For the building experts

[Anthony5]

Today I noticed by coincidence that the tiles marked in the picture including the grouts sounded hollow.

Since the grouts, which are several centimeter wide also sound hollow, it can't be just from the cement under the tile having been wrong mixed.

On the corner of the wall is obvious a column, so it may have moved or settled since the building. The building is about 4 years old.

Close look shows 2 or 3 very fine hairline cracks in the grout, no cracks in the tiles, and also no loose tiles. It just sound hollow when you drop something on them.

I noticed that there are a few similar small areas at other locations around the house, always near a column.

Should i start to worry, or is this normal occurrence in a construction

[cooked]

We have this also, and I am not going to worry until they break. My SIL laid the tiles using cement as an adhesive, mostly OK but I know exactly where the tiles make this noise. I will be laying the next lot myself using a tiling adhesive and a notched trowel applicator (or what ever you call it). Grout can age quickly and need replacement after four or five years, don't worry about cracks, grouting can be replaced! In fact don't worry about anything until something serious happens. Cracks near columns: often enough you get cracks in the walls also near columns due to settlement.

Maybe you should ensure that you have a few tiles of the same pattern as replacement. The above mentioned SIL had to finish his house with different tiles to what he started with... he doesn't care much but I'm sure many of us would.

[Anthony5]

I have plenty of tiles left to replace, that's not my worry.

You will notice that it are two rows of tiles next to each other that sound hollow, while the tiles above and under and left and right used the same cement. The grout is sandwash, and is cement of it's own.

I'm confident that this has to do with the settlement of the column or foundation, but I'm not sure if I have reason to worry.

I'm not the kind of person that waits for something serious to happen before taking action.

[cooked]

Nothing horrible is going to happen, maybe one day you will notice some cracked tiles and that will be the time to act and decide.

(Edit): Farangs worry about next winter. Thais worry about their next meal.

Edited March 22, 2015 by cooked

[pigeonjake]

it will be settlement mate, we have it here in our house, we had some cracks in the wall, i just got the builder back, paid for the proper crack filler told him to grind out the crack and fill,

thats why in the uk you get 10 years HSB garantee with a new house, they have to settle anywere in the world its not just here,

and the cement that the other poster says isnt tile cement you can get cement that is for tiles, looks like normal cement but they call it stickt cement, its very good stuff by the way,

i wouldnt worry to much, if you have a steel ring round you house, the steel they put on top of your posts that are welded and support your roof, this will do a great deal to hold all things together,

regards

jake

[weegee]

Anthony...The noisy tiles are the ones that dont have enough cement under them and have formed air pockets....Thats the easiest way to explain it...

To check your tiles are laid properly, when the tiles are put down, walk around and using a 20cent coin (silver type), drop it from about knee height and if it sounds hollow, it is because not enough cement was used to bed the tile in.....as you go around you will notice the difference in the correct laid tile and the ones that arent....try it...The good ones make a solid type of sound...the ones with not enough cement sound hollow.

[eyecatcher]

Agree with weegee nothing to do with settlement.

My guess is that you had this echo from day 1 but never noticed.

The hollow sound is typical of a thai tilers 4 blobs of mortar and sit the tile on.

I know because i tiled my bathroom floor last year on an existing conc floor but around the wc i had to be careful; za

[IMHO]

I also agree this is nothing to do with the house settling. Seeing as both the tiles and the sandwash are lifting, it suggests a bad bond to the underlying slab in the first place. Maybe someone just didn't clean the slab properly first, or some chemical got spilled there.

Edited March 23, 2015 by IMHO

[transam]

Anthony...The noisy tiles are the ones that dont have enough cement under them and have formed air pockets....Thats the easiest way to explain it...

To check your tiles are laid properly, when the tiles are put down, walk around and using a 20cent coin (silver type), drop it from about knee height and if it sounds hollow, it is because not enough cement was used to bed the tile in.....as you go around you will notice the difference in the correct laid tile and the ones that arent....try it...The good ones make a solid type of sound...the ones with not enough cement sound hollow.

Yep, in fact you can walk around with a stick and tap, all will be revealed..

[eyecatcher]

Agree with weegee nothing to do with settlement.

My guess is that you had this echo from day 1 but never noticed.

The hollow sound is typical of a thai tilers 4 blobs of mortar and sit the tile on.

I know because i tiled my bathroom floor last year on an existing conc floor but around the wc i had to be careful; .....no i didnt die.....

So i decided to do the 5 blob fix as it was a cut tile and difficult to do a tradit spread.

One year later there is resounding hollow sound and I dread the day I drop a glass on it.

I shouldnt worry unduly.....again the area you highlight looks like it may have been the last to be done.

[weegee]

Agree with weegee nothing to do with settlement.

My guess is that you had this echo from day 1 but never noticed.

The hollow sound is typical of a thai tilers 4 blobs of mortar and sit the tile on.

I know because i tiled my bathroom floor last year on an existing conc floor but around the wc i had to be careful; .....no i didnt die.....

So i decided to do the 5 blob fix as it was a cut tile and difficult to do a tradit spread.

One year later there is resounding hollow sound and I dread the day I drop a glass on it.

I shouldnt worry unduly.....again the area you highlight looks like it may have been the last to be done.

Be a bugger if it was done like that throughout hey?

[Anthony5]

I understand that it are air pockets, but imo if it was about a bad bond, it would be random tiles and not 11 tiles connected to each other.

Since the grout is about 3 cm wide, you will understand that the tiles were laid separately, and that the cement under the tiles is not connected to each other.

The sandwash grout is done later and is straight on the base, not on tile cement, so when the tiles have an air pocket doesn't mean that the grout automatically will have one also.

Another thing I notice is that all the areas where I detect this symptom is next to a column. Is this coincidence?

[weegee]

I understand that it are air pockets, but imo if it was about a bad bond, it would be random tiles and not 11 tiles connected to each other.

Since the grout is about 3 cm wide, you will understand that the tiles were laid separately, and that the cement under the tiles is not connected to each other.

The sandwash grout is done later and is straight on the base, not on tile cement, so when the tiles have an air pocket doesn't mean that the grout automatically will have one also.

Another thing I notice is that all the areas where I detect this symptom is next to a column. Is this coincidence?

Did the tiler mix the cement from scratch , or did he use the bagged stuff they use for tiles?

[IMHO]

Another thing I notice is that all the areas where I detect this symptom is next to a column. Is this coincidence?

Most likely, yes.

I don't suppose they used this area to store any paint, thinners, or cement bags during construction?

or... the sandstone tile sealant?

Edited March 23, 2015 by IMHO

[Anthony5]

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I understand that it are air pockets, but imo if it was about a bad bond, it would be random tiles and not 11 tiles connected to each other.

Since the grout is about 3 cm wide, you will understand that the tiles were laid separately, and that the cement under the tiles is not connected to each other.

The sandwash grout is done later and is straight on the base, not on tile cement, so when the tiles have an air pocket doesn't mean that the grout automatically will have one also.

Another thing I notice is that all the areas where I detect this symptom is next to a column. Is this coincidence?

Did the tiler mix the cement from scratch , or did he use the bagged stuff they use for tiles?

The tiler mixed his own cement

Another thing I notice is that all the areas where I detect this symptom is next to a column. Is this coincidence?

Most likely, yes.

I don't suppose they used this area to store any paint, thinners, or cement bags during construction?

or... the sandstone tile sealant?

After all those years it's difficult to check if and what has been stored in that area, but other sections that have the same symptom are at completely other areas of the house.

One section for example is the first 2 rows from the wall, while the next 2 rows sound solid, and is exactly the space between 2 columns.

The wall is 6 meter long, and the section is 3 meter from the corner column to the middle column, while the next 3 meter doesn't have the problem

[weegee]

Anthony...unfortunately, it sounds like the tiler didnt mix the cement properly from one day to the next....hence the discrepencies. At least thats what it sounds like to me....

[steve187]

Tiles laid in Thailand are mostly laid the sand and cement way, (as i did in the UK 30+ years ago,) the UK has moved with the times but Thailand is in a time warp.

ceramic and quarry type tiles are ok'ish laid with sand and cement as long as the tiles are soaked in water for some time before fixing. Porcelain tiles should never be laid with sand and cement as they will not stick, they will only imprint the back of the tile into the mix. porcelain should never be wetted prior to fixing even with tile adhesive.

also in Thailand they butt join the tiles leaving no room for expansion which may cause the tiles to lift/ bow away from the sand and cement mix.

To answer Anthony5 question the hollow sounding tiles are not stuck to the sand cement mix they are just held by the weight and the surrounding grout, which looking at your picture is not grout but a resin sand cement mix where they acid the top to leave the grit exposed.

If anyone is thinking of tackling some tiling themselves then please use a good brand of adhesive, suitable for the location, ( indoor or outdoor) and type of ' tile' , as well as a deep notched trowel at least 10mm notch for floors and bigger if large format tiles. and please use some 3mm spacers. Porcelain will always need a flexible adhesive and grout.

edit - spelling

Edited March 23, 2015 by steve187

[Anthony5]

Tiles laid in Thailand are mostly laid the sand and cement way, (as i did in the UK 30+ years ago,) the UK has moved with the times but Thailand is in a time warp.

ceramic and quarry type tiles are ok'ish laid with sand and cement as long as the tiles are soaked in water for some time before fixing. Porcelain tiles should never be laid with sand and cement as they will not stick, they will only imprint the back of the tile into the mix. porcelain should never be wetted prior to fixing even with tile adhesive.

also in Thailand they butt join the tiles leaving no room for expansion which may cause the tiles to lift/ bow away from the sand and cement mix.

To answer Anthony5 question the hollow sounding tiles are not stuck to the sand cement mix they are just held by the weight and the surrounding grout, which looking at your picture is not grout but a resin sand cement mix where they acid the top to leave the grit exposed.

If anyone is thinking of tackling some tiling themselves then please use a good brand of adhesive, suitable for the location, ( indoor or outdoor) and type of ' tile' , as well as a deep notched trowel at least 10mm notch for floors and bigger if large format tiles. and please use some 3mm spacers. Porcelain will always need a flexible adhesive and grout.

edit - spelling

Thanks for the explanation. The tiles are clay and have been soaked in water prior to laying.

I understand that they can detach from the cement mix, but how do you explain that is always near a column, and that also the sandwash which is a completely different mix detaches between the tiles that have detached?

[eyecatcher]

This style of tiling is often used outside and when i watch them do it they bed each tile individually.

All set out with string lines they are bedded on cement dabs.

Thrn next day they fill in the middle and prepare the sandwash finish.

As I alluded to in earlier post I think the ones around columns and awkward spots and cuts were left until the following day and didnt receive the same attention..

Actually looks like a very nice job.