Rubber Tree Plantation/ Cattle Rearing

[Mobi]

I'm in the very early stages of considering a business venture that will involve buying 20 rai of land in Sa Kaeo and using half for a rubber tree plantaion, and the other half for rearing cattle.

I am told that the trees take about 3 years to mature, and rubber can be very profitable. I wasn't aware that rubber plantations existed outside the South, but I have since seen plantations in Sa Kaeo, so presumably the soil and climate is suitable.

I have no idea whether there is money in cows (the four legged variety). Anyone have any idea?

I should emphasis that I know nothing about farming and need to do a lot of research before I commit, but anyone out there who can nudge me in the right direction and give me some advice or the benefit of their knowledge will be much appreciated.

This will be a family project - but I will not invest any more than I can afford to lose.

Edited August 20, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark

[Mr Jones]

could someone tell me what a Rai is? yards or meters will do

Thanks.

Les

[teletiger]

1600 square metres.

regards

[Mobi]

1 Talangwah = 4 sqm

1 acre = 4046 sqm = 2.5 Rai

1 Rai = 1600 sqm = 400 Talangwah

[Mr Jones]

that was quick

thanks

les

[Maizefarmer]

Another potential candidate for the IFFA Isaan Farang Farmers Association?

There is a ton of info on rubber plantations recently on a couple of the threads posted – which will tell you a lot – and there is also a fair bit on cattle.

The short of it – in both cases – is that you have A LOT OF HARD WORK ahead of you, if you are going to make a success of it (i.e. make a living out of it).

The fact that you are saying rubber plantations says something about the land – limited water(??) – in which case you are starting with one hand tied behind your back (commercially) at least as far as cattle are concerned.

So the first question has to be – have you got access to/get a constant supply of fresh and clean water year round?? Yes or No

The second question: what’s currently growing on the land (that will give me some idea of soil condition type, and what it will/can support).

The third question: what happens to that land in the rainy season (does it get all soggy and flooded or does it drain out quite well).

I’m going to stay out of the rubber side of it – know nothing about the subject – but

subject to the answers to the above 3 questions, there may/may not be a livestock potential………….and we’ll take it from there.

Tim

[jamescollister]

I'm in the very early stages of considering a business venture that will involve buying 20 rai of land in Sa Kaeo and using half for a rubber tree plantaion, and the other half for rearing cattle.

I am told that the trees take about 3 years to mature, and rubber can be very profitable. I wasn't aware that rubber plantations existed outside the South, but I have since seen plantations in Sa Kaeo, so presumably the soil and climate is suitable.

I have no idea whether there is money in cows (the four legged variety). Anyone have any idea?

I should emphasis that I know nothing about farming and need to do a lot of research before I commit, but anyone out there who can nudge me in the right direction and give me some advice or the benefit of their knowledge will be much appreciated.

This will be a family project - but I will not invest any more than I can afford to lose.

[Mobi]

Another potential candidate for the IFFA Isaan Farang Farmers Association?

There is a ton of info on rubber plantations recently on a couple of the threads posted – which will tell you a lot – and there is also a fair bit on cattle.

The short of it – in both cases – is that you have A LOT OF HARD WORK ahead of you, if you are going to make a success of it (i.e. make a living out of it).

The fact that you are saying rubber plantations says something about the land – limited water(??) – in which case you are starting with one hand tied behind your back (commercially) at least as far as cattle are concerned.

So the first question has to be – have you got access to/get a constant supply of fresh and clean water year round?? Yes or No

The second question: what’s currently growing on the land (that will give me some idea of soil condition type, and what it will/can support).

The third question: what happens to that land in the rainy season (does it get all soggy and flooded or does it drain out quite well).

I’m going to stay out of the rubber side of it – know nothing about the subject – but

subject to the answers to the above 3 questions, there may/may not be a livestock potential………….and we’ll take it from there.

Tim

Thanks Maizefarmer,

Thats given me a few pointers to get started on.

I should clarify my situation.

I live near Pattaya with my wife, who is from Sa Kaeo. It had been our plan to open a restaurant, or maybe a shop to make the wife a bit more independant and have a separate source of income, rather than me supporting her and her family 100%.

I can afford to do this, but she is still quite young and needs an intersest in life etc etc. She previously ran her own hairdressing business in Bangkok and I was impressed with her record keeping and 'management' skills. Unfortunately it was a lot of work and not enough customers.

I have got to know her family pretty well and they are poor but good people, and are all hard working. As you know this is relatively unusual and it has been my pleasure to help them.

The wife recently came up with this plan that I enumerated above. This is mainly for one of her younger brothers and his wife who are currently working near Amata city in a factory, working long hours, and making around 20K Baht between them per month. They both want to go back to Sa Kaeo and be farmers, and are saving for this. My wife wants top support them and be a partner.

We will have to buy the land, but apparently there is a fair bit going cheap near her sister in Law's village. If I go ahead, the land will be in the wife's name which will be fine, as it will give her added security.

I will also see the land and check the papers etc before committing any money.

So any further advice or info will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Mobi

[jamescollister]

I don't know anything about cattle, but have been planting rubber over the last 4 years or so. First thing is figure out how much you think it will cost then multiply by 4 and thats just for the basic cost of upkeep.

!0 rai will hold about 800 trees they will not be ready to tap untill they are 7 years old. The thais will say 5 years, but this is if everything runs perfect, and they will probably still be too small and thus you will lose rubber out put over the long term. I losted 25% of my new trees afew years ago due to the drought. So factor in hiring a man to water the trees during the dry season, plus ploughing the land at least twice at year for the first 2 or thee years. Afterwhich cutting grass to stop fires, again 2,3 or 4 times a year. Fertilizer is a must and is a big cost and must be done or the trees will not grow strongly. Add to this the 101 little problems that will crop up.

So is it worth the effort or not, I don't know yet. In your case 10 rai will give you a profit of about 100,000 per year if the trees are all good and your tappers are hard working and honest. Out of this you will have to pay tax insurance etc.

If you don,t need the money and it's just for fun I think I would be going for fruit trees, at least you can eat the fruit.

JIM

[Mobi]

Thanks James,

I wouldn't say it's for fun - especially for the brother and his wife - they hope to make a living out of it.

From what you say, it sounds pretty hard work, a five year wait and not a huge return. Not too promising.

Can you, or anyone, recommend any other crop that would provide a higher return, maybe in a shorter turn around?

Investment, within reason, would not be an impediment.

[Maizefarmer]

Mobi

No no, nothing is unusual in the “Land of Smiles” – I’ve heard & seen it all before.

You’ve come back and asked again about crop ideas………

Really need to know something about the land. Example: if cattle are going to be considered one of the crops to grow could be maize (corn). But ain’t going to work on land that is flooded or soaked through during the wet season, and bone dry in the dry season…..

What’s growing there now, and do you have water – and if you haven’t seen the land yet, make sure that when land is chosen that access to year round fresh water is possible (otherwise NOTHING will grow to feed the cattle and there will be a big red dot next to the dry season financial spreadsheets!)

Where is the land relative to what’s around it – is it low or high – and now is the time to be looking (and next month or so). You want to check out land options when things are wet so that you can see what is draining and what is not. Again, land that becomes waterlogged in the wet season is seldom evident as such in the dry season, and you can get spun any story in the dry season. You’ll have a mess on your hands come wet season only to find your chosen land is a bog which you can’t keep cattle on or grow crops on.

Really need to know something about the land and the conditions before anyone can give you pointers on any type of crop of livestock

Tim

[jamescollister]

Mobi

No no, nothing is unusual in the “Land of Smiles” – I’ve heard & seen it all before.

You’ve come back and asked again about crop ideas………

Really need to know something about the land. Example: if cattle are going to be considered one of the crops to grow could be maize (corn). But ain’t going to work on land that is flooded or soaked through during the wet season, and bone dry in the dry season…..

What’s growing there now, and do you have water – and if you haven’t seen the land yet, make sure that when land is chosen that access to year round fresh water is possible (otherwise NOTHING will grow to feed the cattle and there will be a big red dot next to the dry season financial spreadsheets!)

Where is the land relative to what’s around it – is it low or high – and now is the time to be looking (and next month or so). You want to check out land options when things are wet so that you can see what is draining and what is not. Again, land that becomes waterlogged in the wet season is seldom evident as such in the dry season, and you can get spun any story in the dry season. You’ll have a mess on your hands come wet season only to find your chosen land is a bog which you can’t keep cattle on or grow crops on.

Really need to know something about the land and the conditions before anyone can give you pointers on any type of crop of livestock

Tim

[Thaddeus]

I don't know anything about cattle, but have been planting rubber over the last 4 years or so. First thing is figure out how much you think it will cost then multiply by 4 and thats just for the basic cost of upkeep.

!0 rai will hold about 800 trees they will not be ready to tap untill they are 7 years old. The thais will say 5 years, but this is if everything runs perfect, and they will probably still be too small and thus you will lose rubber out put over the long term. I losted 25% of my new trees afew years ago due to the drought. So factor in hiring a man to water the trees during the dry season, plus ploughing the land at least twice at year for the first 2 or thee years. Afterwhich cutting grass to stop fires, again 2,3 or 4 times a year. Fertilizer is a must and is a big cost and must be done or the trees will not grow strongly. Add to this the 101 little problems that will crop up.

So is it worth the effort or not, I don't know yet. In your case 10 rai will give you a profit of about 100,000 per year if the trees are all good and your tappers are hard working and honest. Out of this you will have to pay tax insurance etc.

If you don,t need the money and it's just for fun I think I would be going for fruit trees, at least you can eat the fruit.

JIM

As quoted, rubber is a long term investment, the average production life of a tree is around 35 years if you start to 'bleed; them when they are 7 to 8 years old. You can start earlier, but it does reduce their life-span and output..... as a general rule of thumb, you can normally expect a profit margin of around 10k Baht per rai after you have paid for workers. chemicals etc..... but it is bloody hard work (I know, I am surrounded by rubber...... ooh err ... nurse, the screens) not the sort of thing you want to do as a hobby, properly run business ok, but not a hobby.

[chownah]

Just had a thought....what are the 40 year old trees worth when they finish their productive life?

[jamescollister]

Just had a thought....what are the 40 year old trees worth when they finish their productive life?

[Mobi]

Mobi

No no, nothing is unusual in the “Land of Smiles” – I’ve heard & seen it all before.

You’ve come back and asked again about crop ideas………

Really need to know something about the land. Example: if cattle are going to be considered one of the crops to grow could be maize (corn). But ain’t going to work on land that is flooded or soaked through during the wet season, and bone dry in the dry season…..

What’s growing there now, and do you have water – and if you haven’t seen the land yet, make sure that when land is chosen that access to year round fresh water is possible (otherwise NOTHING will grow to feed the cattle and there will be a big red dot next to the dry season financial spreadsheets!)

Where is the land relative to what’s around it – is it low or high – and now is the time to be looking (and next month or so). You want to check out land options when things are wet so that you can see what is draining and what is not. Again, land that becomes waterlogged in the wet season is seldom evident as such in the dry season, and you can get spun any story in the dry season. You’ll have a mess on your hands come wet season only to find your chosen land is a bog which you can’t keep cattle on or grow crops on.

Really need to know something about the land and the conditions before anyone can give you pointers on any type of crop of livestock

Tim

Thanks Tim, and the others who have posted.

I have found the other recent threads and will try to study all the highly knowledgable comments. I had no idea there were so many farang farmers in Thailand - so we're not all piss artsists after all

I will have to find out about the land. The wife's planning to go up there shortly for an initial forray, so I'll pass on the questions that you have raised, and post when I have the answers.

The rubber thing really sounds like a very long wait, a lot of work and a modest return. I've yet to study the cattle rearing thread. I wonder if that has more promise?

And if not rubber, then what?

As I say, I'll post when I know a bit more about the land.

Thanks

Mobi

Edited August 22, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark

[chownah]

Focus on the water situation.

[Maizefarmer]

Mobi

I have been cattle farming in Isaan (far NorthEast near loei) about 15 years now - a combination of both beef and dairy. It is very much a buisness and is run as such.

I have the European "luxuries" I want, the kids go to good Thai private schools (one is off to Uni in the USA next - I have been able to save enough to finance that), as a family we go on holiday to Europe or the USA twice, a year blah blah, blah blah.......

So - yes, it can be done withseed capital, prep work, business plan for the conditions and limitations, lots of hard work, motivation ..... and everything thats goes towards contributing to the success of any venture.

Get back to the forum when you have answers to the questions asked earlier - I'll drop you a personal message in your mailbox sometime over the next day or so, with more detail regards what info will help you evaluate what the land is good for, or what sort of land you should be looking for (as far as cattle go).

Tim

[bannork]

Just had a thought....what are the 40 year old trees worth when they finish their productive life?

We get them free for slowburning in front of the cow shed at night, the owner's glad that we remove them and they are excellent for the purpose of a continuous red glow and smoke to get rid of mosquitoes.

I have heard they are used in furniture too.

Regarding OP, if your wife's land is not waterlogged in the rainy season you could consider eucalyptus trees, after 3 years they're ready to cut, require minimal maintenance, and reproduce continually.

Problem is they're bad for the soil. and requiring little attendance; it's hardly creative, ie nothing much for the wife's relatives to do,( apart from waste money at cards).

[chownah]

Just had a thought....what are the 40 year old trees worth when they finish their productive life?

We get them free for slowburning in front of the cow shed at night, the owner's glad that we remove them and they are excellent for the purpose of a continuous red glow and smoke to get rid of mosquitoes.

I have heard they are used in furniture too.

Regarding OP, if your wife's land is not waterlogged in the rainy season you could consider eucalyptus trees, after 3 years they're ready to cut, require minimal maintenance, and reproduce continually.

Problem is they're bad for the soil. and requiring little attendance; it's hardly creative, ie nothing much for the wife's relatives to do,( apart from waste money at cards).

I was just wondering because I bought some window frames that they said were made from rubber tree wood and it seemed like perfectly good stuff for that purpose......they didn't talk like it was unusual to use this kind of wood at all.....and wood being so expensive I figured that liquidating the trees when they're done producing could be quite profitable. Do you know why these trees weren't cut into lumber?

Chownah

[jamescollister]

Just had a thought....what are the 40 year old trees worth when they finish their productive life?

[Rinrada]

I don't know anything about cattle, but have been planting rubber over the last 4 years or so. First thing is figure out how much you think it will cost then multiply by 4 and thats just for the basic cost of upkeep.

!0 rai will hold about 800 trees they will not be ready to tap untill they are 7 years old. The thais will say 5 years, but this is if everything runs perfect, and they will probably still be too small and thus you will lose rubber out put over the long term. I losted 25% of my new trees afew years ago due to the drought. So factor in hiring a man to water the trees during the dry season, plus ploughing the land at least twice at year for the first 2 or thee years. Afterwhich cutting grass to stop fires, again 2,3 or 4 times a year. Fertilizer is a must and is a big cost and must be done or the trees will not grow strongly. Add to this the 101 little problems that will crop up.

So is it worth the effort or not, I don't know yet. In your case 10 rai will give you a profit of about 100,000 per year if the trees are all good and your tappers are hard working and honest. Out of this you will have to pay tax insurance etc.

If you don,t need the money and it's just for fun I think I would be going for fruit trees, at least you can eat the fruit.

JIM

Rubber sounds like HARD work....

Our gardner told K W last night that our first new crop of Lam Yai is now coming through.

Hopefully by Oct (next visit) the pineapples will be out again....Mekong & Pineapple/ice...Chiang Mai Slinger...Luvly Jubbly

He only planted the blooming things about six weeks ago......must be summit to do wiff the weather out there.

[Farside]

I'm in the very early stages of considering a business venture that will involve buying 20 rai of land in Sa Kaeo and using half for a rubber tree plantaion, and the other half for rearing cattle.

I am told that the trees take about 3 years to mature, and rubber can be very profitable. I wasn't aware that rubber plantations existed outside the South, but I have since seen plantations in Sa Kaeo, so presumably the soil and climate is suitable.

I have no idea whether there is money in cows (the four legged variety). Anyone have any idea?

I should emphasis that I know nothing about farming and need to do a lot of research before I commit, but anyone out there who can nudge me in the right direction and give me some advice or the benefit of their knowledge will be much appreciated.

This will be a family project - but I will not invest any more than I can afford to lose.

Rubber trees mature between 5-7 years. But you can start getting a little rubber in about 3-4 years time. There is big money to be made in rubber trees at the mo, But don't be fooled into believing you will get really rich because now everyone is doing this which means when they all start to get rubber in a minimum of 3-4 years the price for rubber will drop as there will be so many people growing rubber trees and trying to sell it. I know of lots of people in isaan who grow it and who are just starting to grow it too.

[timber]

The price is up for rubber right now. India and China will need a lot of rubber in the future and more as their economy climbs. I find it hard to think Thailand will produce enough rubber to satisfy the needs of India and China. Rubber tree wood is in demand for lumber not sure what the price is. Seems like a good lumber. If the rubber trees prunned properly you can increase the price of the lumber. The recovery of lumber out of the rubber tree is poor because of the lack of prunning and the poor shape of the tree.

[chang35baht]

The price is up for rubber right now. India and China will need a lot of rubber in the future and more as their economy climbs. I find it hard to think Thailand will produce enough rubber to satisfy the needs of India and China. Rubber tree wood is in demand for lumber not sure what the price is. Seems like a good lumber. If the rubber trees prunned properly you can increase the price of the lumber. The recovery of lumber out of the rubber tree is poor because of the lack of prunning and the poor shape of the tree.

Exactly right. Supply cannot meet demand at the moment. Couple that with the booming economies of India and China, I think demand will remain high for the forseeable future. Albeit new chemical alternatives are being researched now because of the rising cost of rubber.

I was told by a couple of guys who were helping me cut the grass on my farm last week( the rain season is murder) that the value of the trees when no longer tappable was around 50k per rai. They had previously worked in the south on rubber farms.

(Tired) Chang35baht.

P.S. JC why do you keep posting without writing anything? Just curious.

Edited September 2, 2006 by chang35baht

[Mobi]

Ok Guys,

I'm of this afternoon to take a look at the land tomorrow.

So the big questions are drainage during the wet season, and availability of water in the dry season?

I know they are talking of producing rubber after 3 years. Should I say that they must wait for 5 or 6 years? This may put them off

I'll re- read all your other comments and take them with me.

It is clear that it will be very hard work, and there alaso seems to bea consencus that it could be quite profitable in the years to come.

Thanks for all the advice so far and I'll report back next week

Mobi

[guyshown]

I have been away for the last month and see that trhere has been lots of great post. I also have recently joined the rubber plantation(planted this season). Since i grew up farming in the dry lands of Norh Dakota the first thing i did was drill new wells and put in drip irrigation system to each tree. I can tell you because i know from first hand you will not be tapping in three years it's more like seven. I have watched several places inthe the last 4 years trees grow most of them have been very well taken care of and none of them in the 5 year mark will be ready to tap. I gotta run will type more later when have time.

[stoneman]

the first thing i did was drill new wells and put in drip irrigation system to each tree. I can tell you because i know from first hand you will not be tapping in three years it's more like seven. I have watched several places inthe the last 4 years trees grow most of them have been very well taken care of and none of them in the 5 year mark will be ready to tap. I gotta run will type more later when have time.

I also have planted several thousand rubber trees over the past 4 1/2 years . I would be very interested in particulars about your drip irrigation system. I have a deep water well and the necessary pump for it. I have about 1300 trees that I want to put onto this system..

[mark131v]

Good topic fellas, didnt realise so many other falangs where doing this. I have 100rai up near Nong Khai and they have been in the ground about a year now (visited them couple of weeks ago while in LOS all looks good) We to are doing it as a family thing basically the wifes two brothers doing all the work they have experience they have been doing the work for themselves and other guys in the area for about 5 years. Good advice is to look around the area and see what other people are growing however this is not foolproof as a lot of Thais want to grow rubber but cant afford to wait for it to mature. Also iam lucky the in laws are very experienced with this subject i have a feeling if they dont know what they are doing you could lose a lot of money. I have also spoken to a french guy i know and he advised me that if you tap the trees at for example the 5-6 year point you can lose upto 25% of the annual yield than if you wait till the 7 year point. Cant vouch were he got that info but he is a guy i trust and he has been around a bit. How are you going to split the money the way we have proposed is that i have bought the land and purchased the trees and all the running costs (fertilizer labour over the years) then when the trees are ready its simply a 50/50 split of the profits. The figires we have come to is approx 50k baht per year running costs (the family is looking long term so i think we are getting a good deal) and that at recent prices should give a profit of 1.8 million to me and the same to the brothers providing everything goes well and nothing ever goes according to plan in farming. Long term i think it is a good investment better than any pension plan but like everything there could be pitfalls the Thais will quite naturally want to tap early which is understandable so i had to make them realise that we are waiting till 7 years and we will all be better off. The natural Thai concept is to try to utilise the ground beneath between the trees for some other short term cash crop again you have got to persuade them that this is not such a good idea you want the trees to get all the nutrients they can in the early years. Probably the most important bit of advice is that you need to put a lot of trust into this like we said this is long term and the family or whoever you get to do the work you will have to trust 100%. Well my typing finger is sore so i will leave it there but some food for thought heh good luck with whatever you choose to do mark

[Mobi]

Here's the progress report.

There has been a lot of rain and a lot of waterlogged ground and swollen rivers and fords in Sa Kaeo. The area around the wife's village was very sodden with plenty of submerged fields and torrential rivers.

I went to see the land yesterday morning. The location is in the Khao Chackan region, about half an hour's drive from my wife's village. On the way to the land we had to drive through a deep ford and again there was plenty of water around and general ground flooding. The land for sale was in an elevated position, and completely free of water. We looked at 16 rai that was for sale and it was full of fertile looking yams which will be harvested at the end of the year. Yams seem to be quite a popular crop in the area.

My wife then showed me another area of 9 rai, which was nearby, but not quite as elevated, but still dry and full of yet more yams. She then informed me that she had already bought this 9 rai, as she couldn't wait for me to make up my mind and was worried that another buyer might snap it up.

We then looked at some more land that was for sale nearby, but at least 2 rai of this was under water, and all in all it didn't look as good as the other land. I was told that there may be further, better land for sale in the same area in the near future.

The 9 rai already bought cost 10,000 baht per Rai, and the 16 rai up for sale is going for 12,500 Baht per rai. I was told that land in the area has increased by around 2,000 Baht per Rai in the past 3 months.

I asked about water during the dry months, and was told that there is plenty of water available form nearby rivers (I certainly drove over a couple of deep flowing rivers), and the water could be delivered to the trees by water truck.

They knew about fertilizer, clearing the ground and other pointers mentioned in the thread. The land will be worked by my wife's family, with her younger brother will be taking a leading role. The deal is 60% profit to us (wifey and me) and 40 % to the brother.

I put 5K deposit on the 16 Rai, and if we go ahead, the wife will go back next week to close the deal.

The plan is that the current crop will be left and harvested at the end of the year, when the land will be cleared and prepared for the rubber trees. If any further land is available, we might consider buying.

After initial hostility from wife on my attempts to 'interfere', she now accepts that I may have something to contribute and is willing to listen. Even if we buy the land, we are not committed to going the rubber tree route until we have done an in depth evaluation. At the end of the day, the land value will appreciate, so we won't have lost anything.

The cattle rearing plan is put on hold - wife doesn't want to kill cows, and she says dairy herds are too hard.

So it's rubber rubber rubber

There are a few other smallish rubber plantations in the area, but none fully matured. We drove past a few which were probably between 1 and 3 years old. Some looked better than others, but they all looked quite healthy.

BTW there was an article in the B Post about importing rubber trees from Burma as there was a sever shortage in Thailand. The trees are used for making furniture and children's toys.

Comments, suggestions from you trusty farmers out there.

Edited September 4, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark