that the hostage was killed at all, but this is all the responsibility of the Muslim terrorist that kidnapped her and caused the violence.

[rasmus5150]

A horrible tragedy.

[drand11]

Kudos to the police. This stuff can happen. The glass is half full..they saved many lives!

[rabid old goat]

Sydney café hostage killed by police bullet

yeah well most of us with at least half a brain didnt need an inquest to tell us that.

[rabid old goat]

Why couldn't someone on the roof next door take him out?

Why does a team need to go in?

Not enough info to make an informed comment.

that had too shoot him before he fell asleep.

[HeijoshinCool]

Sounds like they were using the wrong ammo.

What ammo should they have been using?

.

Arguable. Talking about this is like discussing religion: everyone has an opinion, and when selecting your ammo, like your savior, you will not find a consensus even within a single department, anymore than you will within a single denomination. So call me an armchair quarterback, and I won't argue, but I do know what most SWAT-type agencies use. Though I don't pretend to know what they use in Sydney, it's likely the .223. Somebody who truly knows, correct me if I'm wrong.

The .223 is the load of choice for many urban departments because of its low penetration; i.e., it will stop the bad guy, but not the innocent behind him. (For years, otherwise was thought, but recent tests show this to be true.)

Problem is, the .223 has a high propensity to fragment on impact. But cop shops like this, because if the target is hit, the fragments stay inside and do significant damage.

In the States, we call these "varmint" bullets, and use them for hunting. These are great for a group of bad guys holding up in a residential area. Not so good for hostage situations.

Because in the melee, the target is not always hit. In hostage a situation where numerous bodies are packed tightly and close to the target, a single round that misses and fragments off a wall, can kill more than one hostage. Most ricochets continue their travel within 16" of the surface they ricocheted off, which is where most hostages are.

The entry I saw on video, looked totally out of control. I've never seen so many rounds fired so fast.

(Now I'll be attacked by the guys from down under.)

Me, I would load the Nosler Partition bullet.

[RigPig]

Sounds like they were using the wrong ammo.

What ammo should they have been using?

.

Arguable. Talking about this is like discussing religion: everyone has an opinion, and when selecting your ammo, like your savior, you will not find a consensus even within a single department, anymore than you will within a single denomination. So call me an armchair quarterback, and I won't argue, but I do know what most SWAT-type agencies use. Though I don't pretend to know what they use in Sydney, it's likely the .223. Somebody who truly knows, correct me if I'm wrong.

The .223 is the load of choice for many urban departments because of its low penetration; i.e., it will stop the bad guy, but not the innocent behind him. (For years, otherwise was thought, but recent tests show this to be true.)

Problem is, the .223 has a high propensity to fragment on impact. But cop shops like this, because if the target is hit, the fragments stay inside and do significant damage.

In the States, we call these "varmint" bullets, and use them for hunting. These are great for a group of bad guys holding up in a residential area. Not so good for hostage situations.

Because in the melee, the target is not always hit. In hostage a situation where numerous bodies are packed tightly and close to the target, a single round that misses and fragments off a wall, can kill more than one hostage. Most ricochets continue their travel within 16" of the surface they ricocheted off, which is where most hostages are.

The entry I saw on video, looked totally out of control. I've never seen so many rounds fired so fast.

(Now I'll be attacked by the guys from down under.)

Me, I would load the Nosler Partition bullet.

Gaser safety slugs, they are a mix of Teflon designed not to ricochet, specifically for hostage situations in enclosed environments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug

[MrY]

Sounds like they were using the wrong ammo.

What ammo should they have been using?

.

Arguable. Talking about this is like discussing religion: everyone has an opinion, and when selecting your ammo, like your savior, you will not find a consensus even within a single department, anymore than you will within a single denomination. So call me an armchair quarterback, and I won't argue, but I do know what most SWAT-type agencies use. Though I don't pretend to know what they use in Sydney, it's likely the .223. Somebody who truly knows, correct me if I'm wrong.

The .223 is the load of choice for many urban departments because of its low penetration; i.e., it will stop the bad guy, but not the innocent behind him. (For years, otherwise was thought, but recent tests show this to be true.)

Problem is, the .223 has a high propensity to fragment on impact. But cop shops like this, because if the target is hit, the fragments stay inside and do significant damage.

In the States, we call these "varmint" bullets, and use them for hunting. These are great for a group of bad guys holding up in a residential area. Not so good for hostage situations.

Because in the melee, the target is not always hit. In hostage a situation where numerous bodies are packed tightly and close to the target, a single round that misses and fragments off a wall, can kill more than one hostage. Most ricochets continue their travel within 16" of the surface they ricocheted off, which is where most hostages are.

The entry I saw on video, looked totally out of control. I've never seen so many rounds fired so fast.

(Now I'll be attacked by the guys from down under.)

Me, I would load the Nosler Partition bullet.

Gaser safety slugs, they are a mix of Teflon designed not to ricochet, specifically for hostage situations in enclosed environments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug

Amen.

[freebyrd]

watching some do-gooder on the news who said that the police should be sued for excessive force and reckless conduct.

Do-gooders make me puke. Until you've been in the line of fire you have no idea what it's like. 20 years in the army, I watched in admiration as the police did their utmost against another loony with a 'cause'. Rather them than me. The fact that one of the hostages was killed by a ricochet is tragic but a pure accident.

Well done to the Aussie police for the lives they saved.

[cookee68]

It is sad that the hostage was killed at all, but this is all the responsibility of the Muslim terrorist that kidnapped her and caused the violence. Very true

Very very true, lets hope that all the do gooders are not trying to shift the blame to the police, No Muslim, No terrorist, No problem

[cookee68]

watching some do-gooder on the news who said that the police should be sued for excessive force and reckless conduct.

Those are the people I would like to see get into that situation, they make me sick, maybe the police should have waited until the TERROIST killed all the hostages first, then gone in, who would give a shit about what ammo they used then, you Do- Gooders are the reason people get away with too much, you make me PUKE, don't bother replying to me, because I got no time for you.

[Bwanatickey]

The Hostage was eventually going to die, at least they saw a rescue happen, something they must have been praying for, what happens when a hostage and terrorist die at the same time and arrive at the pearly gates together.

[Kooweerup]

watching some do-gooder on the news who said that the police should be sued for excessive force and reckless conduct.

Those are the people I would like to see get into that situation, they make me sick, maybe the police should have waited until the TERROIST killed all the hostages first, then gone in, who would give a shit about what ammo they used then, you Do- Gooders are the reason people get away with too much, you make me PUKE, don't bother replying to me, because I got no time for you.

Agree 100%

[BAKABAS]

It is sad that the hostage was killed at all, but this is all the responsibility of the Muslim terrorist that kidnapped her and caused the violence.

He was not a terrorist, he was a madman that sexually abused scores of women and was due to face court 3 weeks after this incident. He knew he was going to jail for that, he decided to put on the " Terrorist mask " and commit this criminal act, because he merely wanted to pretend he was a special martyr for the Islamic cause. He is no terrorist, he should never be remembered as a terrorist, only a sick dog that needed to be put down.

I cried hard for days over the victims. You will never be forgotten.

[Chris Lawrence]

What is being reported on the morning news is that the mad gunman had the coffee shop manager kneel down then shot him in the back of the head. This is what caused the police to charge in.

Bakabas brief on Monis sounds on the mark. The guy was no terrorist; he was a sexual predator as per his pending court case. His new girlfriend was also up on murder charges for killing Monis ex-wife. This guy was a twisted individual.