The Anti-padi Thread

[Chantal]

No, to the post directly above:

To be fair, according to PADI, you can't dive after six month interval without a refresher course, but I bet you can negotiate that down with many smaller shops here.

Sorry Plus this is not really the case. PADI recommends it but does not enforce it.

[Plus]

So they don't care.

Ultimately it's the diver himself who is responsible for his training. People, however, are used to rely on companies that provide service for them.

[Chantal]

When I took my Open water they signed up ALL other class members for Advanced right away - just three more days on the island, they loved it.

When I made my OW, there was one company who told they can do the OW in 2 days, 2 more for the AOW.

Everything together in 4 days. I am still checking if I can find the old email......

It was after I wanted to pay less they offered to make it faster....

Open Water Course over 2 days? Wow this is a breaking of the PADI standards!

I think if well trained it must be possible to make these 4 dives on 1 day. But I don't know how much you remember on such a high speed course.

PADI standards insist that the 4 Open Water dives are not allowed to be conducted in 1 day. They must be conducted over 2 days. That is 2 Open Water dives on each day.

[h90]

When I took my Open water they signed up ALL other class members for Advanced right away - just three more days on the island, they loved it.

When I made my OW, there was one company who told they can do the OW in 2 days, 2 more for the AOW.

Everything together in 4 days. I am still checking if I can find the old email......

It was after I wanted to pay less they offered to make it faster....

Open Water Course over 2 days? Wow this is a breaking of the PADI standards!

I think if well trained it must be possible to make these 4 dives on 1 day. But I don't know how much you remember on such a high speed course.

PADI standards insist that the 4 Open Water dives are not allowed to be conducted in 1 day. They must be conducted over 2 days. That is 2 Open Water dives on each day.

well you could start with the review of the book very early, than make the pool and after that 2 OW dives one 1 day and 2 on the second day.

Don't take that serious.....

Meant as joke....

[phibunmike]

I agree with other posters that one has to take responsibility, once qualified, but beginners do not know how to check.

I have met PADI instructors who have only done a couple of hundred dives - I don't see how they can possibly be considered experienced enough to deal with situations that might arise whilst students are under their care.

After training, I don't want anyone telling me what to do or what not to do. I hate the thing in Oz where a DM checks your time and air - bloody cheek !

If I want to dive deep, or solo, I will - but that is after training, so I undertsand the risks and can make my own decisions.

IMHO

[britmaveric]

No, to the post directly above:

To be fair, according to PADI, you can't dive after six month interval without a refresher course, but I bet you can negotiate that down with many smaller shops here.

Sorry Plus this is not really the case. PADI recommends it but does not enforce it.

I concur I've dived after 6mo no problems - Padi does recommend refresher course, but they certainly do not enforce it. I normally go less than 18m first dive after a long layoff to get my diving legs back - mind you always taking courses so normally instructor with me at any rate.

[bazmlb]

After training, I don't want anyone telling me what to do or what not to do. I hate the thing in Oz where a DM checks your time and air - bloody cheek !

IMHO

This is kind of good, it does mean they can account for all the people on the boat are back on board.

I have been on a well run boat here that does the same, in Australia it could also be for Insurance liability issues.

[percy2]

I agree with other posters that one has to take responsibility, once qualified, but beginners do not know how to check.

I have met PADI instructors who have only done a couple of hundred dives - I don't see how they can possibly be considered experienced enough to deal with situations that might arise whilst students are under their care.

After training, I don't want anyone telling me what to do or what not to do. I hate the thing in Oz where a DM checks your time and air - bloody cheek !

If I want to dive deep, or solo, I will - but that is after training, so I undertsand the risks and can make my own decisions.

IMHO

I agree with everything you said.

I also think its a little misleading when an instructor claims several hundred or thousand dives when the majority have been training dives , not real diving. Its amazing how many intstructors get in trouble when the conditions deteriorate a little.

As for Chantal saying that th AOW is just to let people learn new skills , can't you also dive deeper once AOW. Then again you can dive dive even deeper once youv'e done your deep diver course (Put Another Dollar In)

Even when there are other divers in the water I only dive solo nowadays.

Skippy doesn't seem all bad

Cheers

[Maizefarmer]

I think the jury is still out on wether or not PADi is a good system.

It has some good points & it has some bad.

There is no question about the methodolgy PADI uses in teaching - if you know anything about educational psychology you will know that the system its self is excellent. That is an indisputable fact. Where it starts to unravel , and this is my contention with PADI, is that it has become to diving what Macdonalds has become to burgers.

Yes it is consistant - but the standard of that consistancy is set too low i.e. a PADI diver's real life ability can never be assessed from their qualification. i.e. dont think that because a person has a PADI Recue Diver qualification that they are a capable diver - its no garuntee!

But that is not the problem as far as PADI diving or any other type of diving goes in Thailand.

The problem lies in the lack of legal framework (from a Thai employement perspective) to accomodate dive instructors, and as a consequence most instructors are a tranisient group (i.e. here today - gone tomorrow).

PADI, more so than any other commercially motivated "educational" dive body (and make no mistake about it, PADI is a great one for marketing scuba diving to the masses against an educational background) has done next to nothing to for its instructors when it comes to arguing for work permitts for them - whether it be Thailand or anywhere else, but Thailand is a region in which dive instructors are often targeted because they have no WP.

What obligation does PADI have to address this side of things? Well, I suppose it can be argued none, but for an organisation that is so active when it comes to sponsoring exercises that it can use to blow its trumpet with, it seems somewhat ironic (almost hypocritical) that it shrug sits shoulders when it comes to ensuring that those who are given the responsibility for teaching its courses, are operating not only within its framework (another thing PADI makes a noise about), but also within the country's employment law(s) framework.

Perhaps PADI can make a formal statement on the issue. What would it have to say: at the least it would have to throw the ball back into the dive school(s) court, which would mean that the dive schools would have to get WP's for all instructors, and if that regulation had any "meat on the bone", PADI would also have to stipulate that certifications could only be processed from dive schools/instructors who have WP's for Thailand on record. Whooops! - a serious blow to PADI's income - and be under no illusion about just how important income is to PADI. At the end of the day it is a profit driven organisation.

For an organisation that markets its self as the dive industry's leader, PADI does little at regional level (except in the USA) to enforce/ensure regional employment law. The same argument must apply to other certification agencies - but PADI has to stand out in this regard, just as much as it likes to stand out as the market leader in other regards.

Its time PADI sat down with TAT and other relivant Thai agencies and came to some agreement.

Having critised PADI for not doing anything near what they can do, its not as if they are totally to blame. The TAT (which is the main interface between Thai dive companies and the Thai authorites) has also down little to help. Granted, it needs to encourage and protect employment for local qualified instructors, but it could easily introduce a seasonal quota system (or some similar policy) framework, which facilitates the employemtns of young dive instructors of all nationalities.

The argument is there - communication is important both froma safety as well as business perspective, and argue as much as we will about the pros' & cons, the fact is Russian speaking dive clients/students are going to, or who want to dive with Russian speaking guides and instructors - should be allowed to do easily.

TAT should not percieve this negatively, after all these people are also spending money in other sectors of the tourism industry (e.g. resturants and accomodation), and I have no doubt that were it not for the fact that foreigners do work as dive instructors and guides, a significant sector of the tourist economy would feel more than a financial & employment "pinch".

In summary the problem with PADI is that its qualifications are a poor indicator of individual diver ability when compared with the standards set by other agencies. It's very much about as getting as many people through as possible - for a profit.

And secondly, for an organisation that can exercise seriosu clout when it comes to enforcement of employment regulations at a regional level (for the benefit of all), it has deliberately chosen not to take a stance.

Thats my take on the subject.

The above comments are mean't to encourage debate and discussion and please feel free to reply or critisize what I have said - could be some interesting replies to this.

Tim

[Chantal]

I agree with other posters that one has to take responsibility, once qualified, but beginners do not know how to check.

I have met PADI instructors who have only done a couple of hundred dives - I don't see how they can possibly be considered experienced enough to deal with situations that might arise whilst students are under their care.

After training, I don't want anyone telling me what to do or what not to do. I hate the thing in Oz where a DM checks your time and air - bloody cheek !

If I want to dive deep, or solo, I will - but that is after training, so I undertsand the risks and can make my own decisions.

IMHO

As for Chantal saying that th AOW is just to let people learn new skills , can't you also dive deeper once AOW. Then again you can dive dive even deeper once youv'e done your deep diver course (Put Another Dollar In)

Cheers

Hi I certainly did not say this. Please read my post carefully. Otherwise, yes, as an AOW diver you are allowed to go deeper than an OW diver. But then again many OW divers go deeper than the recommended 18 meters. For example you and others prefer to go solo diving. Well then that is quite simply your choice. You have a diving license just like a driving license therefore you can dive and drive. There are good and bad divers and drivers all over the world no matter who taught them.

Otherwise Put Another Dollar In - I certainly agree!!! It all depends on what you preferences and goals are. Nobody is going to hold a gun against your head and force you to pay for extra diver training. It is your choice whether you decide upon PADI, NAUI, SSI, ACUC, BSAC etc etc etc.

[Chantal]

I think the jury is still out on wether or not PADi is a good system.

It has some good points & it has some bad.

There is no question about the methodolgy PADI uses in teaching - if you know anything about educational psychology you will know that the system its self is excellent. That is an indisputable fact. Where it starts to unravel , and this is my contention with PADI, is that it has become to diving what Macdonalds has become to burgers.

Yes it is consistant - but the standard of that consistancy is set too low i.e. a PADI diver's real life ability can never be assessed from their qualification. i.e. dont think that because a person has a PADI Recue Diver qualification that they are a capable diver - its no garuntee!

But that is not the problem as far as PADI diving or any other type of diving goes in Thailand.

The problem lies in the lack of legal framework (from a Thai employement perspective) to accomodate dive instructors, and as a consequence most instructors are a tranisient group (i.e. here today - gone tomorrow).

PADI, more so than any other commercially motivated "educational" dive body (and make no mistake about it, PADI is a great one for marketing scuba diving to the masses against an educational background) has done next to nothing to for its instructors when it comes to arguing for work permitts for them - whether it be Thailand or anywhere else, but Thailand is a region in which dive instructors are often targeted because they have no WP.

What obligation does PADI have to address this side of things? Well, I suppose it can be argued none, but for an organisation that is so active when it comes to sponsoring exercises that it can use to blow its trumpet with, it seems somewhat ironic (almost hypocritical) that it shrug sits shoulders when it comes to ensuring that those who are given the responsibility for teaching its courses, are operating not only within its framework (another thing PADI makes a noise about), but also within the country's employment law(s) framework.

Perhaps PADI can make a formal statement on the issue. What would it have to say: at the least it would have to throw the ball back into the dive school(s) court, which would mean that the dive schools would have to get WP's for all instructors, and if that regulation had any "meat on the bone", PADI would also have to stipulate that certifications could only be processed from dive schools/instructors who have WP's for Thailand on record. Whooops! - a serious blow to PADI's income - and be under no illusion about just how important income is to PADI. At the end of the day it is a profit driven organisation.

For an organisation that markets its self as the dive industry's leader, PADI does little at regional level (except in the USA) to enforce/ensure regional employment law. The same argument must apply to other certification agencies - but PADI has to stand out in this regard, just as much as it likes to stand out as the market leader in other regards.

Its time PADI sat down with TAT and other relivant Thai agencies and came to some agreement.

Having critised PADI for not doing anything near what they can do, its not as if they are totally to blame. The TAT (which is the main interface between Thai dive companies and the Thai authorites) has also down little to help. Granted, it needs to encourage and protect employment for local qualified instructors, but it could easily introduce a seasonal quota system (or some similar policy) framework, which facilitates the employemtns of young dive instructors of all nationalities.

The argument is there - communication is important both froma safety as well as business perspective, and argue as much as we will about the pros' & cons, the fact is Russian speaking dive clients/students are going to, or who want to dive with Russian speaking guides and instructors - should be allowed to do easily.

TAT should not percieve this negatively, after all these people are also spending money in other sectors of the tourism industry (e.g. resturants and accomodation), and I have no doubt that were it not for the fact that foreigners do work as dive instructors and guides, a significant sector of the tourist economy would feel more than a financial & employment "pinch".

In summary the problem with PADI is that its qualifications are a poor indicator of individual diver ability when compared with the standards set by other agencies. It's very much about as getting as many people through as possible - for a profit.

And secondly, for an organisation that can exercise seriosu clout when it comes to enforcement of employment regulations at a regional level (for the benefit of all), it has deliberately chosen not to take a stance.

Thats my take on the subject.

The above comments are mean't to encourage debate and discussion and please feel free to reply or critisize what I have said - could be some interesting replies to this.

Tim

Well said Tim - you have made some very accurate statements

[percy2]

As for Chantal saying that th AOW is just to let people learn new skills , can't you also dive deeper once AOW. Then again you can dive dive even deeper once youv'e done your deep diver course (Put Another Dollar In)

Cheers

Hi I certainly did not say this. Please read my post carefully. Otherwise, yes, as an AOW diver you are allowed to go deeper than an OW diver. But then again many OW divers go deeper than the recommended 18 meters. For example you and others prefer to go solo diving. Well then that is quite simply your choice. You have a diving license just like a driving license therefore you can dive and drive. There are good and bad divers and drivers all over the world no matter who taught them.

Otherwise Put Another Dollar In - I certainly agree!!! It all depends on what you preferences and goals are. Nobody is going to hold a gun against your head and force you to pay for extra diver training. It is your choice whether you decide upon PADI, NAUI, SSI, ACUC, BSAC etc etc etc.

Chantal maybe I misunderstood your comment.

Actually I don't have a diving liscense. I have several certificates for having completed courses by the various diving associations.

I'm fairly sure that there is no legal requirement for me to hold any of those certificates to go diving in Thailand. You are legally required to hold a driving liscense in order to drive a car or motor bike here.

Tim, very well written and thought out post.

Cheers

[britmaveric]

Well unless you own your own equipment, tank, and air filling service you need a license. Dive Shops won't rent to you without it, least in my experience.

[skippybangkok]

<deleted>...kicked up a hornets nest here.

Well, just seen and heard too many wierd things with PADI new approved advanced divers who needed to be bailed out.

[britmaveric]

<deleted>...kicked up a hornets nest here.

Well, just seen and heard too many wierd things with PADI new approved advanced divers who needed to be bailed out.

Didnt do advanced until 20 or so dives, then wanted to go deeper/hit some wrecks. So in order to do that had to take Advanced. PADI diveshops I used wouldn't let you dive without it. Faire enough - I'd rather do the training and do it right than risk my own neck.

Anyways prob eventually get master diver - been taking courses since Advanced, might as well get certs if I am going to dive anyway. PADI isn't perfect, but I don't think they intend to be - at the end of the day you are ultimately responsible for your own neck as well as your buddy.

[skippybangkok]

<deleted>...kicked up a hornets nest here.

Well, just seen and heard too many wierd things with PADI new approved advanced divers who needed to be bailed out.

Didnt do advanced until 20 or so dives, then wanted to go deeper/hit some wrecks. So in order to do that had to take Advanced. PADI diveshops I used wouldn't let you dive without it. Faire enough - I'd rather do the training and do it right than risk my own neck.

Anyways prob eventually get master diver - been taking courses since Advanced, might as well get certs if I am going to dive anyway. PADI isn't perfect, but I don't think they intend to be - at the end of the day you are ultimately responsible for your own neck as well as your buddy.

Did not do advanced until about 400+, and even then it was virtual black mail rather than a necessity. I actually learnt absolutely Zilch, and had to pay x baht for the freaking piece of plastic.

Some dive operators would not take you to a site cause u were "open water". As I said in a previous thread, had a spat with a Pattaya dive operator cause he would not take me on his trip to the Hardeep ( which at that time I had done about 40+dives on already ) cause I was OW. But he would happily take a 10 dive "certified" advanced diver.

Baffles me!!

Generally only dive solo these days, or if there is a very good guide to help find macro things for photography, very happy to have a "buddy"n (if you can call it that ) along.

[percy2]

Well unless you own your own equipment, tank, and air filling service you need a license. Dive Shops won't rent to you without it, least in my experience.

Brit,

Don't mean to be pedantic (well I guess I am ) but which "license" do you have?

Cheers

[britmaveric]

Open Water/Advanced Open Water/Wreck/Deep - one of these days I'll finish up!

[percy2]

Open Water/Advanced Open Water/Wreck/Deep - one of these days I'll finish up!

I also have those and a couple of others (Nitrox , Rescue , Divemaster , Master diver and maybe another one or two ) that I obtained before I saw the light! Then I started giving my money to other certifying agencies If you don't plan to start teaching diving then ther is no point in taking the DM course. I prefer to dive rather than teach.

Doing the courses can be quite fun (up to the instructor) and some are quite informative , but many are a waste of time(and money). AOW IMHO is a waste of time , but to get rescue you need it. The underwaterphotography course is a joke.

But none of the courses give you a license , just a certificate.

I agree that many of the shops won't let you dive or rent gear without a certificate and I don't condone people diving without some form of training.

But you can rent tanks and a speed boat in Pattaya without , it makes for a much more flexible days diving , its much cheaper (if there is 2 or 3 of you) and much quicker (you can get two dives in in a morning rather than it taking all day) that said I wouldn't recomend this option for someone who wasn't really quite experienced.

I do enjoy diving with other people ( before somebody calls me a "Billy no mates" diver) but now class myself as a SOD (Same Ocean Diver) rather than a buddy.

Main thing is I hope everybody continues to enjoy their diving and does it safely.

Cheers

[Maizefarmer]

Valid points - all dive agencies issue a certificate - NOT a license, and to th best of my understanding their is no legal requirement in Thailand to hold any agency certifcate to dive

It is very much about those respective dive shops simply not wanting a disaster on their hands, as all it needs is one uncertified diver to die in a diving incident and ............ well, the rest will be history.

But what about people who hold navy diving qaulifications or who are qualified under UK HSE commerical regs - all of which are standards far more stringent than any of the recreational certificates - will a dive shop operator, or will you as dive shop operator be willing to allow that person to dive? Personally I would be quite happy - I'd let him dive for free and give him al the PADI divers (and PADI Dive Masters) to look after (!!)

Tim

[bazmlb]

PADI have just made the D in bold - Dollars materials going up around 50% in cost.

[percy2]

It is very much about those respective dive shops simply not wanting a disaster on their hands, as all it needs is one uncertified diver to die in a diving incident and ............ well, the rest will be history.

Tim

As opposed to certified divers who unfortunately die on a regular basis. But I know what you mean one death from an uncertified diver might mean that all divers are required to have licenses.

PADI know how dangerous that would be.

Cheers

[Maizefarmer]

As a matter of curiosity - how many divers actually die in Thailand each year as a result of a diving incident?

It is very very low when looked at it in terms of just how many are taught here and how many dive here.

Would it be unfair or inaccuarte to say that of those, most would be PADI certified divers?

Proberbly yes it would be unfair, because proportionly the largest single group is PADI - question is, is it because they are not as well trained or would it be because they simply out number the other certified groups by so much?

To be honest, statisicaly the number who do die is so low that it would be impossible to fairly or accuartely put them into a group defined by agency training.

Tim

[britmaveric]

Last one was the lad doing a wreck dive - a few months or so ago.

Before that a thai lady last jan - got mangled by a boat motor as she popped up.

Prob a couple a year if that.

[skippybangkok]

Fred and his buddy doing Tech dives somewhere in thailand this year. I was south of phi Phi a few years back and an America Dr. lost his way in a cave ( he was an "instructor" and felt he could penetrate caves ( so i hear )).

Correct, Wreck one was at Sattahip, the Hardeep I think.

Then an over brave american navy guy who decided he was going to search for a lost tank at 60m ( vertical wreck ) after having done 2 dives already.

Few more, but forgot some.

Edited October 16, 2006 by skippybangkok

[britmaveric]

Then an over brave american navy guy who decided he was going to search for a lost tank at 60m ( vertical wreck ) after having done 2 dives already.

Missed the yank one -- so the lad already did two deep dives and did another??? What a <deleted>! If he wasnt a candidate for the beds I dont who would be.

[skippybangkok]

If he wasnt a candidate for the beds I dont who would be.

Beds ...mmmmmm

Yes, good friend of mine was on the trip. He is a thai tech diver / instructor etc, and told be they all told him not to be so stupid, and the 8,000 baht tank was not worth it. He insisted doing a search and rescue sweep on air for the tank which fell overboard ( by the way, in my stupid days i touched the prop / sand at 59.6m ).

Did not find the tank, and died before he go to port. Quite a few years back now

Edited October 17, 2006 by skippybangkok