Non-O based on Marriage

[inthanet]

Hi,

i prepare at moment all documents to get married and to apply in future for an non-o based on marriage.

I'm German and it's not easy to deal with German Authorities. No "Fast Lane"!

Hopefully somebody in this forum has already experience with all the paper work has to be done

before I can go to the local "Amphoe" to register the marriage in Thailand.

My fiancee was married with an Thai man and become divorced in 2012.

They divorced by the local "Amphoe" and she got an divorce certificate.

The responsible office in Germany (Standesamt) told me that the divorce certificate

must approved from senate administration in Germany, fee up to 160 Euro. Waiting

time a few weeks or month.

Question, somebody in this forum has made this?

or is there an other way because the divorce certificate is from an Thai authority.

Thanks in advance

Uwe

Edited March 20, 2015 by inthanet

[ubonjoe]

Since your fiancee is a Thai citizen and got married and divorced here I cannot see how or why you would need anything from Germany. It certainly will not be needed to register your marriage at the Amphoe.

I think they mean if you got divorced in Germany that would be needed.

The embassy should have no concern about your fiancee's marital status.

All you need from them is a affirmation of permit to marry.

[inthanet]

Hi ubonjoe,

German authorities are a nightmare!

Problem is, i need a certificate "authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry" from the German authority.

This office need also all information from my fiancee! They told me the documents from an "private" divorce would

no be accepted. What means I will not get the certificate "authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry" until

they have all documents as they want.

[ubonjoe]

I cannot see a divorce here being considered private. It is all done officially at the Amphoe and a divorce decree is issued. Perhaps a translation of the divorce divorce would be all that is needed.

I cannot see how it would be possible to get anything from Germany since she did not get divorced there.

[Mario2008]

Seems a lot of confusion here.

For the affirmation letter you provide your own details, including details about any divorce. You would probably provide her name for the letter, but not her divorce details etc. Only your own.

More details on the German embassy's website: http://www.bangkok.diplo.de/Vertretung/bangkok/de/04/2-Eheschliessung/0-Eheschliessung.html

Your wife to be has all details all ready at the amphur and when getting married supplies her divorce decree to the amphur and you and her get a nice wedding certificate.

[nofarang]

I sent a Board Mail to you

[ubonjoe]

A post in German has been removed. English is the only language allowed on this forum.

[inthanet]

Unfortunately I told the German Authority already that my fiancee is divorced

at the Amphoe. That's why they told me i have to approve the divorce certificate.

"nofarang" had a good idea, translate the divorce certificate into German language and

let the German Embassy confirm that's correct. This may be enough because it's

a German authority which confirm the validity of the document.

[gandalf12]

As has been said all you need is an affirmation for you to marry. The amphoe in Thailand will deal with your to wife's details which will probably be just the divorce certificate.

[nzexpat]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

As has been said all you need is an affirmation for you to marry. The amphoe in Thailand will deal with your to wife's details which will probably be just the divorce certificate.

You are failing to appreciate that the German authorities will not issue the OP with an affirmation until they are satisfied with his fiancee's social status.

The situation appears to be complex.

Full information (if you can read /understand German) can be found on the Bangkok German Embassy web site.

[Ballbearing]

Hi ubonjoe,

German authorities are a nightmare!

Problem is, i need a certificate "authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry" from the German authority.

This office need also all information from my fiancee! They told me the documents from an "private" divorce would

no be accepted. What means I will not get the certificate "authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry" until

they have all documents as they want.

And people continue to complain on TV about Thai authorities ???

This is utter BS from the German authorities.

It has got nothing to do with the German authorities who the OP wants to marry.

The Thai authorities require an authenticated document from the German authorities to show the OP is free to marry - meaning proof HE is currently not married.

I took my divorce papers into the NZ embassy in Bangkok - had them authenticated.

They couldn't care less who I was marrying (as it is none of their business) - I now had an "authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry"

My wife took her Thai divorce papers into the Amphoe and with both documents checked by the Thai authorities we were free to marry.

I cannot believe the German authorities have to "approve" your future wife ?

Good luck anyway,

Cheers,

BB

[inthanet]

Hi ubonjoe,

German authorities are a nightmare!

Problem is, i need a certificate "authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry" from the German authority.

This office need also all information from my fiancee! They told me the documents from an "private" divorce would

no be accepted. What means I will not get the certificate "authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry" until

they have all documents as they want.

And people continue to complain on TV about Thai authorities ???

This is utter BS from the German authorities.

It has got nothing to do with the German authorities who the OP wants to marry.

The Thai authorities require an authenticated document from the German authorities to show the OP is free to marry - meaning proof HE is currently not married.

I took my divorce papers into the NZ embassy in Bangkok - had them authenticated.

They couldn't care less who I was marrying (as it is none of their business) - I now had an "authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry"

My wife took her Thai divorce papers into the Amphoe and with both documents checked by the Thai authorities we were free to marry.

I cannot believe the German authorities have to "approve" your future wife ?

Good luck anyway,

Cheers,

BB

Hi,

I'm not complaining about Thai or German authorities, is the German authorities who make it only complicated.

Problem or lat me say the situation is follow:

I contacted the responsible office in Germany and asking for the document

"authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry". I got told to get this document I have to apply

by using a special form and have to fill in all. When I saw the form there was many question about my fiancee.

One of these question was about her marital status. My answer was DIVORCED. The office was asking back

how she divorced in Thailand, Civil or via Court decision, my answer civil. After them was some discuss

what finally was ending that i got told the divorce certificate has to approve in Berlin first otherwise they (the authority)

could not give me the "authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry".

As you see NO complains only matters of fact.

I let translate the divorce certificate from my fiancee and try that the German embassy

confirm the legal effect of the document.

Edited March 21, 2015 by inthanet

[Ballbearing]

Inthanet,

My comments were not directed at you - apologies if it appeared that way,

Regards,

BB

[inthanet]

Inthanet,

My comments were not directed at you - apologies if it appeared that way,

Regards,

BB

Never mind, i agree with you I don't like that a lot of people complain about

things in Thailand. I'm the mind we all came in this country because we

like to do it. Everybody can go back where he/she comes from.

You know it's not only in Thailand. I was living 4 years in Spain.

There was the same situation. Some people told me Spain is quite nice

but the only thing we don't need is the "Spanish People"

Anyway, i have to find the right way to deal with the authorities.

Regards,

Uwe

Edited March 21, 2015 by inthanet

[andy9469]

A German who wants to marry in Thailand needs a certificate "authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry" (Ledigkeitsbescheinigung) from his (last) registered place in Germany. Unfortunately, for this document the local registrations office asks for the details of the spouse and in case of a divorce the divorce certificate must be authenticated by a German authority.

I know a case where the (translated) Thai divorce document was sent from the local community (Gemeinde) to the county (Landkreis), then to the state (Munich) and got finally confirmed by the authority in charge in Berlin. I don't remember exactly which authority in Berlin, I guess a part of the foreign office. I think the cost was "only" 40 Euros but it took a few months. If you find out which authority in Berlin you may ask your local registration office (Standesamt) to send it directly to Berlin.

To get a marriage registered in Thailand you need any official Document (from Germany) stating that you are single (ledig). If you are still registered in Germany you may try to get an extended record of your registered details (erweiterte Meldeauskunft). I think this is an official document and it states your marital status.

You can try to do the American (and I think Australian) way. They go to their Embassy and make an affidavit (eidesstattliche Erklärung), stating their personal details including their marital status. I’m not sure if you can do this at the German embassy but you may try a German Honorary Consul in Thailand.

If you get the “authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry” it needs to be translated and legalized by the German Embassy (80 Euros). Then it needs to be legalized by the Thai foreign ministry (400 Baht or, express within a few hours if you arrive before 11 am, 800 Baht).

You can marry in Thailand at any district office, not necessarily where you live or your Thai partner is registered. Usually it’s called Amphoe ( อำเภอ ) but in Bangkok it’s called Keed ( เขต ). If you check out different places you may find a district officer who doesn’t make a big fuss about all the documents, certifications and translations. They can ask you for many documents but they don’t have to. It may also work with an affidavit (eidesstattliche Erklärung) at the Amphoe if they believe you.

By the way: I got the affirmation from the German registration office without my wife’s birth certificate but it needed some research and explanation.

[inthanet]

A German who wants to marry in Thailand needs a certificate "authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry" (Ledigkeitsbescheinigung) from his (last) registered place in Germany. Unfortunately, for this document the local registrations office asks for the details of the spouse and in case of a divorce the divorce certificate must be authenticated by a German authority.

I know a case where the (translated) Thai divorce document was sent from the local community (Gemeinde) to the county (Landkreis), then to the state (Munich) and got finally confirmed by the authority in charge in Berlin. I don't remember exactly which authority in Berlin, I guess a part of the foreign office. I think the cost was "only" 40 Euros but it took a few months. If you find out which authority in Berlin you may ask your local registration office (Standesamt) to send it directly to Berlin.

To get a marriage registered in Thailand you need any official Document (from Germany) stating that you are single (ledig). If you are still registered in Germany you may try to get an extended record of your registered details (erweiterte Meldeauskunft). I think this is an official document and it states your marital status.

You can try to do the American (and I think Australian) way. They go to their Embassy and make an affidavit (eidesstattliche Erklärung), stating their personal details including their marital status. I’m not sure if you can do this at the German embassy but you may try a German Honorary Consul in Thailand.

If you get the “authenticated affirmation of freedom to marry” it needs to be translated and legalized by the German Embassy (80 Euros). Then it needs to be legalized by the Thai foreign ministry (400 Baht or, express within a few hours if you arrive before 11 am, 800 Baht).

You can marry in Thailand at any district office, not necessarily where you live or your Thai partner is registered. Usually it’s called Amphoe ( อำเภอ ) but in Bangkok it’s called Keed ( เขต ). If you check out different places you may find a district officer who doesn’t make a big fuss about all the documents, certifications and translations. They can ask you for many documents but they don’t have to. It may also work with an affidavit (eidesstattliche Erklärung) at the Amphoe if they believe you.

By the way: I got the affirmation from the German registration office without my wife’s birth certificate but it needed some research and explanation.

The authority in Berlin is "Senatsverwaltung für Justiz" http://www.berlin.de/sen/justiz/struktur/a2_ausl_scheidg_hinw.html

and they charge for this "Service" minimum 15 Euro up to 305 Euro, depending on the case.

As you mentioned before it need a few week up to a few month.

What you are suggesting "America/Australian way " i will do.

What exact you mean with "It may also work with an affidavit (eidesstattliche Erklärung) at the Amphoe if they believe you" ?

Edited March 21, 2015 by inthanet

[andy9469]

If you speak Thai (or have an acknowledged translator), the Thai official at the Amphoe may believe you "swearing on oath" that you are single and free to marry. Doing this in Thai language isn't different to doing it in your mother language and get it translated and certified by the embassy. But you have to find a Thai who doesn't mind to make things easy for farangs. I just read something that Bang Rak in BKK is probably the best place for farangs to get a marriage registered, but I don't know what they require.

[nzexpat]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

If you speak Thai (or have an acknowledged translator), the Thai official at the Amphoe may believe you "swearing on oath" that you are single and free to marry. Doing this in Thai language isn't different to doing it in your mother language and get it translated and certified by the embassy. But you have to find a Thai who doesn't mind to make things easy for farangs. I just read something that Bang Rak in BKK is probably the best place for farangs to get a marriage registered, but I don't know what they require.

"Swearing on oath" at an 'amphur' or 'khet' is NOT an option available to a foreigner wishing to marry in Thailand.

"In order for foreigners to get married in Thailand they must have clearance from their Embassy. Embassies of different countries have different procedures for providing this clearance. In general, the Thai district offices that perform marriages require affidavits that assert the name of the foreigner, as well as personal details such as confirmed citizenship of that country and legal freedom to marry. Once those foreign affidavits are obtained, they must be translated into Thai and legalized pursuant to Thai law. At that point parties must proceed to the necessary district office for an administrative Thailand marriage." *

* Source

http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/marriage.html

[andy9469]

This comes probably from the same people who tell you that you need your (Thai) wife's birth certificate and I did it definitely without! But there were 'helpful' people at the Amphoe (or some worker's friends) who could have gotten me a copy of her birth certificate (and some other papers they thought I need) for 26.000 Baht. I don’t know if there is a Thai law telling the person in charge at the Amphoe what specific documentation each foreigner needs but when you can get this person to issue, sign and stamp a marriage certificate then you are legally married (in Thailand).

[inthanet]

Thanks guys,

i got some ideas from the discuss here. I will start on Monday to get again in contact to the embassy and the German authorities.

I will try different ways more as get refused at the Ampoeh can not happen. hopefully it works

If I see nothing works I have to go the "German" way ()

When I got married i will post about this case again and let you now what finally was working.

This will need time i guess

[nzexpat]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Thanks guys,

i got some ideas from the discuss here. I will start on Monday to get again in contact to the embassy and the German authorities.

I will try different ways more as get refused at the Ampoeh can not happen. alt=wai2.gif width=20 height=20> hopefully it works alt=wub.png>

If I see nothing works I have to go the "German" way ( alt=bah.gif>)

When I got married i will post about this case again and let you now what finally was working.

This will need time i guess alt=coffee1.gif width=32 height=24>

If you wish to get married in Thailand you will have little option but to go the "German" way.

Securing an affidavit which details your "freedom to marry" is crucial and can only be obtained from the German authorities/Embassy.

Once the affidavit is obtained do not forget it will have to be translated and certified by the MFA

[cooked]

If you speak Thai (or have an acknowledged translator), the Thai official at the Amphoe may believe you "swearing on oath" that you are single and free to marry. Doing this in Thai language isn't different to doing it in your mother language and get it translated and certified by the embassy. But you have to find a Thai who doesn't mind to make things easy for farangs. I just read something that Bang Rak in BKK is probably the best place for farangs to get a marriage registered, but I don't know what they require.

I believe that this is possible.For a non internet knowledgeable German friend I obtained his birth certificate, marriage certificate and divorce papers from Germany. However obtaining the 'freedom to marry' paper appeared horrendous and I went on strike.

His fiancée asked at the Amphoe and was told that the FTM wasn't necessary. Sounds like money may be going under the table here. When I got my first marriage extension Immigration insisted on seeing my FTM document (&lt;deleted&gt;?), which should have been at the Amphoe but which we had at home. I now understand why they wanted to see that paper. I guess that a Thai marriage certificate that has no FTM attached might only be good for getting three month extensions somewhere.

[nzexpat]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

If you speak Thai (or have an acknowledged translator), the Thai official at the Amphoe may believe you "swearing on oath" that you are single and free to marry. Doing this in Thai language isn't different to doing it in your mother language and get it translated and certified by the embassy. But you have to find a Thai who doesn't mind to make things easy for farangs. I just read something that Bang Rak in BKK is probably the best place for farangs to get a marriage registered, but I don't know what they require.

I believe that this is possible.For a non internet knowledgeable German friend I obtained his birth certificate, marriage certificate and divorce papers from Germany. However obtaining the 'freedom to marry' paper appeared horrendous and I went on strike.

His fiancée asked at the Amphoe and was told that the FTM wasn't necessary. Sounds like money may be going under the table here. When I got my first marriage extension Immigration insisted on seeing my FTM document (<deleted>?), which should have been at the Amphoe but which we had at home. I now understand why they wanted to see that paper. I guess that a Thai marriage certificate that has no FTM attached might only be good for getting three month extensions somewhere.

A "marriage" conducted outside the rules is at best going to be invalid and and at worse criminal

[inthanet]

If you speak Thai (or have an acknowledged translator), the Thai official at the Amphoe may believe you "swearing on oath" that you are single and free to marry. Doing this in Thai language isn't different to doing it in your mother language and get it translated and certified by the embassy. But you have to find a Thai who doesn't mind to make things easy for farangs. I just read something that Bang Rak in BKK is probably the best place for farangs to get a marriage registered, but I don't know what they require.

I believe that this is possible.For a non internet knowledgeable German friend I obtained his birth certificate, marriage certificate and divorce papers from Germany. However obtaining the 'freedom to marry' paper appeared horrendous and I went on strike.

His fiancée asked at the Amphoe and was told that the FTM wasn't necessary. Sounds like money may be going under the table here. When I got my first marriage extension Immigration insisted on seeing my FTM document (<deleted>?), which should have been at the Amphoe but which we had at home. I now understand why they wanted to see that paper. I guess that a Thai marriage certificate that has no FTM attached might only be good for getting three month extensions somewhere.

MMM, this is an important information (...Immigration insisted on seeing my FTM document ...)

If I understand this correct than the FTM needed also for Visa extension?

Can somebody confirm this?

Edited March 21, 2015 by inthanet

[ubonjoe]

There a few immigration offices that will want the affirmation of permit to marry when applying for the first extension of stay based upon marriage.

That does not mean it has to be the long tedious one from Germany. It could be the affidavit that has been discussed.

[andy9469]

In the ‘normal’ German way is no affidavit involved, German bureaucracy is better developed. The FTM (‘Ehefähigkeitszeugnis’) was originally invented for foreigners who intend to marry in Germany. Later the German administration found out that it can also be used for Germans who want to marry abroad but is not exactly the same. Even most German officials don’t know that and say ‘it’s the same’.

An affidavit does not verify information. It states the information the person gives and that there are legal consequences if this information is not correct. But as it’s made at the embassy the seal gives it an official character. Any other document with a seal saying that you are single probably verifies the fact that you are single more than an affidavit. The ‘instrument’ affidavit has probably been abused by some foreigners for their extension of stay based on retirement as Thai Immigration may ask now for supplying evidence.

Thais don’t need many documents for getting married and foreigners have to provide documents (and translations) with the same information. I don’t think Thai law makes a difference between foreigners. Why should it then be easier for foreigners from certain countries?

I don’t think Thai law says that every document that a foreigner provides needs to be legalized. If there is no hint that the document is falsified or the Thai official has seen this kind of document/seal before he/she may believe that the document is authentic. If he/she doesn’t believe then the document needs to be legalized which means you need your embassy and the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Talking to a Thai official and explaining that there are other documents providing the same information is not criminal. As long as you don’t lie, don’t provide false information, don’t falsify documents or provide falsified documents you don’t commit a crime.

I’m not sure whether Thai Immigration wants the original FTM (‘Ehefähigkeitszeugnis’) for the first extension of stay based on marriage. Then they could also ask for a copy of the complete file from the Amphoe or question the Amphoe’s competence. I can’t imagine a Thai law saying that you have to keep this document as it’s useless after the registration of marriage and you can’t get it again as you aren’t single anymore. Thai Immigration always asks for prove that you are still married which is a document that you can get easily at any Amphoe for 20 or 30 Baht.

If Thai Immigration (or anybody) thinks the Thai marriage certificate is based on incorrect documentation this person needs some prove, has to make an accusation and ask to open an investigation. As long as the marriage document is not officially revoked it's still valid.

I think the FTM (‘Ehefähigkeitszeugnis’) can only be used in Germany to obtain a Visa. If you want to get a visa in other countries you would need, at least, a translation and the FTM is only valid for 6 months anyway.