Taking Thai mrs to France?

[jacky54]

what does she need as I am Brit national, does she need a visa or one of those shengen visas?, and whatever are they as difficult to get as one for the UK? Don't think would even bother applying for a UK visa again.

[Atkinsos]

Currently doing this now, put in the application last week. Im UK but were not married so it makes things much more difficult.

For helpfull assistance contact TLS Contact visa center Bkk, 02696 3888 take option 2 then 6 to be put through to an English speaking assistant. Tell them your situation & they will lead you to the correct visa to apply for. 99% will be for a 90 day Schengen visa. (All visa applications for France MUST be done online then a visit in person through TLS Contact).

You can go into their web site, select documents & you will see the different visa options.

The easiest by far is for a 'Family private visit', then 'EU citizen's spouse', this visa is free and requires 50% less hoops to jump through than any other application. Do a search on, 'Directive 2004/38/EC . EU freedom of movement'.

On Thai visa you can look up 'Schengen visa, FAQ when applying from Thailand', by Donutz, excellent info in this post on Schengen visa applications.

It all depends on what your wanting. A weekend in Paris or ..... whatever.

[theoldgit]

As the wife as a British national the application should fairly painless as she qualifies for entry as the spouse of an EU national under the Freedom of Movement Directive, this of course doesn't apply if she seeks a visa for the UK.

Under the directive all she has to do is prove you are married or a long term partner, and are either travelling together or meeting up in the EU. She doesn't need to provide details of finances, insurance or accommodation, the visa should be issued free of charge.

That said the French, unlike the Dutch, aren't particularly user friendly and may not stick to the rules, they certainly don't make the information readably available on their website. The generic Schengen application form makes it clear that certain requirements don't need to be met for the spouse of an EU national.

I would be inclined to contact TLScontact and seek clarification, specifically asking about the requirements for the spouse of an EU national, indicate that the application is being made in the auspices of the EU Freedom of movement directive. I have to say that my experience of the staff at TLScontact isn't as positive as the previous poster.

[Atkinsos]

Regarding the 'Long term partner' bit, It really doesnt work, we are unmarried but have lived together here in Thailand for 4yrs and also have a daughter together who ive got a UK passport. I did all the documentation bit showing a long term loving relationship, photos etc. They wernt interested, it was a marriage certificate or forget it. I even wrote to SOLVIT who confirmed that it is at the countries discretion to what they consider a civil durable relationship. Their suggestion was to just get her feet on the ground in France & then walk into the local Marie & apply to stay. TLS didnt even want our daughters birth cirtificate showing both our names. BUT only last week when my partner went to apply for the 90 day Schengen visa as they said was the 'only way' did they then say to her .... 'you could have applied under the freedom of movement directive for free if you had brought along the birth cirtificate translation notorised by the British Embassy'.The problem now is how to get this done as I cant find anything on the Embassy website to say they will do this. If your married as is 'Jacky54', it should be a painless exercise.

Maybe this is a sign ... time to get married!

[theoldgit]

Regarding the 'Long term partner' bit, It really doesn't work

It can work, but it really depends on how the individual consulate/country, interprets the rules, SOLVIT have reinforced that view.

As I indicated the French aren't particularly user friendly, unlike the Dutch.

Likewise my partner and I aren't married and neither do we have any children, she applied to the Netherlands Consulate last month for a visa under the Freedom of Movement Directive to allow us to have short stopover in Amsterdam on our return from the UK next month. In her application she indicated that we wanted to spend a few days in Paris later in the year.

Following advice in an email exchange with their consular team, she supplied no more that a copy of our joint lease for a condo in Bangkok and flight tickets to confirm we were travelling together with her application. The Netherlands Consulate issued her with a multi entry visa valid until May 2016, her passport expires in August 2016, the application was turned round in five days, not bad considering they are processed in Kuala Lumpur.

However, as you rightly point out, Jacky54 is married so it should be a painless exercise.

[Atkinsos]

Well, 'Oldgit', better to deal with the Dutch than the French. Ive just come across what could be a new issue for 'Jacky54', myself & anybody else applying for France under this directive. I have just finished speaking with TLS who I informed I was married (As it is now very likely that we will tie the knot in the coming weeks). The Thai marriage certificate & a notorised translation is not good enough. The certificate must be legalised by the British Embassy. Again I called the Embassy, you can no longer register marriages their & nor will they notorise a marriage certificate.

TLS informed that without this we must still apply for a normal 90 day Schengen & all the other requirements that go along with it.

[theoldgit]

You do realise that you have every right to deal directly with the French visa section and bypass TLS altogether? TLS have no say as to what is or what isn't required and take no part in the decision making process.

That said the French are a pretty obstinate lot and are not known for sticking to the rules.

[KevWaters]

Old Git, did you pay a fee for the Shenzhen Visa? I am thinking about going to the UK for 6 months on the Family Visitor Visa with my Son (has an English Passport) and his mum (unmarried). I would also like to take them to Santorini or Spain if possible. A similar situation to you.

[theoldgit]

Old Git, did you pay a fee for the Shenzhen Visa? I am thinking about going to the UK for 6 months on the Family Visitor Visa with my Son (has an English Passport) and his mum (unmarried). I would also like to take them to Santorini or Spain if possible. A similar situation to you.

No we didn't pay a fee and neither did we have to jump through hoops regarding documentation.

However we applied via the Dutch authorities and whilst the rules are supposed to be the same throughout the Schengen Area, some Consulates are more relaxed than others. The Dutch staff were particularly helpful but I understand the Spanish are not so, I must stress that I have no first hand experience of dealing with the Spanish authorities.

[CharlieH]

In a similar situation, my wife and i wanted to stop over in Helsinki Finland, very straight forward, no fee, no issues, minimal paperwork.

Extract from email:

The answers to your questions are as follows:

As your wife is a family member of EU citizen

1. A flight booking is not requested. The same applies to accommodation.

2. A travel insurance is not requested (only recommended)

3. An invitation letter is not requested (only recommended)

4. Your wife can lodge her application at the Embassy.

[Donutz]

(All visa applications for France MUST be done online then a visit in person through TLS Contact).

You can go into their web site, select documents & you will see the different visa options.

The easiest by far is for a 'Family private visit', then 'EU citizen's spouse', this visa is free and requires 50% less hoops to jump through than any other application. Do a search on, 'Directive 2004/38/EC . EU freedom of movement'.

On Thai visa you can look up 'Schengen visa, FAQ when applying from Thailand', by Donutz, excellent info in this post on Schengen visa applications.

It all depends on what your wanting. A weekend in Paris or ..... whatever.

- TLS is entirely optional, the French MUST give direct access (contact, making appointment, handing in the application) if you prefer and the French must inform all applicants about the right of direct access. Especially EU/EEA spouse applications. Not doing so would be a violation of the Schengen Visa Code to which al member states are bound.

- The EU/EEA application should be the correct and most easiest route: leaving all questions with a * blank, the visa application being entirely free, with minimum hassle and handled ASAP (within 2 weeks). The French aren't exactly known for their good service for family/friends visa though (others tell me that business visa applications are handled very smoothly and dealt with in about 2 days as they wish to attract business).

- Thanks for the positive comment on the stickied Schengen FAQ.

Edit

Regarding the 'Long term partner' bit, It really doesnt work, we are unmarried but have lived together here in Thailand for 4yrs and also have a daughter together who ive got a UK passport. I did all the documentation bit showing a long term loving relationship, photos etc. They wernt interested, it was a marriage certificate or forget it. I even wrote to SOLVIT who confirmed that it is at the countries discretion to what they consider a civil durable relationship. Their suggestion was to just get her feet on the ground in France & then walk into the local Marie & apply to stay. TLS didnt even want our daughters birth cirtificate showing both our names.

Indeed it's up to memberstates what is a durable relationship, some (most?) don't accept any non-married partners at all. But with these type of more rare questions it's best to contact the embassy directly. TLS (and VFS) are just fancy paperpushers who redirect applications/files/appointments to the embassy. Perhaps good for answering very simple questions but on this forum and others you'll often hear about them giving wrong advice if it isn't something the TLS/VFS staff can copy/paste directly from a FAQ. So I find these service-providers quite pointless and a waste of money.

The certificate must be legalised by the British Embassy. Again I called the Embassy, you can no longer register marriages their & nor will they notorise a marriage certificate.

TLS informed that without this we must still apply for a normal 90 day Schengen & all the other requirements that go along with it.

Embassies could ask for legalisation etc. to confirm that a marriage is authentic but they cannot demand that the marriage is registrated in the home country of the EU spouse. According to the directive one simple needs to be genuinely and legally married, if the marriage is registered in 1 or both countries does not matter. Some embassies ask for fancy stamps and registration of the marriage in the EU so that they are more certain that it's a genuine marriage. However if you cannot meet this demands there is no legal reason for the embassy to denie a visa application over " not being registrated". They can only deny if you commit fraud, cheat, lie or are a danger to the general public.

More info in the embassy handbook for issueing visas, which has an entire part on EU/EEA applications.

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/index_en.htm --> http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/docs/20140709_visa_code_handbook_consolidated_en.pdf

And the directive on which all this is based:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF

Which makes it quite clear that you need to proof that you are family (read: married), travel together and ID the both of you.

If the Frenc (and Spaniards) applied common sense and service they'd know this. A registrated marriage in the EU national home country makes it easier to confirm that it's a real marriage I suppose but it cannot be the case that they deny the visa If it's not registrated. That would mean that a couple living in TH and the EU national not having been back home for many years and having no intention of ever returning or telling his home country about the marriage would not be eligible for a free visa.. BS.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Donutz

[jimn]

Regarding the 'Long term partner' bit, It really doesn't work

It can work, but it really depends on how the individual consulate/country, interprets the rules, SOLVIT have reinforced that view.

As I indicated the French aren't particularly user friendly, unlike the Dutch.

Likewise my partner and I aren't married and neither do we have any children, she applied to the Netherlands Consulate last month for a visa under the Freedom of Movement Directive to allow us to have short stopover in Amsterdam on our return from the UK next month. In her application she indicated that we wanted to spend a few days in Paris later in the year.

Following advice in an email exchange with their consular team, she supplied no more that a copy of our joint lease for a condo in Bangkok and flight tickets to confirm we were travelling together with her application. The Netherlands Consulate issued her with a multi entry visa valid until May 2016, her passport expires in August 2016, the application was turned round in five days, not bad considering they are processed in Kuala Lumpur.

However, as you rightly point out, Jacky54 is married so it should be a painless exercise.

Oldgit

I seem to be having problems with the Dutch. I had the e mail exchange below with them. What documents did you actually supply please?

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From: BAN-CA <[email protected]>

Subject: RE: Schegan Visa for Thai Wife

Good morning,

In the attachment I have included the application form for your convenience.

In case you are travelling with your spouse to the Netherlands then your spouse may be eligible for the accelerated visa procedure.

Documents that need to be submitted are;

-the application form

-2 copies of holder-page of passport of applicant

-copy of holder-page of EU citizen

-translated and legalized marriage certificate

-proof of travel to the Netherlands

-proof of stay in the Netherlands

-insurance coverage over the period of stay in the Netherlands

Upon assessment of the file additional documents may be requested for

You can find all information regarding visa requirements and how to make an appointment for a visa application on the website http://www.vfsglobal.com/netherlands/thailand/ or http://thailand.nlambassade.org/locations/ambassade-van-thailand-bangkok.html. Also the visa application form is available on this website.

If you still have any inquiries after reading the visa requirements, you can call the call center on +66 2 118 7003

Kind regards

F. Deveci

Deputy Head of Consular and Internal Affairs

Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands

15 Soi Tonson, Ploenchit Road, Lumpini, Pathumwan, Bangkok 10330

T: +66 (0) 23095200

F: +66 (0) 23095205

W: www.netherlandsembassy.in.th

FB: Embassy of the Netherlands in Thailand

To: BAN-CA

Subject: Schegan Visa for Thai Wife

Hello

I am a UK citizen, I have recently married my wife and have officially registered the marriage in Thailand, we have a Thai marriage certificate. We live in Thailand

In May my wife will be travelling to the UK for a holiday of 4.5 months. During this time we wish to visit Europe. I am planning one or two things. We may drive over via the ferry or we may fly direct to Amsterdam. So that my plans are flexible I think it would be wise to keep my options open and apply to the Netherlands where I have many friends and may spend the most time.

I wish my wife to exercise the rights of free movement of a family member of an EU/EEA citizen under Directive 2004/38/EC. I understand that she will be eligible for the accelerated free visa procedure

Please can you tell me what documents you require. She wishes to apply direct to the embassy and will need an appointment. My wife is in Bangkok on Monday 9th and Tuesday 10th, would it be possible then?

So far I have, I would be grateful if you can tell me if they are enough

(1) The application form

(2) The marriage certificate registered and in Thai (not translated or legalised by the local ministry of foreign affairs

(3) Flight reservation to the UK on 14th May returning 30th September for us both

(4) Passports in the same name

Thanks in advance

[Donutz]

ToG had contacted directly with Kuala Lumpur, where the Dutch visa's are processed. I guess that the embassy in NL forgot about the requirements since this task of judging over visa's was taken away from them. Or they copy/pasted the wrong information. Indeed your documentation should be enough. The directive and EU Handbook are quite clear:

3.6. Supporting documents
In order to prove that the applicant has the right to be issued with an entry visa under the Directive, he must establish that he is a
beneficiary of the Directive. This is done by presenting documents relevant for the purposes of the three questions referred to above, i.e. proving that:
• there is an EU citizen from whom the visa applicant can derive any rights;
• the visa applicant is a family member (e.g. a marriage cert
ificate, birthcertificate, proof of dependency, serious health grounds,
durability of partnerships ...) and his identity (passport); and
• the visa applicant accompanies or joins an EU citizen (e.g. a proof that the EU
citizen already resides in the host Member State or a confirmation that the EU
citizen will travel to the host Member State).

It is an established principle of EU law in the area of free movement that visa applicants have
the right of choice of the documentary evidence by which they wish to prove that they are
covered by the Directive (i.e. of the family link, dependency ...) . Member States may,
however, ask for specific documents (e.g. a marriage certificate as the means of proving the
existence of marriage), but should not refuse other means of proof.

For further information in relation to the documentation, see Commission Communication
COM (2009) 313 final 22.

3.7. Burden of proof
The burden of proof applicable in the framework of the visa application under the Directive is
twofold:
Firstly, it is up to the visa applicant to prove that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. He must
be able to provide documentary evidence foreseen above as he must be able to present evidence to support his claim.

If he fails to provide such evidence, the consulate can conclude that the applicant is not
entitled to the specific treatment under the Directive. Additional documents may not be required regarding the purpose of travel and means of subsistence (e.g. proof of accommodation, proof of cost of travelling),which is reflected in the exemption for family members of EU citizens from filling in the following fields of the visa application form:

Source: http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/docs/20140709_visa_code_handbook_consolidated_en.pdf (from the EU Home Affairs page).

You could quote the handbook to this staff member and inform that you will submit:

- The application form (filled out, skipping the * questions)

- 2 passport photo's

- Pasport and copies of the applicant

- Copy of the EU passport (show the original at the counter if you wish)

- The marriage certificate (if you wish translated into English either officially or a self written translation, you could supply more such as certification if you wish but youo should be fine if you cannot or won't, aslong as you make clear you are legally and genuinly married!!)

- Something that shows the Thai will travel with the UK citizen to NL. A letter very much like what you wrote in your e-mail will do but if you feel like it you are free to submit more evidence that make it clear that you will head to NL (and UK) together).

- Are unable (and rather not spent the time and money) on providing official translations and certification from the UK embassy which are not stricly required under the directive.

ToG told me privately that he was told by the Dutch embassy (same person you are now mailing with) that an appointment isn't required, can lodge any day Monday - Thursday from 14.00-15.00.

I believe ToG included copies of his flight to the UK (and NL?) as extra evidence. ToG didn't include a marriage certificate but evidence of a durable relationship by providing a copy of their joint lease (a relationship is durable of you lived 6+ months together according to the Dutch instructions).

Oh and the Dutch have a manual of their own for embassy/visa staf but it's pretty much a copy of the EU handbook in it's contents, ofcourse customized to fit how the staff should process correctly in the Dutch computer system etc. This handbook thus, like the EU one, does not tell staff to request certification, official translations, insurance etc.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Donutz

[Donutz]

This is a what the Dutch internal handbook says on EU/EEA, and which has been copy/pasted on the embassy website:

Family members of EU/EEA citizens who exercise their right of free movement:

Directive Directive 2004/38/EC governs visa exemptions and visa facilitation for family members of EU/EEA and Swiss nationals who are exercising (or have exercised) their right of free movement.
An EU/EEA national can be said to be exercising his/her right of free movement if he/she moves to or resides in a member state other than that of which he/she is a national.

A Dutch national who resides in the Netherlands is not exercising his right of free movement. But if that Dutch national has recently resided and/or worked in an EU/EEA country other than the Netherlands, he has exercised his right of free movement.
Under European Court of Justice case law, a family member from a third country who is required to obtain a visa owing to his/her nationality may not be required as a condition for visa exemption or facilitation to be already legally resident in the EU/EEA or Switzerland. It does not matter when the family relationship began. Regardless of where the third country family member resides and when the relationship with the EU/EEA national began, the third country family member will be eligible for the accelerated free visa procedure if he/she can prove objectively that:

1. he/she is a family member of an EU/EEA national; and
2.that EU/EEA national is travelling to or is residing in another member state than that of which he/she is a national; and
3. he/she is accompanying the EU/EEA national or planning to join him/her.

The accelerated procedure means that the applicant need not answer the questions on the Schengen visa application form marked with an asterisk (*).
Under article 5 of Directive 2004/38/EC, these applicants have to prove their own identity, the identity of the EU/EEA national concerned, the family relationship with the EU/EEA national, and the fact that the EU/EEA national is exercising his/her right of free movement. To qualify for an accelerated visa free of charge, applicants also have to show that they are travelling with the EU/EEA national or are travelling to join him/her.

From: http://thailand.nlembassy.org/services/consular-services/visa/visa-application-in-thailand.html

The KL office can be reached via asiaconsular (at) minbuza (dot) nl. Perhaps you could e-mail your respons to both the BKK embassy and the KL office.

[theoldgit]

Yes, Donutz is spot on with how we applied for the visa, in fact it was he who advised me.

As he says I communicated with the team in KL, and only with Bangkok for details of how to bypass VFS.

The KL team said they wanted proof of our relationship, we're not married, and evidence that we were travelling together.

They advised that a copy of our joint lease on our condo would work, we supplied copies of our flight tickets as proof we were travelling together, and a copy of my UK Passport.

My girlfriend didn't provide a copy of her annual travel insurance, details of the hotel we had booked in Amsterdam or indeed details of her finances.

She has had two previous Schengen Visas and two previous visit visas from the UK, her current UK visa is a two year one.

I fired off an email to their processing centre, they responded very quickly with their advice, they even suggested I include a copy of our email chain with the application.

I think Donutz is correct in his assumption that the lady in BKK copied and pasted a reply, though I did find her very helpful over another, unrelated, issue.

The Dutch staff actually respond to emails pretty quickly, as a Brit used to dealing with my own Embassy I found this to be a novel experience.

[jimn]

Donutz and TOG thanks so much for the advice. Just 2 more points Id like to ask.

(1) As I will be in the UK I will be travelling to the NL by road (via ferry from UK). Passing through France and Belgium where I will spend some time. There are no road border controls in this part of Europe anymore. How can I prove to the Dutch that I am actually going to visit the NL? I have deliberately not thought about applying to the French because of the well known problems with them.

(2) Is the fact that my wife and I are travelling together by air into the EU The UK sufficient for them if I send copies of the flight booking?

Thanks in advance

Jim

[theoldgit]

We're flying so just provided Easyjet tickets from Gatwick to Schiphol and then Schiphol to Bangkok, it was more as evidence that we're travelling together.

We weren't asked for and neither did we supply details of our accommodation in Amsterdam.

But we did include a short, joint, covering letter outlining our trip, and as I say they issued the visa without question.