Thai phrases and words spoken by Thai girl

[Khwanoi]

Hi guys,

I'm a girl from Thailand and made an app for Android to help you learning Thai

I audio-recorded many Thai phrases and words and there is even a quiz to test your knowledge.

I would be happy if you try it and let me know if you have feedback or questions!

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ai.projectThai

Greetings
Khwanoi

[Khwanoi]

Is there noone interested in the app? Would be happy to hear some feedback

[Mole]

Looking at this screenshot,

Exactly how are you supposed people will be able to read that? For example the inverted c with a caron on top??

What is the reasoning behind using such an obscure way to transcribe the Thai? Why not just use RTGS, which is an established standard?

kho bia nueng khuat

[Khwanoi]

Dear Mole,

thank you very much for your feedback. I agree with you that RTGS is easier to understand at first. But it is not the best way to learn the Thai langauge because

- it includes no tones

- it does not distinguish between different tones such as โ (as in "moan") and อ (as in "raw")

- it does not distinguish long and short tones

This is why I decided to use the Paiboon+ system. This is a widely recognized system in langauge learning resources.

For more information on the comparison: http://slice-of-thai.com/pronunciation-guides/

Thanks

Khwanoi

[Mole]

Yes, I know RTGS has its shortcomings, but it is after all only a help in the steps to learn Thai. After some proficiency, the user will move on to using Thai characters instead of RTGS, so one might as well just let a user be familiar with an established standard than some obscure system with lots of non Latin characters.

The RTGS will only function as an approximation for beginners on how to pronounce Thai. When they have gained proficiency, RTGS should not be necessary and they can move on to reading Thai characters instead. But it will also make it much easier for beginners to start off with RTGS because they won't need to learn how to pronounce the non Latin characters or the tone markers of Paiboon+ system.

In additional, it will also be easier for tourists who may want to use your app to learn only a few phrases to manage during their visit. With this Paiboon+, people will not have any idea how to pronounce that ขอ written in Paiboon+ system, while "kho" can be pronounced by most people all over the world.

[Khwanoi]

I get your point. Still I have the feeling that many people wouldn't like the lack of tones and precision of the RTGS system.

So maybe it would be the best option for me to include a toggle button in the settings view that enables users to switch between both systems, what do you think?

Do you have other suggestions what features might be useful for language learners?

[Baa_Mango]

RTGS is a waste of time. Most modern learning styles are similar to what you have included in your application.

The Paiboon+ system is the way to go. Similar to thai-language.com and the amazing grammar book "Thai Reference Grammar"

Although transliteration systems are a crutch to help learners make the leap to written Thai, you might as well have a strong and useful crutch that clarifies short and long vowels, and tons. The RTGS is a complete joke, that is anti-intuitive and may only help to hinder learners.

Also Mole ? are you shitting me ? Koh will be read and pronunciation as is spelt which is Ko like coco. Should be kaw.. or paiboon style. W/ paiboon system all you need to do is to look at the guide.

great work

[Mole]

Your spelling assumes from an English reading. I can guarantee you that a German or Scandinavian would definitely not read "kaw" like ขอ. Actually not many other European languages would read "kaw" as ขอ except from English.

In languages such as Spanish and Italian, the k would be read as a ก.

[starrdog]

I think it's really good as it is for a beginners' application. If people aren't sure how to pronounce something, the speaker button is right there anyway. If you do anything more advanced, it would be nice to have the audio more natural instead of the slight pausing you do after each syllable. Words like อะไร sound strange (computer generated?) with a pause in the middle.

[Khwanoi]

Hi starrdog, thank you very much for your feedback! I'm happy that you like my app.

No actually I recorded all audio myself, I did nothing computer generated. I speak on purpose slowly to make foreigners understand every syllable.

I think it would be a good idea to include more natural audio. But this takes a long time to record all over again If possible I will try to make a setting where the user can set the speed of the phrases to different levels.

My focus of this app is learning the language. I'm planning to include more features such as learning the Thai writing. So if you have any more ideas, i will be happy to discuss

[starrdog]

"I think it would be a good idea to include more natural audio. But this takes a long time to record all over again If possible I will try to make a setting where the user can set the speed of the phrases to different levels."

I wasn't suggesting you re-record anything or add speed settings. I think your app is already good just like it is. My comment was in regards to any future app you might make. If your target audience is beginners, then speaking slow and clear is fine. If you want to target people with a little more knowledge, then a slightly faster and more natural way of speaking would be better in my opinion.

[Baa_Mango]

hey mole, that I did not know! Makes more sense where your stance is coming from, although I still really hate the illogical and outdated approach RTGS takes. What could be helpful is what the paiboon books/materials have : a pronunciation guide that illustrates what sound letter will make ( ie k ค making a the same sound a the k in key etc etc)

[MaeJoMTB]

Your spelling assumes from an English reading. I can guarantee you that a German or Scandinavian would definitely not read "kaw" like ขอ. Actually not many other European languages would read "kaw" as ขอ except from English.

In languages such as Spanish and Italian, the k would be read as a ก.

It's an app for English speaking people (or didn't you notice).

If you can't pronounce English, don't use it.

[Mole]

And every English speaking people know how to read the inverted c with a caron, right???

In fact, majority of world's population would never ever had even seen such a character.

So it's an app for English speaking people, but contains characters which English speaking people would have never ever seen in their life, and would therefore have no clue on how to pronounce it unless they also have to do the additional hassle of getting to grips with how the Paiboon+ system works. That certainly adds another level of complexity to learning Thai.

Instead the RTGS should just be a simple approximation of how to pronounce it and RTGS shortcomings should encourage people to try to learn the Thai characters instead of relying on a system based on Latin characters + mixture of obscure characters.

For example, RTGS, doesn't contain any tone symbols, which will encourage people who are serious of learning Thai to switch over to Thai characters instead of hanging on to the Paiboon+ or RTGS for that matter.

I was also replying to Baa_Mango's suggestion in spelling ขอ as kaw by reminding him that people familiar with other languages may not necessary pronounce "kaw" the way English speakers would. Even between the different English varieties, such as American and British English, there would be differences on how to read certain words, especially vowels can be quite different as well as usage of "r" to indicate long vowel.

A person speaking Scottish English will pronounce the "r" in "porn" with a clear rolling of the tongue.

[Baa_Mango]

I believe any serious learners of the language would benefit from paiboon system, just for the fact that the tone marks being shown can be quite beneficial. When i started to seriously learn - the paiboon sys really helped internalize tones of some basic basic stuff. RTGS is illogical imo, but then again I am also a native english speaker. Some of the inverted letters, caron, and what not were useful for understanding the correct vowel (and corresponding vowel sound) that is being used.

Really the truth is that all phonemic Thai systems aren't going replicate real Thai. The Paiboon system comes quite close and even better in some cases of words with Sanskrit and/or Pali origins. Anyways, last thing I am trying to do is argue, but its good to share thoughts. One important thing I do remember in Boomsam Beckers first (orange) book was that her pronunciation guide mentioned specifically that her example sounds were spoken and referenced through a neutral American accent.

[Mole]

So, are you able to read and write Thai now?

[SlyAnimal]

Maybe incorporate an option within your app, which allows users to select whether they use Paiboon or RTGS (Or other systems), it might be a bit of work to incorporate in, but as that seems like the main complaint from app "testers" so far, it's probably worthwhile looking into.

The Paiboon dictionary (I think that's the name of it), has about 10 different versions which people can have their Thai displayed in (e.g. I often have my phonetic displayed in "Easy Thai" which is phonetics using Thai characters with indicators for the tones, but used to use the Paiboon phonetics as found them really good).

I think for most Native English Speakers, they should be able to read all of the symbols in the Paiboon phonetics, as they're just symbols used in the international phonetic dictionaries right?

I know when I was at primary school, and we made spelling mistakes, we had to look up the words we spelt wrong in dictionaries, and the dictionaries usually included the phonetic (using those same funny letters etc). As a result, even though I wasn't consciously looking at them, I inherently understand how the system works, since I was exposed to it on and off for many years. Am I alone in understanding these symbols? Or were others also exposed to these as children?

Also do you have an iOS version of the app at all? (I don't have an android phone, so haven't been able to check it out myself yet).

[Gecko123]

The biggest advantage that I found to using the Benjawan Paibun Becker grammar books was that the phonetic system she used was the same used in the Mary Haas Thai-English student dictionary. To the best of my knowledge, the Mary Haas Thai-English student dictionary has the largest number of entries for a dictionary which uses this phonetic system.

While I agree completely with Baa_Mango that the goal of any serious student of Thai should be to use the Thai writing system as much as possible and to rely on any transliteration system as little as possible, the truth is that even after studying Thai for 20 years I still encounter words which I need to check a reference dictionary in order to pronounce correctly. The Mary Haas Thai-English dictionary is still the one I refer to most often for pronunciation help. Another dictionary which provides excellent guidance on pronunciation but which uses the Thai alphabet to explain how a word is pronounced is the New Model Thai-English dictionary.

To Kwanoi:

Since you asked for feedback, I will give you some advice.

I would recommend that you have a native English speaker review your application to check that the phrases you are introducing are in as natural spoken English as possible and that there are no grammar, punctuation or spelling errors. For example, the word vegetarian appears to be misspelled, and the phrase "I'd like to drink cocktails", while grammatically correct, sounds somewhat stiff and awkward. The phrase: "I'd like to drink (or have) a cocktail" might convey your intent more accurately.

Nothing will doom your application faster than if the English speaking student decides that nobody speaks English like that in real life.

Hope this is helpful, and I do wish you success in your endeavor.

[Baa_Mango]

hey Gecko123 .. Does Mary Haas have any new editions ? Any suggestions on where to buy? I have a ton of books but have found my self just using thai-language.com or other online resources.. Same paiboon/haas style phonemic translation styles as well as using the Thai phonemic break down as well.

example

มหาวิทยาลัยศรีนครินทรวิโรฒ
maH haaR witH thaH yaaM laiM seeR naH khaH rinM wiH ro:htF pronunciation guide Phonemic Thai มะ-หา-วิด-ทะ-ยา-ลัย-สี-นะ-คะ-ริน-วิ-โรด Royal Thai General System maha witthayalai sinakharinwirot

[Johpa]

And every English speaking people know how to read the inverted c with a caron, right???

Those of us who used the classic AUA Thai books, to great affect I should add, are quite familiar with the inverted c. And I assumed the caron was used as a tone mark. I don't have any device to download the app, but what I see here are some familiar forms of transliteration that worked well for me as an intermediate step in my first year Thai studies during those first months before we had learned to read Thai.

[Gecko123]

hey Gecko123 .. Does Mary Haas have any new editions ? Any suggestions on where to buy? I have a ton of books but have found my self just using thai-language.com or other online resources.. Same paiboon/haas style phonemic translation styles as well as using the Thai phonemic break down as well.

example

มหาวิทยาลัยศรีนครินทรวิโรฒ

maH haaR witH thaH yaaM laiM seeR naH khaH rinM wiH ro:htF pronunciation guide Phonemic Thai มะ-หา-วิด-ทะ-ยา-ลัย-สี-นะ-คะ-ริน-วิ-โรด Royal Thai General System maha witthayalai sinakharinwirot

Looks like Amazon sells. Published through Stanford University Press, almost certain you can order through Stanford University bookstore. Even though this dictionary hasn't been updated in a while, it is still very helpful.

I never have and don't recommend transliteration methods such as the one you reference above. The only transliteration I ever use is the Haas/Paiboon standard phonetic alphabet system used by Haas/Paiboon.

[Baa_Mango]

I actually found some used ones at a decent price online (amazon)

I think the example I pasted above (not the RTGS but the one with the subscript) is similar to Paiboon in that is reps ป as bp and ต as dt.. only difference I noticed is the use of subscript letters to designate tones .. ie ปลา is bplaaM.

Anyway aside from the (imo..) super dated and obsolete RTGS.. I think if it differentiates between TONE, Vowel (and vowel length) and clearly between บ ป ด ต then.. good stuff.

I just get frustrated (well not anymore as I don't use these resources) with the ph p bh b t th d mess of sounds between พ ป บ ท ด ต

anyways! the more resources the better! I noticed in hindsight after years of seeing different transliteration systems it has only helped reenforce and internalize actual Thai stuff.

yay so fun ! haha

[Khwanoi]

Thanks all so much for discussion and feedback!!

- @SlyAnimal: I will try to add RTGS as soon as possible. Or at least add a description on how the paiboon system works.

- Right now, I'm sorry there is no Iphone version yet. I don't plan it as of now.

- @Gecko123: This is really a good feedback, I didn't notice that I will change the cocktail phrase as you suggested. Because right now I have no English native friend: in case you find some more strange phrases, I would be happy if you write me pm, so I can correct!

- If you like the app I would be happy if you could give the app a rating on the play store

- Right now I'm working on feature to track the learning stage. So depending on how you do on the quiz, the app can show your learning progress. I hope you will like it!

[Baa_Mango]

Yea quite a lot of hits on Amazon but either expensive shipping or no shipping. Can order from SUP directly as well.

[tingtongtourist]

Yes, I know RTGS has its shortcomings, but it is after all only a help in the steps to learn Thai. After some proficiency, the user will move on to using Thai characters instead of RTGS, so one might as well just let a user be familiar with an established standard than some obscure system with lots of non Latin characters.

The RTGS will only function as an approximation for beginners on how to pronounce Thai. When they have gained proficiency, RTGS should not be necessary and they can move on to reading Thai characters instead. But it will also make it much easier for beginners to start off with RTGS because they won't need to learn how to pronounce the non Latin characters or the tone markers of Paiboon+ system.

In additional, it will also be easier for tourists who may want to use your app to learn only a few phrases to manage during their visit. With this Paiboon+, people will not have any idea how to pronounce that ขอ written in Paiboon+ system, while "kho" can be pronounced by most people all over the world.

The phrase you used is a perfect example of what the OP was trying to tell you..

To use "koh" is useless as many readers would confuse with the thai word for "island"

If you wrote... kor bia nueng kuat..

It might be understood but as different nationalities pronounce english differently you can see why having to learn thai sounds from thai text is the only way to go.

Im with the OP..if your serious about learning thai its silly to learn everything phoenetic and then have to turn around and learn thai text.

with many resources on the net Its not that hard to memorise the sounds associated to thai numerals

[Baa_Mango]

use phonemic representations only is a big waste of time, using it was a crutch and building blocks to grasp and eventually understand the ins and outs give it a much more meaningful use.

Many people may not plan to just flat out learn to read and write and speak Thai but may want to learn the basics.. getting the tones from phonetics could be quite useful.

[Khwanoi]

Hey guys, I just have spoken more phrases for Songkran

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=thai.projectThai

Also here is the video to explain the app!

สุขสันต์วันสงกรานต์

[AnnaBanana]

Your spelling assumes from an English reading. I can guarantee you that a German or Scandinavian would definitely not read "kaw" like ขอ. Actually not many other European languages would read "kaw" as ขอ except from English.

In languages such as Spanish and Italian, the k would be read as a ก.

It's an app for English speaking people (or didn't you notice).

If you can't pronounce English, don't use it.

Agreed.

Just like the phonetics in Robertson's Practical Thai Dictionary are useful for Americans.

[Khwanoi]

Hey guys, I just launched a new version of my app. It includes a feature to learn flash cards (spaced repetition)

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=thai.projectThai

What do you think of the new feature? Would you use it?

Here is the video explanation:

https://youtu.be/_TKAP2mKQAk

[Lara Alex]

cool app!

let me know if you need help for audio recording.

I'm keen on volunteering when I have some free time.