'Democratic culture is being eroded'

[Lite Beer]

MARTIAL LAW
'Democratic culture is being eroded'
PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK
THE SUNDAY NATION

BANGKOK: -- Opponents of martial law say it also hits the economy

CONTINUED long-term imposition of martial law will further corrode democratic culture and negatively affect the economy, opponents of the law have warned, nearly nine months after it was imposed just before the coup on May 22 last year.

Opponents now fear that martial law could be left in effect for another year or longer, including on the promised election-day early next year, despite calls from the United States and the European Union for the National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO) to lift it.

"It's unpredictable under martial law how many more people would be arrested and detained [under the law]. It will affect political parties wanting to carry out electoral campaigns. Will all the parties feel equally at ease campaigning under martial law?" Thammasat University political scientist Pongkwan Sawasdipakdi asked.

Pongkwan said the economy would be affected for the long-term as well as business operators cannot be certain if autocratic power will be used in a way that would negatively affect their business in the future or not.

Red Sunday Group leader Sombat Boonngam-anong, who was arrested for leading a movement to oppose the NCPO and now faces charges at the military court, agreed that indefinite imposition of martial law would take a toll on the economy.

Sombat said he's deeply concerned about the long-term negative impact on democratic culture, including freedom of expression and freedom of assembly, among academics, the media and ordinary citizens.

"Silence under martial law is not security," said Sombat, adding that it's also a matter of national pride that Thai citizens should not be subjected to a repressive law that in the end affects the standing of the Kingdom in the eyes of the international community.

Human Rights lawyer Anon Nampha said with no end in sight for martial law, many public seminars would continue to be restricted as the military requires that organisers submit request for approval before holding public talks on politics and some have been stopped by the NCPO in recent months.

Anon said he was also concerned about the rise of the number of civilians who will be detained and taken to the military court under martial law and the fact defendants have no right to appeal under military court system.

Some 20 civilians are now facing the military court, said Anon, and the number could significantly rise the longer the special law is imposed.

Both Anon and Sombat believe polls that suggest that many Thais support the continuation of martial law are not reliable. They said polls conducted under martial law were essentially skewed and people may not feel comfortable to express their true political opinions.

"The pollsters may have become a political tool [for the continued imposition of martial law]," said Sombat.

He said many people may not even be aware the law negatively affects them, albeit indirectly, such as the effects on the economy.

For Anon, he said he didn't care how many people may back the law as he believes it will cause more problems in the end.

As for Pongkwan, the fact more arrests are occurring under martial law suggests that even under martial law, the country has not returned to normalcy.

"It shows that the government doesn't feel secure," Pongkwan concluded.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Democratic-culture-is-being-eroded-30254115.html

-- The Nation 2015-02-15

[issanaus]

Selective amnesia - look at the headlines from a year ago.

[tullynagardy]

Good article that hits the nail on the head.

"The pollsters may have become a political tool [for the continued imposition of martial law],"

The irony of using dodgy polls to legitimise the regime, whilst simultaneously prohibiting a country wide poll, seems to be lost on everyone but the junta.

[NongKhaiKid]

Are there any figures available for the amount of people summonsed / detained for AA or, for obvious reasons, is that a state secret ?

[aimbc]

I find the article heading humorous. I think democracy eroded along time ago and that is why the military was able to took over.

The article is hardly any kind of an analysis but more of a generalization about any situation. Sure it will affect something in the long term negatively, but it will affect other things in a positive way. Depending which business you are in. So we have to weigh the out come. I don't know what other junta have this much autonomy to the people.

The only thing that I see affected are the very people who created this mess and caused the military to take over, The politicians.

[Robby nz]

Selective amnesia - look at the headlines from a year ago.

The headlines from this time last year were mostly about one of the most corrupt politicians in Thai history marching around Bangkok to "fight corruption."

They were then (like now) often pointing to the minority of the population dictating the majority, as the PDRC thugs brought down democracy through terror.

Finally back then (as now) the biggest proponents on TV of this were pensioners living in issan, married to former sex workers. Seems little has changed.

Thaksin wasn't marching around BKK he is far to gutless to come back to the country to face the criminal charges against him.

You seem to have got yourself a little mixed up, the thugs were the ones who were shooting and firing grenades at the protesters on a nightly and sometimes daily basis.

Pity that you have to liken all posters on here to yourself, but then I suppose that's all you understand and where you get your red bias from.

[Robby nz]

I find the article heading humorous. I think democracy eroded along time ago and that is why the military was able to took over.

The article is hardly any kind of an analysis but more of a generalization about any situation. Sure it will affect something in the long term negatively, but it will affect other things in a positive way. Depending which business you are in. So we have to weigh the out come. I don't know what other junta have this much autonomy to the people.

The only thing that I see affected are the very people who created this mess and caused the military to take over, The politicians.

Indeed, I don't see anyone anywhere I go that is affected by martial law, but then I don't associate with politicians or trouble makers.

The OP says there are 20 people detained......Out of 65 million.

While the other 64.9999, whatever million go about their normal business.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I find the article heading humorous. I think democracy eroded along time ago and that is why the military was able to took over.

The article is hardly any kind of an analysis but more of a generalization about any situation. Sure it will affect something in the long term negatively, but it will affect other things in a positive way. Depending which business you are in. So we have to weigh the out come. I don't know what other junta have this much autonomy to the people.

The only thing that I see affected are the very people who created this mess and caused the military to take over, The politicians.

Indeed, I don't see anyone anywhere I go that is affected by martial law, but then I don't associate with politicians or trouble makers.

The OP says there are 20 people detained......Out of 65 million.

While the other 64.9999, whatever million go about their normal business.

20 , 200, 2000, Its still people being detained without trial for what they believe in.

[uppo]

Selective amnesia - look at the headlines from a year ago.

Indeed. Unsurprising that Red Shirt Sympathizer Pongkwan, Red Shirt Leader Sombat, and Red Shirt Lawyer Anon are the ones with selective amnesia.

[tonray]

Good article that hits the nail on the head.

"The pollsters may have become a political tool [for the continued imposition of martial law],"

The irony of using dodgy polls to legitimise the regime, whilst simultaneously prohibiting a country wide poll, seems to be lost on everyone but the junta.

The republicans and democrats in the US have been using those tricks for years...nothing new here...it's called selective transmission of information.

[binjalin]

I find the article heading humorous. I think democracy eroded along time ago and that is why the military was able to took over.

The article is hardly any kind of an analysis but more of a generalization about any situation. Sure it will affect something in the long term negatively, but it will affect other things in a positive way. Depending which business you are in. So we have to weigh the out come. I don't know what other junta have this much autonomy to the people.

The only thing that I see affected are the very people who created this mess and caused the military to take over, The politicians.

Indeed, I don't see anyone anywhere I go that is affected by martial law, but then I don't associate with politicians or trouble makers.

The OP says there are 20 people detained......Out of 65 million.

While the other 64.9999, whatever million go about their normal business.

and 64.999999999999 cannot vote .000000000000000001 are 'given' their posts by the Junta but you are not a fan of democracy as it's not 'your country' Thais I know are downcast and 'waiting' because they ALL know this is about something we cannot discuss here

Edited February 15, 2015 by binjalin

[BSJ]

I don't see the point of 'going on about it'. I am assuming the vast majority on TVF are ex-pats like myself so we have no dog in the hunt. And we who are from Western countries were democracy has cast it's shadow for decades or longer see democracy differently to Thai's and other Asian's.

Democracy or the lack of it means different things to different people. But when 99.999% of the population are not effected, why worry.

[shirtless]

The west is no longer a democracy anyway . we have been deceived in a real democracy everyone is equal this is no longer is the case in western countries .

[sweatalot]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I find the article heading humorous. I think democracy eroded along time ago and that is why the military was able to took over.

The article is hardly any kind of an analysis but more of a generalization about any situation. Sure it will affect something in the long term negatively, but it will affect other things in a positive way. Depending which business you are in. So we have to weigh the out come. I don't know what other junta have this much autonomy to the people.

The only thing that I see affected are the very people who created this mess and caused the military to take over, The politicians.

Indeed, I don't see anyone anywhere I go that is affected by martial law, but then I don't associate with politicians or trouble makers.

The OP says there are 20 people detained......Out of 65 million.

While the other 64.9999, whatever million go about their normal business.

20 , 200, 2000, Its still people being detained without trial for what they believe in.

I don't think they are detained for what they believe in. They are detained to prevent them from spreading harm to the country.

And regarding what they believe in ...

may be it could be what they are paid for ...

or if they are really believing some things

then they lack intelligence and common sense - or they are just evil?

[sweatalot]

I find the article heading humorous. I think democracy eroded along time ago and that is why the military was able to took over.

The article is hardly any kind of an analysis but more of a generalization about any situation. Sure it will affect something in the long term negatively, but it will affect other things in a positive way. Depending which business you are in. So we have to weigh the out come. I don't know what other junta have this much autonomy to the people.

The only thing that I see affected are the very people who created this mess and caused the military to take over, The politicians.

Indeed, I don't see anyone anywhere I go that is affected by martial law, but then I don't associate with politicians or trouble makers.

The OP says there are 20 people detained......Out of 65 million.

While the other 64.9999, whatever million go about their normal business.

and 64.999999999999 cannot vote .000000000000000001 are 'given' their posts by the Junta but you are not a fan of democracy as it's not 'your country' Thais I know are downcast and 'waiting' because they ALL know this is about something we cannot discuss here

What is democracy?

For sure it is not a bunch of brainwashed sheeples being abused to fulfill the will of a greedy family clan

and being helped as well as controlled by a violent gang abusing the word democracy in their name

Edited February 15, 2015 by sweatalot

[binjalin]

I find the article heading humorous. I think democracy eroded along time ago and that is why the military was able to took over.

The article is hardly any kind of an analysis but more of a generalization about any situation. Sure it will affect something in the long term negatively, but it will affect other things in a positive way. Depending which business you are in. So we have to weigh the out come. I don't know what other junta have this much autonomy to the people.

The only thing that I see affected are the very people who created this mess and caused the military to take over, The politicians.

Indeed, I don't see anyone anywhere I go that is affected by martial law, but then I don't associate with politicians or trouble makers.

The OP says there are 20 people detained......Out of 65 million.

While the other 64.9999, whatever million go about their normal business.

and 64.999999999999 cannot vote .000000000000000001 are 'given' their posts by the Junta but you are not a fan of democracy as it's not 'your country' Thais I know are downcast and 'waiting' because they ALL know this is about something we cannot discuss here

What is democracy?

For sure it is not a bunch of brainwashed sheeples being abused to fulfill the will of a greedy family clan

and being helped as well as controlled by a violent gang abusing the word democracy in their name

you can't honestly believe this? you really have fallen for the Junta spin, Goebbels would have loved it

'we are getting rid of democracy for your own good because you keep voting the wrong way'

Edited February 15, 2015 by binjalin

[ubonjoe]

A post that could be a veiled comment about the royal family has been removed.

Forum rule.

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By law, the Thai Royal Family are above politics. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family.*
Discussion of the Lese Majeste law or Lese Majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family.

To breach these rules may result in immediate ban.

Linking to external sites which break these rules will be treated as if you yourself posted them."

[2fishin2]

I find the article heading humorous. I think democracy eroded along time ago and that is why the military was able to took over.

The article is hardly any kind of an analysis but more of a generalization about any situation. Sure it will affect something in the long term negatively, but it will affect other things in a positive way. Depending which business you are in. So we have to weigh the out come. I don't know what other junta have this much autonomy to the people.

The only thing that I see affected are the very people who created this mess and caused the military to take over, The politicians.

Indeed, I don't see anyone anywhere I go that is affected by martial law, but then I don't associate with politicians or trouble makers.

The OP says there are 20 people detained......Out of 65 million.

While the other 64.9999, whatever million go about their normal business.

and 64.999999999999 cannot vote .000000000000000001 are 'given' their posts by the Junta but you are not a fan of democracy as it's not 'your country' Thais I know are downcast and 'waiting' because they ALL know this is about something we cannot discuss here

What is democracy?

For sure it is not a bunch of brainwashed sheeples being abused to fulfill the will of a greedy family clan

and being helped as well as controlled by a violent gang abusing the word democracy in their name

Since someone assumed my post was about whatever they wanted here it is again.

"Brainwashed sheeples" = Ordinary Thai citizen.

"Greed family clan" = The sick and decrepit BKK rich, elite families that actually own and run the country

"Violent gang" = The military

This guy is describing he current state of affairs to a Tee. Thanks for making the anti-junta case for us all.

And for the record, maybe next time dont assume what a person is talking about.

[djjamie]

Indeed, I don't see anyone anywhere I go that is affected by martial law, but then I don't associate with politicians or trouble makers.

The OP says there are 20 people detained......Out of 65 million.

While the other 64.9999, whatever million go about their normal business.

and 64.999999999999 cannot vote .000000000000000001 are 'given' their posts by the Junta but you are not a fan of democracy as it's not 'your country' Thais I know are downcast and 'waiting' because they ALL know this is about something we cannot discuss here

What is democracy?

For sure it is not a bunch of brainwashed sheeples being abused to fulfill the will of a greedy family clan

and being helped as well as controlled by a violent gang abusing the word democracy in their name

you can't honestly believe this? you really have fallen for the Junta spin, Goebbels would have loved it

'we are getting rid of democracy for your own good because you keep voting the wrong way'

You can't honestly believe this. Amnesty bill that the majority didn't want, but was voted through by 310 - 0 for the benefit of one unelected accused mass murderer, accused terrorist and convicted criminal fugitive. Even the Junta votes were not this one sided and they never purported to be democratic.…Sure, yingluck was elected, but it don't make this scenario right.

To get rid of democracy you must have had it in the first place and by golly gee 1/15th democratic does not count.

It has been shown by the PTP that democracy ceased post ballot box. That is where democracy should begin.

A supporter base was being manipulated by unsustainable unaffordable policies to ensure electoral victory. A dictatorship is appealing to a very narrow supporter base in this case, rice farmers. A democracy is an ability to appeal to a broad section of the population and not just rice farmers.

The majority of Thai's realize this and to make it a reality, reform is needed before the next election lest in 10 to 20 years time that narrow voter base is manipulated again and we go back to square one. I cannot speak for the Thai's and I don't purport to, but if the PTP win after the reform my wife who is a supporter of all the principles of democracy would herald the win a success of democracy knowing full well there will be no abuse of power, no blatant corruption, no ramming through amnesties against the will of the majority and no telling voters "you will get what you want when you vote for us" and as is indicated by the brutal repression of peaceful protesters that is more akin to Iraq than Thailand where the UDD supporters laugh and cheer when they realize the opposition have been killed and maimed. That's not the democracy I am used to.

I look forward to a true real democracy. The one that is defined in the dictionary. Not the principle called election. People always harp on about elections as if that is it. Start finish and middle of democracy. Yet they stay silent on the abuses that the PTP perpetuated when they held power. Whether it is ignoring the fact or ignorance is still out with the jury, but suffice to say only one principle is only ever repeated here. One. Democracy is more than one.

Bizzaro world is when millions come out to protest. The biggest protests in Thai history and they are dismissed as the minority. When 3 students hold up 3 fingers in front of Prayuth they are the overwhelming majority.

​Lets have an election you may say? Why…If they did and the PTP didn't win you have already got the narrative lined up that the Junta have rigged the polls or some other wonderful excuse to disrespect the majority.

Edited February 15, 2015 by djjamie

[robblok]

I don't see the point of 'going on about it'. I am assuming the vast majority on TVF are ex-pats like myself so we have no dog in the hunt. And we who are from Western countries were democracy has cast it's shadow for decades or longer see democracy differently to Thai's and other Asian's.

Democracy or the lack of it means different things to different people. But when 99.999% of the population are not effected, why worry.

Its always funny to see people of the old reginme calling it democratic.. it certainly was not.. it had an armed wing of terrorist. It constantly broke the rules of true democracies. I am ok with how it is now this bunch of rules is less worse as the previous ones. These are a bit less corrupt.

[Chris Lawrence]

Bangkok is a feudal system. It is running Thailand.

[robblok]

Bangkok is a feudal system. It is running Thailand.

No worse then the shin dictatorship.

[kjun12]

Selective amnesia - look at the headlines from a year ago.

Indeed. Unsurprising that Red Shirt Sympathizer Pongkwan, Red Shirt Leader Sombat, and Red Shirt Lawyer Anon are the ones with selective amnesia.

You have your opinion and I have mine and we do NOT agree.

[MrPerfect]

I find the article heading humorous. I think democracy eroded along time ago and that is why the military was able to took over.

The article is hardly any kind of an analysis but more of a generalization about any situation. Sure it will affect something in the long term negatively, but it will affect other things in a positive way. Depending which business you are in. So we have to weigh the out come. I don't know what other junta have this much autonomy to the people.

The only thing that I see affected are the very people who created this mess and caused the military to take over, The politicians.

Indeed, I don't see anyone anywhere I go that is affected by martial law, but then I don't associate with politicians or trouble makers.

The OP says there are 20 people detained......Out of 65 million.

While the other 64.9999, whatever million go about their normal business.

and 64.999999999999 cannot vote .000000000000000001 are 'given' their posts by the Junta but you are not a fan of democracy as it's not 'your country' Thais I know are downcast and 'waiting' because they ALL know this is about something we cannot discuss here

What is democracy?

For sure it is not a bunch of brainwashed sheeples being abused to fulfill the will of a greedy family clan

and being helped as well as controlled by a violent gang abusing the word democracy in their name

Democracy is also not a brainwashed unelected ultra minority overthrowing elected governments and installing a military junta. Democracy starts at the ballot box, without elections you most definitely do not have a democracy, with elections at least you're on the right path.

[casualbiker]

Good article that hits the nail on the head.

"The pollsters may have become a political tool [for the continued imposition of martial law],"

The irony of using dodgy polls to legitimise the regime, whilst simultaneously prohibiting a country wide poll, seems to be lost on everyone but the junta.

Thaksin's governments routinely used polls in the same way.. it's a common political tool also used around the world .. take ALL with a pinch of salt!

[casualbiker]

I find the article heading humorous. I think democracy eroded along time ago and that is why the military was able to took over.

The article is hardly any kind of an analysis but more of a generalization about any situation. Sure it will affect something in the long term negatively, but it will affect other things in a positive way. Depending which business you are in. So we have to weigh the out come. I don't know what other junta have this much autonomy to the people.

The only thing that I see affected are the very people who created this mess and caused the military to take over, The politicians.

Indeed, I don't see anyone anywhere I go that is affected by martial law, but then I don't associate with politicians or trouble makers.

The OP says there are 20 people detained......Out of 65 million.

While the other 64.9999, whatever million go about their normal business.

and 64.999999999999 cannot vote .000000000000000001 are 'given' their posts by the Junta but you are not a fan of democracy as it's not 'your country' Thais I know are downcast and 'waiting' because they ALL know this is about something we cannot discuss here

What is democracy?

For sure it is not a bunch of brainwashed sheeples being abused to fulfill the will of a greedy family clan

and being helped as well as controlled by a violent gang abusing the word democracy in their name

Since someone assumed my post was about whatever they wanted here it is again.

"Brainwashed sheeples" = Ordinary Thai citizen.

"Greed family clan" = The sick and decrepit BKK rich, elite families that actually own and run the country

"Violent gang" = The military

This guy is describing he current state of affairs to a Tee. Thanks for making the anti-junta case for us all.

And for the record, maybe next time dont assume what a person is talking about.

Any and all "clans " are greedy to keep power and money. This includes the new red shirt ones, clinging onto power and of course the Thaksin political era clans. The Bkk elite families should be reigned in but they generally are extremely large employers.

As for brain washed sheeples. ..umm many Thais I know are fully aware of the problems, many consider that the current situation is the better of evils, but they absolutely do want things to move forward (many red's just want the money tree to come back)

Violent gang = army. Really! two bloodless coups in 10 years. Against armed unrest to topple the legal Democrats government of elected Mp's. (The Democrats government of Abhisit were elected Mp's and Abhisit was voted in the same way as every other PM)

[max72]

I don't see the point of 'going on about it'. I am assuming the vast majority on TVF are ex-pats like myself so we have no dog in the hunt. And we who are from Western countries were democracy has cast it's shadow for decades or longer see democracy differently to Thai's and other Asian's.

Democracy or the lack of it means different things to different people. But when 99.999% of the population are not effected, why worry.

Its always funny to see people of the old reginme calling it democratic.. it certainly was not.. it had an armed wing of terrorist. It constantly broke the rules of true democracies. I am ok with how it is now this bunch of rules is less worse as the previous ones. These are a bit less corrupt.

You are lying. Thaksin govt. by BY FAR THE LEAST corrupt in the history of Thailand, according to Transparency International.

I believe you feel ok now, when Thais are oppressed, tortured and killed this gives lots of happiness to some farangs who want to exploit the misery and desperation of Thailand to live cheap and feel rich and powerful in a country of misery and suffering.

[Jimbolai]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Good article that hits the nail on the head.

"The pollsters may have become a political tool [for the continued imposition of martial law],"

The irony of using dodgy polls to legitimise the regime, whilst simultaneously prohibiting a country wide poll, seems to be lost on everyone but the junta.

CONTINUED long-term imposition of martial law will further corrode democratic culture???? What???? democratic culture???? under a dictatorship????? How is that working out?

Call it whatever we must but pleeeese do not call it democratic.

[sweatalot]

Since someone assumed my post was about whatever they wanted here it is again.

"Brainwashed sheeples" = Ordinary Thai citizen.

"Greed family clan" = The sick and decrepit BKK rich, elite families that actually own and run the country

"Violent gang" = The military

This guy is describing he current state of affairs to a Tee. Thanks for making the anti-junta case for us all.

And for the record, maybe next time dont assume what a person is talking about.

You are so wrong - brainwashed?

Ok, I don't want to make this personal. I choose to interpret you have a flourishing fantasy to interpret things the opposite from what they are.

Anyway it doesn't make them true.

Edited February 15, 2015 by sweatalot

[heybruce]

You can't honestly believe this. Amnesty bill that the majority didn't want, but was voted through by 310 - 0 for the benefit of one unelected accused mass murderer, accused terrorist and convicted criminal fugitive. Even the Junta votes were not this one sided and they never purported to be democratic.…Sure, yingluck was elected, but it don't make this scenario right.

To get rid of democracy you must have had it in the first place and by golly gee 1/15th democratic does not count.

It has been shown by the PTP that democracy ceased post ballot box. That is where democracy should begin.

A supporter base was being manipulated by unsustainable unaffordable policies to ensure electoral victory. A dictatorship is appealing to a very narrow supporter base in this case, rice farmers. A democracy is an ability to appeal to a broad section of the population and not just rice farmers.

The majority of Thai's realize this and to make it a reality, reform is needed before the next election lest in 10 to 20 years time that narrow voter base is manipulated again and we go back to square one. I cannot speak for the Thai's and I don't purport to, but if the PTP win after the reform my wife who is a supporter of all the principles of democracy would herald the win a success of democracy knowing full well there will be no abuse of power, no blatant corruption, no ramming through amnesties against the will of the majority and no telling voters "you will get what you want when you vote for us" and as is indicated by the brutal repression of peaceful protesters that is more akin to Iraq than Thailand where the UDD supporters laugh and cheer when they realize the opposition have been killed and maimed. That's not the democracy I am used to.

I look forward to a true real democracy. The one that is defined in the dictionary. Not the principle called election. People always harp on about elections as if that is it. Start finish and middle of democracy. Yet they stay silent on the abuses that the PTP perpetuated when they held power. Whether it is ignoring the fact or ignorance is still out with the jury, but suffice to say only one principle is only ever repeated here. One. Democracy is more than one.

Bizzaro world is when millions come out to protest. The biggest protests in Thai history and they are dismissed as the minority. When 3 students hold up 3 fingers in front of Prayuth they are the overwhelming majority.

​Lets have an election you may say? Why…If they did and the PTP didn't win you have already got the narrative lined up that the Junta have rigged the polls or some other wonderful excuse to disrespect the majority.

Democracy was flawed before the coup, it is non-existent now, and you have nothing more than foolish wishful thinking to support your assumption that the military will bring about a "true real democracy"

If the author of the OP is correct and martial law will be maintained during the next election, with its censorhip and bans on political gatherings and criticism of the junta, will you consider it a valid election?