Police beef up operations against prostitution in entertainment venues

[noitom]

This will amount to "selective" arrest by Thais. If the Thai pimps and Thai venues don't ante up, they will be busted for show until they pay up. Thailand is a nation of pimps panderers and prostitutes. How they ever expect to o something like this is mind boggling.

[ChiangraiTony]

I thought it was illegal to dance naked in Thailand. Does anyone know what the law is regarding top less and naked dancing?

And... What about the bar fine paid to the Mamasan. I can't ever remember them handing out receipts to a paying customer.

[RigPig]

I watched Prayuth speaking on this the other night and he was referring to the Laotian girls who were found in a prostitution den, locked up, in Udon Thani. This is about the third in the last few months so he is keen to want to be seen as doing something about it, particularly because many of the girls are underage, as someone already mentioned.

I can't see him clamping down on Nana, Pattaya etc. Unless he has a backup plan to provide alternative employment or state care, I can't see him wanting to his hands dirty. Although, he did say in the same speech that farmers who don't earn enough money should take one of the many new canal digging jobs being created to better water flow in dry regions. Can't see the Nana girls doing that though.

That makes sense, especially with HM´s water policy / scheme, and fair enough

[CapeThai]

Would this mean a license to arrasse even more Tourists ? Hopefully this is meant to act against the actual human traficers and child molesters which needs sorting out.

[Jim walker]

And no one has been talking with TAT to find out how much a drop on tourism this will cause all the usual annual 50million sexpats to head for Vietnam or Cambodia.

[RigPig]

Guess what ? I met my wife at a restaurant barely spoke a word of English. Won,t get near a bar.

It's all right for you Jungle Jim, they named a bar in Soi Cowboy after you, what about the rest of the guys?

JJ.jpg

Heheh his ex bar girl wife must run it.

The house next to the rice paddy is fine and all you perverts and alcoholics that don´t fit the jigsaw should go home, where ever that is, your not welcome here. How dare you e different and see life from another perspective, shame on you.....

Yeah I have to admit that i worked (and am still working) all my life so that I could meet and marry a 45 year old Thai woman with 4 kids to Thai boy friends that didn´t have the decency to support them (because that´s my job) build a house on her parents land next to the rice paddy and drink Archer beer while contemplating the local dogs, ducks and chickens. Listening to the neighbours cow with the cow bell moving around at night.

Oh well maybe in 2 more years I can get there, I hope.....

Ahh the envy I have, but the girls families and Thais I have employed made me feel welcome, even when there hands were in the till so I must disagree to some extent. Maybe I should report for ¨attitude re-adjustment¨

[jcisco]

Yah this thread is just a bore to read...... summary

* The bars operate an environment for the purpose of allowing women to take men from the club for their private business, usually prostitution.

* The bars ask the usually old farang male customer pay the bar fine, which really is the fee due to the bar by the girl. She is the one afterall using the place to source customers.

* If you think the bars are not some how involved in prostitution cause of the bar fine, whatever helps you sleep at night you self deluded sad sad people.

Actually screw it, this thread sucks, most farang here suck cause all they wanna do is go have a beer and that is code for, talk to me while i select a pussy to <deleted>. losers

[Friendly Stranger]

There goes the TAT's projected revenue and GDP down by about 60%!!!

It's a shame that - even in the boom years - tourism is less than 10% of GDP, even with the flow-on income from tourists finding its way into the pockets of Thais who have no direct involvement with the horde.

Obviously its exaggeration but don't underestimate the indirect impact going up and down the chain.

Not buying this to be here to stay as if this was to happen then next...

[Mosha]

and a million sexpats cried out in horror..

Not many sexpats outside of a few cities. Guess who the customer base is at most of the Karaoke bards?

[steveG]

I watched Prayuth speaking on this the other night and he was referring to the Laotian girls who were found in a prostitution den, locked up, in Udon Thani. This is about the third in the last few months so he is keen to want to be seen as doing something about it, particularly because many of the girls are underage, as someone already mentioned.

I can't see him clamping down on Nana, Pattaya etc. Unless he has a backup plan to provide alternative employment or state care, I can't see him wanting to his hands dirty. Although, he did say in the same speech that farmers who don't earn enough money should take one of the many new canal digging jobs being created to better water flow in dry regions. Can't see the Nana girls doing that though.

You havent seen how the Isarn women can work. The digging they do is amazing!!!

[enufsaid]

Thais don't look on prosititution as something "bad" as many do. It's a commodity, their bodies are for procreation & the same chemistry thing many others use to find a mate doesnt apply in the main populis . So tell me boys, where u going to find your girlfriends if they close these places down or is that up, lol

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

Thailand are desperate now to get out of the tier 3 human trafficking status they are placed in. This could be planned too make the country look like they are actually doing something, like many crackdowns before here I think its very selective and just smoke and mirrors.

[kannot]

That's why there is a "barfine".

Strictly speaking that's not the purpose of the barfine. The barfine or "off" fee is the amount paid by the customer to compensate the business owner for taking an employee "off" or away from the premises. Supposedly the business owner uses the barfine to employ a substitute

prostitute

[kannot]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Edit: As

Prostitution isn't an activity ? Really, so what do they do just stand there and do absolutely nothing?

only after youve married them!!!

[kevin2852]

The Barfine system was brought in so that an "employer" could be compensated for the loss of the valuable time of his treasured employee. Note the word employee.

This is the system which is used by so called legal venues. When the Barfine is applied and there is not an employee involved, it represents just a cut for the bar owner and as such, there are no records of it, no proof that it was ever paid and no cash can be found. This makes the difference between a casual bystander and a "Prostitute" hard to pin down and, they will never be able to tell the difference so will not try. The kink is that if the girl has a record, she is automatically guilty.

All this will achieve is a continual demand for new blood and recruiting drives through the country will start to work much harder, which will enrage the country. I think that this is all just Window-Dressing, the enforcement of it would upset the status quo and that of course would take money out of the pockets of the rich.

The effect for us will be that a large number of very small fish will be thrown in the garbage and then like so may other regulations, it will just suffocate because of inertia under it's own body mass. Just be sure that you are not one of the small sacrifices.

[jacko45k]

The ones I have been in lately looked pretty beefed up already!

[brewsterbudgen]

And not long after this announcement there's two pipe bombs in a major shopping area. Coincidence?

How would it possibly be connected?

[MrWorldwide]

I said earlier in this thread that it will be a token effort, particularly in Pattaya, and this 'raid' seems to confirm that:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/796881-human-trafficking-bar-raids-in-pattaya-and-banglamung/

Note that this is NOT Soi 8 off Second Road near Central Festival and there is no mention of any Thai customers being detained or even questioned. I realise this 'crackdown' has only just been announced, so I guess time will tell whether they're going to extend these little 'meet and greet' operations to the Farang strip.

Any suggestion that they will remove prostitution from Pattaya is laughable, but they might close a few venues for the sake of appearances - no biggie IMO. Nice little earner for their pension funds, though. One can only assume that the 14 women who were arrested here were simply waiting for a friend to finish work at the 7-11 before heading off to the temple.

Age & Nationality checks were made on staff members of the bars and licenses were checked in each of the venues. Banglamung Police did arrest 14 women who were found working in Karaoke Bars in the area but they were fined and later released.

[MrWorldwide]

How do you arrest a venue! Right then, come along with me you naughty Nana Plaza, you're nicked!!

There is most probably 50 working girls for each Police Officer ? Good Luck with that...

The Mayor of Surabaya didnt see it that way. Not sure how they managed it, but until prostitution was forced underground it was reportedly the largest red-light district in SEA - dont know where the media got that given the '1400 sex workers' claim. Empty the bars along Walking St and you'd have that number easily, and there's a lot more working girls (and guys) in Pattaya than the neon zoo at the end of Beach Road. In any case, if the Indonesians can do it, theoretically the Thais can too - I just question whether they're even remotely serious about killing such a massive cash cow (one estimate puts the sex industry at 6.8 billion USD - Thai and Farang - but your guess is as good as mine).

http://www.globalindonesianvoices.com/13773/surabaya-finally-closed-dolly-red-light-district/-

[Mot Dang]

People are jumping to conclusions here. This order does and will not include normal bars, whether go-go or not, as we known them in Pattaya and BKK etc. They are the illegal unlicensed entertainment venues, night clubs, karaoke bars and restaurants. If you read between the lines, these are the venues frequented primarily by Thais. The police are giving Thai lads a shake down.

This is a PR exercise only, Pattaya bars, Nana and Cowboy are safe, don"t worry, you'll see.

[MrWorldwide]

People are jumping to conclusions here. This order does and will not include normal bars, whether go-go or not, as we known them in Pattaya and BKK etc. They are the illegal unlicensed entertainment venues, night clubs, karaoke bars and restaurants. If you read between the lines, these are the venues frequented primarily by Thais. The police are giving Thai lads a shake down.

This is a PR exercise only, Pattaya bars, Nana and Cowboy are safe, don"t worry, you'll see.

The anti-nightlife zealots simply read what they wanted to read - I guess it passes the time while they wait for the Second Coming and the day when all sinners will be cast into the pit of eternal damnation. Let's just hope hypocrisy isnt one of the sins Yahweh is cracking down on this century, eh fellas ?

[kareona]

If it's implemented, this could really hurt. Wonder what sort of jobs the country could offer to these tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of workers.

Try 2-2.5 million sex workers - the NGO estimate - and the countless small businesses who rely on the much-maligned punter (Thai or Farang, they are still punters) and the flow-on income he generates when said sex workers go out and spend their money. Over 6 million people already trying to survive below the poverty line in Thailand - that's a lot of very unhappy campers : cant see the point in adding more people to PT's standing army of the disaffected.

2-2.5 million sexworkers, really? There are 35 million females in Thailand, about 20% of these between the age of 18 to 38, which comes to 6 million. Are you telling me that one third of this age bracket are sexworkers? 200-300 thousand sexworkers (one tenth of your estimate) is right.

[Cylon]

I thought it was Feb 1st, not April 1st

[CarnegieJoe]

I came to Thailand for the prostitutes and that was the only thing I heard of or knew about Thailand. I thought Thailand was world famous for her girls why do they want to kill this off.

[brewsterbudgen]

I said earlier in this thread that it will be a token effort, particularly in Pattaya, and this 'raid' seems to confirm that:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/796881-human-trafficking-bar-raids-in-pattaya-and-banglamung/

Note that this is NOT Soi 8 off Second Road near Central Festival and there is no mention of any Thai customers being detained or even questioned. I realise this 'crackdown' has only just been announced, so I guess time will tell whether they're going to extend these little 'meet and greet' operations to the Farang strip.

Any suggestion that they will remove prostitution from Pattaya is laughable, but they might close a few venues for the sake of appearances - no biggie IMO. Nice little earner for their pension funds, though. One can only assume that the 14 women who were arrested here were simply waiting for a friend to finish work at the 7-11 before heading off to the temple.

Age & Nationality checks were made on staff members of the bars and licenses were checked in each of the venues. Banglamung Police did arrest 14 women who were found working in Karaoke Bars in the area but they were fined and later released.

Pattaya's bars and gogos have been tightly regulated for years and bars that step out of line are regularly raided and sometimes shut down for a month or so. Absolutely nothing new and entirely unconnected to the subject of this thread.

[MrWorldwide]

If it's implemented, this could really hurt. Wonder what sort of jobs the country could offer to these tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of workers.

Try 2-2.5 million sex workers - the NGO estimate - and the countless small businesses who rely on the much-maligned punter (Thai or Farang, they are still punters) and the flow-on income he generates when said sex workers go out and spend their money. Over 6 million people already trying to survive below the poverty line in Thailand - that's a lot of very unhappy campers : cant see the point in adding more people to PT's standing army of the disaffected.

2-2.5 million sexworkers, really? There are 35 million females in Thailand, about 20% of these between the age of 18 to 38, which comes to 6 million. Are you telling me that one third of this age bracket are sexworkers? 200-300 thousand sexworkers (one tenth of your estimate) is right.

Right - given that the estimate in 1964 was 400,000, I suspect that we're both off by several hundred thousand in 2015.

http://www.links.net/vita/swat/course/prosthai.html

There were 20,000 prostitutes in Thailand in 1957; by 1964, after the United States established seven bases in the country, that number had skyrocketed to 400,000.

When was the last time you were in a bar anywhere in Thailand ? There are women well into their fifties still plying their trade. You've also conveniently left out ladyboys and male prostitutes - still a minority but ladyboys are a very visible minority in Pattaya bars and the last time I checked they were born male. Apparently you dont consider the imported workers from Laos, the PI, Eastern Europe and Africa as part of that estimate either, but lets concentrate on your figure of 6 million Thai women between 18 and 38, presumably the oldest women you can see anyone in their right mind hiring for sex.

There were >21 million females aged between 15 and 64 in the 2010 census:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Thailand#CIA_World_Factbook_demographic_statistics

and you're telling us that only 6 million of that number are between 18 and 38, which would put >15 million Thai females somewhere in your 'too young or too old' category. I would suggest that number is closer to 5 million, but lets push on.

These are the original figures from the CIA World Factbook online - they do differ from those cited in the Wikipedia article but we’re still talking over 21 million females between 15 and 54.

15-24 years: 15% (male 5,194,332/female 4,999,669)

25-54 years: 46.9% (male 15,685,882/female 16,097,245)

The CIA estimate the median age of women in 2014 at 37.2 years - draw your own conclusions from that. Given Thailand’s historically low birth rate, I believe the demographic we’re discussing is older than many would like to admit, particularly during a period of ‘full employment’.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/th.html

I know - lies, damned lies and statistics. Fine - but most agree that there are over 65 million people in Thailand (67 million seems to be the current estimate). My calculator tells me that 2.5 million people is 3.85% of the total population of Thailand - an incredible percentage, no question, but is it so incredible in a country where the official estimate of the number of people living below the poverty line is 12.9% ? That’s over 8 million Thai people living on the edge, many in towns where there is little attempt to regulate businesses which may offer a little more than a ‘standard’ massage for another 200 baht. If the majority of your 6 million Thai women between 18 and 38 are somehow magically above that line, then clearly the 2.5 million sex worker estimate is in big trouble, but in a country where the wealth seems to be concentrated in the top 10% of the population I believe the number of sex workers is considerably higher than 300,000.

The numbers I guoted came from various NGO estimates, all of which have been hotly debated by everyone from Stickman to various academics - no question that NGOs will inflate their estimates to justify their ongoing efforts to stop trafficking and HIV in the region, but that’s a more realistic estimate than 300K IMO. Until someone goes into every business and home in Thailand and interviews every single occupant between 18 and 54 - male or female - regarding their income-earning activities, I dont see how anyone will ever come up with a reliable estimate. Given that my estimate may be wildly inflated and yours severely dated, lets go with a million sex workers, male and female, Thai and foreigner - can rural Thailand really afford to lose the income that these men and women are generating ? Even the Russian gals in Pattaya need to eat, sleep and get a moto-taxi to their next assignment : last time I checked, many of the people involved in providing those services came from Isaan. Do the math.

Edited February 2, 2015 by MrWorldwide

[brewsterbudgen]

If it's implemented, this could really hurt. Wonder what sort of jobs the country could offer to these tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of workers.

Try 2-2.5 million sex workers - the NGO estimate - and the countless small businesses who rely on the much-maligned punter (Thai or Farang, they are still punters) and the flow-on income he generates when said sex workers go out and spend their money. Over 6 million people already trying to survive below the poverty line in Thailand - that's a lot of very unhappy campers : cant see the point in adding more people to PT's standing army of the disaffected.

2-2.5 million sexworkers, really? There are 35 million females in Thailand, about 20% of these between the age of 18 to 38, which comes to 6 million. Are you telling me that one third of this age bracket are sexworkers? 200-300 thousand sexworkers (one tenth of your estimate) is right.

Right - given that the estimate in 1964 was 400,000, I suspect that we're both off by several hundred thousand in 2015.

http://www.links.net/vita/swat/course/prosthai.html

There were 20,000 prostitutes in Thailand in 1957; by 1964, after the United States established seven bases in the country, that number had skyrocketed to 400,000.

When was the last time you were in a bar anywhere in Thailand ? There are women well into their fifties still plying their trade. You've also conveniently left out ladyboys and male prostitutes - still a minority but ladyboys are a very visible minority in Pattaya bars and the last time I checked they were born male. Apparently you dont consider the imported workers from Laos, the PI, Eastern Europe and Africa as part of that estimate either, but lets concentrate on your figure of 6 million Thai women between 18 and 38, presumably the oldest women you can see anyone in their right mind hiring for sex.

There were >21 million females aged between 15 and 64 in the 2010 census:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Thailand#CIA_World_Factbook_demographic_statistics

and you're telling us that only 6 million of that number are between 18 and 38, which would put >15 million Thai females somewhere in your 'too young or too old' category. I would suggest that number is closer to 5 million, but lets push on.

These are the original figures from the CIA World Factbook online - they do differ from those cited in the Wikipedia article but were still talking over 21 million females between 15 and 54.

15-24 years: 15% (male 5,194,332/female 4,999,669)

25-54 years: 46.9% (male 15,685,882/female 16,097,245)

The CIA estimate the median age of women in 2014 at 37.2 years - draw your own conclusions from that. Given Thailands historically low birth rate, I believe the demographic were discussing is older than many would like to admit, particularly during a period of full employment.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/th.html

I know - lies, damned lies and statistics. Fine - but most agree that there are over 65 million people in Thailand (67 million seems to be the current estimate). My calculator tells me thats 3.85% of the total population of Thailand - an incredible percentage, no question, but is it so incredible in a country where the official estimate of the number of people living below the poverty line is 12.9% ? Thats over 8 million Thai people living on the edge, many in towns where there is little attempt to regulate businesses which may offer a little more than a standard massage for another 200 baht. If the majority of your 6 million Thai women between 18 and 38 are somehow magically above that line, then clearly the 2.5 million sex worker estimate is in big trouble, but in a country where the wealth seems to be concentrated in the top 10% of the population I believe the number of sex workers is considerably higher than 300,000.

The numbers I guoted came from various NGO estimates, all of which have been hotly debated by everyone from Stickman to various academics - no question that NGOs will inflate their estimates to justify their ongoing efforts to stop trafficking and HIV in the region, but thats a more realistic estimate than 300K IMO. Until someone goes into every business and home in Thailand and interviews every single occupant between 18 and 54 - male or female - regarding their income-earning activities, I dont see how anyone will ever come up with a reliable estimate. Given that my estimate may be wildly inflated and yours severely dated, lets go with a million sex workers, male and female, Thai and foreigner - can rural Thailand really afford to lose the income that these men and women are generating ? Even the Russian gals in Pattaya need to eat, sleep and get a moto-taxi to their next assignment : last time I checked, many of the people involved in providing those services came from Isaan. Do the math.

They're after the trafficked and underage prostitutes, who are unlikely to be Thai, and are working in unregulated places.

[MrWorldwide]

I said earlier in this thread that it will be a token effort, particularly in Pattaya, and this 'raid' seems to confirm that:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/796881-human-trafficking-bar-raids-in-pattaya-and-banglamung/

Note that this is NOT Soi 8 off Second Road near Central Festival and there is no mention of any Thai customers being detained or even questioned. I realise this 'crackdown' has only just been announced, so I guess time will tell whether they're going to extend these little 'meet and greet' operations to the Farang strip.

Any suggestion that they will remove prostitution from Pattaya is laughable, but they might close a few venues for the sake of appearances - no biggie IMO. Nice little earner for their pension funds, though. One can only assume that the 14 women who were arrested here were simply waiting for a friend to finish work at the 7-11 before heading off to the temple.

Age & Nationality checks were made on staff members of the bars and licenses were checked in each of the venues. Banglamung Police did arrest 14 women who were found working in Karaoke Bars in the area but they were fined and later released.

Pattaya's bars and gogos have been tightly regulated for years and bars that step out of line are regularly raided and sometimes shut down for a month or so. Absolutely nothing new and entirely unconnected to the subject of this thread.

Not according to Howard and his mates down at PattayaOne:

Thailand’s Senior Police Officers have ordered a nationwide crackdown on bars and other late night entertainment venues with a special focus on those venues suspected of engaging in human trafficking and prostitution.

and this thread title reads:

Police beef up operations against prostitution in entertainment venues

[MrWorldwide]

@brewsterbugden, I do agree with both points you've made and I dont want to get into a to-and-fro : I was simply trying to point out that no-one here can give me a reliable estimate re the number of sex workers, domestic and foreign, in Thailand but I still believe that any 'blue sky' claims re the eradication of venues which are currently offering women for sex would have a profoundly negative impact on many people in rural Thailand. We can argue the toss re the number of women involved in the industry, but its confronting to realise that there are still so many people in this country who cant even manage the 300 baht minimum wage, the introduction of which saw many on this forum bleating that it would mean the end of Thai civilisation. I wish them every success in Cambo.

[jcisco]

@MrWorldWide..... I'll add that for the sake of the conversation moving forward, 1 Million is a reasonable number, I think its high but not unreasonable.

The real scary figure that is attached to this number is the number of people whom gain employment directly attached to this industry, cashiers, security, food vendors, cleaners, bar staff and so forth. It could be more practical that 1M people are involved in the industry by some direct measure. The number of 2.25 is massive, and while I have no accurate data otherwise, I say its a very unlikely number.