Volunteering, Legality and Much Confusion

[LivinLOS]

Someone mentioned a woman, who was running some kind of dog charity getting in trouble.........

That is quite vague. Don't think I'll add it as a case without further information.

Margret of the soi dog foundation on Phuket..

She had problems over her status and IIRC had to leave the foundation (and the island) its arguable of this was due to the stance and criticism of the government dog pound by the SDF and the work permit / visa problems were pursued as payback.. But payback or not thats apparently what happened.

Then of course you have the many many tsunami volunteers.. Told in no uncertain terms to stop volunteering or face deportation.

You have the 'jamming' musicians..

Etc etc

[bangmai]

Someone mentioned a woman, who was running some kind of dog charity getting in trouble.........

That is quite vague. Don't think I'll add it as a case without further information.

Now you have a person's name and her charity; perhaps you should reconsider, especially since you have declared yourself "chow yew," but it was already evident.

[NancyL]

Someone mentioned a woman, who was running some kind of dog charity getting in trouble.........

That is quite vague. Don't think I'll add it as a case without further information.

Margret of the soi dog foundation on Phuket..

She had problems over her status and IIRC had to leave the foundation (and the island) its arguable of this was due to the stance and criticism of the government dog pound by the SDF and the work permit / visa problems were pursued as payback.. But payback or not thats apparently what happened.

Then of course you have the many many tsunami volunteers.. Told in no uncertain terms to stop volunteering or face deportation.

You have the 'jamming' musicians..

Etc etc

This all ties back to what I said in post no. 23. It's all a matter of content -- not of the activity itself. If someone is doing good deeds in conjunction with Thai people, at their invitation and not with the intent of "showing them up" or stirring up trouble, then the the likelihood of getting in trouble is much reduced.

I recall reading about another do-gooder in Phuket who was campaigning to save the coral reefs -- mostly from destruction by the dive boat operators. Saving coral reefs is a noble activity -- getting a bunch of commercial dive boat operators upset with you is an invitation to have your entire life investigated. I can't remember the outcome, but I think he was deported over something that normally just garners a fine.

[bangmai]

Someone mentioned a woman, who was running some kind of dog charity getting in trouble.........

That is quite vague. Don't think I'll add it as a case without further information.

Margret of the soi dog foundation on Phuket..

She had problems over her status and IIRC had to leave the foundation (and the island) its arguable of this was due to the stance and criticism of the government dog pound by the SDF and the work permit / visa problems were pursued as payback.. But payback or not thats apparently what happened.

Then of course you have the many many tsunami volunteers.. Told in no uncertain terms to stop volunteering or face deportation.

You have the 'jamming' musicians..

Etc etc

then the the likelihood of getting in trouble is much reduced.

So it's a gamble.

[LivinLOS]

Someone mentioned a woman, who was running some kind of dog charity getting in trouble.........

That is quite vague. Don't think I'll add it as a case without further information.

Margret of the soi dog foundation on Phuket..

She had problems over her status and IIRC had to leave the foundation (and the island) its arguable of this was due to the stance and criticism of the government dog pound by the SDF and the work permit / visa problems were pursued as payback.. But payback or not thats apparently what happened.

Then of course you have the many many tsunami volunteers.. Told in no uncertain terms to stop volunteering or face deportation.

You have the 'jamming' musicians..

Etc etc

This all ties back to what I said in post no. 23. It's all a matter of content -- not of the activity itself. If someone is doing good deeds in conjunction with Thai people, at their invitation and not with the intent of "showing them up" or stirring up trouble, then the the likelihood of getting in trouble is much reduced.

I recall reading about another do-gooder in Phuket who was campaigning to save the coral reefs -- mostly from destruction by the dive boat operators. Saving coral reefs is a noble activity -- getting a bunch of commercial dive boat operators upset with you is an invitation to have your entire life investigated. I can't remember the outcome, but I think he was deported over something that normally just garners a fine.

And yet in doing good you may often find yourself in conflict with people who wish to profit from or otherwise have vested interests in aspects of what your changing. No good deed goes unpunished.

Many people keep saying "show me the examples" and then when those examples get shown, retreat with "well they must have upset someone".. Well yes obviously, that doesnt change the fact that this law was used to then disrupt and ruin their lives.

[Dante99]

Someone mentioned a woman, who was running some kind of dog charity getting in trouble.........

That is quite vague. Don't think I'll add it as a case without further information.

Margret of the soi dog foundation on Phuket..

She had problems over her status and IIRC had to leave the foundation (and the island) its arguable of this was due to the stance and criticism of the government dog pound by the SDF and the work permit / visa problems were pursued as payback.. But payback or not thats apparently what happened.

Then of course you have the many many tsunami volunteers.. Told in no uncertain terms to stop volunteering or face deportation.

You have the 'jamming' musicians..

Etc etc

According to the Soi Dog Foundation website, Margot is still in Thailand working the dog problems. Not denying she had work permit problems, don't know but if she got herself in a hassle with government officials she was going to loose one way or another.

I did read about Thailand refusing some tsunami volunteers but also personally know about 20 CM people who went there and provided help for weeks and did not have work permits or any problems, they are still here.

I do not quite put jamming musicians into the catigory of people doing volunteer work but each to their own opinion.

Certainly you could get into work permit problems over numerous things but as many posters have stated, they have provided volunteer services and had no problems. It is very much about how you do things.

Are the work permit laws of special interest or are you anal about all laws?

[LivinLOS]

I do not quite put jamming musicians into the catigory of people doing volunteer work but each to their own opinion.

Neither do I was using the example to show there are plenty of cases where people are given work permit based problems, when doing something for thier own satisfaction free of remuneration or profit.

Certainly you could get into work permit problems over numerous things but as many posters have stated, they have provided volunteer services and had no problems. It is very much about how you do things.

Many people sell drugs and dont get caught.. Many people ride without helmets and dont get caught.. Not getting caught for something is not proof its 'ok' 'legal' or even 'tolerated' when brought to authorities attention.

Are the work permit laws of special interest or are you anal about all laws?

Erm.. This is a thread on work permit legality.. The fact is volunteering is illegal without a work permit.. If people want to break that law, thats fine, just presenting it as not illegal, when it is, is miss information.

The fact is the legal definition of work in Thailand is a vague catch all, that includes the word it is attempting to define within the definition itself (total logic fail there) and in a sane country would be legally challenged to gain a more accurate definition. However here it seems the powers that be like to have vague ill defined rules and laws, therefore allowing many layers to profit from being paid to interpret them one way or another.

[Dante99]

Yes, other countries like the USA certainly have well defined laws which do not give lawyers much chance to profit, Or wait a minute, is that true about the USA which may still have the largest number of lawyers per capita of all countries in the world? And in the USA laws become very clear only after about 20 years of having lawyers argue them the courts, it is called case law.

Anyway it is sure great that you are sharing your legal expertise about Thai work permit law, you must be quite good at Thai to be able to read and understand Thai law.

[Mapguy]

Seems some people still don't get it. Check NancyL's post #23 once again, if anyone is at all serious about OP's topic.

[Dante99]

Seems some people still don't get it. Check NancyL's post #23 once again, if anyone is at all serious about OP's topic.

Too much grey, some can only see black and white.

[Mapguy]

Seems some people still don't get it. Check NancyL's post #23 once again, if anyone is at all serious about OP's topic.

Too much grey, some can only see black and white.

Yes, the law --- anywhere --- is actually quite grey rather than black & white and its application depends quite often upon the exercise of good judgment, to use a simple phrase. Hmmmm? Is that what judges are for? And, nevermind judges; decisions are made for better or worse (depending on whether or not you are a defendant, of course!) by many people within the system, from policemen to prosecutors to grand juries.

[roo860]

Junglechief is asking things like "is it technically legal" and "where do they draw the line" which can only be answered by a lawyer and to what end? It is what you can do that matters.

Donatating things including prepared food is fine. Most likely cooking occasionally at a school, orphanage or wat would be no problem. I doubt there has ever been a issue for a foreigner doing this in cultural sensitive way but if you are worried which you seem to be, why not just do the cooking at home?

If you need absoulte rules and lines, this is not the place for you.

Lets get real. Prosecution for giving to the needy?

It is a whole different thing if you are going to make a big deal about your fantastic cooking or otherwise draw attention to yourself, the great farang chief.

I thought you were going to contribute something worthwhile in the beginning but end up just making (wrong) assumptions and then telling me where not to live my life and then try to make fun of me.

Why oh why do I even come to this forum looking for help to help some people who want to help other people?

Should I start every post requesting sincere people to please only reply? Or have they all been scared away from TV already?

Guess I should have asked for positive contributions but hardly expect that would work with the men/children of TV.

You're right Chef, it was a very childish post.

[Rotweiler]

There is another aspect of legality involved in this subject - the many semi- and illegitimate companies involved in "volunteer" placement. A simple Yahoo search will bring out thousands of these, some appear totally legitimatel; others not so. An example:

AFFORDABLE VOLUNTEERING IN THAILAND: FEES FROM US$320

Volunteer in Thailand with International Volunteer HQ! Situated in Chiang Rai in Northern Thailand, volunteers choose to participate in Outdoor Work such as maintenance, construction, and renovation projects.....

The "volunteer" pays the company somewhere between US$600 and $1,600 for "volunteer" (unpaid) stay in Northern Thailand. A great money-making business - the site claims to have "placed over 42,000 volunteers since 2007". The following is quoted from their site:

1 Week 320 2 Weeks 380 3 Weeks 460 4 Weeks 500 5 Weeks 600 6 Weeks 690 8 Weeks 880 10 Weeks 1100 12 Weeks 1320

Please note: All programs attract a Registration Fee of $279 USD on top of the Program Fee.

Perhaps these are the people we should be crapping on.

[uptheos]

Why anyone would pay to volunteer is beyond me.

There are lots of people in need who could be helped under the radar.

Volunteering doesn't have to be BIG, "look at what I'm doing aren't I good?".

Sometimes just taking a meal to someone, sitting with them or getting some shopping, means so much more than some of the grandiose schemes that seem to be masquerade as volunteering.

[Mapguy]

Good points.

Most likely people want to volunteer abroad (whatever their motives) and really haven't any contacts on the ground, don't know how to proceed, and look for established agents or NGOs, non-for-profits, foundations and other charitable enterprises by searching the Internet. As has been pointed out above, some of these are legitimate and some are not.

[NancyL]

These "pay to volunteer" outfits would do better to brand themselves as "adventure vacations" because that's really what they are. I think that's how the Thai authorities look at them, too. If someone is here on a tourist visa and paid to have a holiday experience, then they aren't working. I think that's how Habitat for Humanity got around the visa and work permit rules when Jimmy Carter came here about five years ago for the big volunteer activity. Everyone who "volunteered" had to pay a big fee which was suppose to cover local logistics. When you contacted them pointing out that you were already local and wanted to volunteer, there was no interest in your contribution.

[bangmai]

lots of articles om the orphanage business in Cambodia...apparently, only 28% of the "orphans" are actually orphans. Looks like they do a lot less harm shoveling elephant dung. How many would actually visit an orphanage in their home country? Even for the ones, who aren't pedos; it is still beyond weird.

https://orphanagetourismcambodia.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/volunteering-in-cambodia-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

[junglechef]

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lots of articles om the orphanage business in Cambodia...apparently, only 28% of the "orphans" are actually orphans. Looks like they do a lot less harm shoveling elephant dung. How many would actually visit an orphanage in their home country? Even for the ones, who aren't pedos; it is still beyond weird.

https://orphanagetourismcambodia.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/volunteering-in-cambodia-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

OP back to make a quick point.

As many things are open to interpretation here the word "orphanage" and in turn "orphan" can mean a child in need. Perhaps they do have a living parent but one whom is not able to care for them for financial reasons or mental capacity, maybe they are not around having either left or have been incarcerated. But never the less these child deserves to live in a place where they receive food, clothing and shelter not to mention an education and very importantly love.

I am not disputing the existence of "ugly" situations that take advantage of both children and volunteers alike.

But just because there are children whom are not technically, in the English language definition, orphans, they are more then deserving for help.

(I realize the linked article hints at this but the post did not)

As for wanting to help children in need anywhere, including one's home country, I think it is noble and is anything but "weird". Of course there is child protection systems as is stated in the article. In America I went through a thorough back round check etc. before I was able to mentor a pre-teen boy as a "Big Brother".

And the same goes for here, giving any kind of support, either financial, educational, moral and/or emotional is wonderful and a great way to give back to the people of the country one visits or lives in and the world from which we have received so many things.

[bangmai]

JC, you sound sincere, but perhaps too idealistic. As long as there are couples willing to pay 30K USD in "adoption fees" to adopt babies from China, Russia, etc...there will be a never ending supply. And why is it they feel the need to go to a foreign country? 13,000 orphans in California, 5000 in Florida....It's good to help out, but you also have to look at the fraud factor. I've heard a lot of reports of donated goods promptly showing up at the local weekend market. I won't go on, but I have a serious distrust of most of the NGO people...they seem to need high orphan numbers more than anyone, including the kids' parents, who may very well be alive.

[junglechef]

JC, you sound sincere, but perhaps too idealistic. As long as there are couples willing to pay 30K USD in "adoption fees" to adopt babies from China, Russia, etc...there will be a never ending supply. And why is it they feel the need to go to a foreign country? 13,000 orphans in California, 5000 in Florida....It's good to help out, but you also have to look at the fraud factor. I've heard a lot of reports of donated goods promptly showing up at the local weekend market. I won't go on, but I have a serious distrust of most of the NGO people...they seem to need high orphan numbers more than anyone, including the kids' parents, who may very well be alive.

Too idealistic or having a positive mental attitude AND doing something realistic with it??

One does not have to get involved with NGO people to help needy children.

One does not have to be defrauded in the process of helping needy children.

One does not have to rely on reports one's heard as another excuse as why not to help needy children.

One can vet a prospective recipient of one's help, help in constructive ways and be sure one's efforts are being used as one intended.

Sure it's easier to just send a check but if helping the lives of children anywhere in the world is one's goal there are many ways to do so.

I have and continue doing so with my resources which include effort, time and money and know I'm making a difference.

Does this change the fraud, people with agendas and business aspect of this issue, no.

Does this change the lives of the kids I'm helping, YES!!

[Derek M]

I'll give you my tuppance worth, and I volunteer a fair bit various things. And from what I understand

Over time I've heard a lots about the need for a Work Permit to do any Volunteer Work here.

Say a group of foreigners who just go and cook at an orphanage every now and then. They go shopping with their own money and buy food and cook on premise and serve the kids. For the purpose of this example let's say they don't have government permission including any paperwork that allows them to.

Is this technically legal?

Technically no, not legal You are working, salaried or not. By working for free it may be that they see you as taking away a job that a local Thai could be doing for a salary. Sadly Volunteering, As I understand it is still classified as working and you do need a visa. Fact you ask or work for no salary is irrelevant.

If not where is the line drawn? Can you cook only occasionally as long as it's not a regular thing? Or only if it's a one-off thing?

If not can you shop and donate the food? What about cooking at one's home and dropping off the food? Or can you only donate the food? Or only money?

1) No idea where the line is drawn, Quite sure it is doing actual work, paid or not

2) cant say 100% but I would say legally no as WP would be required

3) as No 2.

4) yes and possibly yes sound like a clever way around the situation.

just an idea, waste no want to have you thought about asking round or asking if local Thai from the orphanage would go ask those street vendors or local restaurants if they would donate any food they may be about to throw out? check if it is good first..then send to orphanage to reheat.

Would nt be too bad an idea if any teachers out there in your area could/would start a little donate food to orphanage day.

You know, with the number of orphanages here, I know where I would be sending some of that vast pile of rice the government has stockpiled up!