Greece fights German bailout demands with Nazi-era claims

[webfact]

Greece fights German bailout demands with Nazi-era claims
By FRANK JORDANS

BERLIN (AP) — It was 1943 and the Nazis were deporting Greece's Jews to death camps in Poland. Hitler's genocidal accountants reserved a chilling twist: The Jews had to pay their train fare.

The bill for 58,585 Jews sent to Auschwitz and other camps exceeded 2 million Reichsmark — more than 25 million euros ($27 million) in today's money.

For decades, this was a forgotten footnote among all of the greater horrors of the Holocaust. Today it is returning to the fore amid the increasingly bitter row between Athens and Berlin over the Greek financial bailout.

Jewish leaders in Thessaloniki, home to Greece's largest Jewish community, say they are considering how to reclaim the rail fares from Germany — with seven decades of interest.

"We will study the law and do our best to claim," the community's president, David Saltiel, told The Associated Press.

Such a move would suit the new government in Athens, which is trying to shift the public focus from Greece's current debt crisis to Germany's World War II debts ahead of Monday's first visit to Berlin by Greece's new Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras.

While war reparations have been a staple demand of previous Greek governments, Tsipras' radical left government has made the issue a central part of the bailout negotiations with Germany. The Germans have dismissed such demands, saying compensation issues were settled decades ago in post-war accords.

Billions of euros in rescue loans from other European countries and the International Monetary Fund have saved Greece from bankruptcy since 2010. Germany, the largest contributor to the bailout, has been vocal in pressing Greece to cut back on government spending to bring its finances under control.

But the Greeks point out that, following its wartime defeat, Germany received one of the biggest bailouts in modern history within a decade of laying waste to much of Europe. Greece was among 22 countries that agreed to halve Germany's foreign debt at a 1953 conference in London.

Even some German politicians have called for a change of heart on the reparations issue. They argue that if Germany doesn't confront its World War II guilt, it cannot expect other countries to repay their more recent debts. The point has particular resonance in Germany because, in German, guilt and debt are the same word: Schuld.

Among the claims that Greece, or individual Greeks, might bring against Germany:

— Tens, possibly hundreds, of billions of euros (dollars) in present-day money as compensation for destroyed infrastructure and goods, including archaeological treasures, looted by the Nazis from 1941 to 1944.

— Compensation for the estimated 300,000 people who died from famine during the winter of 1941-1942.

— Compensation for the slaughter of civilians as reprisals for partisan attacks. One of the most infamous massacres took place in the Greek village of Distomo on June 10, 1944, when Waffen-SS soldiers killed more than 200 women, children and elderly residents. Another in Kalavryta in December 1943 involved German troops killing more than 500 civilians, including virtually all of the town's males aged 14 or over.

— Repayment of some 1.9 billion drachmas, around 50 million euros ($55 million) today, that the Jewish community paid as ransom to occupying authorities in 1942 in return for 10,000 Jewish men being held as slave laborers. The men were released only to be sent to concentration camps the following year.

— Repayment of an interest-free loan of 568 million Reichsmark (7.1 billion euros or $7.7 billion) that the Nazis forced Greece to make to Germany in 1942.

— Returning the train fares that the Reichsbahn received for transporting Jews to their deaths. Historians disagree on whether the tickets were bought directly by Jews or paid by a special Nazi fund established with money stolen from Jews. They broadly agree that the money came from Holocaust victims.

Previous efforts to bring claims against Germany have ended in legal quagmires.

In 2011 the European Court of Human Rights dismissed a lawsuit brought by four survivors of the Distomo massacre. The judges in Strasbourg, France, concluded that a German court hadn't discriminated against the plaintiffs when it rejected their claim on the basis that states can't be sued by individuals.

Germany insists that the 1942 loan should be considered part of the overall reparations issue. German Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert, says that liability has been "comprehensively and conclusively resolved."

But a confidential legal assessment provided to the German parliament concluded that Berlin's liability wasn't so clear-cut. A Munich historian, Hans Guenter Hockerts, says the Greeks shouldn't be confident of winning any of their claims, but are on firmest ground in demanding repayment of the 1942 loan.

Even the Nazis felt bound by terms of that loan and paid back two installments before their occupation of Greece ended. The unpaid 476 million Reichsmark would be equivalent to at least 6 billion euros ($6.5 billion) today.

That figure dwarfs the war reparations actually paid by Germany since 1945, which include:

— $25 million in goods shortly after the war; Greece says the proper sum should have been nearer $14 billion.

— 115 million Deutschmarks — equivalent to about $330 million today — as part of a 1960 treaty with Greece meant to compensate victims of Nazi atrocities, including Greek Jews.

— 13.5 million euros (about $15 million) paid to former slave laborers from a fund established in 2000 by German companies and the government.

— 1 million euros ($1.1 million) paid annually for a "German-Greek future foundation" meant to fund remembrance and historical research projects.

Gesine Schwan, who twice ran for president as the candidate of Germany's center-left Social Democrats, says the government's stance on new reparations payments is damaging Germany's image in Europe.

"It's embarrassing if rich Germany demands that poor Greece ... pay back debt," Schwan wrote in a newspaper column, "but isn't prepared even to discuss repayment of a forced loan that Nazi Germany took from Greece during the war."
___

Associated Press reporter Costas Kantouris in Thessaloniki, Greece, contributed to this report.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-03-23

[ezzra]

It is unheard of that a country in financial turmoil will go down that path with 70 years old

claims just to have one up on one of the counties they borrowed tens of billions from,

If there are legitimate claims for any compensations, and I believe there are, let be a separate

issues from the problems at hand whereby a country is trying to renege on it's promises

by digging for skeletons in the closet... not the way to go, as this might open the door for

counter claims from and to other countries perhaps going back centuries,

where will it end?

[Dannyboy666]

No Stone unturned , Desperation is Key Here...

[RockyBeerbelly]

Is this a joke or have the Greeks gone completely insane?! If its true, wait till Iraq sends Greece the bill for what Alexander the Great stole from Mesopotamia (including 2500years interest)....

Edited March 23, 2015 by RockyBeerbelly

[Credo]

This could backfire on them massively.

[sirineou]

what is good for the goose is good for the gander

[sirineou]

Is this a joke or have the Greeks gone completely insane?! If its true, wait till Iraq sends Greece the bill for what Alexander the Great stole from Mesopotamia (including 2500years interest)....

what is insane is comparing what happened 2500 years ago when none of the modern states and governing conversions existed to what was committed 72 years ago by one modern state against an other.

Or comparing the actions of Alexander the Great to Hitler's

[Publicus]

In 1945 Germany surrendered to the Allied governments which were the United States, United Kingdom, France, Russia. Those governments signed the surrender documents. Germany did not surrender to Greece....or to Poland, or to Italy etc. The allied governments decided and settled things legally for everyone after the war. Germany has been settling things morally ever since and will continue to do so for quite a while yet.

The allied governments convened a war reparations committee of 19 countries in 1946 which proceeded to ship out to other countries $413 billion of German industry until it was realized it was Groundhog Day of 1919 - 1939 all over again.

So then came the Marshal Plan instead for all of Europe to include Greece which Stalin tried to take control of by insurrection after the war but was stopped by Prez Truman. Maybe the United States should send a bill to Athens for the cost of Greece to it from 1942-1949.

This is an act of shameless desperation in a self-made crisis by a sad and sorry socialist government and society that had long been spending other people's money until there finally was no more of it available. Now it is desperately punching below the belt to try to get some more again. The EU needs to put Greece in its proper place....or properly out of it.

[sirineou]

In 1945 Germany surrendered to the Allied governments which were the United States, United Kingdom, France, Russia. Those governments signed the surrender documents. Germany did not surrender to Greece....or to Poland, or to Italy etc. The allied governments decided and settled things legally for everyone after the war. Germany has been settling things morally ever since and will continue to do so for quite a while yet.

The allied governments convened a war reparations committee of 19 countries in 1946 which proceeded to ship out to other countries $413 billion of German industry until it was realized it was Groundhog Day of 1919 - 1939 all over again.

So then came the Marshal Plan instead for all of Europe to include Greece which Stalin tried to take control of by insurrection after the war but was stopped by Prez Truman. Maybe the United States should send a bill to Athens for the cost of Greece to it from 1942-1949.

This is an act of shameless desperation in a self-made crisis by a sad and sorry socialist government and society that had long been spending other people's money until there finally was no more of it available. Now it is desperately punching below the belt to try to get some more again. The EU needs to put Greece in its proper place....or properly out of it.

"In 1942, the Greek Central Bank was forced by the occupying Nazi regime to loan 476 million Reichmarks at 0% interest to Nazi Germany. In 1960, Greece accepted 115 million Marks as compensation for Nazi crimes. Nevertheless, past Greek governments have insisted that this was only a down-payment, not complete reparations. In 1990, immediately prior to German reunification, West Germany and East Germany signed the Two Plus Four Agreement with the former Allied countries of the United States, Great Britain, France, and Russia. Since that time, Germany has insisted that all matters concerning World War II, including further reparations to Greece, are closed because Germany officially surrendered to the Allies and to no other parties, including Greece. On Sunday, February 8, 2015, the Greek Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras appeared in front of the Greek parliament and officially demanded that Germany pay further reparations to Greece."

Germany paid Israel 3 billion DM reparations did Germany officially surrender to Israel?,

[Credo]

Germany paid Israel 3 billion DM reparations did Germany officially surrender to Israel?,

Israel wasn't a country when Germany surrendered.

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

Greece should also try to change it's own culture and have it's citizens pay their taxes. If they did this then they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. As for trying to recovery this blood money, I say go for it!!!

[godden]

All that lovely blood money

[sirineou]

Germany paid Israel 3 billion DM reparations did Germany officially surrender to Israel?,

Israel wasn't a country when Germany surrendered.

So then I guess formal surrender to a country is not a perquisite to reparation payments

[Publicus]

In 1945 Germany surrendered to the Allied governments which were the United States, United Kingdom, France, Russia. Those governments signed the surrender documents. Germany did not surrender to Greece....or to Poland, or to Italy etc. The allied governments decided and settled things legally for everyone after the war. Germany has been settling things morally ever since and will continue to do so for quite a while yet.

The allied governments convened a war reparations committee of 19 countries in 1946 which proceeded to ship out to other countries $413 billion of German industry until it was realized it was Groundhog Day of 1919 - 1939 all over again.

So then came the Marshal Plan instead for all of Europe to include Greece which Stalin tried to take control of by insurrection after the war but was stopped by Prez Truman. Maybe the United States should send a bill to Athens for the cost of Greece to it from 1942-1949.

This is an act of shameless desperation in a self-made crisis by a sad and sorry socialist government and society that had long been spending other people's money until there finally was no more of it available. Now it is desperately punching below the belt to try to get some more again. The EU needs to put Greece in its proper place....or properly out of it.

"In 1942, the Greek Central Bank was forced by the occupying Nazi regime to loan 476 million Reichmarks at 0% interest to Nazi Germany. In 1960, Greece accepted 115 million Marks as compensation for Nazi crimes. Nevertheless, past Greek governments have insisted that this was only a down-payment, not complete reparations. In 1990, immediately prior to German reunification, West Germany and East Germany signed the Two Plus Four Agreement with the former Allied countries of the United States, Great Britain, France, and Russia. Since that time, Germany has insisted that all matters concerning World War II, including further reparations to Greece, are closed because Germany officially surrendered to the Allies and to no other parties, including Greece. On Sunday, February 8, 2015, the Greek Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras appeared in front of the Greek parliament and officially demanded that Germany pay further reparations to Greece."

Germany paid Israel 3 billion DM reparations did Germany officially surrender to Israel?,

As had been stated, Germany has been settling things morally ever since.

From 1949 to 1990 West Germany had carried the wartime burden of Germans. The 1990 Final Settlement (aka the 2+4 Agreement) was signed by West Germany, the WW2 Allied Governments, and East Germany, just before unification to, in part, transfer sovereign responsibility of WW2 to the new Federal Republic of Germany.

The Final Settlement, however, which was signed by Greece. is regarded as the formal end of World War II and everything associated with it, hence its name. Greece suddenly disagrees and others will side with Greece, of that there is no doubt.

West Germany much more and the Federal Republic of Germany have paid out a lot of compensation to many countries and groups of people, to include the WW2 Allied Governments.

Check with your lawyer cause the former DDR may owe you or someone you know some rubles or DM or whatever because as far as I can find they paid nothing to anybody for anything.

Some Greek Jews bless 'em recently had their WW2 claims case thrown out by the European Court on Human Rights because individuals cannot sue sovereign governments (doctrine of sovereign immunity). So the Greek government would have to bring an action and everyone will have to wait and see on that.

The OP mentioned the 1942 loan may be the only legal challenge Germany might not be able to legally withstand in all of this.

Actually I'm kicking myself for getting involved in this thread because as a rule I don't go near Europe's 2000 years of horrendously absurd and extremely long list of self-made messes which are of the highest order of idiocy, slaughter, mayhem, carnage, revenge, retribution and so on and so on.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Publicus

[NeverSure]

So. The Greek government fled to Egypt at the first sign of war. Is Greece going to pay Russia some amount plus interest for liberating them?

[sirineou]

In 1945 Germany surrendered to the Allied governments which were the United States, United Kingdom, France, Russia. Those governments signed the surrender documents. Germany did not surrender to Greece....or to Poland, or to Italy etc. The allied governments decided and settled things legally for everyone after the war. Germany has been settling things morally ever since and will continue to do so for quite a while yet.

The allied governments convened a war reparations committee of 19 countries in 1946 which proceeded to ship out to other countries $413 billion of German industry until it was realized it was Groundhog Day of 1919 - 1939 all over again.

So then came the Marshal Plan instead for all of Europe to include Greece which Stalin tried to take control of by insurrection after the war but was stopped by Prez Truman. Maybe the United States should send a bill to Athens for the cost of Greece to it from 1942-1949.

This is an act of shameless desperation in a self-made crisis by a sad and sorry socialist government and society that had long been spending other people's money until there finally was no more of it available. Now it is desperately punching below the belt to try to get some more again. The EU needs to put Greece in its proper place....or properly out of it.

"In 1942, the Greek Central Bank was forced by the occupying Nazi regime to loan 476 million Reichmarks at 0% interest to Nazi Germany. In 1960, Greece accepted 115 million Marks as compensation for Nazi crimes. Nevertheless, past Greek governments have insisted that this was only a down-payment, not complete reparations. In 1990, immediately prior to German reunification, West Germany and East Germany signed the Two Plus Four Agreement with the former Allied countries of the United States, Great Britain, France, and Russia. Since that time, Germany has insisted that all matters concerning World War II, including further reparations to Greece, are closed because Germany officially surrendered to the Allies and to no other parties, including Greece. On Sunday, February 8, 2015, the Greek Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras appeared in front of the Greek parliament and officially demanded that Germany pay further reparations to Greece."

Germany paid Israel 3 billion DM reparations did Germany officially surrender to Israel?,

As had been stated, Germany has been settling things morally ever since.

From 1945 to 1990 West Germany had carried the wartime burden of Germans. The 1990 Final Settlement (aka the 2+4 Agreement) was signed by West Germany and East Germany just before unification to, in part, transfer sovereign responsibility of WW2 to the new Federal Republic of Germany.

The Final Settlement, which was signed by Greece. is regarded as the formal end of World War II and everything associated with it, hence its name. Greece suddenly disagrees and others will side with Greece, of that there is no doubt.

West Germany and the Federal Republic of Germany have paid out a lot of compensation to many countries and groups of people, to include the WW2 Allied Governments, West Germany in particular.

Check with your lawyer cause the former DDR may owe you or someone you know some rubles or DM or whatever because they paid nothing to anybody for anything.

Some Greek Jews bless 'em recently had their WW2 claims case thrown out by the European Court on Human Rights because individuals cannot sue sovereign governments (doctrine of sovereign immunity). So the Greek government would have to bring an action and everyone will have to wait and see on that.

The OP mentioned the 1942 loan may be the only legal challenge Germany might not be able to legally withstand in all of this.

Actually I'm kicking myself for getting involved in this thread because as a rule I don't go near Europe's 2000 years of horrendous absurd and extremely long list of self-made messes which are of the highest order of idiocy, slaughter, mayhem.

From the OP

"Even the Nazis felt bound by terms of that loan and paid back two installments before their occupation of Greece ended. The unpaid 476 million Reichsmark would be equivalent to at least 6 billion euros ($6.5 billion) today."

So when should Greece be expecting payment?

or is Greece the only country in this equation required to pay it's debt

Edited March 23, 2015 by sirineou

[sirineou]

So. The Greek government fled to Egypt at the first sign of war. Is Greece going to pay Russia some amount plus interest for liberating them?

Russia liberated Greece?

[deecee10]

It's all Greek to me.

[monkeycountry]

In 1945 Germany surrendered to the Allied governments which were the United States, United Kingdom, France, Russia. Those governments signed the surrender documents. Germany did not surrender to Greece....or to Poland, or to Italy etc. The allied governments decided and settled things legally for everyone after the war. Germany has been settling things morally ever since and will continue to do so for quite a while yet.

The allied governments convened a war reparations committee of 19 countries in 1946 which proceeded to ship out to other countries $413 billion of German industry until it was realized it was Groundhog Day of 1919 - 1939 all over again.

So then came the Marshal Plan instead for all of Europe to include Greece which Stalin tried to take control of by insurrection after the war but was stopped by Prez Truman. Maybe the United States should send a bill to Athens for the cost of Greece to it from 1942-1949.

This is an act of shameless desperation in a self-made crisis by a sad and sorry socialist government and society that had long been spending other people's money until there finally was no more of it available. Now it is desperately punching below the belt to try to get some more again. The EU needs to put Greece in its proper place....or properly out of it.

"In 1942, the Greek Central Bank was forced by the occupying Nazi regime to loan 476 million Reichmarks at 0% interest to Nazi Germany. In 1960, Greece accepted 115 million Marks as compensation for Nazi crimes. Nevertheless, past Greek governments have insisted that this was only a down-payment, not complete reparations. In 1990, immediately prior to German reunification, West Germany and East Germany signed the Two Plus Four Agreement with the former Allied countries of the United States, Great Britain, France, and Russia. Since that time, Germany has insisted that all matters concerning World War II, including further reparations to Greece, are closed because Germany officially surrendered to the Allies and to no other parties, including Greece. On Sunday, February 8, 2015, the Greek Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras appeared in front of the Greek parliament and officially demanded that Germany pay further reparations to Greece."

Germany paid Israel 3 billion DM reparations did Germany officially surrender to Israel?,

As had been stated, Germany has been settling things morally ever since.

From 1945 to 1990 West Germany had carried the wartime burden of Germans. The 1990 Final Settlement (aka the 2+4 Agreement) was signed by West Germany and East Germany just before unification to, in part, transfer sovereign responsibility of WW2 to the new Federal Republic of Germany.

The Final Settlement, which was signed by Greece. is regarded as the formal end of World War II and everything associated with it, hence its name. Greece suddenly disagrees and others will side with Greece, of that there is no doubt.

West Germany and the Federal Republic of Germany have paid out a lot of compensation to many countries and groups of people, to include the WW2 Allied Governments, West Germany in particular.

Check with your lawyer cause the former DDR may owe you or someone you know some rubles or DM or whatever because they paid nothing to anybody for anything.

Some Greek Jews bless 'em recently had their WW2 claims case thrown out by the European Court on Human Rights because individuals cannot sue sovereign governments (doctrine of sovereign immunity). So the Greek government would have to bring an action and everyone will have to wait and see on that.

The OP mentioned the 1942 loan may be the only legal challenge Germany might not be able to legally withstand in all of this.

Actually I'm kicking myself for getting involved in this thread because as a rule I don't go near Europe's 2000 years of horrendous absurd and extremely long list of self-made messes which are of the highest order of idiocy, slaughter, mayhem.

From the OP

"Even the Nazis felt bound by terms of that loan and paid back two installments before their occupation of Greece ended. The unpaid 476 million Reichsmark would be equivalent to at least 6 billion euros ($6.5 billion) today."

So when should Greece be expecting payment?

or is Greece the only country in this equation required to pay it's debt

Perhaps everyone should stop paying anyone anything until these matters are settled properly (which will take years). This also means no more loans for greece until then. It makes no sense continuing lending money to eachother if you are not even clear on the terms and on who owes what to whom.

I wonder why Greece waited 70 years with these claims? Or have they been officially claiming this money all this time? I also wonder if there is a statute of limitations on debt claims between countries, such as there usually is between individuals and companies?

Edited March 23, 2015 by monkeycountry

[klauskunkel]

In related news:

The Turkish government is demanding war reparations from Greece to the tune of 100 Trillion Euros. It's about compensation with interest for the Trojan War some 2,500 years ago. If memory serves, Troy a major city in today's Turkey was laid to waste by an armada of Greek war vessels and a wooden horse (by many considered the first Weapon of Mass Destruction in history) and Brad Pitt. The Turkish Prime Minister is quoted as saying: "The Greeks never apologized in all these millennia for the atrocities they inflicted on our peaceful citizens. They acted like Nazis, and now they must pay!"

[Lupatria]

...don't even think about it Costas

[Publicus]

In 1945 Germany surrendered to the Allied governments which were the United States, United Kingdom, France, Russia. Those governments signed the surrender documents. Germany did not surrender to Greece....or to Poland, or to Italy etc. The allied governments decided and settled things legally for everyone after the war. Germany has been settling things morally ever since and will continue to do so for quite a while yet.

The allied governments convened a war reparations committee of 19 countries in 1946 which proceeded to ship out to other countries $413 billion of German industry until it was realized it was Groundhog Day of 1919 - 1939 all over again.

So then came the Marshal Plan instead for all of Europe to include Greece which Stalin tried to take control of by insurrection after the war but was stopped by Prez Truman. Maybe the United States should send a bill to Athens for the cost of Greece to it from 1942-1949.

This is an act of shameless desperation in a self-made crisis by a sad and sorry socialist government and society that had long been spending other people's money until there finally was no more of it available. Now it is desperately punching below the belt to try to get some more again. The EU needs to put Greece in its proper place....or properly out of it.

"In 1942, the Greek Central Bank was forced by the occupying Nazi regime to loan 476 million Reichmarks at 0% interest to Nazi Germany. In 1960, Greece accepted 115 million Marks as compensation for Nazi crimes. Nevertheless, past Greek governments have insisted that this was only a down-payment, not complete reparations. In 1990, immediately prior to German reunification, West Germany and East Germany signed the Two Plus Four Agreement with the former Allied countries of the United States, Great Britain, France, and Russia. Since that time, Germany has insisted that all matters concerning World War II, including further reparations to Greece, are closed because Germany officially surrendered to the Allies and to no other parties, including Greece. On Sunday, February 8, 2015, the Greek Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras appeared in front of the Greek parliament and officially demanded that Germany pay further reparations to Greece."

Germany paid Israel 3 billion DM reparations did Germany officially surrender to Israel?,

As had been stated, Germany has been settling things morally ever since.

From 1945 to 1990 West Germany had carried the wartime burden of Germans. The 1990 Final Settlement (aka the 2+4 Agreement) was signed by West Germany and East Germany just before unification to, in part, transfer sovereign responsibility of WW2 to the new Federal Republic of Germany.

The Final Settlement, which was signed by Greece. is regarded as the formal end of World War II and everything associated with it, hence its name. Greece suddenly disagrees and others will side with Greece, of that there is no doubt.

West Germany and the Federal Republic of Germany have paid out a lot of compensation to many countries and groups of people, to include the WW2 Allied Governments, West Germany in particular.

Check with your lawyer cause the former DDR may owe you or someone you know some rubles or DM or whatever because they paid nothing to anybody for anything.

Some Greek Jews bless 'em recently had their WW2 claims case thrown out by the European Court on Human Rights because individuals cannot sue sovereign governments (doctrine of sovereign immunity). So the Greek government would have to bring an action and everyone will have to wait and see on that.

The OP mentioned the 1942 loan may be the only legal challenge Germany might not be able to legally withstand in all of this.

Actually I'm kicking myself for getting involved in this thread because as a rule I don't go near Europe's 2000 years of horrendous absurd and extremely long list of self-made messes which are of the highest order of idiocy, slaughter, mayhem.

From the OP

"Even the Nazis felt bound by terms of that loan and paid back two installments before their occupation of Greece ended. The unpaid 476 million Reichsmark would be equivalent to at least 6 billion euros ($6.5 billion) today."

So when should Greece be expecting payment?

or is Greece the only country in this equation required to pay it's debt

So when should Greece be expecting payment?

You're barking up the wrong tree....and not even in the right forest.

Anyway, Greek bonds are paying handsomely these daze so you might check instead with your broker for that kind of info...or better yet find a new and competent broker, which shouldn't be too tuff for you to do.

Other Med EU countries are having their problems too so what happens in this Greek shitstorm of their determination to live off the hog and the fat of the land will impact the euro and the future of economic growth and prosperity of the EU as a whole.....and beyond.

[monkeycountry]

Is this a joke or have the Greeks gone completely insane?! If its true, wait till Iraq sends Greece the bill for what Alexander the Great stole from Mesopotamia (including 2500years interest)....

what is insane is comparing what happened 2500 years ago when none of the modern states and governing conversions existed to what was committed 72 years ago by one modern state against an other.

Or comparing the actions of Alexander the Great to Hitler's

Greece is a state yes, but modern? Sounds to me like it has more in common with Thailand than with Germany, not least when it comes to taxes and politics

Edited March 23, 2015 by monkeycountry

[sirineou]

But the Greeks point out that, following its wartime defeat, Germany received one of the biggest bailouts in modern history within a decade of laying waste to much of Europe. Greece was among 22 countries that agreed to halve Germany's foreign debt at a 1953 conference in London.

Has any one bothered to read the OP?

[mikehock]

In 1945 Germany surrendered to the Allied governments which were the United States, United Kingdom, France, Russia. Those governments signed the surrender documents. Germany did not surrender to Greece....or to Poland, or to Italy etc. The allied governments decided and settled things legally for everyone after the war. Germany has been settling things morally ever since and will continue to do so for quite a while yet.

The allied governments convened a war reparations committee of 19 countries in 1946 which proceeded to ship out to other countries $413 billion of German industry until it was realized it was Groundhog Day of 1919 - 1939 all over again.

So then came the Marshal Plan instead for all of Europe to include Greece which Stalin tried to take control of by insurrection after the war but was stopped by Prez Truman. Maybe the United States should send a bill to Athens for the cost of Greece to it from 1942-1949.

This is an act of shameless desperation in a self-made crisis by a sad and sorry socialist government and society that had long been spending other people's money until there finally was no more of it available. Now it is desperately punching below the belt to try to get some more again. The EU needs to put Greece in its proper place....or properly out of it.

"In 1942, the Greek Central Bank was forced by the occupying Nazi regime to loan 476 million Reichmarks at 0% interest to Nazi Germany. In 1960, Greece accepted 115 million Marks as compensation for Nazi crimes. Nevertheless, past Greek governments have insisted that this was only a down-payment, not complete reparations. In 1990, immediately prior to German reunification, West Germany and East Germany signed the Two Plus Four Agreement with the former Allied countries of the United States, Great Britain, France, and Russia. Since that time, Germany has insisted that all matters concerning World War II, including further reparations to Greece, are closed because Germany officially surrendered to the Allies and to no other parties, including Greece. On Sunday, February 8, 2015, the Greek Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras appeared in front of the Greek parliament and officially demanded that Germany pay further reparations to Greece."

Germany paid Israel 3 billion DM reparations did Germany officially surrender to Israel?,

As had been stated, Germany has been settling things morally ever since.

From 1945 to 1990 West Germany had carried the wartime burden of Germans. The 1990 Final Settlement (aka the 2+4 Agreement) was signed by West Germany and East Germany just before unification to, in part, transfer sovereign responsibility of WW2 to the new Federal Republic of Germany.

The Final Settlement, which was signed by Greece. is regarded as the formal end of World War II and everything associated with it, hence its name. Greece suddenly disagrees and others will side with Greece, of that there is no doubt.

West Germany and the Federal Republic of Germany have paid out a lot of compensation to many countries and groups of people, to include the WW2 Allied Governments, West Germany in particular.

Check with your lawyer cause the former DDR may owe you or someone you know some rubles or DM or whatever because they paid nothing to anybody for anything.

Some Greek Jews bless 'em recently had their WW2 claims case thrown out by the European Court on Human Rights because individuals cannot sue sovereign governments (doctrine of sovereign immunity). So the Greek government would have to bring an action and everyone will have to wait and see on that.

The OP mentioned the 1942 loan may be the only legal challenge Germany might not be able to legally withstand in all of this.

Actually I'm kicking myself for getting involved in this thread because as a rule I don't go near Europe's 2000 years of horrendous absurd and extremely long list of self-made messes which are of the highest order of idiocy, slaughter, mayhem.

From the OP
"Even the Nazis felt bound by terms of that loan and paid back two installments before their occupation of Greece ended. The unpaid 476 million Reichsmark would be equivalent to at least 6 billion euros ($6.5 billion) today."

So when should Greece be expecting payment?
or is Greece the only country in this equation required to pay it's debt

Perhaps everyone should stop paying anyone anything until these matters are settled properly (which will take years). This also means no more loans for greece until then. It makes no sense continuing lending money to eachother if you are not even clear on the terms and on who owes what to whom.

I wonder why Greece waited 70 years with these claims? Or have they been officially claiming this money all this time? I also wonder if there is a statute of limitations on debt claims between countries, such as there usually is between individuals and companies?

Even if the German government decided to pay the $6billion , thissis only a fraction of what Greece owes and wouldn't ultimately help their cause.Claims of other reparations would only make the German s more determined not to lend any further funds, thus speeding up Greece's exit ftom the Euro. ...an inevitable outcome imho Edited March 23, 2015 by Scott

[Publicus]

Is this a joke or have the Greeks gone completely insane?! If its true, wait till Iraq sends Greece the bill for what Alexander the Great stole from Mesopotamia (including 2500years interest)....

what is insane is comparing what happened 2500 years ago when none of the modern states and governing conversions existed to what was committed 72 years ago by one modern state against an other.

Or comparing the actions of Alexander the Great to Hitler's

Greece is a state yes, but modern? Sounds to me like it has more in common with Thailand than with Germany, not least when it comes to taxes and politics

The point is well taken.....

Indeed, Greece may be the most modern state of 'em all because it's changed the definition of socialism to exclude any mention of production.

Even the definition of communism still includes mention of a means of production.

For some time now any mention of production in Greece has only been in relation to the demand to others to produce the loan, the check, the bucks.

[NeverSure]

The point is well taken.....

Indeed, Greece may be the most modern state of 'em all because it's changed the definition of socialism to exclude any mention of production.

Even the definition of communism still includes mention of a means of production.

For some time now any mention of production in Greece has only been in relation to the demand to others to produce the loan, the check, the bucks.

Made laugh out loud.

[Publicus]

But the Greeks point out that, following its wartime defeat, Germany received one of the biggest bailouts in modern history within a decade of laying waste to much of Europe. Greece was among 22 countries that agreed to halve Germany's foreign debt at a 1953 conference in London.

Has any one bothered to read the OP?

The OP omits mention of the Treaty of Versailles, aka the document that burned a continent to the ground and that wiped out a couple of more generations.

Lunatics over there, they are.

2,500 years of it.

One shutters to think of a failed EU.

[soumanioco]

The law of peace might not rest firmly on its feet, humiliated by cold micro-wars and invasions baptized as humanitarian interventions, the law of war, however, has been steadfast rules.

One of them, of sadistic specifications, provides that every occupied country ought to support/preserve their conquers at their own expense.

I invade your house with my macho attitude, imprison your two children, execute another two, rape your wife, grab what you have in cash and jewelry, and on top of that, I demand you cut your throat and feed me. (Of course, with all the mercies of the God which we incidentally both worship.)

If you do not succeed, I execute you and invade your neighbor’s home.

Based on the law of war, in its brutal version, the Germans in March 1942, embezzled from Greece 45 million gold coins in the form of forced loan. They used it to maintain their armies, both Italian and Bulgarian, based on Greece and North Africa.

Based on the law of peace, written and unwritten, Greece has repeatedly claimed, if not war reparations, at least the occupation loan, which Nazi Germany itself had already begun to repay. Even though the tone was much lower than required, due to political transactions and intra-European dependencies, Greece never accepted any statute of limitations.

The occupation loan has nothing to do with current understandings and memorandums imposed by the Germans. It has everything to do with, whether or not, the German side, proponent of the “continuity of the state”, finally comes to terms with it and takes full responsibility.

Edited March 23, 2015 by soumanioco

[nahkit]

Germany paid Israel 3 billion DM reparations did Germany officially surrender to Israel?,

Israel wasn't a country when Germany surrendered.

So then I guess formal surrender to a country is not a perquisite to reparation payments

I don't think there are any pre-requisites for reparation payments that are made voluntarily following discussions between the two countries involved.