Capital punishment concerns raised over Thai backpackers' murder case

[boomerangutang]

The original suspects were Burmese. The next were farang. The third set were Thai.

To claim that the Thai suspects were the original suspects is a lie that gets trotted out to make a bogus assertion. It ignores the fact that the investigation looked at several sets of suspects and eliminated them when the theory didn't match the facts. Just like you did above. The investigation eliminated 3 sets of people (not just "well to do."

The prime suspects for the first week were Nomsod and Mon, both Thai. I repeat 'P-R-I-M-E' suspects. ...and for good reason. Nomsod was the person who RTP said (and most of us are still saying) was the person in the CCTV acting VERY SUSPICIOUSLY, minutes after the crime. There are a slew of other reasons and evidence he and Mon should still be the PRIME suspects, but those of us looking closely at clues know most of that evidence.

Do I now get the Bt.1,000,000 from Nomsod's father for showing evidence which implicates him? Ah... didn't think so.

It would be interesting to hear what the first head cop (Panya) might say - though maybe not. Because he's a good uniformed team player, he would probably say what his superiors require him to say - even though it's not likely what he truly believes down deep.

[boomerangutang]

It's not a big deal whether it was specifically Panya or his replacement who steered the investigation to solely focus on the Burmese. The fact remains, that from the get-go, the investigation was always looking to indict Burmese migrants. As soon as it was deemed enough evidence was dug up to indict the B2 (evidence that most of us think is contrived), then there was zero focus on those who had been prime suspects for over a week up to that point. ZERO. It was though Mon and Nomsod ceased to exist as far as RTP were concerned. ...except Mon showed up to scowl at the B2 (along with a bevy of other scowling men in uniform, many of whom also had their fists clenched) before and during the farcical reenactment.

If you know who the real killers are you can contact the defense team to offer your witness testimony.

I would venture that if evidence were shown in court which implicated the real killers, the judges wouldn't allow it, because all the judges or prosecution would have to say is: "The two Burmese men are on trial here. No one else." ...and the evidence would be deemed off-topic, moot or diversionary, or whatever legal-speak they use.

You seem to think that claims on social media are in some way evidence. They aren't.

that's addressed to berybert, but I'll respond. Social media has come forth with a lot of useful things which the cops either couldn't find or didn't want to see, because it implicates the H's people. Many photos (including a person of interest with a sharks tooth ring), some diagrams, even a video which demonstrates how the hoe could not have been used to cause the stabbing wounds found on David. Some of social media entries are useless, but many may prove to be useful. It was also social media which proved that it couldn't have been Hannah's phone which was found (planted by RTP) at the B's shack. Immediately after, the RTP changed their claim to say it was 'David's phone' ...which in itself is doubtful.

O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive!

Your tripping over your own feet like stephenterry:

"The fact remains, that from the get-go, the investigation was always looking to indict Burmese migrants.... then there was zero focus on those who had been prime suspects for over a week up to that point. ZERO. It was though Mon and Nomsod ceased to exist as far as RTP were concerned"

It's one or the other, they were after Burmese or they were after Thais (to say nothing of the English that were deemed suspected at some point), you are just making things up as you go and repeatedly ignoring all the times you have been proven wrong about your "facts", oh right, facts are not a big deal to you.

Thanks AleG, you made my point. Yes, both RTP teams were trying mightily to nail Burmese migrants for the crime. The first head cop couldn't get that done, despite DNA testing 9 migrants early on (quite likely the B2 in that group) and none of those Burmese migrants matched. Each day, the bosses in Bkk were getting more disturbed because there were no indictments (of Burmese or other non-Thais) and tourist money-train was threatened.

Even before the replacement head cop was self-instated (he out-ranked Panya, btw) he was likely pulling the puppet strings, as was the self-appointed PM, who expressed opinions on the case on a nearly daily basis. Then the 3 Burmese were hauled in to the not-so-safe 'safe house' One was smart, but the other two broke down under pressure and signed confessions they couldn't read, with no attorneys in the vicinity. Of course, none of us will ever hear or know what transpired in that secluded shack - even if it was recorded. Similarly, we'll never know what was said during the 3 hours that Mon was questioned by RTP. Add to that the CCTV of AC Bar which police didn't care to see, and there are gargantuan amounts of data/clues/evidence which will never come to light.

Asking the RTP to investigate a serious crime is like asking ISIS militia to babysit at the local church kindergarten.

[jdinasia]

Here's what Panya said http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe

"The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred."

So now you aren't just defaming people who were persons of interest, you go on to defame a senior officer who you were defending earlier (until it was pointed out that he actually cleared the people you are obsessed with blami)

Edited March 15, 2015 by jdinasia

[berybert]

Here's what Panya said http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe

"The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred."

So now you aren't just defaming people who were persons of interest, you go on to defame a senior officer who you were defending earlier (until it was pointed out that he actually cleared the people you are obsessed with blami)

So having read that article it says that 2 Thais were the first suspects and not Burmese then foreign. It also states a person of interest was cleared as he had no tattoo.

I don't recall either of the Burmese having a tattoo.

[jdinasia]

Here's what Panya said http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe

"The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred."

So now you aren't just defaming people who were persons of interest, you go on to defame a senior officer who you were defending earlier (until it was pointed out that he actually cleared the people you are obsessed with blami)

So having read that article it says that 2 Thais were the first suspects and not Burmese then foreign. It also states a person of interest was cleared as he had no tattoo.

I don't recall either of the Burmese having a tattoo.

You must be trolling now since someone else has recently posted the link that comments on the initial 3 suspects. (Burmese) The link I posted doesn't say that Thais were the first suspects. It says that there were Thai suspects which were ruled out due to exculpatory evidence.

[berybert]

Here's what Panya said http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe

"The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred."

So now you aren't just defaming people who were persons of interest, you go on to defame a senior officer who you were defending earlier (until it was pointed out that he actually cleared the people you are obsessed with blami)

So having read that article it says that 2 Thais were the first suspects and not Burmese then foreign. It also states a person of interest was cleared as he had no tattoo.

I don't recall either of the Burmese having a tattoo.

You must be trolling now since someone else has recently posted the link that comments on the initial 3 suspects. (Burmese) The link I posted doesn't say that Thais were the first suspects. It says that there were Thai suspects which were ruled out due to exculpatory evidence.

'The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred.

They now will also shift focus to foreign tourists in addition to migrant workers and local people.'

That reads to me like the Thai people were the first suspects. One of whom was ruled out of the investigation because he didn't have a tattoo. So again do either of the Burmese have tattoo's ?

[jdinasia]

Here's what Panya said http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe

"The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred."

So now you aren't just defaming people who were persons of interest, you go on to defame a senior officer who you were defending earlier (until it was pointed out that he actually cleared the people you are obsessed with blami)

So having read that article it says that 2 Thais were the first suspects and not Burmese then foreign. It also states a person of interest was cleared as he had no tattoo.

I don't recall either of the Burmese having a tattoo.

You must be trolling now since someone else has recently posted the link that comments on the initial 3 suspects. (Burmese) The link I posted doesn't say that Thais were the first suspects. It says that there were Thai suspects which were ruled out due to exculpatory evidence.

'The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred.

They now will also shift focus to foreign tourists in addition to migrant workers and local people.'

That reads to me like the Thai people were the first suspects. One of whom was ruled out of the investigation because he didn't have a tattoo. So again do either of the Burmese have tattoo's ?

In post 418 you acknowledge the information in this link...

https://www.dvb.no/news/koh-tao-muder-burmese-migrants-cleared-after-dna-tests-burma-myanmar/44236

Maybe the dates are confusing you? March 18 comes before March 25th

[berybert]

'The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred.

They now will also shift focus to foreign tourists in addition to migrant workers and local people.'

That reads to me like the Thai people were the first suspects. One of whom was ruled out of the investigation because he didn't have a tattoo. So again do either of the Burmese have tattoo's ?

In post 418 you acknowledge the information in this link...

https://www.dvb.no/news/koh-tao-muder-burmese-migrants-cleared-after-dna-tests-burma-myanmar/44236

Maybe the dates are confusing you? March 18 comes before March 25th

So many conflicting reports its hard to know what to believe. What does March 18 - 25 have to do with anything ?

[jdinasia]

The app really needs a block function

[IslandLover]

berybert, on 15 Mar 2015 - 16:00, said:

jdinasia, on 15 Mar 2015 - 15:31, said:

Here's what Panya said http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe

"The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred."

So now you aren't just defaming people who were persons of interest, you go on to defame a senior officer who you were defending earlier (until it was pointed out that he actually cleared the people you are obsessed with blami)

So having read that article it says that 2 Thais were the first suspects and not Burmese then foreign. It also states a person of interest was cleared as he had no tattoo.

I don't recall either of the Burmese having a tattoo.

From the above article:

Since the killings, police have focused on finding Asian men of 170 centimetres tall and with a 40 shoe size, based on surveillance camera footage and footprints on Sairee beach where the couple died.

Neither of the B2 matches those characteristics.

Also, if the article is referring to the "running man" then he doesn't appear to have any tattoos either. I'm beginning to think that the RTP is in possession of CCTV images at the time of the crime which have never been made public.

[berybert]

At the end of the day you can accept what you are told and carry on in life, or you can ask questions and make life worth living.

I choose to ask questions, I am happy to say I have never believed everything I have been told.

If the Burmese are put to death it will change my life not one iota as I am sure it will affect no one else who has commented on this thread.

But isn't it nice to see people who do wrong suffer for what they have done, as opposed to see people suffer who have nothing to do with the wrong doing that has happened.

Edited March 15, 2015 by berybert

[rockingrobin]

berybert, on 15 Mar 2015 - 16:00, said:

jdinasia, on 15 Mar 2015 - 15:31, said:

Here's what Panya said http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe

"The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred."

So now you aren't just defaming people who were persons of interest, you go on to defame a senior officer who you were defending earlier (until it was pointed out that he actually cleared the people you are obsessed with blami)

So having read that article it says that 2 Thais were the first suspects and not Burmese then foreign. It also states a person of interest was cleared as he had no tattoo.

I don't recall either of the Burmese having a tattoo.

From the above article:

Since the killings, police have focused on finding Asian men of 170 centimetres tall and with a 40 shoe size, based on surveillance camera footage and footprints on Sairee beach where the couple died.

Neither of the B2 matches those characteristics.

Also, if the article is referring to the "running man" then he doesn't appear to have any tattoos either. I'm beginning to think that the RTP is in possession of CCTV images at the time of the crime which have never been made public.

The part about the tattoo and cctv suspect doesnt make any sense, I agree that the cctv of the walking or running man doesnt appear to have any tattoo, on the other hand do the RTP have clearer images

However what I find more interesting is this statement published on the 16th September

Pol Maj Gen Kiettiphong said police believe the murder was committed between 3am and 5am yesterday. Pol Maj Gen Kiettiphong said Miller and some male friends arrived in Thailand on Aug 23, while Witheridge and four female friends arrived on Aug 27.

[seahorse]

berybert, on 15 Mar 2015 - 16:00, said:

jdinasia, on 15 Mar 2015 - 15:31, said:

Here's what Panya said http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe

"The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred."

So now you aren't just defaming people who were persons of interest, you go on to defame a senior officer who you were defending earlier (until it was pointed out that he actually cleared the people you are obsessed with blami)

So having read that article it says that 2 Thais were the first suspects and not Burmese then foreign. It also states a person of interest was cleared as he had no tattoo.

I don't recall either of the Burmese having a tattoo.

From the above article:

Since the killings, police have focused on finding Asian men of 170 centimetres tall and with a 40 shoe size, based on surveillance camera footage and footprints on Sairee beach where the couple died.

Neither of the B2 matches those characteristics.

Also, if the article is referring to the "running man" then he doesn't appear to have any tattoos either. I'm beginning to think that the RTP is in possession of CCTV images at the time of the crime which have never been made public.

The part about the tattoo and cctv suspect doesnt make any sense, I agree that the cctv of the walking or running man doesnt appear to have any tattoo, on the other hand do the RTP have clearer images

However what I find more interesting is this statement published on the 16th September

Pol Maj Gen Kiettiphong said police believe the murder was committed between 3am and 5am yesterday. Pol Maj Gen Kiettiphong said Miller and some male friends arrived in Thailand on Aug 23, while Witheridge and four female friends arrived on Aug 27.

I think it's clear that the early reports of this case are more reliable than later reports i.e. before the real culprits had a chance to get their story straight and help police with their enquiries.

For example, in an article from the newspaper we are not allowed to link to, dated the 17th September, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said

"On Sunday foreign tourists attended a party on Sairee beach in front of Ocean View Bungalow, about 30m from where the bodies were found. The bodies of the two victims were found yesterday morning by Myanmar workers while they cleaned the beach.

Tests on DNA samples collected from the body of Hannah Victoria Witheridge, 24, did not match samples taken from the other victim, David William Miller, 24, or Christopher Alan Ware, Miller's friend, or the six Myanmar workers earlier suspected. The DNA of two men was found on the cigarette butt and they matched the DNA found in the semen found inside the female victim' s body. It seemed the two men had shared a cigarette about the time Miller and Witheridge had walked past them.

A hoe from a nearby vegetable garden had been used in the murder.The murderers might have used two weapons. The blood on the hoe was from Witheridge alone. The other weapon was likely to be a metal object used to bludgeon Miller."

• there was a beach party
• six Myanmar workers were the first suspects
• the RTP had the ability to test DNA quickly
• the DNA from those Myanmar workers did not match Hannah's DNA.
• no mention of Hannah's DNA on the cigarette
• David and Hannah had walked past "the two men"
• David's blood was not on the hoe
• there was another weapon

Were the Burmese two included in those first suspects who were cleared?

Who were the two men?

What was the other weapon?

Also from that article although not attributed to Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong, just "the police said" or "A police officer who asked not to be named said"

"The team identified the male victim as David William Miller, 24, a British national. He was found naked with a fractured skull and a deep cut to his neck, believed to have been inflicted with a sharp weapon,"

"found thongs, a pair of black trousers, a T-shirt, a pair of underpants and a used condom at the crime scene."

"A bloodstained hoe and a fertiliser sack were found nearby."

"they were alerted to the brutal murder about an hour before noon yesterday."

"from an initial inspection of the victims' bodies they believed Miller was attacked from behind."

"Witheridge, meanwhile, was dragged away from the first attack spot"

"Investigators who searched Miller's room found a pair of cream-coloured trousers with what they believed were bloodstains on both legs stuffed in Miller's luggage"

• a hoe is not a sharp weapon
• David was wearing light coloured shorts on that night
• whose are the dark trousers that were found and what happened to them?
• what has the fertiliser sack got to do with it?
• why did Koh Tao police take so long to contact Surat Thani police?
• the investigators are obviously from Surat Thani, so it must have been Koh Tao police who put David's trousers there
• how did Koh Tao police get David's trousers?

[Jai Dee]

Another flame post and subsequent replies have been removed from this thread.

[IslandLover]

seahorse, on 16 Mar 2015 - 01:39, said:seahorse, on 16 Mar 2015 - 01:39, said:seahorse, on 16 Mar 2015 - 01:39, said:

I think it's clear that the early reports of this case are more reliable than later reports i.e. before the real culprits had a chance to get their story straight and help police with their enquiries.

For example, in an article from the newspaper we are not allowed to link to, dated the 17th September, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said

"On Sunday foreign tourists attended a party on Sairee beach in front of Ocean View Bungalow, about 30m from where the bodies were found. The bodies of the two victims were found yesterday morning by Myanmar workers while they cleaned the beach.

Tests on DNA samples collected from the body of Hannah Victoria Witheridge, 24, did not match samples taken from the other victim, David William Miller, 24, or Christopher Alan Ware, Miller's friend, or the six Myanmar workers earlier suspected. The DNA of two men was found on the cigarette butt and they matched the DNA found in the semen found inside the female victim' s body. It seemed the two men had shared a cigarette about the time Miller and Witheridge had walked past them.

A hoe from a nearby vegetable garden had been used in the murder.The murderers might have used two weapons. The blood on the hoe was from Witheridge alone. The other weapon was likely to be a metal object used to bludgeon Miller."

• there was a beach party
• six Myanmar workers were the first suspects
• the RTP had the ability to test DNA quickly
• the DNA from those Myanmar workers did not match Hannah's DNA.
• no mention of Hannah's DNA on the cigarette
• David and Hannah had walked past "the two men"
• David's blood was not on the hoe
• there was another weapon

Were the Burmese two included in those first suspects who were cleared?

Who were the two men?

What was the other weapon?

Also from that article although not attributed to Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong, just "the police said" or "A police officer who asked not to be named said"

"The team identified the male victim as David William Miller, 24, a British national. He was found naked with a fractured skull and a deep cut to his neck, believed to have been inflicted with a sharp weapon,"

"found thongs, a pair of black trousers, a T-shirt, a pair of underpants and a used condom at the crime scene."

"A bloodstained hoe and a fertiliser sack were found nearby."

"they were alerted to the brutal murder about an hour before noon yesterday."

"from an initial inspection of the victims' bodies they believed Miller was attacked from behind."

"Witheridge, meanwhile, was dragged away from the first attack spot"

"Investigators who searched Miller's room found a pair of cream-coloured trousers with what they believed were bloodstains on both legs stuffed in Miller's luggage"

• a hoe is not a sharp weapon
• David was wearing light coloured shorts on that night
• whose are the dark trousers that were found and what happened to them?
• what has the fertiliser sack got to do with it?
• why did Koh Tao police take so long to contact Surat Thani police?
• the investigators are obviously from Surat Thani, so it must have been Koh Tao police who put David's trousers there
• how did Koh Tao police get David's trousers?

"found thongs, a pair of black trousers, a T-shirt, a pair of underpants and a used condom at the crime scene."

whose are the dark trousers that were found and what happened to them?

That's something I've been wondering about ever since I saw the crime scene photos. The dark coloured "trousers" lying in a heap on the beach were not what David was wearing that night, yet when the items recovered from the beach were displayed on a table in a press photo, lo and behold, David's beige-coloured shorts were there, but no black/dark blue trousers. Very curious.

Edited March 16, 2015 by IslandLover

[MaxLee]

In emergency and face the eating cases, the influential powers of Koh Tao can just order the hit in their own prisoner circles on the two Burmese and make it look like an accident...

[jdinasia]

In emergency and face the eating cases, the influential powers of Koh Tao can just order the hit in their own prisoner circles on the two Burmese and make it look like an accident...

Huh?

[boomerangutang]

seahorse, on 16 Mar 2015 - 01:39, said:seahorse, on 16 Mar 2015 - 01:39, said:seahorse, on 16 Mar 2015 - 01:39, said:

I think it's clear that the early reports of this case are more reliable than later reports i.e. before the real culprits had a chance to get their story straight and help police with their enquiries.

For example, in an article from the newspaper we are not allowed to link to, dated the 17th September, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said

"On Sunday foreign tourists attended a party on Sairee beach in front of Ocean View Bungalow, about 30m from where the bodies were found. The bodies of the two victims were found yesterday morning by Myanmar workers while they cleaned the beach.

Tests on DNA samples collected from the body of Hannah Victoria Witheridge, 24, did not match samples taken from the other victim, David William Miller, 24, or Christopher Alan Ware, Miller's friend, or the six Myanmar workers earlier suspected. The DNA of two men was found on the cigarette butt and they matched the DNA found in the semen found inside the female victim' s body. It seemed the two men had shared a cigarette about the time Miller and Witheridge had walked past them.

A hoe from a nearby vegetable garden had been used in the murder.The murderers might have used two weapons. The blood on the hoe was from Witheridge alone. The other weapon was likely to be a metal object used to bludgeon Miller."

• there was a beach party
• six Myanmar workers were the first suspects
• the RTP had the ability to test DNA quickly
• the DNA from those Myanmar workers did not match Hannah's DNA.
• no mention of Hannah's DNA on the cigarette
• David and Hannah had walked past "the two men"
• David's blood was not on the hoe
• there was another weapon

Were the Burmese two included in those first suspects who were cleared?

Who were the two men?

What was the other weapon?

Also from that article although not attributed to Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong, just "the police said" or "A police officer who asked not to be named said"

"The team identified the male victim as David William Miller, 24, a British national. He was found naked with a fractured skull and a deep cut to his neck, believed to have been inflicted with a sharp weapon,"

"found thongs, a pair of black trousers, a T-shirt, a pair of underpants and a used condom at the crime scene."

"A bloodstained hoe and a fertiliser sack were found nearby."

"they were alerted to the brutal murder about an hour before noon yesterday."

"from an initial inspection of the victims' bodies they believed Miller was attacked from behind."

"Witheridge, meanwhile, was dragged away from the first attack spot"

"Investigators who searched Miller's room found a pair of cream-coloured trousers with what they believed were bloodstains on both legs stuffed in Miller's luggage"

• a hoe is not a sharp weapon
• David was wearing light coloured shorts on that night
• whose are the dark trousers that were found and what happened to them?
• what has the fertiliser sack got to do with it?
• why did Koh Tao police take so long to contact Surat Thani police?
• the investigators are obviously from Surat Thani, so it must have been Koh Tao police who put David's trousers there
• how did Koh Tao police get David's trousers?

"found thongs, a pair of black trousers, a T-shirt, a pair of underpants and a used condom at the crime scene."

whose are the dark trousers that were found and what happened to them?

That's something I've been wondering about ever since I saw the crime scene photos. The dark coloured "trousers" lying in a heap on the beach were not what David was wearing that night, yet when the items recovered from the beach were displayed on a table in a press photo, lo and behold, David's beige-coloured shorts were there, but no black/dark blue trousers. Very curious.

Good points. It can be useful to go back to assess what was (purportedly) found at the crime scene when it was fresh. Before Mon pranced all over it, though he may have also done things at the crime scene in the hours before cops arrived. Perhaps some of the defense witnesses can attest to that, if they're not too much in fear of their lives - for speaking out against the H's people.

from a post just prior: "Tests on DNA collected from the body of Hannah Witheridge, 24, did not match with David Miller,...."

If none of David's DNA shows up on Hannah, then that's yet another proof that the RTP's reenactment scenario was wrong.

....and black pants at the scene, but not regarded as significant by authorities (?!?) - jeezo, this investigation would be like a badly written Marvel comic, were it not dealing with such a tragic event. And two additional lives could get snuffed out if Thai officialdom get their way.

There's still the issue of missing phone records of the time right after the crime. Are phone companies in collusion? In other words, if they're asked to supply phone call histories of Monday sept 15th, at the island, how will they respond? Here are some suppositions to response from RTP inquiries:

>>> we don't have records of phone calls

>>> we had them, but no longer have them. After x# of days, they're deleted.

>>> we have them, but can't divulge them for privacy reasons (same reasons H's people didn't divulge their CCTV footage)

>>> we had them but a powerful person on the island told us to trash them. (no, on 2nd thought, scratch that possibility. There can't be that much honesty involved).

Asking to see phone records/histories from persons of interest would be a complete dead end street. For starters, all those people would erase phone call records as soon as possible on the 15th. Secondly, it's likely those same folks would toss their sim cards for the same reasons. I wonder if the defense team will look into that aspect? Then again, if they try delving in to that can of worms, the prosecution (and judge?) will likely say it's not relevant to finding the B2 guilty. There's no one else on trial this summer, only the two Burmese young men. Anything relating to anyone else will likely be deemed off-topic or irrelevant. I hope I'm wrong. We'll see.

Edited March 16, 2015 by boomerangutang

[JLCrab]

If none of Mr. Miller's DNA shows up on Ms. Witheridge, it is also possible that they were interrupted before Mr. Miller reached any climax.

Edited March 16, 2015 by JLCrab

[AleG]

seahorse, on 16 Mar 2015 - 01:39, said:seahorse, on 16 Mar 2015 - 01:39, said:seahorse, on 16 Mar 2015 - 01:39, said:

I think it's clear that the early reports of this case are more reliable than later reports i.e. before the real culprits had a chance to get their story straight and help police with their enquiries.

For example, in an article from the newspaper we are not allowed to link to, dated the 17th September, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said

"On Sunday foreign tourists attended a party on Sairee beach in front of Ocean View Bungalow, about 30m from where the bodies were found. The bodies of the two victims were found yesterday morning by Myanmar workers while they cleaned the beach.

Tests on DNA samples collected from the body of Hannah Victoria Witheridge, 24, did not match samples taken from the other victim, David William Miller, 24, or Christopher Alan Ware, Miller's friend, or the six Myanmar workers earlier suspected. The DNA of two men was found on the cigarette butt and they matched the DNA found in the semen found inside the female victim' s body. It seemed the two men had shared a cigarette about the time Miller and Witheridge had walked past them.

A hoe from a nearby vegetable garden had been used in the murder.The murderers might have used two weapons. The blood on the hoe was from Witheridge alone. The other weapon was likely to be a metal object used to bludgeon Miller."

• there was a beach party
• six Myanmar workers were the first suspects
• the RTP had the ability to test DNA quickly
• the DNA from those Myanmar workers did not match Hannah's DNA.
• no mention of Hannah's DNA on the cigarette
• David and Hannah had walked past "the two men"
• David's blood was not on the hoe
• there was another weapon

Were the Burmese two included in those first suspects who were cleared?

Who were the two men?

What was the other weapon?

Also from that article although not attributed to Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong, just "the police said" or "A police officer who asked not to be named said"

"The team identified the male victim as David William Miller, 24, a British national. He was found naked with a fractured skull and a deep cut to his neck, believed to have been inflicted with a sharp weapon,"

"found thongs, a pair of black trousers, a T-shirt, a pair of underpants and a used condom at the crime scene."

"A bloodstained hoe and a fertiliser sack were found nearby."

"they were alerted to the brutal murder about an hour before noon yesterday."

"from an initial inspection of the victims' bodies they believed Miller was attacked from behind."

"Witheridge, meanwhile, was dragged away from the first attack spot"

"Investigators who searched Miller's room found a pair of cream-coloured trousers with what they believed were bloodstains on both legs stuffed in Miller's luggage"

• a hoe is not a sharp weapon
• David was wearing light coloured shorts on that night
• whose are the dark trousers that were found and what happened to them?
• what has the fertiliser sack got to do with it?
• why did Koh Tao police take so long to contact Surat Thani police?
• the investigators are obviously from Surat Thani, so it must have been Koh Tao police who put David's trousers there
• how did Koh Tao police get David's trousers?

"found thongs, a pair of black trousers, a T-shirt, a pair of underpants and a used condom at the crime scene."

whose are the dark trousers that were found and what happened to them?

That's something I've been wondering about ever since I saw the crime scene photos. The dark coloured "trousers" lying in a heap on the beach were not what David was wearing that night, yet when the items recovered from the beach were displayed on a table in a press photo, lo and behold, David's beige-coloured shorts were there, but no black/dark blue trousers. Very curious.

Good points. It can be useful to go back to assess what was (purportedly) found at the crime scene when it was fresh. Before Mon pranced all over it, though he may have also done things at the crime scene in the hours before cops arrived. Perhaps some of the defense witnesses can attest to that, if they're not too much in fear of their lives - for speaking out against the H's people.

from a post just prior: "Tests on DNA collected from the body of Hannah Witheridge, 24, did not match with David Miller,...."

If none of David's DNA shows up on Hannah, then that's yet another proof that the RTP's reenactment scenario was wrong.

....and black pants at the scene, but not regarded as significant by authorities (?!?) - jeezo, this investigation would be like a badly written Marvel comic, were it not dealing with such a tragic event. And two additional lives could get snuffed out if Thai officialdom get their way.

There's still the issue of missing phone records of the time right after the crime. Are phone companies in collusion? In other words, if they're asked to supply phone call histories of Monday sept 15th, at the island, how will they respond? Here are some suppositions to response from RTP inquiries:

>>> we don't have records of phone calls

>>> we had them, but no longer have them. After x# of days, they're deleted.

>>> we have them, but can't divulge them for privacy reasons (same reasons H's people didn't divulge their CCTV footage)

>>> we had them but a powerful person on the island told us to trash them. (no, on 2nd thought, scratch that possibility. There can't be that much honesty involved).

Asking to see phone records/histories from persons of interest would be a complete dead end street. For starters, all those people would erase phone call records as soon as possible on the 15th. Secondly, it's likely those same folks would toss their sim cards for the same reasons. I wonder if the defense team will look into that aspect? Then again, if they try delving in to that can of worms, the prosecution (and judge?) will likely say it's not relevant to finding the B2 guilty. There's no one else on trial this summer, only the two Burmese young men. Anything relating to anyone else will likely be deemed off-topic or irrelevant. I hope I'm wrong. We'll see.

Apparently you took offense at me pointing out that you cannot make an argument without resorting to fantasy scenarios; and here you are doing it again:

"Before Mon pranced all over it, though he may have also done things at the crime scene in the hours before cops arrived. Perhaps some of the defense witnesses can attest to that, if they're not too much in fear of their lives - for speaking out against the H's people."

"Asking to see phone records/histories from persons of interest would be a complete dead end street. For starters, all those people would erase phone call records as soon as possible on the 15th. Secondly, it's likely those same folks would toss their sim cards for the same reasons."

You do know... well, actually I'm sure you don't know, that phone records are kept by the service provider, they are not simply kept on the end user's phone. Again, you create a strawman, that the police didn't check any phone records, you assume your self-serving story to be true and use it to arrive to, surprise surprise, to the conclusion you wanted to arrive in the first place. How very convenient.

In any case, it's funny how the same tired, thoroughly debunked memes get trotted out, over and over again. The pants in the crime scene in this case. They were Miller's pants, that's reality, do try to handle it.

Edited March 16, 2015 by AleG

[berybert]

If none of Mr. Miller's DNA shows up on Ms. Witheridge, it is also possible that they were interrupted before Mr. Miller reached any climax.

And as I have pointed out before these two people who were in lust with each other didn't manage to swap saliva. Or do you only kiss after climax ?

[JLCrab]

If none of Mr. Miller's DNA shows up on Ms. Witheridge, it is also possible that they were interrupted before Mr. Miller reached any climax.

And as I have pointed out before these two people who were in lust with each other didn't manage to swap saliva. Or do you only kiss after climax ?

Swap saliva -- that's a good one. Poetic. I have no idea to what extent forensics are able to recover another's saliva from the deceased compared to ... oh forget it.

Edited March 16, 2015 by JLCrab

[berybert]

If none of Mr. Miller's DNA shows up on Ms. Witheridge, it is also possible that they were interrupted before Mr. Miller reached any climax.

And as I have pointed out before these two people who were in lust with each other didn't manage to swap saliva. Or do you only kiss after climax ?

Swap saliva -- that's a good one. Poetic. I have no idea to what extent forensics are able to recover another's saliva from the deceased compared to ... oh forget it.

Yes cant explain that one so forget it.

http://www.911rape.org/dna-evidence-in-sexual-assault-cases/how-dna-evidence-works

In fact the 3rd set of DNA found on Hannah was indeed forgotten about. You should join the RTP you have the right mind set.

Edited March 16, 2015 by berybert

[JLCrab]

You're absolutely right. I have no idea to what extent the UK forensics persons are able to obtain DNA from another person's saliva from a corpse that has been embalmed and repatriated to the home country.

Edited March 16, 2015 by JLCrab

[jdinasia]

If none of Mr. Miller's DNA shows up on Ms. Witheridge, it is also possible that they were interrupted before Mr. Miller reached any climax.

And as I have pointed out before these two people who were in lust with each other didn't manage to swap saliva. Or do you only kiss after climax ?

Swap saliva -- that's a good one. Poetic. I have no idea to what extent forensics are able to recover another's saliva from the deceased compared to ... oh forget it.

Yes cant explain that one so forget it.

http://www.911rape.org/dna-evidence-in-sexual-assault-cases/how-dna-evidence-works

In fact the 3rd set of DNA found on Hannah was indeed forgotten about. You should join the RTP you have the right mind set.

It seems that you do believe things.

We will see what DNA evidence is presented in court.

[rubl]

"LONDON: -- Human rights activists have expressed alarm after it emerged that British police might have breached legal guidelines by providing evidence to Thai authorities which could potentially help them execute suspects accused of murdering two British backpackers."

I just stumbled over a scientific paper which will surely be seen as very controversial by many. It suggest that in the Middle Ages capital punishment 'may' have led to genetically filtering out some 'violence' genes. From the abstract:

"The decline in personal violence is usually attributed to harsher punishment and the longer-term effects of cultural conditioning. It may also be, however, that this new cultural environment selected against propensities for violence."

Evolutionary Psychology – ISSN 1474-7049 – Volume 13(1). 2015.

http://www.epjournal.net/articles/western-europe-state-formation-and-genetic-pacification/

[stephenterry]

Yes cant explain that one so forget it.

http://www.911rape.org/dna-evidence-in-sexual-assault-cases/how-dna-evidence-works

In fact the 3rd set of DNA found on Hannah was indeed forgotten about. You should join the RTP you have the right mind set.

It seems that you do believe things.

We will see what DNA evidence is presented in court.

Don't pin all your hopes on DNA. If acceptable, it would be circumstantial at best, but would not be prima facie evidence of murder. Therein lies the rub. There are few who believe the B2 are the killers, but there is a lack of reported evidence to support that charge.

Maybe a number of prosecution witnesses who have miraculously materialised at a late stage instead of at the beginning of the investigation, will fill the gap. I find it laughable that these 60+ prosecution witnesses weren't able to march the B2 into RTP HQ in the few days following the murders.

Note: Extract from Wiki: In a trial under criminal law the prosecution has the burden of presenting prima facie evidence of each element of the crime charged against the defendant. In a murder case, this would include evidence that i) the victim was in fact dead, i) that the defendant's act caused the death, and iii) evidence that the defendant acted with malice aforethought. If no party introduces new evidence, the case stands or falls just by the prima facie evidence or lack thereof.

Let's look at this. i) is fact. ii) No suspects DNA on the hoe, no other murder weapon = no prima facie evidence iii) no prima facie evidence to support malice, see ii).

Conclusion: there is a lack of prima facie evidence to support a murder charge.

[jdinasia]

Yes cant explain that one so forget it.

http://www.911rape.org/dna-evidence-in-sexual-assault-cases/how-dna-evidence-works

In fact the 3rd set of DNA found on Hannah was indeed forgotten about. You should join the RTP you have the right mind set.

It seems that you do believe things.

We will see what DNA evidence is presented in court.

Don't pin all your hopes on DNA. If acceptable, it would be circumstantial at best, but would not be prima facie evidence of murder. Therein lies the rub. There are few who believe the B2 are the killers, but there is a lack of reported evidence to support that charge.

Maybe a number of prosecution witnesses who have miraculously materialised at a late stage instead of at the beginning of the investigation, will fill the gap. I find it laughable that these 60+ prosecution witnesses weren't able to march the B2 into RTP HQ in the few days following the murders.

Note: Extract from Wiki: In a trial under criminal law the prosecution has the burden of presenting prima facie evidence of each element of the crime charged against the defendant. In a murder case, this would include evidence that i) the victim was in fact dead, i) that the defendant's act caused the death, and iii) evidence that the defendant acted with malice aforethought. If no party introduces new evidence, the case stands or falls just by the prima facie evidence or lack thereof.

Let's look at this. i) is fact. ii) No suspects DNA on the hoe, no other murder weapon = no prima facie evidence iii) no prima facie evidence to support malice, see ii).

Conclusion: there is a lack of prima facie evidence to support a murder charge.

Wrong conclusion.

You can get a murder conviction with no body and no murder weapon.

[stephenterry]

We will see what DNA evidence is presented in court.

Don't pin all your hopes on DNA. If acceptable, it would be circumstantial at best, but would not be prima facie evidence of murder. Therein lies the rub. There are few who believe the B2 are the killers, but there is a lack of reported evidence to support that charge.

Maybe a number of prosecution witnesses who have miraculously materialised at a late stage instead of at the beginning of the investigation, will fill the gap. I find it laughable that these 60+ prosecution witnesses weren't able to march the B2 into RTP HQ in the few days following the murders.

Note: Extract from Wiki: In a trial under criminal law the prosecution has the burden of presenting prima facie evidence of each element of the crime charged against the defendant. In a murder case, this would include evidence that i) the victim was in fact dead, i) that the defendant's act caused the death, and iii) evidence that the defendant acted with malice aforethought. If no party introduces new evidence, the case stands or falls just by the prima facie evidence or lack thereof.

Let's look at this. i) is fact. ii) No suspects DNA on the hoe, no other murder weapon = no prima facie evidence iii) no prima facie evidence to support malice, see ii).

Conclusion: there is a lack of prima facie evidence to support a murder charge.

Wrong conclusion.

You can get a murder conviction with no body and no murder weapon.

With eye witnesses and other prima facie evidence that would pass the 'beyond reasonable doubt' criteria - but in this case there's a lack of such evidence.

I still need to know how you think David was killed? Can't be the hoe. With a bottle? Or an AK47? Prove it. And this is what the prosecution faces. They need more to gain a murder conviction.

Edited March 16, 2015 by stephenterry

[catsanddogs]

berybert, on 15 Mar 2015 - 16:00, said:

jdinasia, on 15 Mar 2015 - 15:31, said:

Here's what Panya said http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe

"The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred."

So now you aren't just defaming people who were persons of interest, you go on to defame a senior officer who you were defending earlier (until it was pointed out that he actually cleared the people you are obsessed with blami)

So having read that article it says that 2 Thais were the first suspects and not Burmese then foreign. It also states a person of interest was cleared as he had no tattoo.

I don't recall either of the Burmese having a tattoo.

From the above article:

Since the killings, police have focused on finding Asian men of 170 centimetres tall and with a 40 shoe size, based on surveillance camera footage and footprints on Sairee beach where the couple died.

Neither of the B2 matches those characteristics.

Also, if the article is referring to the "running man" then he doesn't appear to have any tattoos either. I'm beginning to think that the RTP is in possession of CCTV images at the time of the crime which have never been made public.

Of course they are in possession of more images, such as the one of the running woman which they chose not to release to the public. Let's hope the defence have been privy to all of them too.