NYC, Orthodox Jews reach deal on circumcision suction ritual

[Seastallion]

Keeping it real, if the practice was made illegal, some of the Orthodox mohels would still do it anyway. They are fundamentalists. They don't care about the law of the land compared to the law of the way they read Torah.

Like some people in some countries want to make all circumcisions illegal even for Muslims and Jews. That would not stop Muslims and Jews from doing circumcisions ... it would just force it underground and make it more unsafe, like banning abortions.

Also Jews don't have a Pope. Rather there are different sects (called movements). So if there was a Jewish Pope for all Jews, he could say, just stop it everybody, God says so, but with Jews it doesn't work that way.

Yes, I said that I thought that prohibition wouldn't stop it completely too.

But that does not excuse the authorities from prohibiting it.

Again, I say...do you wait for another Jewish baby to die? Or is the thought of a rabbi put in gaol for breaking the law too much?

[BKKBobby]

There is nothing sexual about this practice. I do think it should be illegal as well. Not because it's a sexual practice, which it isn't, but because of health concerns. Folks, don't imagine the oral suction practice is widely done among Jews. It is not. Only certain very orthodox types do it, a minority. But I would agree it shouldn't be done at all and Blasio should have gone further.

http://heebmagazine.com/54227/54227

I wish I could say that the long-marginalized practice of sucking the blood off a newly circumcised infant’s penis was strictly the purview of the imaginary monsters in this video, but – alas – it’s actually still done by real-life villains with little to no regard for the law, to say nothing of public safety.

There should be no suction even if its not a health concern, and no matter if its sexual or not. Its just wrong.

[Jingthing]

There is nothing sexual about this practice. I do think it should be illegal as well. Not because it's a sexual practice, which it isn't, but because of health concerns. Folks, don't imagine the oral suction practice is widely done among Jews. It is not. Only certain very orthodox types do it, a minority. But I would agree it shouldn't be done at all and Blasio should have gone further.

http://heebmagazine.com/54227/54227

I wish I could say that the long-marginalized practice of sucking the blood off a newly circumcised infant’s penis was strictly the purview of the imaginary monsters in this video, but – alas – it’s actually still done by real-life villains with little to no regard for the law, to say nothing of public safety.

There should be no suction even if its not a health concern, and no matter if its sexual or not. Its just wrong.

Not sure what you are saying. There is oral suction and then there are modern methods that do suction of the blood without such contact. The latter is a medical question that I have no knowledge about. Are you saying that even the non-oral suction (which is used by some as the modern alternative) is harmful?

Edited February 25, 2015 by Jingthing

[simon43]

So sucking babies' dicks is OK if you an orthodox Jew?

Ok, howabout if the circumcision is perforrmed on an older boy, say 8 or 10 years old. Is it still ok to suck his dick 'for religious purposes'?

What is the Rabii's position on the cutoff age when dick-sucking changes from a religious act to a sexual act?

[Jingthing]

So sucking babies' dicks is OK if you an orthodox Jew?

Ok, howabout if the circumcision is perforrmed on an older boy, say 8 or 10 years old. Is it still ok to suck his dick 'for religious purposes'?

What is the Rabii's position on the cutoff age when dick-sucking changes from a religious act to a sexual act?

I have never heard of a Jewish ritual circumcision being done on older children. This is done at infancy. You are obviously just posting incendiary garbage ... fooling nobody. The oral suction ritual, offensive and outdated as it is, has nothing to do with sexual pleasure for the mohel or obviously the baby. Duh!

Edited February 25, 2015 by Jingthing

[simon43]

The oral suction ritual, offensive and outdated as it is, has nothing to do with sexual pleasure for the mohel or obviously the baby.

Well, next time a pedophile is arrested for dick-sucking, he knows what excuse to give:

'I know I was sucking his dick, but honestly, I wasn't getting any pleasure from it'

IMHO, it is an evil and perverse practice that should be outlawed immediately and those adults involved be arrested and charged.

IMHO of course

[BKKBobby]

There is nothing sexual about this practice. I do think it should be illegal as well. Not because it's a sexual practice, which it isn't, but because of health concerns. Folks, don't imagine the oral suction practice is widely done among Jews. It is not. Only certain very orthodox types do it, a minority. But I would agree it shouldn't be done at all and Blasio should have gone further.

http://heebmagazine.com/54227/54227

I wish I could say that the long-marginalized practice of sucking the blood off a newly circumcised infant’s penis was strictly the purview of the imaginary monsters in this video, but – alas – it’s actually still done by real-life villains with little to no regard for the law, to say nothing of public safety.

There should be no suction even if its not a health concern, and no matter if its sexual or not. Its just wrong.

Not sure what you are saying. There is oral suction and then there are modern methods that do suction of the blood without such contact. The latter is a medical question that I have no knowledge about. Are you saying that even the non-oral suction (which is used by some as the modern alternative) is harmful?

No, im only talking about oral suction. I just think its wrong.

[Jingthing]

Noted. Don't take your baby boy to an Orthodox mohel. Sorted.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Wat dee]

So let's wait for the next dead/brain damaged and THEN check the sick individual responsible for passing the disease!?

[Jingthing]

Seems like there are bigger issues in the world today putting a lot more people at risk. Like ISIS.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[copa8]

mein gott...what da heck did i just read?!?

Edited February 25, 2015 by copa8

[Wat dee]

Well it seems these suckings could be just the tip of the molestation.

http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/pedophiliasecret.

[Wat dee]

http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/pedophiliasecret.html

Here is the full link

[Seastallion]

Seems like there are bigger issues in the world today putting a lot more people at risk. Like ISIS.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

???? Really? Lets just discard the topic at hand because it's too hard to bear thinking about that Jewish clergy insist on performing this, lets say "primitive" practice regardless of the death of Jewish babies.

Islam is worse....of course.

Any other time a (non-Jewish) person is responsible for the death of a Jewish baby, and the whole of Israel might mobilise. In fact, a whole bunch of the alleged baby-killer's race's babies might die in retribution.

[up-country_sinclair]

I have to admit that I'm stunned that some here are attempting to play down the fact that grown men are putting baby's penises in their mouths.

"Oh, it's not a big deal"

"Oh, it doesn't happen a lot"

"Oh, there are bigger problems in the world".

I don't care what the reason/excuse is. It's flat out wrong and I'm embarrassed to know that this type of depravity is legal in my country of birth. In my opinion they should put these degenerates in jail immediately so as to protect other children from these sick paedos. Or maybe some think it's just a coincidence that these guys have sucked thousands of baby penises. It's just part of the job, right?

Edited February 25, 2015 by up-country_sinclair

[Seastallion]

I have to admit that I'm stunned that some here are attempting to play down the fact that grown men are putting baby's penises in their mouths.

"Oh, it's not a big deal"

"Oh, it doesn't happen a lot"

"Oh, there are bigger problems in the world".

I don't care what the reason/excuse is. It's flat out wrong and I'm embarrassed to know that this type of depravity is legal in my country of birth. In my opinion they should put these degenerates in jail immediately so as to protect other children from these sick paedos. Or maybe some think it's just a coincidence that these guys have sucked thousands of baby penises. It's just part of the job, right?

I haven't been on the issue of penis in old men's mouths. Although I find it disconcerting, to say the least, I'm prepared to accept that there may be nothing sexual in it.

I've been on the issue of dead and brain damaged babies....but you're right that it's worriesome how any of the issues are "excused".

I think the worst is the latest..."oh, there are bigger issues in the world to worry about". THAT is disgusting in the face of poor little Jewish babies dying from preventable disease.

[Jingthing]

Well it seems these suckings could be just the tip of the molestation.

http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/pedophiliasecret.

Oh boy. Yet another chance to post rabid anti-semitic (hatred against Jews) propaganda. Dudes, it's clear here some posting aren't at all interested in promoting the health of Jewish babies. Just another excuse to paint Jews as demons with horns. Also yet again, oral suction during circumcision is NOT sexual molestation and it has never been treated as sexual molestation by the authorities, nor should it ever be.

I'll say again, I think it was valid to bring up as a health concern in New York but as far as oral suction being a major problem in the world, or New York even, it just isn't. Blowing this up way out of proportion seems suspect in motivation.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

oral suction during circumcision is NOT sexual molestation and it has never been treated as sexual molestation by the authorities, nor should it ever be.

Just because you are inclined to defend a group of grown men putting baby penises in their mouths does NOT make it acceptable or normal.

I can assure you that most Americans don't know anything about this disgusting behavior, and if they did, there would be an uproar over it being legal. My hope is that this story has "legs" and forces Mayor de Blasio to grow a pair of stones and put an end to this sickness.

Blowing this up way out of proportion seems suspect in motivation.

I'll leave it up to others to determine whether or not that was just a poor choice of words or a Freudian slip.

Anyway, the genuine suspicion in motivation is on those who are defending this abhorrent act by these degenerates simply because of their religious faith. Were this done by another religion ( I don't know, let's just say Muslims for instance), I have no doubt that we would be reading about it on nearly every thread no matter how tenuous the link to the topic of said thread.

[up-country_sinclair]

I haven't been on the issue of penis in old men's mouths. Although I find it disconcerting, to say the least, I'm prepared to accept that there may be nothing sexual in it.

I'm not.

This is not a "oh, it's just part of the job" type of thing. Of course, every job/occupation has it's downsides: Shoe salesmen have to put up with smelly feet. Taxi drivers have to deal with traffic. Teachers endure unruly and troublesome students. I wouldn't classify putting a baby penis in one's mouth thousands of times as something someone would put up with just because it's part of the job. These people are sick and they're hiding behind religion to escape detection and prosecution.

[Jingthing]

If this practice is to stop, the small minority of Orthodox Jews that think it is mandated are going to have to change their minds. Don't worry, that is sure to happen in the next few thousand years or so!

The health department has said countless times in the past that its own epidemiological studies, as well as similar studies in Canada and Israel, prove a link between MBP and neonatal herpes. Leading medical associations, including the Centers for Disease Control and the Infectious Diseases Society of America, support the city’s position. Asked on the conference call why the city does not ban the practice, an administration official said a ban would force it underground. “They will not stop practicing [MBP] no matter what we say,” the official said.

http://forward.com/articles/215428/new-york-city-changes-policy-on-controversial-circ/#ixzz3SmWIw4AX

To add, in case you think herpes virus is rare. Chance are, you, yes, you, have got it!

They also could not say what the policy would be in cases where a mohel tests positive for herpes — prevalent in more than 70% of the population — but not for the strain that infected the baby.

Some interesting historical background as to when this practice was first linked to spreading disease:

Jews obeyed this health directive for generations. But by the 19th century, science had acknowledged the microscopic agents of disease, the theory of the four humors was contested and the science of medicine began to change.

A turning point came in 1836, when an outbreak of sickness was observed among newborn Jewish babies in Vienna.

Rabbi Elazar Horowitz observed that all the infants, some of whom died from the illness, had all been circumcised by the same mohel. Moreover, all exhibited the same symptoms - an outbreak on their skin that progressed from their penis to the rest of the body.

http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/215450/how-ancient-circumcision-rite-sparked-modern-schis/?

Edited February 25, 2015 by Jingthing

[Bogan Koori]

Well it seems these suckings could be just the tip of the molestation.

http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/pedophiliasecret.

Oh boy. Yet another chance to post rabid anti-semitic (hatred against Jews) propaganda. Dudes, it's clear here some posting aren't at all interested in promoting the health of Jewish babies. Just another excuse to paint Jews as demons with horns. Also yet again, oral suction during circumcision is NOT sexual molestation and it has never been treated as sexual molestation by the authorities, nor should it ever be.

I'll say again, I think it was valid to bring up as a health concern in New York but as far as oral suction being a major problem in the world, or New York even, it just isn't. Blowing this up way out of proportion seems suspect in motivation.

So the real victims here are the Jews right? Its not the fact that these holy people are sucking infants dicks, thats not the real issue is it? If these were Muslim clerics doing the sucking the whole world would be in a foaming at the mouth frenzy, pitchforks in the street and fighter jets being mobalised. But because its Orthadox (or should I say Unorthadox Jews?) in NY then its OK? Or even normal???

You cantdefend the indefensible I am sorry.

No pork or shellfish please we are Jewish, but a small raw bleeding kransky is ok to put in our mouths!! <deleted>?

[Bogan Koori]

Keeping it real, if the practice was made illegal, some of the Orthodox mohels would still do it anyway. They are fundamentalists. They don't care about the law of the land compared to the law of the way they read Torah.

Like some people in some countries want to make all circumcisions illegal even for Muslims and Jews. That would not stop Muslims and Jews from doing circumcisions ... it would just force it underground and make it more unsafe, like banning abortions.

Also Jews don't have a Pope. Rather there are different sects (called movements). So if there was a Jewish Pope for all Jews, he could say, just stop it everybody, God says so, but with Jews it doesn't work that way.

If the practice was made illegal then the offenders would be locked up. Simple. They dont care about the law of the land then lock them up.

[Exsexyman]

Can anyone just imagine if this debate was about Muslims putting baby boys penises in their mouths because the Koran said it was written? The usual suspects would be screaming from the rooftops. So interesting that these usual suspects, who are normally so vocal on every topic about Middle East politics regarding Israel are silent. Three pages and not one post from the usual Muslim bashers! What hypocrites they are! Fair play to Jingthing, at least he has put his head above the parapet and attempted to defend this barbaric practice. But lets be honest, it is indefensible despite the apologists claiming that is not really an issue. Shameful child abuse. So where are you jockpieandbeans, Ullyssesg? These are old men sucking young boys penises. Never mind the pathetic arguments, "Ah but it is not a sexual practice". That could be the argument put up by every paedophile in history. What a disgrace.

[Jingthing]

I'm against the practice and have never said anything different than that so not sure how that is defending it. However, I think it's not a major problem and it's nothing to do with pedophilia. I would feel the same way if it was Muslims or Buddhists. Trying to claim this practice is about sexual pleasure, no matter if the practice is scientifically/logically defensible or not (it isn't) is pretty idiotic. Do you think Jewish families gather in a bris celebration and pay a mohel to sexually molest their baby? It's a circumcision rite. That's it.

Sure it could be made illegal and they could arrest people for doing it. I don't have strong feelings about that except the knowledge that it would still go on and any public health measures they are trying to impose would be more difficult to impose thus possibly putting more babies at risk.

You can't make fundamentalists of any religion not be fundamentalists. Lines must be drawn like bombing stuff that's a clear line. This is more nuanced.

Also keep in mind the U.S. culture religious freedom is taken very seriously. There is a cost for that taking that freedom too far. This might be part of the cost.

So pick your poison.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Jingthing

[Bogan Koori]

I'm against the practice and have never said anything different than that so not sure how that is defending it. However, I think it's not a major problem and it's nothing to do with pedophilia. I would feel the same way if it was Muslims or Buddhists. Trying to claim this practice is about sexual pleasure, no matter if the practice is scientifically/logically defensible or not (it isn't) is pretty idiotic. Do you think Jewish families gather in a bris celebration and pay a mohel to sexually molest their baby? It's a circumcision rite. That's it.

Sure it could be made illegal and they could arrest people for doing it. I don't have strong feelings about that except the knowledge that it would still go on and any public health measures they are trying to impose would be more difficult to impose thus possibly putting more babies at risk.

You can't make fundamentalists of any religion not be fundamentalists. Lines must be drawn like bombing stuff that's a clear line. This is more nuanced.

Also keep in mind the U.S. culture religious freedom is taken very seriously. There is a cost for that taking that freedom too far. This might be part of the cost.

So pick your poison.

"The mohel, A. Romi Cohn, said he had performed more than 25,000 circumcisions, on babies and adults, in New York City and elsewhere over the last 40 years. "

It clearly states not only are these orthadox jews just sucking on infants penises, but they are also practicing this vulgar technique on adults too.

[Jingthing]

I'm against the practice and have never said anything different than that so not sure how that is defending it. However, I think it's not a major problem and it's nothing to do with pedophilia. I would feel the same way if it was Muslims or Buddhists. Trying to claim this practice is about sexual pleasure, no matter if the practice is scientifically/logically defensible or not (it isn't) is pretty idiotic. Do you think Jewish families gather in a bris celebration and pay a mohel to sexually molest their baby? It's a circumcision rite. That's it.

Sure it could be made illegal and they could arrest people for doing it. I don't have strong feelings about that except the knowledge that it would still go on and any public health measures they are trying to impose would be more difficult to impose thus possibly putting more babies at risk.

You can't make fundamentalists of any religion not be fundamentalists. Lines must be drawn like bombing stuff that's a clear line. This is more nuanced.

Also keep in mind the U.S. culture religious freedom is taken very seriously. There is a cost for that taking that freedom too far. This might be part of the cost.

So pick your poison.

"The mohel, A. Romi Cohn, said he had performed more than 25,000 circumcisions, on babies and adults, in New York City and elsewhere over the last 40 years. "

It clearly states not only are these orthadox jews just sucking on infants penises, but they are also practicing this vulgar technique on adults too.

Show me a link please where it is explicitly says the suction is done on other than infants. The quote you cited does not actually say that suction is done on other than infants by those who do suction at all (again it is a minority that do). It is true that older males sometimes require circumcisions for Jewish religious purposes .... such as converts. You say a big number but you do realize there are many millions of Jews in the USA and New York is a center of American Jewry, so the number actually isn't that big relative to the total number of American Jews.

As far as your vulgar description, it is clearly just meant to sensationalize and unfairly suggest a sex act that doesn't happen -- here is a more sober description of what is actually done:

Then he took a sip of red wine from a cup and bent his head. He placed his lips below the cut, around the base of the baby’s penis, for a split second, creating suction, then let the wine spill from his mouth out over the wound.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/nyregion/regulation-of-circumcision-method-divides-some-jews-in-new-york.html

Now I expect people will accuse the mohels of illegally giving the babies alcohol!

BTW, as I've never witnessed this ritual in person, I watched a video of it just to see what all this noise is about. The mohel is in and out in the blink of an eye. The issue is disease transmission. The issue isn't pedophilia.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Jingthing

[Seastallion]

If this practice is to stop, the small minority of Orthodox Jews that think it is mandated are going to have to change their minds. Don't worry, that is sure to happen in the next few thousand years or so!

The health department has said countless times in the past that its own epidemiological studies, as well as similar studies in Canada and Israel, prove a link between MBP and neonatal herpes. Leading medical associations, including the Centers for Disease Control and the Infectious Diseases Society of America, support the city’s position. Asked on the conference call why the city does not ban the practice, an administration official said a ban would force it underground. “They will not stop practicing [MBP] no matter what we say,” the official said.

http://forward.com/articles/215428/new-york-city-changes-policy-on-controversial-circ/#ixzz3SmWIw4AX

To add, in case you think herpes virus is rare. Chance are, you, yes, you, have got it!

They also could not say what the policy would be in cases where a mohel tests positive for herpes — prevalent in more than 70% of the population — but not for the strain that infected the baby.

Some interesting historical background as to when this practice was first linked to spreading disease:

Jews obeyed this health directive for generations. But by the 19th century, science had acknowledged the microscopic agents of disease, the theory of the four humors was contested and the science of medicine began to change.

A turning point came in 1836, when an outbreak of sickness was observed among newborn Jewish babies in Vienna.

Rabbi Elazar Horowitz observed that all the infants, some of whom died from the illness, had all been circumcised by the same mohel. Moreover, all exhibited the same symptoms - an outbreak on their skin that progressed from their penis to the rest of the body.

http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/215450/how-ancient-circumcision-rite-sparked-modern-schis/?

So, the deaths and illness are also known to occur in Canada. One has to assume it is wherever Orthodox Jews carry out the practice of MBP.

So, Jews themselves have known about the connection for over 150 years.

To say prohibition will only drive it underground is not an excuse. To rescind the requirement for parental consent is outrageous! The negotiator for the Mayor's office ought to be sacked because he walked away from those negotiations having given the Rabbis all that they wanted and gained nothing for future babies.

If you, as a representative of society are going to submit to the will of a religious group to continue MBP, informed parental consent is the minimum requirement. At least some parents might value their baby's life over the desire of a mohel to do the procedure.

[Bogan Koori]

I'm against the practice and have never said anything different than that so not sure how that is defending it. However, I think it's not a major problem and it's nothing to do with pedophilia. I would feel the same way if it was Muslims or Buddhists. Trying to claim this practice is about sexual pleasure, no matter if the practice is scientifically/logically defensible or not (it isn't) is pretty idiotic. Do you think Jewish families gather in a bris celebration and pay a mohel to sexually molest their baby? It's a circumcision rite. That's it.

Sure it could be made illegal and they could arrest people for doing it. I don't have strong feelings about that except the knowledge that it would still go on and any public health measures they are trying to impose would be more difficult to impose thus possibly putting more babies at risk.

You can't make fundamentalists of any religion not be fundamentalists. Lines must be drawn like bombing stuff that's a clear line. This is more nuanced.

Also keep in mind the U.S. culture religious freedom is taken very seriously. There is a cost for that taking that freedom too far. This might be part of the cost.

So pick your poison.

"The mohel, A. Romi Cohn, said he had performed more than 25,000 circumcisions, on babies and adults, in New York City and elsewhere over the last 40 years. "

It clearly states not only are these orthadox jews just sucking on infants penises, but they are also practicing this vulgar technique on adults too.

Show me a link please where it is explicitly says the suction is done on other than infants. The quote you cited does not actually say that suction is done on other than infants by those who do suction at all (again it is a minority that do). It is true that older males sometimes require circumcisions for Jewish religious purposes .... such as converts. You say a big number but you do realize there are many millions of Jews in the USA and New York is a center of American Jewry, so the number actually isn't that big relative to the total number of American Jews.

As far as your vulgar description, it is clearly just meant to sensationalize and unfairly suggest a sex act that doesn't happen -- here is a more sober description of what is actually done:

Then he took a sip of red wine from a cup and bent his head. He placed his lips below the cut, around the base of the baby’s penis, for a split second, creating suction, then let the wine spill from his mouth out over the wound.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/nyregion/regulation-of-circumcision-method-divides-some-jews-in-new-york.html

Now I expect people will accuse the mohels of illegally giving the babies alcohol!

BTW, as I've never witnessed this ritual in person, I watched a video of it just to see what all this noise is about. The mohel is in and out in the blink of an eye. The issue is disease transmission. The issue isn't pedophilia.

I just vomited after reading that link

[Bogan Koori]

So for arguments sake. Somebody could start up a new religion. Then include sucking babies penises into the rituals, and it would be all kosher?

[Seastallion]

So for arguments sake. Somebody could start up a new religion. Then include sucking babies penises into the rituals, and it would be all kosher?

It wouldn't be, of course. It would be vilified and banned.

Part of the Orthodox argument is that it is traditional. We've always done it that way, so we will continue to do it that way.

A poor argument, especially in light of science having advanced since the practice was started, and MOST especially since the practice can result in the death of babies. They know it, and they continue to do it..... that would be deemed criminal in any other Western society.

The other option to prohibition would be to prosecute on grounds of causing death through negligence. That would certainly happen to a cleric of any other religious sect...say the snake handler hillbillies, but somehow I think snake-handling Christians don't wield enough political clout to ward off prosecutions.