Calling for equality

[Lite Beer]

SOCIAL
Calling for equality
Aree Chaisatien
Special to The Sunday Nation

Bhikkhuni Dhammananda, abbess of Watra Songdhammakalayani, was the first Thai woman to be ordained in the Theravada lineage in Sri Lanka

BANGKOK: -- A seminar discusses the ban on the ordination of woman as Buddhist nuns

AS THE world marks International Women's Day today, fair-minded people from around the globe will be celebrating the achievements of women and joining voices to call for greater equality in what is still, in many countries, a male-dominated society.

Here in Thailand, lay supporters of Bhikkhunis - the word used for female monastics or nuns - will be hoping that the Sangha Supreme Council of Thailand (SSC) hears those voices and reverses its ban on the ordination of women.

More than a decade after the first Thai woman was ordained in the Theravada lineage, women who want to be accepted into the order are still facing resistance in Thailand, this despite the acknowledged contribution they are making to society, both locally and globally.

"A woman's right to be ordained as a bhikkhuni is in accordance with PraVinaya (the Buddha's rules)," says Phra Kru Suthammanath, the abbot of Wat Plak Mai Lai in Nakhon Pathom province, at the recent seminar titled "Significance, Situations and Roles of Bhikkhunis in Thai and Global Society".

The seminar was held following the controversial ordination of 47 women from the Asian region last November at Thippayasathandhamma Bhikkhuni Arama, a nunnery on Koh Yor, Songkhla province, by Sri Lankan Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis.

The SSC responded by banning the ordination of women in Thailand, claiming that foreign Sangha should seek permission before holding ordination ceremonies in the Kingdom. The council reiterated the 1928 religious order by the Buddhist Supreme Patriarch forbidding monks from ordaining women, which claims that according to the ordination rules for women, there must be a quorum of both male and female monks for an ordination to be possible. The statement added that the Theravada Bhikkhuni lineage had been discontinued and thus female ordination could no longer be recognised.

"The SSC resolution that reiterates that the Thai Sanghato adheres to the 1928 announcement of Supreme Patriarch Chinavorn Siriwatthat forbidding male monks to ordain women, clearly indicates it is high time for religious reform," asserts Paiboon Nititawan, a member of the National Reform Council (NRC).

He adds that the SSC's resolution represents an interpretation of the rules and is not a command of the Buddha.

"According to Buddhist principles, women are allowed to be ordained on the grounds of accepting the Eight Garudhammas (heavy rules). Mahapajapati Gotami along with 500 other women, were ordained by Bhikkhus as there were no Bhikkhunis then," Paiboon points out.

There are no obstacles to ordination in terms of dharma principles, he adds, yet the SSC insists on adhering to its interpretation of the law. In his view, the SSC's ban on the Koh Yor ordination oversteps its powers.

"Any legal organisation should be open to criticism. Religious affairs should not be in the hands of bhikkhus if only because the Buddha set up a four-fold assembly, made up of bhikkhus (monks), bhikkhunis (female monks), laymen and laywomen. Laymen and laywomen must also participate in supporting Buddhism," Paiboon stresses.

Mano Laohavanich, a renowned Buddhist scholar at Thammasat University's Chulabhorn International College of Medicine and a former monk, notes that all Buddhist lineages or schools emerged from the first council of Vinaya recitation, where disciples re-constructed the way in which the Buddha's teachings should be followed in future. This led to differences of interpretation of the Buddha's teachings after his death.

"It is a misunderstanding that the Theravada lineage follows the truest of the Buddha's teachings," he says.

"The Buddha's reason for refusing three times the request of Mahapajapati Gotami, his maternal aunt and adoptive mother, to be ordained, should be pondered in depth," adds Phra Kru Suthammanath.

"There were many conditions attached to her eventual ordination and for good reason. Ask yourselves this: if you have a daughter, would you allow her to sleep in the jungle? Would that be appropriate?" asks the abbot of Wat Plak Mai Lai, who was one of male monks present at the revival of the female monk ordination in Theravada Tradition in Bodhgaya, India in 1998.

The fact that female candidates need to be ordained by bhikkhuni teachers (pavattini) also needs to be re-examined, stressed Dhammananda, the abbess of Watra Songdhammakalayani Monastery in Nakhon Pathom, in a letter read out to the seminar after illness prevented her for from attending.

The letter, read out by moderator Kanchana Sutthikul, confirmed that while pavattini were indeed involved, their role was to conduct the purification process during which the candidates are asked questions related to the female anatomy. "The practice of having bhikkhuni teachers in the first place was because some candidates might be embarrassed were such questions to be posed by male monks," Dhammananda explained. "But the actual ordination is done by bhikkhus."

Dhammananda was the first Thai woman to be fully ordained as a Theravada nun. The ordination took place in 2003 in Sri Lanka and she has since devoted herself to restoring Thevarada female monks to Thailand. And she has met with some success. Ordination of nuns in the Theravada lineage has been held in several countries including Australia, Indonesia, Vietnam and Thailand.

Thai bhikkhunis are also taking the lead in restoring bhikkhuni communities and nurturing societies as a whole at local, regional and international levels.

For example, the Network of Thai Bhikkhuni Sangha (Theravada) has been in force since 2013. The Songdhammakalyani Monastery acts as an information centre on bhikkhuni history and dharma rules. During this coming Buddhist Lent, a group of bhikkhunis from India will be trained at the temple in Nakhon Pathom. Additional Bhikkhunis in many countries support one another through an international alliance, of which the abbess is a member

Kanchana, coordinator of Thai Peoples' Network for Promotion of the Fourfold Buddhists and personal secretary to the abbess, has accompanied Dhammananda during many of her activities.

"Some of these could not have been undertaken by bhikkhus," she says, citing as an example the abbess's frequent visits to women in prisons.

The abbess also gives provides educational supports to young people in Sankissa, India, home to most descendants of the Buddha's Sakya clan.

"Buddhism originated in India yet Buddhists number less than one million of the 1.2 billion population," she points out.

"The abbess awards scholarship to Buddhist youths to be ordained at Wat Plak Mai Lai. Although the abbess does not ordain the youngsters herself, she is fully supportive of those who want to be trained and return to Sankissa as Buddhist leaders."

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/sunday/Calling-for-equality-30255478.html

-- The Nation 2015-03-08

[rockyysdt]

Naturally we all (Unawakened) find ourselves attached to thought (amongst other things).

My thoughts include such things as the Sangha Hierarchy being permeated with attachment to sexism, prejudice, & a total misunderstanding of what core Dharma is all about.

What does gender have to do with a path of practice leading to insight into the true nature of reality?

Edited March 9, 2015 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Naturally we all (Unawakened) find ourselves attached to thought (amongst other things).

My thoughts include such things as the Sangha Hierarchy being permeated with attachment to sexism, prejudice, & a total misunderstanding of what core Dharma is all about.

What does gender have to do with a path of practice leading to insight into the true nature of reality?

My thoughts also focus, on some (including women), who think to be born a woman is ones negative kharma for past transgressions.

Such thoughts suggest a belief that women are inferior and their birth is a way of expending the fruits of kharma (vipaka).

One woman even confided that it was not possible for her to Awaken due to her current gender and that her time will come as a Bikkhu in a future re birth as a man.

Does all this align with the Buddhas teachings?

Edited March 9, 2015 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

Does all this align with the Buddhas teachings?

It doesn't, it aligns with cultural conditioning. If we lived 100 years ago we might have had the same cultural conditioning but ours has changed over that time.

[VincentRJ]

Does all this align with the Buddhas teachings?

It doesn't, it aligns with cultural conditioning. If we lived 100 years ago we might have had the same cultural conditioning but ours has changed over that time.

I guess everything aligns with cultural conditioning, even Science to some degree, although I would agree that Science at its best tends to smash cultural conditioning, excepting perhaps the cultural conditioning of the scientific method itself, which must remain intact for science to progress, (ie. the methodology of repeated experimentation by different individuals or organisations over time, in order to confirm or falsify the existing, current theories).

However, I think religions in general are notorious for resisting change, and perhaps understandably because their founders are claimed to have achieved the maximum, humanly possible, state of enlightenment. What was good enough for them must surely be good enough for any follower of those religions, and if society changes the cultural practices too much there is an argument to be made that certain individuals might be deprived of the opportunity to achieve that maximum state of enlightenment.

In the article from The Nation, I find the following comment particularly relevant.

"The Buddha's reason for refusing three times the request of Mahapajapati Gotami, his maternal aunt and adoptive mother, to be ordained, should be pondered in depth," adds Phra Kru Suthammanath."

There might have been sound practical reasons for Gotama's initial reluctance to ordain women, just as there are today practical reasons against women becoming soldiers in the firing line, in the army.

There may also have been ingrained cultural reasons for Buddha's initial reluctance to ordain women. I recall some reference in the Pali scriptures to Gotama's initial reluctance to even teach his method of reaching enlightenment to others, on the grounds that it would be too difficult and a waste of time. Perhaps someone could identify where that reported initial reluctance of Gotama to teach his method, after enlightenment, occurs in the scriptures. As you know, I'm no Pali Scholar.

[Brucenkhamen]

"The Buddha's reason for refusing three times the request of Mahapajapati Gotami, his maternal aunt and adoptive mother, to be ordained, should be pondered in depth," adds Phra Kru Suthammanath."

There may be other reasons but the most obvious one is that it's a standard formula throughout scripture and the tradition when making a request to ask for something three times, I think it's supposed to be a demonstration of sincerity.

So we take refuge 3 times, we ask for the precepts 3 times etc. etc.

There may have been other dynamics in this particular situation with her being the Buddha's foster mother and in a leadership position over 500 women see http://www.academia.edu/9441592/Questions_about_Mah%C4%81paj%C4%81pat%C4%AB_Gotam%C4%AB_s_Ordination for more info.

The main thing is that the Buddha confirmed there wasn't any suggestion women were not "spiritually" capable;

Respectfully he questioned the Buddha, "Lord, are women capable of realising the various stages of sainthood as nuns?"

"They are, Ananda," said the Buddha.

[VincentRJ]

"The Buddha's reason for refusing three times the request of Mahapajapati Gotami, his maternal aunt and adoptive mother, to be ordained, should be pondered in depth," adds Phra Kru Suthammanath."

There may be other reasons but the most obvious one is that it's a standard formula throughout scripture and the tradition when making a request to ask for something three times, I think it's supposed to be a demonstration of sincerity.

So we take refuge 3 times, we ask for the precepts 3 times etc. etc.

There may have been other dynamics in this particular situation with her being the Buddha's foster mother and in a leadership position over 500 women see http://www.academia.edu/9441592/Questions_about_Mah%C4%81paj%C4%81pat%C4%AB_Gotam%C4%AB_s_Ordination for more info.

The main thing is that the Buddha confirmed there wasn't any suggestion women were not "spiritually" capable;

Respectfully he questioned the Buddha, "Lord, are women capable of realising the various stages of sainthood as nuns?"

"They are, Ananda," said the Buddha.

Bruce,

The article "Questions about Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī’s Ordination" to which you linked, strongly implies that the cultural practice of asking for something 3 times in order to confirm one's sincerity, was not sufficient in this situation.

The following extracts from that article reveal that the Buddha refused at least 3 times and that he relented only as a result of the persuasive and emotional arguments from Ananda who reminded Buddha, when his mother died, Mahāpajāpatī suckled him at her own breast.

"According to the story, the protagonist Mahāpajāpatī requested the Buddha three times to be accepted as a nun and take up the homeless life of a wandering ascetic............

Buddha refused three times without giving any reasons for his refusal.............

"Enough, Gotami. Don't set your heart on women being allowed to do this." ...........

Ānanda persisted to implore the Buddha on behalf of the future nuns. Interestingly it was after reminding the Buddha of the role that Mahāpajāpatī had played in his life, as a mother and nurse that the Buddha gave up his resistance."

The following pdf I found on the internet presents another interesting perspective.

https://bhikkhucintita.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/whatdidbuddhathinkofwomen.pdf

[VincentRJ]

Further pondering the reasons for Buddha's reluctance to agree to the ordination of women (as recommended by Phra Kru Suthammanath in the article by The Nation), let's imagine how the situation would have developed if the Buddha had immediately agreed to the ordination of women on the basis that there was no physiological impediment to the female gender being able to achieve enlightenment.

Is it reasonable to make an assumption that those who are attracted to the way of life of a Buddhist monk are those who have become aware, at least at some basic level, of the wide prevalence of suffering in all its degrees of anxiety and discomfort, and who have the perception to understand that the teachings of the Buddha might offer a solution to the problem and provide even complete and enduring freedom from such suffering?

If we imagine what the conditions would have been like for women in India during the time the Buddha lived, is it reasonable to presume that women in general would have been more aware of, and more exposed to additional suffering, not only due to their inequality in society and resulting humiliation, but also due to the extreme pain of giving birth to children, year after year?

In such a society, imagine what might happen if a new organisation claiming to teach freedom from all types of suffering, were to admit women with full equality to men in all respects. Would there not be a wild rush by women from all quarters in society to grab such opportunity to free themselves, not only from suffering but also to become equal in status to men?

Would there not soon develop a situation where Bhikkhunis outnumbered Bhikkhus by a hundred to one? Would chaos not result in normal society? Would there not be continual arguments between father and daughter, the father wanting his daughter to marry a particular suitor, and the daughter demanding that she be allowed to join the order of Bhikkhunis to achieve full equality with men?

Would there not result a shortage of women in normal society to do the cooking and provide the free food for the deluge of Bhikkhunis and the modest number of Bhikkhus?

[rockyysdt]

Would there not soon develop a situation where Bhikkhunis outnumbered Bhikkhus by a hundred to one? Would chaos not result in normal society? Would there not be continual arguments between father and daughter, the father wanting his daughter to marry a particular suitor, and the daughter demanding that she be allowed to join the order of Bhikkhunis to achieve full equality with men?

Would there not result a shortage of women in normal society to do the cooking and provide the free food for the deluge of Bhikkhunis and the modest number of Bhikkhus?

Perhaps, but then couldn't you use this very same argument to ponder on what would happen if everyone on the planet decided to ordain?

Unlikely, but would it lead to the human race dieing of starvation en masse?

A female work colleague I observe is so efficient, not only does she complete her allocated work, she gets involved in helping others, and volunteers additional tasks.

Upon quizzing her, it was revealed that she has a compulsion to keep busy.

Her home is spotless, having been daily vacuumed, curtains washed regularly amongst a myriad of other duties.

During periods of inactivity she is beside herself, not being able to stand idleness for any length of time.

She has an anxious disposition, which she masks by keeping herself busy.

Incidentally she is wearing herself out over a long period.

We all reside in our own little prisons.

The invisible prison bars being fashioned by the personal conditioning we find ourselves with.

Certainly, many women may wish for equality, but I'd say most would be thwarted (held back) by a glass ceiling of their own making (conditioning).

Edited March 14, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

Would there not soon develop a situation where Bhikkhunis outnumbered Bhikkhus by a hundred to one? Would chaos not result in normal society? Would there not be continual arguments between father and daughter, the father wanting his daughter to marry a particular suitor, and the daughter demanding that she be allowed to join the order of Bhikkhunis to achieve full equality with men?

Would there not result a shortage of women in normal society to do the cooking and provide the free food for the deluge of Bhikkhunis and the modest number of Bhikkhus?

Perhaps, but then couldn't you use this very same argument to ponder on what would happen if everyone on the planet decided to ordain?

Unlikely, but would it lead to the human race dieing of starvation en masse?

Hi Rocky,

That's not a realistic scenario in any way. What would happen if everyone on the planet decided to become a carpenter, or a postman, or a teacher, or an astrophysicist? It simply wouldn't be possible because there aren't the vacancies.

Likewise, long before everyone became ordained as a monk, even if they wanted to do so, starvation would force a change in policy. Maybe the Santi Asoke group could manage that, if they allowed the monks to till the soil.

(By the way, I visited a Santi Asoke retreat a couple of months ago near Ubon Ratchathani and was expecting to see monks and nuns tending to the gardens and tilling the soil. I was disappointed to hear from one of the monks who spoke a little English that they weren't allowed to do this because they might accidentally kill a few worms and insects. It seems I'd got it wrong, reading the reports on the internet.)

To continue, since the male is traditionally, and in practice, the bread-winner, it would be technically possible for the Sangha to accommodate larger numbers of women and still feed them.

Certainly, many women may wish for equality, but I'd say most would be thwarted (held back) by a glass ceiling of their own making (conditioning).

I imagine whether one is male or female, the celibate life of a monk will appeal only to certain individuals who are able to perceive the long term benefits and who have the confidence they can deal with the challenges. I also imagine that certain males in modern Buddhist societies, who might find difficulty in finding any sort of job that interests them and that pays reasonably well, might find the 'lazy' and 'relaxed' lifestyle of a monk very appealing, especially if they have a computer and internet connection in their forest hut.

The offer of full equality with men, in the Sangha order, would be a sufficient incentivet to tip the balance in favour of women. They would have more to gain so it is reasonable to expect they would soon outnumber the men.

However, I see another strong reason why those in power in any society would not want such a situation to occur. Women in numbers are more important than men for the propagation of the species. One man and 500 concubines could produce 500 children per year, whereas 500 men and just one woman could produce only one child per year (excluding the rare events of twins and triplets etc).

Having large numbers of celibate women in society is not a good idea. It would increase the rivalry and fighting amongst men, for the favours of the relatively few women available, and would almost certainly reduce the population growth, which might be a good idea in certain modern societies today, with overpopulation a problem, but wouldn't have been appreciated by the ruling class during the times of Gautama.

[rockyysdt]

Hi Rocky,

That's not a realistic scenario in any way. What would happen if everyone on the planet decided to become a carpenter, or a postman, or a teacher, or an astrophysicist? It simply wouldn't be possible because there aren't the vacancies.

Likewise, long before everyone became ordained as a monk, even if they wanted to do so, starvation would force a change in policy. Maybe the Santi Asoke group could manage that, if they allowed the monks to till the soil.

(By the way, I visited a Santi Asoke retreat a couple of months ago near Ubon Ratchathani and was expecting to see monks and nuns tending to the gardens and tilling the soil. I was disappointed to hear from one of the monks who spoke a little English that they weren't allowed to do this because they might accidentally kill a few worms and insects. It seems I'd got it wrong, reading the reports on the internet.)

To continue, since the male is traditionally, and in practice, the bread-winner, it would be technically possible for the Sangha to accommodate larger numbers of women and still feed them.

Certainly, many women may wish for equality, but I'd say most would be thwarted (held back) by a glass ceiling of their own making (conditioning).

I imagine whether one is male or female, the celibate life of a monk will appeal only to certain individuals who are able to perceive the long term benefits and who have the confidence they can deal with the challenges. I also imagine that certain males in modern Buddhist societies, who might find difficulty in finding any sort of job that interests them and that pays reasonably well, might find the 'lazy' and 'relaxed' lifestyle of a monk very appealing, especially if they have a computer and internet connection in their forest hut.

The offer of full equality with men, in the Sangha order, would be a sufficient incentivet to tip the balance in favour of women. They would have more to gain so it is reasonable to expect they would soon outnumber the men.

However, I see another strong reason why those in power in any society would not want such a situation to occur. Women in numbers are more important than men for the propagation of the species. One man and 500 concubines could produce 500 children per year, whereas 500 men and just one woman could produce only one child per year (excluding the rare events of twins and triplets etc).

Having large numbers of celibate women in society is not a good idea. It would increase the rivalry and fighting amongst men, for the favours of the relatively few women available, and would almost certainly reduce the population growth, which might be a good idea in certain modern societies today, with overpopulation a problem, but wouldn't have been appreciated by the ruling class during the times of Gautama.

Hi V.

Agreed, however my response was related to:

"In such a society, imagine what might happen if a new organisation claiming to teach freedom from all types of suffering, were to admit women with full equality to men in all respects. Would there not be a wild rush by women from all quarters in society to grab such opportunity to free themselves, not only from suffering but also to become equal in status to men?

Would there not soon develop a situation where Bhikkhunis outnumbered Bhikkhus by a hundred to one? Would chaos not result in normal society?"

Even if the number of Bikkhunis outnumbered Bikkhus 50 to 1, the affect on the general population would still be negligible given that worldwide Ordained Buddhist Monks is probably less than 0.1% of the population.

The rush of women seeking equality would still be very small indeed, most likely due to a humans ingrained conditioning compelling one to continue toiling in a path set by subconscious programming.

This rush would be further tempered by the drop out rate, once these new devotees start to sample the deluge of thoughts thrown at them by their recalcitrant minds.

[VincentRJ]

Hi Rocky,

That's not a realistic scenario in any way. What would happen if everyone on the planet decided to become a carpenter, or a postman, or a teacher, or an astrophysicist? It simply wouldn't be possible because there aren't the vacancies.

Likewise, long before everyone became ordained as a monk, even if they wanted to do so, starvation would force a change in policy. Maybe the Santi Asoke group could manage that, if they allowed the monks to till the soil.

(By the way, I visited a Santi Asoke retreat a couple of months ago near Ubon Ratchathani and was expecting to see monks and nuns tending to the gardens and tilling the soil. I was disappointed to hear from one of the monks who spoke a little English that they weren't allowed to do this because they might accidentally kill a few worms and insects. It seems I'd got it wrong, reading the reports on the internet.)

To continue, since the male is traditionally, and in practice, the bread-winner, it would be technically possible for the Sangha to accommodate larger numbers of women and still feed them.

Certainly, many women may wish for equality, but I'd say most would be thwarted (held back) by a glass ceiling of their own making (conditioning).

I imagine whether one is male or female, the celibate life of a monk will appeal only to certain individuals who are able to perceive the long term benefits and who have the confidence they can deal with the challenges. I also imagine that certain males in modern Buddhist societies, who might find difficulty in finding any sort of job that interests them and that pays reasonably well, might find the 'lazy' and 'relaxed' lifestyle of a monk very appealing, especially if they have a computer and internet connection in their forest hut.

The offer of full equality with men, in the Sangha order, would be a sufficient incentivet to tip the balance in favour of women. They would have more to gain so it is reasonable to expect they would soon outnumber the men.

However, I see another strong reason why those in power in any society would not want such a situation to occur. Women in numbers are more important than men for the propagation of the species. One man and 500 concubines could produce 500 children per year, whereas 500 men and just one woman could produce only one child per year (excluding the rare events of twins and triplets etc).

Having large numbers of celibate women in society is not a good idea. It would increase the rivalry and fighting amongst men, for the favours of the relatively few women available, and would almost certainly reduce the population growth, which might be a good idea in certain modern societies today, with overpopulation a problem, but wouldn't have been appreciated by the ruling class during the times of Gautama.

Hi V.

Agreed, however my response was related to:

"In such a society, imagine what might happen if a new organisation claiming to teach freedom from all types of suffering, were to admit women with full equality to men in all respects. Would there not be a wild rush by women from all quarters in society to grab such opportunity to free themselves, not only from suffering but also to become equal in status to men?

Would there not soon develop a situation where Bhikkhunis outnumbered Bhikkhus by a hundred to one? Would chaos not result in normal society?"

Even if the number of Bikkhunis outnumbered Bikkhus 50 to 1, the affect on the general population would still be negligible given that worldwide Ordained Buddhist Monks is probably less than 0.1% of the population.

The rush of women seeking equality would still be very small indeed, most likely due to a humans ingrained conditioning compelling one to continue toiling in a path set by subconscious programming.

This rush would be further tempered by the drop out rate, once these new devotees start to sample the deluge of thoughts thrown at them by their recalcitrant minds.

Rocky,

I certainly agree that overpopulation of nuns, or monks, would never be a problem in modern societies. I think in general, religions are currently on the decline. Woman nowadays have much more equality with men than they used to have in the past, so whilst one would expect that reforming the Buddhist monastic rules and practices, and completely removing all discrimination against women would definitely result in an increase in the number of Bhikkhunis, it would not likely be an alarming increase economically, but it might cause the male monks to feel a bit uncomfortable if they are outnumbered by Bhikkhunis.

I was really addressing the historical reasons for this discrimination against women which seems to be embedded in the religion of Buddhism, despite reports that the Buddha admitted that women are able to achieve enlightenment.

I imagine that certain devoutly Buddhist societies in the past would have had a fairly large percentage of the population living the monastic life. Doing a bit of internet research, I came across the following statistic relating to Tibet.

"During the heyday of Tibetan Buddhism, each Tibetan family was required to provide at least one member to become a monk or nun. This is why Tibetan monks and nuns made up 25 percent of the Tibetan population in the 16th century and thereafter."

That's a very significant percentage. If one adds to that the natural unemployment rate of a primitive feudal society, including all the beggars and the homeless, then the percentage of the adult population who were free to engage in productive work, to produce the food and build the houses and the many monasteries that existed before the Chinese invasion of Tibet, would probably have been relatively small.

I imagine the Buddha would have foreseen many practical difficulties in granting full status to women, considering he lived in a similarly unequal society as ancient Tibet, influenced by a rigid caste system which still has a social effect to this day in India.

Here's a relevant extract from Wikipedia:

"When Ywan Chwang (or Yuan Chuang) traveled to South India after the period of the Chalukyan Empire (7th century AD), he noticed that the caste system had existed among the Buddhists and Jains.

In parts of India, such as Ladakh, with significant historical presence of Buddhists, a caste system existed in a manner similar to the caste structure in Tibet. The upper castes belongs to sger gzhis, and they are called sgar pa. The priestly caste belonged to monastery, and are called chos-gzhis. Miser are the serf caste. Serfs, the majority of the people, farmed and paid taxes.

An individual's social status and lifelong occupation was destined by birth, closed, and depending on the family one was born into, the individual inherited a tenure document known as khral-rten. Buddhist castes had sub-castes, such as nang gzan, khral pa and dud chung. Buddhist also had castes that were shunned by their community and ostracised, such as hereditary fishermen, butchers and undertakers. The untouchables in Buddhist regions, as in Tibet, are known as Ragyappa, who lived in isolated ghettos, and their occupation was to remove corpses (human or animal) and dispose of sewage."

Now, please don't think that I'm using such arguments to justify the discrimination of women. Rather, I'm trying to understand how it came about. Why was the Buddha so reluctant to allow women to be ordained, despite admitting that women were capable of achieving enlightenment?

[rockyysdt]

One hypothesis put forward was that dharma went against much of the beliefs (religion & custom) of the day.

One would have to be very careful how to approach the promotion of a new way of thinking and living without fear of persecution and/or ridicule.

A woman's status was already heavily ingrained in society at that time.

A small footnote. Although the workforce in relation to monks in Tibet in the 16th century left relatively few to undertake construction of buildings, in those days structures were well made and often lasted centuries in comparison to the shoddy examples going up today.

[VincentRJ]

One hypothesis put forward was that dharma went against much of the beliefs (religion & custom) of the day.

One would have to be very careful how to approach the promotion of a new way of thinking and living without fear of persecution and/or ridicule.

A woman's status was already heavily ingrained in society at that time.

That makes complete sense to me, Rocky. However, what attracts me towards the philosophy of Buddhism is the existence of teachings such as the Kalama Sutta which advised people not to accept doctrines and customs simply because they are traditional, or because they are written in scriptures, or because a teacher or some other authority claims that certain practices are right and must be followed.

For Buddhist attitudes towards women to change, I think that greater prominence needs to be given to the Kalama Sutta. This Sutta is often dismissed by apologists who claim that it was specifically addressed to an unusually skeptical group of villagers (the Kalamas) who had previously experienced a number of different gurus passing through their village, each expounding different doctrines and offering conflicting advice.

However, as I see it, the whole world has now become like the village of Kesaputta occupied by the Kalamas. We no longer have to rely upon wandering ascetics to physically pass through our place of habitation to advise us how to behave. We have a modern media and education system, and huge, freely available encyclopedias on the internet which can inform us of all the different, authoritative opinions on any subject we care to explore.

The Kalama Sutta is more relevant today than it has ever been.

A small footnote. Although the workforce in relation to monks in Tibet in the 16th century left relatively few to undertake construction of buildings, in those days structures were well made and often lasted centuries in comparison to the shoddy examples going up today.

Different economies, Rocky. Our modern economies are obsessed with continuous economic growth and low unemployment rates. We have the technology to make durable products which could last a lifetime, and longer, but the economy relies upon people buying new clothes, and cars, and TV sets, and houses etc, so what's the point of making something more durable than it needs to be and raising the production cost in the process. Imagine what would happen to the car industry if manufacturers began designing cars to last 20 years with minimum maintenance requirements and a 10 year, unlimited-kilometre warranty.

[rockyysdt]

so what's the point of making something more durable than it needs to be and raising the production cost in the process. Imagine what would happen to the car industry if manufacturers began designing cars to last 20 years with minimum maintenance requirements and a 10 year, unlimited-kilometre warranty.

Granted we shouldn't make things more durable than they need be.

However it is madness to build everything with a limited life purely for profit.

Madness on many levels, not least of all the destruction of our environment.

But getting back to the OP.

Perhaps if women have equal opportunity for ordination, the world might have a less "planned obsolescence" focus.

Edited March 19, 2015 by rockyysdt

[thaicurious]

Speaking of equality, ought that apply to just gender or also orientation?

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/thailand-ban-gays-monkhood260315

Buddhist-majority Thailand has approved a bill that would ban LGBT people from the entering the monkhood.

The junta cabinet approved the bill in August and is now preparing to submit it to the National Legislative Assembly.

Religious authorities have unsuccessfully tried to propose the Bill to Patronize and Protect Buddhism since 2006 but previous military and civilian governments rejected the measure.