Claims of torture over Bangkok court attack materialise

[londonthai]

there are pix as an evidence http://prachatai.org/english/node/4880

That's evidence? He claims "he was slapped on the face, punched on the base on the sternum and in the ribs, trampled on, and electrocuted on his thighs. He was electrocuted almost 40 times, he recounted."

I call bullshit, because this "evidence" shows more proof of not washing than any form of abuse. He should have been more clever and said he'd been waterboarded or denied sleep or something else that doesn't need to show injuries. But then, he follows up description of his "brutal abuse" (that seems to have given him about 10 pimple-size rashes over his torso and legs) with "I support and admire Sinn Féin, Martin Luther King. I don’t believe in violence." Obviously thick as two planks.

but he wasn't water boarded or denied sleep, he was punched in the stomach, ribs, solar plexus, kicked, slapped on the face, trampled.

bruises on the abdomen and burned wounds on the legs are not from not washing. You are trying to twist the facts for political reason

[chooka]

there are pix as an evidence http://prachatai.org/english/node/4880

They aren't sending in doctors for another week so hopefully those bruises will be gone

[Baerboxer]

The Junta now has a history of lying to the people on such matters. Now they turn to martial law to shut up those who want the people to know what is going on behind the scenes.

And your proof is where?

Oh yes, you haven't got any, just an opinion that happens to support your political bias.

One side uses martial law, the other side uses defamation law to shut people up. Same same but different.

[geriatrickid]

The real question here is: To what extent should suspects willing to injure or kill members of the public be protected by standard-rights normally given to suspects??

If torture was indeed used, it might have saved lives!!

These human rights wasters irritate me - as soon as they appear everyone seems to have been tortured. It must be their stock saying "deny everything and tell the media that you were tortured", it doesn't matter that you committed the crimes and weren't tortured just say it.

Thailand gets accused by the Americans of not being democratic and when they 'SUPPOSEDLY' copy their interrogation methods (I don't believe this torture thing) they get crucified!!! Just cannot win can they.

This is not about the USA, as the leading voice in respect to human rights in Thailand has been the EU, with Germany the primary voice. Why bring up the USA? This is solely a Thai domestic issue as to whether or not torture was used. Torture is illegal under Thai law. Your position is that only the laws you agree with need be respected.

Torture is wrong and it doesn't extract useful reliable information.

The groups you call human wasters were certainly useful to you when they took the police and army to task during the drug war period. They were certainly reliable for you when they documented abuse by the military in the South during the previous administrations, so why the sudden shift?

Either there was torture or there wasn't. One won't know if one does not investigate. It certainly is suspicious as to why there was a delay in documenting the physical condition of the prisoners.

Oh and by the way, someone has told a fib. The physical condition of a prisoner is noted in medical files when an exam is conducted. It is not done if intentionally left out. If a patient shows up with a facial wound or bruising it is noted. More likely if someone has back bruising or wounds and the nurse documenting doesn't look through either direct instruction or incompetence, it won't be found.

[alfalfa19]

SOP

[Baerboxer]

there are pix as an evidence http://prachatai.org/english/node/4880

That's evidence? He claims "he was slapped on the face, punched on the base on the sternum and in the ribs, trampled on, and electrocuted on his thighs. He was electrocuted almost 40 times, he recounted."

I call bullshit, because this "evidence" shows more proof of not washing than any form of abuse. He should have been more clever and said he'd been waterboarded or denied sleep or something else that doesn't need to show injuries. But then, he follows up description of his "brutal abuse" (that seems to have given him about 10 pimple-size rashes over his torso and legs) with "I support and admire Sinn Féin, Martin Luther King. I don’t believe in violence." Obviously thick as two planks.

but he wasn't water boarded or denied sleep, he was punched in the stomach, ribs, solar plexus, kicked, slapped on the face, trampled.

bruises on the abdomen and burned wounds on the legs are not from not washing. You are trying to twist the facts for political reason

Twisting the facts - and you're not?

You accept and repeat his claim as if it's a given, undeniable fact.

Of course terrorists don't lie, do they?

[ChrisY1]

Being held illegally, deprivation, torture and beatings for confessions, all part of the legal system here in Thailand

Absolute denials by authorities that this ever occurs....all part of the system as well.......!

[Artisi]

Whatever methods the police have used here, I am quite certain they are behaving better than they under Chalerm where they knew they had complete immunity from investigation.

I see the usual hypocrites on here are crying foul after the red-shirts and the disgracefully biased "HRC" of Thailand made predictable allegations. If you people had made similar comments during Pheu-Thai's time in office when Chalerm predicted the crime on day one then slammed the case shut on day two after full confessions, maybe some of us would listen to you.

Like I keep saying, the Junta is a bad choice from worse options. Nobody is saying they are whiter than white, but they are a step up from that last dirty bunch.

I would suggest the best available at the time compared to the previous mob of spivs, carpet baggers, and brown nosing lackeys.

[Baerboxer]

Thailand must have the highest number of "confessions" in the world.

...........and the highest number of 'Human Right's' induced claims of people being tortured!!!

Wonder if the 2,500 extra judicial execution victims in the infamous "war on drugs" were tortured into confessing first; or just simply shot?

And whose watch was that on again?

[Baerboxer]

Another day and another horrible press headline about the BIB, This one torture

Actually the 2nd horrible headline today ... another one has BIB being charged with murder

Just one disaster after another

Chances of fair trials and being treated equally here are slim to none, and slim has left the building

Interesting that an offices is actually being charged quite quickly after the event.

I doubt that would have happened under the previous regime.

[Baerboxer]

Torture doesn't have to be in the form of physical beatings, how much does water boarding bruise for example?

Marks on the wrist can be put down to a "struggle" when cuffed.

White noise leaves no physical bruising either.

And a person will say anything to stop the abuse

Very true. But Thailand may still be somewhat crude in its approaches and use the older methods of physical beatings, electrocution etc. "Cold war" techniques, whereas the developed (sic) world has become far more sophisticated. And depending on your point of view, effective.

[sweatalot]

It is well known that those sinister red shirt people use to lie. And claiming they have been tortured by the military is there strongest weapon.

Unfortunately the human rights people are easy to fall prey to them.

The military should prevent this by having them checked by independent doctors immidiately when released. A lie detector test regarding being tortured should be performed as well.

Of course the reds will doubt their independence. Nothing what they say should be believed. They lost their credibility completely

[Baerboxer]

Torture doesn't have to be in the form of physical beatings, how much does water boarding bruise for example?

Marks on the wrist can be put down to a "struggle" when cuffed.

White noise leaves no physical bruising either.

And a person will say anything to stop the abuse

On the other hand its not unusual for suspects to say they are tortured either it goes both ways. Anyway if no marks are found then it can't be proved.

I believe torture happens everywhere and the US does it a lot too. (been proven) so its not like only countries like Thailand do it.

I would not be suprised if it had happened in the Netherlands or Uk too.

But it is of course about the frequency of it.

Now everyone is crying foul.. because of the Junta.. but even before this allegations have been made about the police. Plus.. the US is a democracy .. but the CIA torture program has been exposed too.

I am against it of course.. but I am not sure I am always against it.. some say its ineffective.. but with terrorist and lives at stake.. who knows.

Problems with torture is that eventually you will get the answers you want. Unfortunately those answers may come from someone innocent who can no longer tolerate the torture and believes confessing and the punishment better than continuation.

It also presumes guilt. Where security forces use torture to extract further information from those who are undoubtedly guilty, say a terrorist caught in a active operation or with substantial evidence, then I'm also not sure I'm always so against it, especially if it can prevent further attacks.

[whybother]

Being held illegally, deprivation, torture and beatings for confessions, all part of the legal system here in Thailand

Absolute denials by authorities that this ever occurs....all part of the system as well.......!

He wasn't held illegally.

[sweatalot]

And they will be examined next week. When all the bruises are gone. Can't make this stuff up!

And they will be examined next week.

When they had enough time to fabricate impressive bruises.

And TV posters believe them.

Can't make this stuff up

[sweatalot]

Who to believe? There have been highly suspect assertions in the past about torture/forced confessions. Trust is earned, and IMO I can not be sure that these accusations are false, and that there can easily be a certain element of truth contained in these claims. Of course there will be always be exaggeration and denial from both sides.

Prawut said "no examination of the skin was conducted, with the focus on blood pressure, heart-beat rate, and not whether any wounds on the body could have occurred before or after they were placed in military custody." Why not?

Strongly think that suspects should definitely be examined by an independent medical professional BEFORE the suspects are placed in detention.

suspects should definitely be examined by an independent medical professional BEFORE the suspects are placed in detention.

and after.

protects both sides.

[sweatalot]

Even if torture allegations aren't truly torture and/or cannot be proven then it still makes the wording of 'being invited to a military base' completely ridiculous. Clearly people were abducted there and after coming out they are voicing complaints on the way they were treated.

Sure.. Invited.

It may fool some (or even most) people in Thailand (including a disturbingly high number on this forum) but internationally at Human Rights Watch and similar organizations, as well as foreign governments, I bet few are fooled.

It may fool some (or even most) people in Thailand (including a disturbingly high number on this forum) but internationally at Human Rights Watch and similar organizations, as well as foreign governments, I bet few are fooled.

but they were easily fooled by the previous "democratically elected" government.

[JOC]

Unbelievable!!

The Thaivisa hypocrites are out in full force defending terrorists!!

Hope you and your family don't get killed by a grenade thrown by someone, who got off, because the police/army were to soft on them!!

[Lopchan]

More Junta bashing from the TV World Democracy League. If Uncle Sam detains and tortures suspected terrorists its okay, fair bump, play on. If the Thai army / Junta do the same it's a huge outcry. Hypocrites.

[sweatalot]

Torture doesn't have to be in the form of physical beatings, how much does water boarding bruise for example?

Marks on the wrist can be put down to a "struggle" when cuffed.

White noise leaves no physical bruising either.

And a person will say anything to stop the abuse

Right. And now every criminal will claim being tortured - and nobody can prove them wrong.

Edited March 20, 2015 by sweatalot

[angiolo]

Oh I do love to see the fickle finger of fate pointing at someone

[sweatalot]

Being held illegally, deprivation, torture and beatings for confessions, all part of the legal system here in Thailand

Absolute denials by authorities that this ever occurs....all part of the system as well.......!

If this is true then it was true before the present government.

[sweatalot]

there are pix as an evidence http://prachatai.org/english/node/4880

That's evidence? He claims "he was slapped on the face, punched on the base on the sternum and in the ribs, trampled on, and electrocuted on his thighs. He was electrocuted almost 40 times, he recounted."

I call bullshit, because this "evidence" shows more proof of not washing than any form of abuse. He should have been more clever and said he'd been waterboarded or denied sleep or something else that doesn't need to show injuries. But then, he follows up description of his "brutal abuse" (that seems to have given him about 10 pimple-size rashes over his torso and legs) with "I support and admire Sinn Féin, Martin Luther King. I don’t believe in violence." Obviously thick as two planks.

but he wasn't water boarded or denied sleep, he was punched in the stomach, ribs, solar plexus, kicked, slapped on the face, trampled.

bruises on the abdomen and burned wounds on the legs are not from not washing. You are trying to twist the facts for political reason

he was punched in the stomach, ribs, solar plexus, kicked, slapped on the face, trampled.

. You are trying to sell allegations as facts for political reason

[rubl]

The surest method of finding the truth here would be to rush in one or two foreign experts. That should clear this issue once and for all.

Interesting that the Thai Human Rights Lawyers only submitted a letter to the warden of Bangkok Remand Prison to request an independent medical examination to be conducted on the suspects to verify an allegation of torture while under military custody. Of course a lawyer has to do what is in his abilities to do for the person he defends, but I would have expected more.

[EyesWideOpen]

Torture doesn't have to be in the form of physical beatings, how much does water boarding bruise for example?

Marks on the wrist can be put down to a "struggle" when cuffed.

White noise leaves no physical bruising either.

And a person will say anything to stop the abuse

With a bit of research, you will find that electric shock to the genitals

is one of the favorite police torture techniques... Painful beyond

belief, and leaves no marks on the body in case there is a

medical examination later... Just in case you guys are wondering

at the amazing level of police confessions they get. :-)

Edited March 20, 2015 by EyesWideOpen

[KhnomKhnom]

Typists here once again slag on current govt with big gobs of irrationality.

In REAL repressive coup-based governments around the world........

-previous office holders are rounded up and shot or jailed for life.

-people i.d. as possible enemies are rounded up and shot or jailed for life.

-suspects are just beaten to death during questioning.

-the new govt in these OTHER places rounds up foreigners and either shoots them or deports them, especially those who write negatively on thaivisa.

You typists are spoiled babies being coddled by a mild and balanced current Thai government. In a case of REAL REPRESSION and takeover, all you typists right now would be, instead, drumming your swollen fingers on your cell wall or holding your silly heads after the heads met with the telephone book, moving fast.... or the cattle prod applied to your bum opening.

Take a look at Chile, Honduras, Salvador, Argentina, or Sudan.... and then there is VN, Pol Pot, Cambodia and Burma.... all have had a period of textbook case repression. THOSE are repressive governments; Thailand is an ice cream social.

[Fat Haggis]

Torture doesn't have to be in the form of physical beatings, how much does water boarding bruise for example?

Marks on the wrist can be put down to a "struggle" when cuffed.

White noise leaves no physical bruising either.

And a person will say anything to stop the abuse

Very true. But Thailand may still be somewhat crude in its approaches and use the older methods of physical beatings, electrocution etc. "Cold war" techniques, whereas the developed (sic) world has become far more sophisticated. And depending on your point of view, effective.

I would be inclined to agree with a lot of your post, however given that it was recently revealed about the secret CIA camp for extra rendition purposes, I'm almost 90% certain that Thai Intelligence personnel would have been present on many of these "interviews"

Thailand is one of the leading developers of many vaccines etc, they have the ability and the know how to act within the 21st century, I've seen many many many victims of torture gangs in Iraq, after they've been disposed of.

4 of my personal friends were with Gardaworld when they were captured in Iraq and subsequently executed, they were all tortured and there's ways of being able to tell you're under duress, body language is a give away, experts can asses just from video clips if they have been coerced or under duress.

It's bloody hard work knocking 10 Bells of shit out of anyone trying to make them give up their innermost fears, and no I'm not talking about personal experience, but so have worked with many ex Iraqi Intelignece people and sadly its just in their nature to be violent!!

Thailand is really no different, there's always a sick puppy who gets some sexual kicks from torture and empowering people, same the world over again really.

We're these guys tortured? Nobody on here can say 100% yes or no as they were not present on any of the "interview " stages ?

But of you thought it was a way to detract attention, wouldn't you do all you can to discredit your captors?

[Fat Haggis]

Typists here once again slag on current govt with big gobs of irrationality.

In REAL repressive coup-based governments around the world........

-previous office holders are rounded up and shot or jailed for life.

-people i.d. as possible enemies are rounded up and shot or jailed for life.

-suspects are just beaten to death during questioning.

-the new govt in these OTHER places rounds up foreigners and either shoots them or deports them, especially those who write negatively on thaivisa.

You typists are spoiled babies being coddled by a mild and balanced current Thai government. In a case of REAL REPRESSION and takeover, all you typists right now would be, instead, drumming your swollen fingers on your cell wall or holding your silly heads after the heads met with the telephone book, moving fast.... or the cattle prod applied to your bum opening.

Take a look at Chile, Honduras, Salvador, Argentina, or Sudan.... and then there is VN, Pol Pot, Cambodia and Burma.... all have had a period of textbook case repression. THOSE are repressive governments; Thailand is an ice cream social.

How many of these countries did you live in? Thailand is indeed mild to any farang, but you don't have a scooby doo how they treat fellow Thais.

When you start seeing and hearing of farangs being taken to "adjustment" camps come back and preach a bit More ?

[Pi Sek]

there are pix as an evidence http://prachatai.org/english/node/4880

That's evidence? He claims "he was slapped on the face, punched on the base on the sternum and in the ribs, trampled on, and electrocuted on his thighs. He was electrocuted almost 40 times, he recounted."

I call bullshit, because this "evidence" shows more proof of not washing than any form of abuse. He should have been more clever and said he'd been waterboarded or denied sleep or something else that doesn't need to show injuries. But then, he follows up description of his "brutal abuse" (that seems to have given him about 10 pimple-size rashes over his torso and legs) with "I support and admire Sinn Féin, Martin Luther King. I don’t believe in violence." Obviously thick as two planks.

but he wasn't water boarded or denied sleep, he was punched in the stomach, ribs, solar plexus, kicked, slapped on the face, trampled.

bruises on the abdomen and burned wounds on the legs are not from not washing. You are trying to twist the facts for political reason

I am not twisting any facts, I am stating an opinion that I do not believe the images you showed demonstrate that there was any torture. The image that you showed did not show bruising as far as I could tell. It looks like he has a rash to me. That is my opinion, and not facts.

I believe you are twisting the facts. You are talking about the "fact" that the "victim" is "bruised". I do not think this is a fact, because I don't see any bruising; I think this is your opinion, which I expect is twisted for political reason, like most of your posts. You, sir, are a hypocrite... there's a fact for you.

Others are able to form their own opinion by clicking on your link. I won't attack them for forming their own opinion... will you?

[rubl]

Typists here once again slag on current govt with big gobs of irrationality.

In REAL repressive coup-based governments around the world........

-previous office holders are rounded up and shot or jailed for life.

-people i.d. as possible enemies are rounded up and shot or jailed for life.

-suspects are just beaten to death during questioning.

-the new govt in these OTHER places rounds up foreigners and either shoots them or deports them, especially those who write negatively on thaivisa.

You typists are spoiled babies being coddled by a mild and balanced current Thai government. In a case of REAL REPRESSION and takeover, all you typists right now would be, instead, drumming your swollen fingers on your cell wall or holding your silly heads after the heads met with the telephone book, moving fast.... or the cattle prod applied to your bum opening.

Take a look at Chile, Honduras, Salvador, Argentina, or Sudan.... and then there is VN, Pol Pot, Cambodia and Burma.... all have had a period of textbook case repression. THOSE are repressive governments; Thailand is an ice cream social.

How many of these countries did you live in? Thailand is indeed mild to any farang, but you don't have a scooby doo how they treat fellow Thais.

When you start seeing and hearing of farangs being taken to "adjustment" camps come back and preach a bit More ?

As I seriously doubt that many of the posters here have actually lived in Thailand, (rather than having been here) I think your question suggest that those should shut up. IMHO.