Volunteering, Legality and Much Confusion

[junglechef]

Over time I've heard a lots about the need for a Work Permit to do any Volunteer Work here.

Say a group of foreigners who just go and cook at an orphanage every now and then. They go shopping with their own money and buy food and cook on premise and serve the kids. For the purpose of this example let's say they don't have government permission including any paperwork that allows them to.

Is this technically legal?

If not where is the line drawn? Can you cook only occasionally as long as it's not a regular thing? Or only if it's a one-off thing?

If not can you shop and donate the food? What about cooking at one's home and dropping off the food? Or can you only donate the food? Or only money?

For clarity I assume the definition of work has nothing to do with pay but is as stated in the dictionary:

"exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor;toil."

[JohnC]

As I understand it legally you need a work permit, however, there is a difference between someone who comes to thailand to work for an NGO as a volunteer as opposed to say someone who lives here occasionally helping the needy with food or gifts etc. I have been involved with such schemes in the ten years I have been here, we have stood with the mayor and city hall officials handing out food parcels to the poor, I have also been involved in fundraising for a number of children's homes. Despite what many might say the Thai authorities understand the difference and welcome the help these acts of kindness give. What they don't want is NGO s bringing in volunteers from abroad to save them paying wages for full time job, as with all things here there are exceptions of course.

Just my humble opinion and others will disagree.

[khwaibah]

I agree with JohnC. I have been down this road with donations of time and money with schools. We had a private school just around the corner from us that took care of homeless children. Saw this school grow from 50 to 300 kids. My wife Buddha bless her decided that this would be OUR charity. It started with just the two of us but ended up with another 12 or so couples donating time, and money. Every two months lunch was bought and catered we did the work of serving. Avery close relationship developed between us the school and the local officials.

Edited February 27, 2015 by khwaibah

[Tywais]

One of the things they look at and adds points when applying for permanent residency is the applicants activity in charities and community service.

[junglechef]

One of the things they look at and adds points when applying for permanent residency is the applicants activity in charities and community service.

Could this be a double edged sword if it is illegal to do this kind of community service?

[mamborobert]

And yet we have Khaosod yesterday (and several other newspapers and social media pages praising a German tourist who has come here on holidays for the last six years (and this time brought tools) who has been gardening, cleaning phone boxes, clearing rubbish off the side of the road......and gaining a lot of praise for it.

I always looked at "work" (paid, paid in kind, or otherwise) as being something where you were not taking the job of a Thai, or being volunteered in such a way (through a series of people or placements) that took the potential for creation of a job of a Thai. Also of course it should be incidental to the purpose of your main visa not your major purpose. This the way that a lot of western immigration authorities look at it.....Having said that TIT.

On another thread now we have NancyL giving a three hour presentation on Lessons Learned at the End of Life....associated with Lannacarenet and this too seems ok.

http://www.khaosod.co.th/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRReU5Ea3hOemcwTWc9PQ==&sectionid=

Edited February 27, 2015 by mamborobert

[uptheos]

"They go shopping with their own money and buy food and cook on premise and serve the kids".

I doubt this would be a problem, but if any of the kids went down with stomach problems.................

[junglechef]

"They go shopping with their own money and buy food and cook on premise and serve the kids".

I doubt this would be a problem, but if any of the kids went down with stomach problems.................

Isn't that volunteering? Or am I misunderstanding this? So one does not need a special permit to do charity volunteer work?

[uptheos]

"They go shopping with their own money and buy food and cook on premise and serve the kids".

I doubt this would be a problem, but if any of the kids went down with stomach problems.................

Isn't that volunteering? Or am I misunderstanding this? So one does not need a special permit to do charity volunteer work?

Look, you know as well as me that this topic has been done to death, gone round in circles and still there are thousands of questions that will asked. Whenever someone has the absolute, definitive answer give me a call.

[junglechef]

I am asking in earnest for a specific reason so all those who would like to contribute I would appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks, JC

[bangmai]

I agree with this article sating that volunteer tourism is a complete racket: http://www.chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=865 In fact it is a big racket, and likely big enough to draw the attention of the authorities, who aren't getting a big enough slice of the hot dog.

[uptheos]

It needs someone to get inside the minds of Immigration and Labour Law bods, who make the rules and try to extract from them EXACTLY what it is that makes it difficult for them to allow a person to volunteer. Considering most volunteer work is either something a Thai wouldn't do (paid or unpaid) or couldn't do because they don't know how, it's all a bit confusing.

Once that mindset has been cracked all will be revealed and until then we will continue to go around in circles.

[Dante99]

Junglechief is asking things like "is it technically legal" and "where do they draw the line" which can only be answered by a lawyer and to what end? It is what you can do that matters.

Donatating things including prepared food is fine. Most likely cooking occasionally at a school, orphanage or wat would be no problem. I doubt there has ever been a issue for a foreigner doing this in cultural sensitive way but if you are worried which you seem to be, why not just do the cooking at home?

If you need absoulte rules and lines, this is not the place for you.

Lets get real. Prosecution for giving to the needy?

It is a whole different thing if you are going to make a big deal about your fantastic cooking or otherwise draw attention to yourself, the great farang chief.

[CWMcMurray]

I think there is no 'real answer'.... It is ok unless some one decided they don't like you for any reason and they have the power or know some one with the power to destroy your life by arresting and deporting you...

Many of the regulations and laws are like this.... All the flexibility is given to the government to decide every situation on a case by case basis...

There is NO black and white... Only grey .... And that allows for corruption and abuse of power in some cases

[treehouse_ monkey]

I agree with this article sating that volunteer tourism is a complete racket: http://www.chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=865 In fact it is a big racket, and likely big enough to draw the attention of the authorities, who aren't getting a big enough slice of the hot dog.

I do not believe many of the people out here are concerned with running a for profit business. It is true for some and we know who they are and avoid them like the plague. I had my career and made my money for thirteen years in the Middle East. We have raised 69 impoverished, abandoned and orphaned children here in Thailand and paid for the university studies for 14 of them who chose to seek higher education. In the entire time here neither my wife or myself have taken a slary. My car is 17 years old and yet is still functional and this is where I decided to dedicate the remainder of my life. I came here in 1998 and have no inention to return to my homeland. Until I was 60 I worked at the local university. I have an earned doctorate and a long career in education management and school teaching. We have volunteers come from time to time and many do get with the program and invest themselves in the work they do making lives better for children.

[Mapguy]

Yes, as someone put it, there is some confusion. A Western legalistic approach to this question is not altogether helpful.

Look at the regulation! Volunteering is a form of work. For extensive volunteer activity, there is an appropriate visa. In Chiang Mai, the "Labor Office" will approve short-term activity.

One has to look at the nature of "work," incidental or not, compensated or not.

Some years ago some musicians were busted in Chiang Mai for working without a work permit because they weren't just "sitting in" to play music as visitors in a jazz club, they were basically being compensated for their music by the club (apparently they also played at other clubs, too) --- and an envious competitor of the venue apparently filed a complaint. Some visitors who were just "sitting in" were not prosecuted although they had to be taken along with the really naughty ones when the place was "raided."

Then, to focus on volunteer "work," has anyone actually know of a long-stay retiree being fined, jailed or deported for clearly benevolent socially-conscious non-profitable activity? If so, let's hear about it.

To lessen any possible confusion, I am NOT writing about some basically commercial enterprises (some masking as not-for-profits) in Thailand whose business is to charge volunteers for short-term activities. The above is written basically about the situation of long-stay retirees who have landed in Chiang Mai and are looking for something useful to do to help others.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Mapguy

[junglechef]

Junglechief is asking things like "is it technically legal" and "where do they draw the line" which can only be answered by a lawyer and to what end? It is what you can do that matters.

Donatating things including prepared food is fine. Most likely cooking occasionally at a school, orphanage or wat would be no problem. I doubt there has ever been a issue for a foreigner doing this in cultural sensitive way but if you are worried which you seem to be, why not just do the cooking at home?

If you need absoulte rules and lines, this is not the place for you.

Lets get real. Prosecution for giving to the needy?

It is a whole different thing if you are going to make a big deal about your fantastic cooking or otherwise draw attention to yourself, the great farang chief.

I thought you were going to contribute something worthwhile in the beginning but end up just making (wrong) assumptions and then telling me where not to live my life and then try to make fun of me.

Why oh why do I even come to this forum looking for help to help some people who want to help other people?

Should I start every post requesting sincere people to please only reply? Or have they all been scared away from TV already?

Guess I should have asked for positive contributions but hardly expect that would work with the men/children of TV.

[NoshowJones]

It needs someone to get inside the minds of Immigration and Labour Law bods, who make the rules and try to extract from them EXACTLY what it is that makes it difficult for them to allow a person to volunteer. Considering most volunteer work is either something a Thai wouldn't do (paid or unpaid) or couldn't do because they don't know how, it's all a bit confusing.

Once that mindset has been cracked all will be revealed and until then we will continue to go around in circles.

Thailand just does not want Farangs doing jobs that Thais can do, and that is understandable, I think the way they see it is, some Farangs would do work without a work permit, then use the excuse that they are not getting paid when they are, how is anyone going to prove this?

I do think a solution can be found to allow volunteers like the OP who are willing to work for nothing, like automatic deportation for those caught, after finishing a prison sentence, for working without a work permit, and tough financial punishments for Thais who pay any Farangs for working for them without a work permit.

But again if we had these laws, as usual there would be very little enforcement, and that would make it the Thai authorities to blame.

[junglechef]

Thank you for the plausible reasoning possum1931.

I would like to mention (again) that I am not volunteering.

So to avoid any more confusion, not that it changes my original inquiry, but I have been asked for assistance by a rather new resident whom would like to give back, actually let me just quote him:

"I'm looking for to feel that I'm giving something in a world where I have yet to find my purpose, and still, am getting a lot from it."

It's wonderful that a member of the younger generation has this urge and also the intelligence and respect to search for the right way to do it in a place that he is a guest.

So as we both admit that it would be prudent to understand the rules first before looking for a possible opportunity for him I came to TV looking for some answers.

Thanks, JC

[Mapguy]

Hey, no one seems to have perp reports to share yet of retirees getting marched off and sent home for doing volunteer work ?!

Edited February 27, 2015 by Mapguy

[rethaier]

A work permit is required.

[Jaggg88]

"They go shopping with their own money and buy food and cook on premise and serve the kids".

I doubt this would be a problem, but if any of the kids went down with stomach problems.................

Isn't that volunteering? Or am I misunderstanding this? So one does not need a special permit to do charity volunteer work?

There is no definitive answer but someone who just does some ad hoc charity help is different to someone on a charity's payroll/volunteer list.

[NancyL]

Some great input here. As Mapguy said, we've got to stop looking at this issue in the western, legalistic, black & white way of viewing the issue because that's how the Thai officials see things. To me, you have to look at an activity within its context and framework. So the question isn't just "what's the activity?", but also, "why", "who benefits", "where is it performed", "how often", "who invited you to do it", "who does it with you", "who are you making upset by doing the activity", "is there any possible way that you're personally benefiting by doing this", "are you an upstanding person who leads a good life -- i.e. has a valid visa (of some sort, doesn't have to be a business visa), no debts, adequate means of support, well groomed, no brushes with the law" etc, etc.

As another person pointed out, you shouldn't be doing an activity that a Thai person can be paid to do. That's a ground rule with Lanna Care Net -- I seriously doubt anyone would question me sitting around today talking to 50 foreigners about what happens in Chiang Mai when you get into serious medical difficulty or at the end of life. Yet some would call that "volunteer work" But it would be a problem if I were driving 50 foreigners around to their doctor appointments. I'd be taking work away from tuk-tuk drivers!

Edited February 27, 2015 by NancyL

[Bill97]

Hey, no one seems to have perp reports to share yet of retirees getting marched off and sent home for doing volunteer work ?!

Never heard of any issues, retirees or anyone else.

Don't think so but ......Anyone?

[dotpoom]

Sorry if I'm off topic here.....but I often wonder why we hear of so much great work being done for the benefit of children, they seem to get a lot of attention and be well looked after.....and hardly, if ever, do we hear of charitable work being done on behalf of the aged and infirm members in the senior citizens bracket.... Could it be spread around more evenly I wonder?

[bangmai]

" The above is written basically about the situation of long-stay retirees who have landed in Chiang Mai and are looking for something useful to do to help others."

-Mapguy

But, JungleChef says he was approached by a younger person about this, which to me doesn't indicate a retiree.

As long as people are willing to pay to volunteer, work in grey areas, teach without WP, and push the envelope in general; Immigration has no reason to add clarity to the rules. It seems like a boycott of all illegal volunteering activity would be the only way to get them to clarify the rules, as well as people shouldn't be teaching until they're 100% legal (about 1/4 are).....it would hurt in the short term, but it may be the only way to get a long term solution. I frequently see stuff that needs to be done, that I could easily do for free...like the big piece of smashed glass at one of the bus stops. A huge pile of broken shards has been laying there on the footpath for four months. There is even a cop box 150 meters from it...I could clean it up in 15 minutes.......If they saw me; there would be a confrontation....that I really don't need. So the pile of glass is a new fixture on Suthep Rd.. Who knows? Maybe it is superstition or something, besides common sense.

Edited February 27, 2015 by bangmai

[Loaded]

" The above is written basically about the situation of long-stay retirees who have landed in Chiang Mai and are looking for something useful to do to help others."

-Mapguy

But, JungleChef says he was approached by a younger person about this, which to me doesn't indicate a retiree.

As long as people are willing to pay to volunteer, work in grey areas, teach without WP, and push the envelope in general; Immigration has no reason to add clarity to the rules. It seems like a boycott of all illegal volunteering activity would be the only way to get them to clarify the rules, as well as people shouldn't be teaching until they're 100% legal (about 1/4 are).....it would hurt in the short term, but it may be the only way to get a long term solution. I frequently see stuff that needs to be done, that I could easily do for free...like the big piece of smashed glass at one of the bus stops. A huge pile of broken shards has been laying there on the footpath for four months. There is even a cop box 150 meters from it...I could clean it up in 15 minutes.......If they saw me; there would be a confrontation....that I really don't need. So the pile of glass is a new fixture on Suthep Rd.. Who knows? Maybe it is superstition or something, besides common sense.

as usual, nonsense.

[bangmai]

" The above is written basically about the situation of long-stay retirees who have landed in Chiang Mai and are looking for something useful to do to help others."

-Mapguy

But, JungleChef says he was approached by a younger person about this, which to me doesn't indicate a retiree.

As long as people are willing to pay to volunteer, work in grey areas, teach without WP, and push the envelope in general; Immigration has no reason to add clarity to the rules. It seems like a boycott of all illegal volunteering activity would be the only way to get them to clarify the rules, as well as people shouldn't be teaching until they're 100% legal (about 1/4 are).....it would hurt in the short term, but it may be the only way to get a long term solution. I frequently see stuff that needs to be done, that I could easily do for free...like the big piece of smashed glass at one of the bus stops. A huge pile of broken shards has been laying there on the footpath for four months. There is even a cop box 150 meters from it...I could clean it up in 15 minutes.......If they saw me; there would be a confrontation....that I really don't need. So the pile of glass is a new fixture on Suthep Rd.. Who knows? Maybe it is superstition or something, besides common sense.

as usual, nonsense.

As usual, someone has objection, without alternative or specifics. Perhaps, someone has a burgeoning relationship with an orphan.

[Loaded]

" The above is written basically about the situation of long-stay retirees who have landed in Chiang Mai and are looking for something useful to do to help others."

-Mapguy

But, JungleChef says he was approached by a younger person about this, which to me doesn't indicate a retiree.

As long as people are willing to pay to volunteer, work in grey areas, teach without WP, and push the envelope in general; Immigration has no reason to add clarity to the rules. It seems like a boycott of all illegal volunteering activity would be the only way to get them to clarify the rules, as well as people shouldn't be teaching until they're 100% legal (about 1/4 are).....it would hurt in the short term, but it may be the only way to get a long term solution. I frequently see stuff that needs to be done, that I could easily do for free...like the big piece of smashed glass at one of the bus stops. A huge pile of broken shards has been laying there on the footpath for four months. There is even a cop box 150 meters from it...I could clean it up in 15 minutes.......If they saw me; there would be a confrontation....that I really don't need. So the pile of glass is a new fixture on Suthep Rd.. Who knows? Maybe it is superstition or something, besides common sense.

as usual, nonsense.

As usual, someone has objection, without alternative or specifics. Perhaps, someone has a burgeoning relationship with an orphan.

You are sick.

[ggt]

Kudos to you and your fellow volunteers...I have given to local Christian churches who are legally involved in the same activities you have described...almost everything a foreigner does in Thailand can be considered work and the Thais are very vigilant in reporting your suspicious activities...so far a work permit is not needed to go to the toilet...unless you carry your computer with you...