It's time to reform Thai Buddhism

[Godders]

Time for Thai monks to practice what Buddha preached.

[sprq]

There is no such thing as Thai Buddhism, it is Theravada Buddhism.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/whats-thera.htm

However if they are talking about the Dhammakaya then this is a branch movement in some ways similar to Mahayana it seems.

Personally I would suggest that the essence of the religion remains the same. It simply manifests itself as a reflection of the present culture and society. In effect the religion is showing us the state of culture and society as it stands. It is not the religion that needs changing is it?

Yes, there is, if you look at reality instead of dictionaries. The mixture of a misunderstood Theravada Buddhism with many superstitious beliefs and practices, corrupt behaviour and hierarchical thinking constitutes what we call Thai Buddhism, we being those of us who are not hung up on classic categories.

[FangFerang]

It is the fate of all religions to be corrupted with time.

BTW what is "Thai" Buddhism?

Thai Buddhism is the Theraveda tradition (or Theraya), with the Mahayana, or Mahaya, tradition standing alongside (much like Catholic and Protestant).

There is no code in Buddhism that allows the shenanigans going on in Thailand, and the Supreme Patriarch knew it.

A mob of dishonest and money-hungry Thai monks breathed a sigh of relief when the Supreme Patriarch passed into the next life or world. He was dead set against the "reforms" that the new monks want, being a deviant deviation from the tripitaka that would allow monks to accept money, cars and even land...for the 'good of all', of course.

I spoke to a Laos monk, a Cambodian monk and a Vietnamese monk at immigration about this (sounds like a bad bar joke I know).

They were not appalled. They were disappointed in...very detached ways.

[pendingo]

There is no such thing as Thai Buddhism, it is Theravada Buddhism.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/whats-thera.htm

However if they are talking about the Dhammakaya then this is a branch movement in some ways similar to Mahayana it seems.

Personally I would suggest that the essence of the religion remains the same. It simply manifests itself as a reflection of the present culture and society. In effect the religion is showing us the state of culture and society as it stands. It is not the religion that needs changing is it?

All religions and dogma are the creation of mankind and so have become subject to the weaknesses and fallibility of mankind, no matter how good the original intent, whether they be Buddhism,Christianity, Islam, Hinduism Communism, Democracy and all the spin off's and factions of each.

Once all the trappings and superstitions are removed what is left? Answer-NOTHING!!

Human beings are hell bent on destroying each other and will eventually become extinct unless they can learn to live with each other in peace and harmony. It is only once people start thinking for themselves, asking questions and stop being afraid they will truly be free.

[cmsally]

There is no such thing as Thai Buddhism, it is Theravada Buddhism.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/whats-thera.htm

However if they are talking about the Dhammakaya then this is a branch movement in some ways similar to Mahayana it seems.

Personally I would suggest that the essence of the religion remains the same. It simply manifests itself as a reflection of the present culture and society. In effect the religion is showing us the state of culture and society as it stands. It is not the religion that needs changing is it?

Yes, there is, if you look at reality instead of dictionaries. The mixture of a misunderstood Theravada Buddhism with many superstitious beliefs and practices, corrupt behaviour and hierarchical thinking constitutes what we call Thai Buddhism, we being those of us who are not hung up on classic categories.

So in other words, the essence of the religion mixed with the society. Then what you have is basically the effect that Thai society has had on Buddhism.

There is a Thai form of Buddhism, in that it is entwined with systems of power, knowledge and symbolism within the country.

In as much as it has changed the actual religion would maybe depend on what you would see as "religion". My understanding of "religion" (or at least Buddhism) would be in as so far as it addresses the basic aspects of the human condition.

The thing that has become "Thai Buddhism" is inextricably bound with the elements of power, knowledge and hierarchy of the society.

One result of this, is to some extent being hoisted by its "Thainess" petard in that it is not open to criticism.

It is fairly predictable that you will see factional criticism rather than total criticism, because overall criticism suggests endemic decay.

[bushmill]

they could start with practicing the religion

Is Thai Buddhism a religion or a teaching?

Yes please, reform it post haste! I am sick of seeing monks smoking cigarettes, driving pick-ups or riding 3 wheelers....and I have heard there are some who drink alcohol and fraternize with woman.

Totally disgusting behavior!

And eating meat or wearing 2nd hand animal skins.

It's more teaching and a philosophie. There is no God / Allah or something else People are pray to get enlightened same as Buddha. It's a common misunderstanding to say Buddhists praiing to Buddha. Buddha i gone to Nirvana and can not help anymore. He left the directions / teaching words how to behave and to live.

.

[Neeranam]

they could start with practicing the religion

Is Thai Buddhism a religion or a teaching?

Yes please, reform it post haste! I am sick of seeing monks smoking cigarettes, driving pick-ups or riding 3 wheelers....and I have heard there are some who drink alcohol and fraternize with woman.

Totally disgusting behavior!

And eating meat or wearing 2nd hand animal skins.

It's more teaching and a philosophie. There is no God / Allah or something else People are pray to get enlightened same as Buddha. It's a common misunderstanding to say Buddhists praiing to Buddha. Buddha i gone to Nirvana and can not help anymore. He left the directions / teaching words how to behave and to live.

.

Thai Buddhists pray to "sing suk sit" สิ่งศักดิ์สิทธิ์ to ask for things in much the same way as Christians pray to Jesus , Muslims Allah etc. Thai Buddhism is very different from say Tibetan and it's not as simple as Mahayana v Theravada.

[AZBill]

Sounds like they've been learning from the Vatican

[sean in udon]

BTW what is "Thai" Buddhism?

It's just another name for fake Buddhism.

I was torn between fake or scam. You've had fake Buddhism, so that leaves me with scam Buddhism.

Heard some horror stories locally about monks. One example, Thai lady goes to monks with problem and is told you are going to die in 3 weeks. However, if you do this, this and this ( one of which was making a donation to the monk/temple) you will make merit and be saved. She complied and by some miracle, lived.

I've also seen guys walking barefoot on the street who stopped to check directions with my Thai friend.

I offered to give a lift to where they were headed, but was politely refused. My understanding was these guys 'walk the land' a bit like Caine (David Carradine) in Kung <deleted> and have nothing. I would like to think that is true as that kind of commitment, and rejection of material things, impresses me more than any shiny gold temple.

[khaowong1]

One way to get all the ex-cons out of the monkhood is to make the minimum time as a monk five years.

Wat Pah Nanachat does this... But the question is, how do you make this stick? They don't live in a prison compound..

[Squeegee]

Q. What kind of selfish, brainless fools think they can buy their way into any of the Heavens peddled by organized spirituality?

A. Rich and poor alike.

Such is humanity.

[KhnomKhnom]

It is the fate of all religions to be corrupted with time.

BTW what is "Thai" Buddhism?

Thailand does have a somewhat unique practice of Buddhist, probably enough to have that label, "Thai Buddhism." This is likely true especially if you add Theravada Buddhist school which is practiced here and is different in the finer points from, say, Tibetan Buddhism or Zen.

[rametindallas]

Where there's money there's politics. Seems that some abbots have fallen in with the right-wing and become part of the elite.

And another Thaksin supporter crawls out of the woodwork. Member since 2008 and his 41st post. Where have you been all this time, ddavidovsky? Surely there have been better opportunities over the last six years for you attack the 'elite'.

TRT and Dhammakaya Temple - perfect match

According to the law of karma, as promoted by the temple, Thaksin Shinawatra was hailed as the ideal lay Buddhist, who had been blessed by the merit of his past lives and was endowed with a great many virtues. The temple played a song praising Thaksin composed by the Phra Dhammajayo himself on its Dow Tham satellite television channel - broadcasting 24 hours a day.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/09/27/opinion/opinion_30014752.php

I didn't know Dr. Thaksin was regarded as part of the right-wing elite. Oh, well, I guess it's true what they say, "Ignorance is bliss". You must be extremely blissful.

Edited February 26, 2015 by rametindallas

[rametindallas]

Yes please, reform it post haste! I am sick of seeing monks smoking cigarettes, driving pick-ups or riding 3 wheelers....and I have heard there are some who drink alcohol and fraternize with woman.

Totally disgusting behavior!

May I ask which spiritual path you are on which advocates judgement like this?

Some monks are in for a few days before they get married, some are institutionalized - have some compassion.

Why not go and talk to the next monk you see smoking and tell him you think is is disgusting? Because you are full of ****.

I agree that driving a pick up is disgusting

What's disgusting is that they are blatantly breaking the rules and bring shame and derision on the Monk-hood. If you respect Thai monks at all, you would be offended by the jokers BSJ mentioned.

[rametindallas]

Hasn't Buddhism here been modified enough to become a more convenient, and "consumer friendly" version called Thai Buddhism?

Not very 'consumer friendly' to want all your money. In the Thai version, you have a choice of living the Buddhist model of paying money for advancement towards Nibbana. Maybe that choice is what you would call 'consumer friendly'. Contrary to what 'Thai' Buddhism teaches, it doesn't work that way.

Nibbana

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nibbana.html

[Tokay]

They need a complete do-over. Kick out all the monks, all the gangs that take money from the temples, and everyone else involved, and just start it all over. It has become so perverse, it is insulting to call it Buddhism. Just having temples and dressing in robes doesn't make you a Buddhist any more than wearing white as a wedding dress makes you a virgin.

When Deepak Chopra was here filming, even he said what they practice isn't real Buddhism. It was a let down for him as well.

I'm sure there are a good handful of walk the path, but the majority are simply twisted and lost.

[selftaopath]

My wife was just telling me that there is a move on at the moment, by the Buddhist National Administrators to identify fake monks. Apparently inspectors are going around and reviewing monk's ID cards. There must be something on there that indicates whether the monk has been officially ordained. There is probably some merit in this, even though Khaosan Rd would be able to knock forged cards out.

Just as a side note, there are thousands of Thais out there that aren't too happy about the watering down of practices of some monks either. I have seen very old Thais very much saddened by it. As some have said its not the philosophy of Buddhism that is broken.

In our village in Isaan there are two differing "wats." One the locals call "the religious" and the other they call "the social" wat.

The "religious" wat doesn't "play games" they are TOTALLY serious and wear darker colored robes.

[issanaus]

"Buddhism" started with one man teaching simple but profound truths which he expanded upon to help others understand and apply that learning to their development. The rules that comprise the Monks code of conduct were developed in response to complains (principally from the lay people) and assist Monks to achieve their development and to ensure that the confidence of the lay people was not disturbed by the actions of particular monks. From "my" understanding of. the teachings The Buddha did not ever seek or try to hide the infractions that occurred - actions (based on intention) that are so clearly identified in the Second Noble Truth.

Claims that the government are interfering in Buddhism are flawed for a number of reason including what I stated above. The more pertinent reason is that some/many Buddhist Monks/organisations have strayed into areas that are not the province of "religion" but are clearly secular (money, bank accounts, real assets .... What :I:: have not yet seen anywhere in the Canon is where the Buddha taught that monks traveling to countries were exempt from the laws of that land.

What the government is looking into is financial dealing of various Monks and organisations. What the Sangha Council needs to do is address the issue of compliance with monastic codes and the teaching of the Dhamma.

This is not the first time that Buddhism in Thailand has needed a good cleaning - there is a clear historical event that can be looked at. If anyone is interested in what is now considered to be Thai Buddhism and previous reforms the reference can provide an interest place to start researching.

https://sujato.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/mongkut-and-dhammayut-modern-trend.pdf

[Seastallion]

One way to get all the ex-cons out of the monkhood is to make the minimum time as a monk five years.

Quick, enact that rule now before Suthep decides he's done enough PR.

He was here in Hatyai yesterday. Hatyai, a bastion of yellow. Yet, in true emperor's new clothes style, the streets were lined with worshipers waiting to put something in the begging bowl of this special "monk".

[khaowong1]

"Buddhism" started with one man teaching simple but profound truths which he expanded upon to help others understand and apply that learning to their development. The rules that comprise the Monks code of conduct were developed in response to complains (principally from the lay people) and assist Monks to achieve their development and to ensure that the confidence of the lay people was not disturbed by the actions of particular monks. From "my" understanding of. the teachings The Buddha did not ever seek or try to hide the infractions that occurred - actions (based on intention) that are so clearly identified in the Second Noble Truth.

Claims that the government are interfering in Buddhism are flawed for a number of reason including what I stated above. The more pertinent reason is that some/many Buddhist Monks/organisations have strayed into areas that are not the province of "religion" but are clearly secular (money, bank accounts, real assets .... What :I:: have not yet seen anywhere in the Canon is where the Buddha taught that monks traveling to countries were exempt from the laws of that land.

What the government is looking into is financial dealing of various Monks and organisations. What the Sangha Council needs to do is address the issue of compliance with monastic codes and the teaching of the Dhamma.

This is not the first time that Buddhism in Thailand has needed a good cleaning - there is a clear historical event that can be looked at. If anyone is interested in what is now considered to be Thai Buddhism and previous reforms the reference can provide an interest place to start researching.

https://sujato.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/mongkut-and-dhammayut-modern-trend.pdf

Yes, a 150 years ago, King Mongkut became really dis-satisfied with the way Buddhism was headed and changed it. He started the Dhammayut tradition which is now pretty much called the Forest tradition. It's still in practice today, but I'm pretty sure the Mahanakays are more prevalent. Then you have the Dhammakayas with their space ship looking temple which has started all this hula balloo.. As for the Sangha council, each time their is a succession of a Supreme Patriarch, the role is given to either a Dhammayut monk or a Mahanakay monk. Alternating one after the other. This time, it's going to a Dhammakaya monk, for the first time ever, in the presence of the current abbot of Wat Pak Nam.. I seen nothing of consequence going to happen anytime soon. ( probably all my spelling is wrong, but you probably know what I'm talking about. )

[Mot Dang]

My wife was just telling me that there is a move on at the moment, by the Buddhist National Administrators to identify fake monks. Apparently inspectors are going around and reviewing monk's ID cards. There must be something on there that indicates whether the monk has been officially ordained. There is probably some merit in this, even though Khaosan Rd would be able to knock forged cards out.

Just as a side note, there are thousands of Thais out there that aren't too happy about the watering down of practices of some monks either. I have seen very old Thais very much saddened by it. As some have said its not the philosophy of Buddhism that is broken.

In our village in Isaan there are two differing "wats." One the locals call "the religious" and the other they call "the social" wat.

The "religious" wat doesn't "play games" they are TOTALLY serious and wear darker colored robes.

I live right at the top of the Buriram panhandle. Have done so for bit more than 30 years. Through my wife I generally play a small part in administration of our Wat. We have had our ups and downs in the attitudes of some monks. It is usually the visiting monks we have trouble with. Usually drinking. It has always been the villagers that have weeded out the no-hopers, but now we have a younger Abbott and he is pretty tough. Brought stability back. Our Wat is Theravada (yellow robe), the orange/brown robes are the Mahayna monks. They traditionally are at the "jungle temples", but we get a mix sometimes. And yes the Mahayna guys tend be more serious, they are very much into private meditation.

There is an interesting book that explains some of these practices, that you don't find elsewhere. "Buddhism Explained". Written by a falang monk, ordained in Thailand, named Bhikkhu Khantipalo. 1970.

Hope you don't think I'm telling you how to suck eggs ??