Rare anti-coup protest in Thailand

[heybruce]

We are discussing the latest coup and how it could happen.. without Thaksin adding his name to the list there would not be a coup as it would not have gotten the response to start protesting. if you want to go back in history have fun, i prefer to keep it current.

A famous quote says something along the lines of "those who don't learn from history live to make the same mistakes"

That is exactly why the current coup is going to improve Thailand. It has learned from previous coup's. You hit the nail right on the head.

Dream on!!!

[Johpa]

U havent been here as long as I have.....trust me....the peoples votes are still paid for anytime there is an election.....

Well I have been here a long time and I have seen the change. Yes, there is still payments going out for some votes and yes Thaksin is himself no less corrupt than his predecessors or adversaries. But there has been an awakening amongst the up-country masses (not always rural these days) and they want their voices heard and they want to be shown a modicum of respect. Since both sides can easily come up with the money to buy votes, one must ask what did Thaksin offer that his opponents did not. And I think a big part was that Thaksin did not talk down to the people, he can speak their language. Nor did he openly insult their intelligence as many of the Bangkok elite leaders have done in the past (e,g. Sondhi Limthongkul) to argue against a popular vote (democracy). And Thaksin threw the poorer folks some bones from his corrupt schemes. It was probably not Thaksin's intent, but he has let the genie out of the bottle. But the real seeds for the current changes began back in the 1990s with the long "protest for the poor" movements (sorry, I can't recall the exact name) that took place in Bangkok and led to the mentoring of hundreds of younger people who then returned to their villages. Combine their influence with the impact of social media available and used by just about everyone, and I don't know how one can not see the changes taking place. Clearly there are many influential people in Bangkok who see and fear this inevitable change.

[lildragon]

U havent been here as long as I have.....trust me....the peoples votes are still paid for anytime there is an election.....

Well I have been here a long time and I have seen the change. Yes, there is still payments going out for some votes and yes Thaksin is himself no less corrupt than his predecessors or adversaries. But there has been an awakening amongst the up-country masses (not always rural these days) and they want their voices heard and they want to be shown a modicum of respect. Since both sides can easily come up with the money to buy votes, one must ask what did Thaksin offer that his opponents did not. And I think a big part was that Thaksin did not talk down to the people, he can speak their language. Nor did he openly insult their intelligence as many of the Bangkok elite leaders have done in the past (e,g. Sondhi Limthongkul) to argue against a popular vote (democracy). And Thaksin threw the poorer folks some bones from his corrupt schemes. It was probably not Thaksin's intent, but he has let the genie out of the bottle. But the real seeds for the current changes began back in the 1990s with the long "protest for the poor" movements (sorry, I can't recall the exact name) that took place in Bangkok and led to the mentoring of hundreds of younger people who then returned to their villages. Combine their influence with the impact of social media available and used by just about everyone, and I don't know how one can not see the changes taking place. Clearly there are many influential people in Bangkok who see and fear this inevitable change.

Pretty much sums up the whole situation.

Love or hate Thaksin he awakened the poor. They rightly want their seat at the table and that makes the upper classes very uncomfortable. They'd rather keep all their bread and the crumbs.

There is peace now but social unrest is bound to happen again soon if no election date is given at some point this year.

[Been There]

U havent been here as long as I have.....trust me....the peoples votes are still paid for anytime there is an election.....

on all sides .....

[khunsiam]

Nope, the plan was hatched in late 2010 and Sutherp was tasked with the job outside while the military plot inside. Not hard to see as the modus operandi was similar to the 2005 Sonthi lead demonstrations leading to the the coup. In 2009 the judiciary did their part for their version of the coup. This is no return to democracy but just the establishment clinging on to power by brute force.

probably, but I mean that I was informed in july 2013 that the decision was made to start the uprising within a few months and guerilla tactics used if necessary.

[bobmac10]

Robblok ......lost cause

Why - because he says what he believes?

Did Thaksin orchestrate PTP to use an amnesty bill to whitewash his conviction, sentence, bail jumping and all outstanding charges?

Did they do as told - 310-0 after sending the opposition home before the vote and conning them the vote would be the next day?

Would seem Rob's correct.

Thaksin must have reeled at the strength at public outrages against the whitewash of his crimes and those of his clan. Then came the usual statements, changes in tactics, parallel attacks, murders and intimidation, with calls to return home, trust us and lies the amnesty bill was withdrawn. Many thought that Thaksin was trying to provoke a coup to garner international support and maybe intervention. His toady cousin was running around trying to plead the case.

How long would the army of stayed out? Were the calls for Lana insurrection, civil war, marching on Bangkok and the applauding Children's murders designed to prompt the military into action? Or would the military have acted anyway?

Thaksin needed that bill - he can't get back without it. A jail sentence, bail jumping charges, and 15 serious criminal charges waiting without it. Once parliament was dissolved, a new election before any reforms frustrated, he was not going to be in control when the dubious bill returned to the house and could be voted into law. Maybe he thought a coup might bring such pressure on Thailand to hold new elections quick;y, and without reforms.

What you Baerboxer and other fellow travellers continue to ignore is the evidence in front of you.

Despite having it spelt out to you over and over again you choose to turn a blind eye towards it.

Like a bunch of children who don't want to look at the truth, you continue to reinforce each others mantras.

Chanting continually, THIS TIME it will be different.

THIS TIME will be the new beginning.

THIS TIME the army will do the right thing.

Despite the evidence showing that the military is just another wing of the corrupt elite families who have run Thailand since the feudal ages

Despite showing you that the military is an elite structure of powerful family dynasties going back generations who always have run Thailand.

Despite the evidence on the public record of the fabulous wealth accumulated by the retired top military brass.

Despite the list of names of the retired generals on the boards of the oldest large public companies.

Despite the historical evidence which clearly demonstrates that Thailand is still a fractured society where a small number of elite families control most of the country's wealth and despite the 19 military coups, the status quo has hardly changed.

Oh no, you ignore it all and continue to repeat ad nauseum... Thaksin was corrupt, it's all his fault.

Well, your arguments are hollow and stupid, and every time to repeat your mantra, you show yourselves for what you really are, deaf, blind and plain dumb.

As a counterpoint to your ridiculous argument that the military rule is the answer I would like to repeat an artice I posted on TV last week.

It's about the foundation of democracy in a nation that was ruled by corrupt families, England. 800 years ago.

Now if your argument prevailed, the same people would still be running the nation through it's proxies the military.

However, thank God, there was a democratic revolution in the form of a document, a bill of rights if you will.

see below:

I notice an article in today's news regarding the four surviving original copies of the Magna Carta which are on display in London as Britain begins 800th anniversary celebrations of the globally significant contract.

Considered the cornerstone of modern democracy, liberty, justice and the rule of law, the 1215 English charter forms the basis for legal systems around the world, such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the US Constitution.

i was thinking perhaps we could loan the Junta a copy for some after hours study?

Some excerpts:

"No free man shall be taken or imprisoned or disseized or outlawed or exiled or in any way ruined, nor will we go and send against him except by the lawful judgement of his peers by the law of the land," the document states in Latin.

"To no one will we sell, to no one will we deny or delay right or justice."

Brilliant! and only 800 years ago!

The principles of the Magna Carta extend well beyond the world's common law jurisdictions such as the United States, India and Australia which inherited England's legal system.

Lawyer David Wootton, a former lord mayor of London, said English law was the "common currency" of global business deals precisely due to the protections derived from Magna Carta.

"Investors regard their money as safe here (in London) because of the protections in the legal system," he said.

"There is a close relationship between economic development, societal development and the quality of a country's legal system."

Now I don't want to hear that stupid argument about how the Thais couldn't handle democracy.

Ordinary Thais want what the rest of us want — fair government, the rule of law, a chance to build a better life for their children. It’s a fallacy that don’t care about being able to speak freely and to vote in democratic elections, because they are primitive superstitious folk who believe that instead of striving for a better future in this life, they should just patiently wait to be reincarnated higher up the social hierarchy in the next life. It should be glaringly obvious from the events of the past decade that millions of ordinary Thais want progressive change now, and that the arcadian vision of humble smiling people contentedly accepting the injustices of their society is total hogwash.

So Baerboxer, Northern John, Fatty, Smedley, tvjaimie, Robblok et al, stop this rubbish and go read a book about Thai history.

[MrPerfect]

A famous quote says something along the lines of "those who don't learn from history live to make the same mistakes"

That is exactly why the current coup is going to improve Thailand. It has learned from previous coup's. You hit the nail right on the head.

Only problem here mate is that the previous coups occurred in a totally different environment than the one faced today. Smart phones, social media and the internet are ubiquitous. The truth cannot be hidden, the people cannot be kept in the dark and isolated from each other whilst being force fed state propaganda. Short of confiscating all iPhones and shutting down Line - this coup will fail in achieving its goal of ensuring Thai society is wound back and then permanently stuck in the 1950's. The coup is the only thing stopping Thailand from improving.

[lildragon]

Great post bobmac10!

Edited February 16, 2015 by lildragon

[Baerboxer]

Baerboxer.....lost cause

bobmac10................ no ability to rationalize and discuss.

[Baerboxer]

Great post bobmac10!

Yep - just the sort of unintelligent post the Shin supporters love.

No intelligent argument from them.

[Baerboxer]

A famous quote says something along the lines of "those who don't learn from history live to make the same mistakes"

That is exactly why the current coup is going to improve Thailand. It has learned from previous coup's. You hit the nail right on the head.

Only problem here mate is that the previous coups occurred in a totally different environment than the one faced today. Smart phones, social media and the internet are ubiquitous. The truth cannot be hidden, the people cannot be kept in the dark and isolated from each other whilst being force fed state propaganda. Short of confiscating all iPhones and shutting down Line - this coup will fail in achieving its goal of ensuring Thai society is wound back and then permanently stuck in the 1950's. The coup is the only thing stopping Thailand from improving.

Agree that social media scares most governments. But please explain how bringing back a criminal fugitive, whitewashing his conviction, sentence, bail jumping offense, and the 15 serious outstanding charges in court waiting his return would have helped Thailand improve?

[Baerboxer]

Robblok ......lost cause

Why - because he says what he believes?

Did Thaksin orchestrate PTP to use an amnesty bill to whitewash his conviction, sentence, bail jumping and all outstanding charges?

Did they do as told - 310-0 after sending the opposition home before the vote and conning them the vote would be the next day?

Would seem Rob's correct.

Thaksin must have reeled at the strength at public outrages against the whitewash of his crimes and those of his clan. Then came the usual statements, changes in tactics, parallel attacks, murders and intimidation, with calls to return home, trust us and lies the amnesty bill was withdrawn. Many thought that Thaksin was trying to provoke a coup to garner international support and maybe intervention. His toady cousin was running around trying to plead the case.

How long would the army of stayed out? Were the calls for Lana insurrection, civil war, marching on Bangkok and the applauding Children's murders designed to prompt the military into action? Or would the military have acted anyway?

Thaksin needed that bill - he can't get back without it. A jail sentence, bail jumping charges, and 15 serious criminal charges waiting without it. Once parliament was dissolved, a new election before any reforms frustrated, he was not going to be in control when the dubious bill returned to the house and could be voted into law. Maybe he thought a coup might bring such pressure on Thailand to hold new elections quick;y, and without reforms.

What you Baerboxer and other fellow travellers continue to ignore is the evidence in front of you.

Despite having it spelt out to you over and over again you choose to turn a blind eye towards it.

Like a bunch of children who don't want to look at the truth, you continue to reinforce each others mantras.

Chanting continually, THIS TIME it will be different.

THIS TIME will be the new beginning.

THIS TIME the army will do the right thing.

Despite the evidence showing that the military is just another wing of the corrupt elite families who have run Thailand since the feudal ages

Despite showing you that the military is an elite structure of powerful family dynasties going back generations who always have run Thailand.

Despite the evidence on the public record of the fabulous wealth accumulated by the retired top military brass.

Despite the list of names of the retired generals on the boards of the oldest large public companies.

Despite the historical evidence which clearly demonstrates that Thailand is still a fractured society where a small number of elite families control most of the country's wealth and despite the 19 military coups, the status quo has hardly changed.

Oh no, you ignore it all and continue to repeat ad nauseum... Thaksin was corrupt, it's all his fault.

Well, your arguments are hollow and stupid, and every time to repeat your mantra, you show yourselves for what you really are, deaf, blind and plain dumb.

As a counterpoint to your ridiculous argument that the military rule is the answer I would like to repeat an artice I posted on TV last week.

It's about the foundation of democracy in a nation that was ruled by corrupt families, England. 800 years ago.

Now if your argument prevailed, the same people would still be running the nation through it's proxies the military.

However, thank God, there was a democratic revolution in the form of a document, a bill of rights if you will.

see below:

I notice an article in today's news regarding the four surviving original copies of the Magna Carta which are on display in London as Britain begins 800th anniversary celebrations of the globally significant contract.

Considered the cornerstone of modern democracy, liberty, justice and the rule of law, the 1215 English charter forms the basis for legal systems around the world, such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the US Constitution.

i was thinking perhaps we could loan the Junta a copy for some after hours study?

Some excerpts:

"No free man shall be taken or imprisoned or disseized or outlawed or exiled or in any way ruined, nor will we go and send against him except by the lawful judgement of his peers by the law of the land," the document states in Latin.

"To no one will we sell, to no one will we deny or delay right or justice."

Brilliant! and only 800 years ago!

The principles of the Magna Carta extend well beyond the world's common law jurisdictions such as the United States, India and Australia which inherited England's legal system.

Lawyer David Wootton, a former lord mayor of London, said English law was the "common currency" of global business deals precisely due to the protections derived from Magna Carta.

"Investors regard their money as safe here (in London) because of the protections in the legal system," he said.

"There is a close relationship between economic development, societal development and the quality of a country's legal system."

Now I don't want to hear that stupid argument about how the Thais couldn't handle democracy.

Ordinary Thais want what the rest of us want — fair government, the rule of law, a chance to build a better life for their children. It’s a fallacy that don’t care about being able to speak freely and to vote in democratic elections, because they are primitive superstitious folk who believe that instead of striving for a better future in this life, they should just patiently wait to be reincarnated higher up the social hierarchy in the next life. It should be glaringly obvious from the events of the past decade that millions of ordinary Thais want progressive change now, and that the arcadian vision of humble smiling people contentedly accepting the injustices of their society is total hogwash.

So Baerboxer, Northern John, Fatty, Smedley, tvjaimie, Robblok et al, stop this rubbish and go read a book about Thai history.

Do you have comprehension problems?

Where have I said this coup is different? Read things more carefully and stop letting your seeming dislike of the elite rich families that control Thailand cloud your judgement.

There has never been a fair democratic society or government in Thailand. There is a feudal hierarchy and patronage, underpinned by a Justice system that bases judgement on wealth, family and connection more than justice when interpreting deliberately vaguely written laws. Thailand will never change without the significant social, legal and political upheavals it requires.

What I object to, and comment on, is people suggesting Thaksin and his clan are some sort of benevolent social fair minded reformers trying to create a better society for all. They are not. They are a greedy very wealthy family who have risen to vast wealth by exploiting the political situation and conning the poor masses into believing their lies. Thaksin is very clever and an astute manipulator. He's also a megalomaniac and sociopath who doesn't care how he gets what he wants or how it effects others.

This whole mess is about one rich elite extended family, new money and new comers, trying, with their allies to wrest control from the old established wealthy families who think power and control is their's by right. Neither have done, or will do, anything that would weaken their own situation.

Your reference to Magna Carta is interesting. As a keen student of history, you will know that was an agreement between the King, John, and his barons. They wanted more control and more rights for themselves. How much do you think that improved the lot of the average person? Do a little research. For instance, what % of the population could vote at the time of the English civil war, before and after? What % of soldiers of voting age who fought in WW1 didn't have the vote? When did ladies receive the vote? When was the House of Lords reformed?

Magna Carta was an agreement between the rich and powerful, that contained few benefits for the poor, no imprisonment without trial being one. Real social reform in England, Britain and the UK then took several hundred years, many wars including two terrible world wars to evolve. Magna Carta was a start, a very small one.

You should practice what you preach. Research is very easy these days. Read up on the Magna Carta and what it was really about, written by History professors rather than BBC journalists, to get a balanced view on the reasons for it, and results, including how it was actually implemented. Read up on how the poor masses really fared in England, Britain and the UK since Magna Carta particularly the qualification to vote, suffrage, and laws effecting the poor and how they didn't get the same treatment as the wealthy for many hundreds of years.

Magna Carta took absolute rule from the monarch and placed it with the powerful barons and other wealthy families and members of the community. It did not abolish slavery (serfdom) or create a fair, justice, free, democratic society for all. It was a start, and a very slow one at that. How much of Magna Carta do you believe is relevant today, and directly related to the law of England and Wales today?

Please stop the nonsense of pretending Thaksin and cronies are social reformers working for a fair society - they're not.

[Baerboxer]

U havent been here as long as I have.....trust me....the peoples votes are still paid for anytime there is an election.....

Well I have been here a long time and I have seen the change. Yes, there is still payments going out for some votes and yes Thaksin is himself no less corrupt than his predecessors or adversaries. But there has been an awakening amongst the up-country masses (not always rural these days) and they want their voices heard and they want to be shown a modicum of respect. Since both sides can easily come up with the money to buy votes, one must ask what did Thaksin offer that his opponents did not. And I think a big part was that Thaksin did not talk down to the people, he can speak their language. Nor did he openly insult their intelligence as many of the Bangkok elite leaders have done in the past (e,g. Sondhi Limthongkul) to argue against a popular vote (democracy). And Thaksin threw the poorer folks some bones from his corrupt schemes. It was probably not Thaksin's intent, but he has let the genie out of the bottle. But the real seeds for the current changes began back in the 1990s with the long "protest for the poor" movements (sorry, I can't recall the exact name) that took place in Bangkok and led to the mentoring of hundreds of younger people who then returned to their villages. Combine their influence with the impact of social media available and used by just about everyone, and I don't know how one can not see the changes taking place. Clearly there are many influential people in Bangkok who see and fear this inevitable change.

Pretty much sums up the whole situation.

Love or hate Thaksin he awakened the poor. They rightly want their seat at the table and that makes the upper classes very uncomfortable. They'd rather keep all their bread and the crumbs.

There is peace now but social unrest is bound to happen again soon if no election date is given at some point this year.

Do you seriously believe Thaksin would give the poor seats at his table?

Maybe the odd useful self appointed red shirt leader. But real reform ? Only if it made his position stronger or lined his clan's pockets.

Hopefully the poor have now woken up to him, his clan as well.

Sadly, no real leaders are springing up to champion the poor.

[ginjag]

The lady said she wants democracy back, Being elected doesn't mean the government is going to rule democratically. PTP were elected but were NOT democratic hence the ousting of Yingluck.

I applaud opposing sides airing their views, But the reasons because the army intervened took topple their darling.

We had a government who governed undemocratically, We have an army controlling that is not democratically voted in, BACK TO BASICS IS REQUIRED HERE, and a chance the PM can eventually make SOME inroads.

Talking nonsense. Do you know the meaning of democracy?

Sadly you do not, if you think that PTP government was run democratically. Being elected does NOT entitle you to be undemocratic. I see you are among this aggravating group (minority by a long way) on TVF. doesn't that tell you something DOH.

No, not a minority at all. It is you who who misunderstands the word "democracy' . The PTP government WAS elected democratically .Sure it made mistakes but all democratic governments do the same..

Thats why those inept governments are then booted out by the voters ! It's called "democracy "DOH!

There was NEVER Democracy in Thailand---your fooling yourself.Quote-PTP "sure it made mistakes" Democratically elected YES, but read what I said---did not govern as sworn in to do so, therefore was not governed democratically DOH DOH DOH.

[Baerboxer]

U havent been here as long as I have.....trust me....the peoples votes are still paid for anytime there is an election.....

Well I have been here a long time and I have seen the change. Yes, there is still payments going out for some votes and yes Thaksin is himself no less corrupt than his predecessors or adversaries. But there has been an awakening amongst the up-country masses (not always rural these days) and they want their voices heard and they want to be shown a modicum of respect. Since both sides can easily come up with the money to buy votes, one must ask what did Thaksin offer that his opponents did not. And I think a big part was that Thaksin did not talk down to the people, he can speak their language. Nor did he openly insult their intelligence as many of the Bangkok elite leaders have done in the past (e,g. Sondhi Limthongkul) to argue against a popular vote (democracy). And Thaksin threw the poorer folks some bones from his corrupt schemes. It was probably not Thaksin's intent, but he has let the genie out of the bottle. But the real seeds for the current changes began back in the 1990s with the long "protest for the poor" movements (sorry, I can't recall the exact name) that took place in Bangkok and led to the mentoring of hundreds of younger people who then returned to their villages. Combine their influence with the impact of social media available and used by just about everyone, and I don't know how one can not see the changes taking place. Clearly there are many influential people in Bangkok who see and fear this inevitable change.

You are right. But those who fear the change, will do all they can to resist that change. And those who can exploit that will continue to for as long as possible.

[bobmac10]

U havent been here as long as I have.....trust me....the peoples votes are still paid for anytime there is an election.....

Well I have been here a long time and I have seen the change. Yes, there is still payments going out for some votes and yes Thaksin is himself no less corrupt than his predecessors or adversaries. But there has been an awakening amongst the up-country masses (not always rural these days) and they want their voices heard and they want to be shown a modicum of respect. Since both sides can easily come up with the money to buy votes, one must ask what did Thaksin offer that his opponents did not. And I think a big part was that Thaksin did not talk down to the people, he can speak their language. Nor did he openly insult their intelligence as many of the Bangkok elite leaders have done in the past (e,g. Sondhi Limthongkul) to argue against a popular vote (democracy). And Thaksin threw the poorer folks some bones from his corrupt schemes. It was probably not Thaksin's intent, but he has let the genie out of the bottle. But the real seeds for the current changes began back in the 1990s with the long "protest for the poor" movements (sorry, I can't recall the exact name) that took place in Bangkok and led to the mentoring of hundreds of younger people who then returned to their villages. Combine their influence with the impact of social media available and used by just about everyone, and I don't know how one can not see the changes taking place. Clearly there are many influential people in Bangkok who see and fear this inevitable change.

You are right. But those who fear the change, will do all they can to resist that change. And those who can exploit that will continue to for as long as possible.

Baerboxer, stop making excuses for the Junta.

There can and never will be any good reason for the military to continue to interfere in Thailand's progress towards democracy.

You have consistently supported the Junta in all your previous posts.

Now you are trying to back track.

you ignore the facts and throw a red herring in regarding my post about the Magna Carta.

My point was the Magna Carta was the beginning of a democratic movement with the recognition of free thought and expression.

Of course it took hundreds of years, but what else would one expect in the times.

Thailand is living in the 21st century with plently of examples and willing nations who might help them.

The Junta are trying to turn back the clock and pretend it's all in the name of protecting Thailand and its culture.

What a load of malarky.

Yes the genie is out of the bottle and if these military families and their elite cronies don't wake up and realise their time is over there will be revolution here.

There will be much suffering, but eventually the tide will turn.

The desire from the Thai people is real, I discuss this constantly with the "ordinary folk" who are keeping their powder dry and patiently waiting.

[Fat Haggis]

And you don't think that the ones who fear the change the most are the military?

Finally being held accountable by the people for all 19 coups?

The sooner there's no more amnesties given by themselves the better, as it puts them on the same level playing field as all other mere mortals in Thailand !!!

[heybruce]

A famous quote says something along the lines of "those who don't learn from history live to make the same mistakes"

That is exactly why the current coup is going to improve Thailand. It has learned from previous coup's. You hit the nail right on the head.

Only problem here mate is that the previous coups occurred in a totally different environment than the one faced today. Smart phones, social media and the internet are ubiquitous. The truth cannot be hidden, the people cannot be kept in the dark and isolated from each other whilst being force fed state propaganda. Short of confiscating all iPhones and shutting down Line - this coup will fail in achieving its goal of ensuring Thai society is wound back and then permanently stuck in the 1950's. The coup is the only thing stopping Thailand from improving.

Agree that social media scares most governments. But please explain how bringing back a criminal fugitive, whitewashing his conviction, sentence, bail jumping offense, and the 15 serious outstanding charges in court waiting his return would have helped Thailand improve?

You mean his conviction under a junta installed government? But your point is taken, in your mind only coup leaders deserve amnesty.

Now please tell us how this coup, unlike all the past coups, will help Thailand improve? Unless you define "improve" as protecting the country for democracy.

[brucec64]

I just posted that I "Like" ddjamie's post. He had some very thoughtful comments in support of Phrayut that I agree with. In the situation that was confronting Thailand last May, a coup might actually have been the only reasonable option.

I truly hope the good General succeeds in his efforts to revamp the Thai political scene, but I also hope that he understands that big things spawn from small beginnings.

The army let the situation occur, they supported the Yellow crims behind the scenes, they armed Sutheps thugs, they funded the illegal rioting, they undermined the police and they where derelict in their self appointed duty of protecting the Thai people from internal threats. He cannot succeed, he can only delay the inevitable, enjoy your 5 minutes of nationalistic, right wing semi-fascism, democracy always triumphs.

No it was Thaksin that started it all, the PTP would still be in power if he had not let them add his name to the amnesty list (after they send the opposition home to vote on it an other pearl of democratic example). It was this that channeled the opposition and led to the downfall of the PTP and the rule of the junta. When will the redshirts get their facts straight. Probably never as it im embarrassing to them to see how selfish their leader is and how he breaks it all down.

Even the redshirt leaders acknowledge that it was this action that led to the demise of the government.

So Thaksin is behind all the woes in Thailand since 1932 then and all 19 coups were his fault?

I take it you can't find the common denominator in every single coup that's took place as you're too busy looking at the trees and unable to see the woods?

Sure Thaksin is a megalomaniac but he's in good company these days as there's a few about who are cut from the same cloth but it's just a different colour ie, yellow and green!

We are discussing the latest coup and how it could happen.. without Thaksin adding his name to the list there would not be a coup as it would not have gotten the response to start protesting. if you want to go back in history have fun, i prefer to keep it current.

A famous quote says something along the lines of "those who don't learn from history live to make the same mistakes"

That is exactly why the current coup is going to improve Thailand. It has learned from previous coup's. You hit the nail right on the head.

But didn't the last coup learn from the coup before that? Or is coup number 19 where they suddenly get it right? They don't seem to be very good at this...

[lildragon]

U havent been here as long as I have.....trust me....the peoples votes are still paid for anytime there is an election.....

Well I have been here a long time and I have seen the change. Yes, there is still payments going out for some votes and yes Thaksin is himself no less corrupt than his predecessors or adversaries. But there has been an awakening amongst the up-country masses (not always rural these days) and they want their voices heard and they want to be shown a modicum of respect. Since both sides can easily come up with the money to buy votes, one must ask what did Thaksin offer that his opponents did not. And I think a big part was that Thaksin did not talk down to the people, he can speak their language. Nor did he openly insult their intelligence as many of the Bangkok elite leaders have done in the past (e,g. Sondhi Limthongkul) to argue against a popular vote (democracy). And Thaksin threw the poorer folks some bones from his corrupt schemes. It was probably not Thaksin's intent, but he has let the genie out of the bottle. But the real seeds for the current changes began back in the 1990s with the long "protest for the poor" movements (sorry, I can't recall the exact name) that took place in Bangkok and led to the mentoring of hundreds of younger people who then returned to their villages. Combine their influence with the impact of social media available and used by just about everyone, and I don't know how one can not see the changes taking place. Clearly there are many influential people in Bangkok who see and fear this inevitable change.

Pretty much sums up the whole situation.

Love or hate Thaksin he awakened the poor. They rightly want their seat at the table and that makes the upper classes very uncomfortable. They'd rather keep all their bread and the crumbs.

There is peace now but social unrest is bound to happen again soon if no election date is given at some point this year.

Do you seriously believe Thaksin would give the poor seats at his table?

Maybe the odd useful self appointed red shirt leader. But real reform ? Only if it made his position stronger or lined his clan's pockets.

Hopefully the poor have now woken up to him, his clan as well.

Sadly, no real leaders are springing up to champion the poor.

Thaksin of course used populist policies for his own greedy gains, but what he did (engaging the poor, not being condesending and sneering at them as previous BKK elitists politicians had done) has changed Thailand forever. I hope the poor break away from the red shirt movement and people like Charlem who are so hypocritical with his pink Bentley talking about being a champion of the poor, and protest peacefully at the years of injustice suffered from non caring BKK elites.

Coups haven't fixed anything before. People say oh but THIS one is different, I hope it is in terms of being the LAST one. The military can't go on interfering in politics forever.

[Baerboxer]

U havent been here as long as I have.....trust me....the peoples votes are still paid for anytime there is an election.....

Well I have been here a long time and I have seen the change. Yes, there is still payments going out for some votes and yes Thaksin is himself no less corrupt than his predecessors or adversaries. But there has been an awakening amongst the up-country masses (not always rural these days) and they want their voices heard and they want to be shown a modicum of respect. Since both sides can easily come up with the money to buy votes, one must ask what did Thaksin offer that his opponents did not. And I think a big part was that Thaksin did not talk down to the people, he can speak their language. Nor did he openly insult their intelligence as many of the Bangkok elite leaders have done in the past (e,g. Sondhi Limthongkul) to argue against a popular vote (democracy). And Thaksin threw the poorer folks some bones from his corrupt schemes. It was probably not Thaksin's intent, but he has let the genie out of the bottle. But the real seeds for the current changes began back in the 1990s with the long "protest for the poor" movements (sorry, I can't recall the exact name) that took place in Bangkok and led to the mentoring of hundreds of younger people who then returned to their villages. Combine their influence with the impact of social media available and used by just about everyone, and I don't know how one can not see the changes taking place. Clearly there are many influential people in Bangkok who see and fear this inevitable change.

You are right. But those who fear the change, will do all they can to resist that change. And those who can exploit that will continue to for as long as possible.

Baerboxer, stop making excuses for the Junta.

There can and never will be any good reason for the military to continue to interfere in Thailand's progress towards democracy.

You have consistently supported the Junta in all your previous posts.

Now you are trying to back track.

you ignore the facts and throw a red herring in regarding my post about the Magna Carta.

My point was the Magna Carta was the beginning of a democratic movement with the recognition of free thought and expression.

Of course it took hundreds of years, but what else would one expect in the times.

Thailand is living in the 21st century with plently of examples and willing nations who might help them.

The Junta are trying to turn back the clock and pretend it's all in the name of protecting Thailand and its culture.

What a load of malarky.

Yes the genie is out of the bottle and if these military families and their elite cronies don't wake up and realise their time is over there will be revolution here.

There will be much suffering, but eventually the tide will turn.

The desire from the Thai people is real, I discuss this constantly with the "ordinary folk" who are keeping their powder dry and patiently waiting.

I'm not making excuses for the Junta. That's your perception which you are entitled too.

Thailand wasn't and never has been progressing towards a democracy. The Shins made no movement towards real democracy. Remember they opposed electing provincial governors as they favored installing their own people. They were on more than one occasion attempting to neuter checks and balances through placing their own people in key positions, cutting the budgets of independent agencies, and intimidating any who spoke out. Hardly a model of democracy unless you believe the former East European people's democracies really were democratic.

I don't ignore facts at all. I ignore the red version of facts and lies, coupled with re-writes of history. All Thaksin governments have been caught out lying, cheating, breaking laws and his family's vast wealth has become even more vast during the period in question. Go figure. Magna Carta certainly did nothing about recognizing freedom of thought or expression for the masses, the majority of the population. Now those precious won freedoms, that took hundreds of years and much sacrifice are being eroded under the excuse of terrorism, state security and protection. The UK government seeks more and more control and personal intrusion - who do you think really controls them - the electorate?

Of course the Junta, the military, the rich hiso elite mega wealthy few that own and control most don't want change. They live a wonderful life and want to see that continue for future generations. Like in many other Asian countries. Do you find that surprising? Do some research on the wealth and lineage of Britain's leading politicians over the last 100 years and you might get some more surprises.

The Thai people need real leaders determined to drive the changes necessary to benefit all. But the rich and powerful, and that includes the self serving Shinawattra family clan, are going to do all they can to stop it.

How many "ordinary folk" do you discuss this with? Do they all believe Thaksin the Innocent is their true savior? Most I speak with, across social strata, think not. They've seen through his scams and illusions. What is a little worrying is that many simply believe no real change is possible. Until that attitude changes, and people start taking responsibility for driving that change, then they are right, nothing will change. Just the constant game of musical chairs among the elite.

[Ricardo]

You mean his conviction under a junta installed government? But your point is taken, in your mind only coup leaders deserve amnesty.

Now please tell us how this coup, unlike all the past coups, will help Thailand improve? Unless you define "improve" as protecting the country for democracy.

"his conviction under a junta installed government ?"

Just to point out that it was an elected PPP-led coalition-government in power, when Thaksin's conviction took place and he was permitted to leave to watch the Beijing-Olympics, so not a "junta installed government" at all.

One must try to give the credit where it's due !

Edited February 16, 2015 by Ricardo

[Baerboxer]

Do you seriously believe Thaksin would give the poor seats at his table?

Maybe the odd useful self appointed red shirt leader. But real reform ? Only if it made his position stronger or lined his clan's pockets.

Hopefully the poor have now woken up to him, his clan as well.

Sadly, no real leaders are springing up to champion the poor.

Thaksin of course used populist policies for his own greedy gains, but what he did (engaging the poor, not being condesending and sneering at them as previous BKK elitists politicians had done) has changed Thailand forever. I hope the poor break away from the red shirt movement and people like Charlem who are so hypocritical with his pink Bentley talking about being a champion of the poor, and protest peacefully at the years of injustice suffered from non caring BKK elites.

Coups haven't fixed anything before. People say oh but THIS one is different, I hope it is in terms of being the LAST one. The military can't go on interfering in politics forever.

We agree there. The Shins, Chalerm, Plod, and others all treated the people with contempt with their lies. Chalerm's mansion is something to behold. He fled to Denmark to escape his unusual wealth inquiry. Red shirt leaders all seem to have acquired wealth somehow too. I guess that's a sword being held over their heads.

Coups won't fix anything - simply a tool to remove some people or persons and replace them with authoritarian rule aimed at maintaining the previous status quo. Real reforms - we shall see, but don't hold your breath,

[Baerboxer]

Only problem here mate is that the previous coups occurred in a totally different environment than the one faced today. Smart phones, social media and the internet are ubiquitous. The truth cannot be hidden, the people cannot be kept in the dark and isolated from each other whilst being force fed state propaganda. Short of confiscating all iPhones and shutting down Line - this coup will fail in achieving its goal of ensuring Thai society is wound back and then permanently stuck in the 1950's. The coup is the only thing stopping Thailand from improving.

That is exactly why the current coup is going to improve Thailand. It has learned from previous coup's. You hit the nail right on the head.

Agree that social media scares most governments. But please explain how bringing back a criminal fugitive, whitewashing his conviction, sentence, bail jumping offense, and the 15 serious outstanding charges in court waiting his return would have helped Thailand improve?

You mean his conviction under a junta installed government? But your point is taken, in your mind only coup leaders deserve amnesty.

Now please tell us how this coup, unlike all the past coups, will help Thailand improve? Unless you define "improve" as protecting the country for democracy.

He was convicted when one of his political parties were in power. He miscalculated that he could always get away with breaking rules and if caught could square it off with pastry boxes, claims of honest mistakes or giving things back. He was wrong and ran for it.

The other 15 serious charges against him are waiting his return, He could have come back any time and fought those while baby sister was in office. But getting a whitewash total amnesty bill which would clear him of everything ever seemed an easier option. Saves any awkward questions or someone actually wanting the truth.

[Fat Haggis]

Baerboxer why do you never question the wealth if the ruling military junta? Do you seriously think that out of the whole of the country, they were the only ones who "invested wisely" ?

[brewsterbudgen]

Thaksin was a corrupt, self-serving politician. How unusual! No excuse for a coup or suspending free speech. Rather sad to see so many trying to do so.

[lildragon]

Thaksin was a corrupt, self-serving politician. How unusual! No excuse for a coup or suspending free speech. Rather sad to see so many trying to do so.

And supporting such measures!

[tbthailand]

Nope, the plan was hatched in late 2010 and Sutherp was tasked with the job outside while the military plot inside. Not hard to see as the modus operandi was similar to the 2005 Sonthi lead demonstrations leading to the the coup. In 2009 the judiciary did their part for their version of the coup. This is no return to democracy but just the establishment clinging on to power by brute force.

probably, but I mean that I was informed in july 2013 that the decision was made to start the uprising within a few months and guerilla tactics used if necessary.

that would hardly be a surprise. The timing was much more important than the excuse - in this case an amnesty bill.

[Rancid]

Thailand needs some training from the US police that busted up the anti Wall St protests.

The land of the free knows a thing or two about how to crush dissent.

[Jonmarleesco]

'Thailand's decade-long political conflict broadly pits a Bangkok-based middle class and royalist elite ... against urban working-class voters and farmers from the country's north ...' AFP's reporter's analysis - simplistic as ever.