Citizenship for daughter born in Australia

[paz]

For the Thai Citizenship Law, the latest revision one is on 2008 (2551) and it is only in Thai which you can find in the several government websites such as: http://www.thaigeneralkonsulat.de/th/consular/nationality4.pdf

Not only in Thai. English translation:

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0367.pdf

And the very important thing and related to this topic is that if one who has Thai Citizenship but his/her father/mother is a foreign. Then his/her thai citizenship may be revoked if:

1. He/She live in for 5 years in the country of his/her father/mother after 20th year old.

2. He/She intents to be in the other Citizenship and the official has proof. <-- If you use foreign passport, they can make use of this case.

3. Security treat act.

4. Criminal act.

(1) and (2) can be revoked by the Minister

(3) and (4) can be revoked by Court Order

You are referring to section 15 of the act, but are understanding it incorrectly.

Section 15

Section 17 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 shall be repealed and replaced by the following:

Section 17

With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of the person having been born within the Kingdom of Thailand to an alien father or mother, the person’s Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) The person has resided in a foreign country, of which the father or mother

has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five

years from the day of the person became sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that the person makes use of the nationality of

the father, mother, or of a foreign nationality, or that the person has an

active interest in the nationality of the father, mother, or in a foreign

nationality;

(3) The person commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with

the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) The person commits any act contrary to public order or good morals.

The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor shall order the revocation of Thai nationality.

Now, this only applies to those

who has Thai nationality, by reason of the person having been born within the Kingdom of Thailand to an alien father or mother

That is, people without any Thai parent, that have acquired Thai citizenship "ius soli", for example between 1972 and 1992, as mentioned in post #26 above. Here a link to better understand "ius soli"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

Once again, you, the OP daughters and any "luk khreung" have full Thai citizenship "ius sanguinis":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis

In this case Thai citizenship cannot be revoked.

[samran]

As I said in the practical one there will not be any problem unless if you make yourself to be a problem with the immigration.

For the Thai Citizenship Law, the latest revision one is on 2008 (2551) and it is only in Thai which you can find in the several government websites such as: http://www.thaigeneralkonsulat.de/th/consular/nationality4.pdf

This new revision is for the good of those who[Thai Citizen who has Thai Parents] have foreign husband/wife which they can still hold Thai Citizenship and they do not need to revoke their thai citizenship.

And the very important thing and related to this topic is that if one who has Thai Citizenship but his/her father/mother is a foreign. Then his/her thai citizenship may be revoked if:

1. He/She live in for 5 years in the country of his/her father/mother after 20th year old.

2. He/She intents to be in the other Citizenship and the official has proof. <-- If you use foreign passport, they can make use of this case.

3. Security treat act.

4. Criminal act.

(1) and (2) can be revoked by the Minister

(3) and (4) can be revoked by Court Order

One sample case http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/2551/D/091/30.PDF and you can find some more case in this site http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/

By the way, it is the law but there is no punishment either. So many immigration officers they keep their eyes blind and will do nothing about it which they will not get punishment for this anyway.

The best simple way to protect yourself is to use Thai Passport when enter to Thailand.

You are talking about people who have Thai nationality 'by reason' of having a foreign parent. The only way this happens is if both parents are permanent residents of Thailand and the child then is eligible to aquire Thai nationality at birth. The law you quote only applies to this people.

Most people, such as myself, gained Thai citizenship 'by reason' of having a Thai parent. Our foreign parent has no power to pass on Thai citizenship to us. As such, section 13 applies where we can make a choice if we want one year after our 20th birthday but there is no penalty if we don't.

The last time dual citizenship was banned for people like me was in the second version of the Thai nationality act in February 1992. That piece of legislation lasted for approximately 3 weeks when version three was passed, allowing it under the circumstances I outlined above.

I suggest you examine these articles to complete your research more fully, krup.

[Ohng]

Thank you very much Khun paz and Khun samran.

Now, I understand very clear about the law after I read this topic. https://www.facebook.com/notes/10152217047198834/

It's help me to better understand the law, especially it will also affect me.

I did refer to the wrong section which I understood it wrong.

But the Section 22 which apply to all Thai citizens still be there and the government can enforce it as well.

Anyway, I am not talking about the practical one because most of them will not have any problem.

I am looking on it and sorry for the misunderstanding.

[paz]

But the Section 22 which apply to all Thai citizens still be there and the government can enforce it as well.

Thank you for continuing the discussion.

Both Section 21 and 22 (that I've read today for the first time, so I confess my ignorance) are interesting. They say:

Section 21

A person of Thai nationality who was born to an alien father or mother and may acquire the nationality of his father or mother according to the law on nationality of the father or mother shall lose Thai nationality if the person obtains an alien identification card according to the law on registration of aliens.

Section 22

A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

For sure authoritative clarification exists, the following is my understanding only.

Section 21 (unlike Section 17) does not specify that the person had obtained nationality "ius solis", rather refers to people that have Thai and a foreign nationality from each respective parent. If they "pretend to be foreigners" while in Thailand, (possibly to avoid conscription), to the point of obtaining an alien ID card, the punishment is loss of Thai nationality. As we know, so far it was quite common for people from bordering countries to be issued Thai alien ID card, but recently even other nationalities that have Permanent Residency are being issued ID cards, so the case is not completely unrealistic.

Section 22 is possibly the most limiting of the entire Act where, in the first case, refers to Thai nationals that have got another nationality by true naturalization, excluding e.g. acquisition by marriage, covered in Section 13, or by birth (OP's daughters case). It is almost reciprocal to imposing to foreigners naturalized Thai to declare the intent to renounce their native nationality. That suggest the concept that in summary, Thailand does not allow dual nationality when either one is obtained by naturalization. That has significant implications. Fortunately, as mentioned, both restrictions are not enforced.

Edited March 26, 2015 by paz

[Surin13]

But the Section 22 which apply to all Thai citizens still be there and the government can enforce it as well.

The issue with section 22 and a lot about what has been said is the misunderstanding of the term naturalisation.

Naturalisation is the gaining of citizenship by a non-citizen, its not the same thing as gaining citizenship by descent.

In Australia and Thailand a child born to either a Thai or Australian citizen becomes a citizen by "descent" in both country not by naturalisation.

To get a Thai birth certificate for a child born to a Thai national in Australia, you must present an Australia birth certificate showing one of the parents is a Thai National. So the Thai Government is very much aware the child will be a dual citizen.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Surin13

[rocketmankabin1]

I failed to mention earlier that my eldest son who is now a teenager was born in America. Since I have dual citizenship, as the Thai father, I registered his birth at the Thai embassy in Wash. DC. Came back to Thailand and was able to put him under my house registration so he rates a Thai ID card. He does not speak Thai, does not read Thai. Does not attend Thai school system. What will happen to him come time to pick a card for military service since he can't speak. Anyone else have experience with this?

[Issangeorge]

If he is interested in learning to speak Thai, would think been thrown in with a bunch of Thais that spoke no English at all would be a very good way.

[Surin13]

I failed to mention earlier that my eldest son who is now a teenager was born in America. Since I have dual citizenship, as the Thai father, I registered his birth at the Thai embassy in Wash. DC. Came back to Thailand and was able to put him under my house registration so he rates a Thai ID card. He does not speak Thai, does not read Thai. Does not attend Thai school system. What will happen to him come time to pick a card for military service since he can't speak. Anyone else have experience with this?

The official line is any Thai males between 21 - 30 can be called upon to do military service, to be part of the lottery system it seems to be based on Tabien Baan registration (from anecdotal evidence), so seeing he is in your book he will most likely be called upon to do the lottery when he is 20 (if in Thailand).

If he is selected during the lottery process he may still be rejected later on due to his lack of Thai language ability (amongst other things) but its not guaranteed.

There are a number of ways to also lessen the time to be served (legally) and to even avoid it, which you will find with a little research.

As you said earlier "Not everything is black and white here which can be good and bad" so its hard to give anymore information to your question than that.

No personal experience with it, but I have researched it in depth and the Thai government for obvious reasons doesn't give a lot of information beside the official line.

[samran]

I failed to mention earlier that my eldest son who is now a teenager was born in America. Since I have dual citizenship, as the Thai father, I registered his birth at the Thai embassy in Wash. DC. Came back to Thailand and was able to put him under my house registration so he rates a Thai ID card. He does not speak Thai, does not read Thai. Does not attend Thai school system. What will happen to him come time to pick a card for military service since he can't speak. Anyone else have experience with this?

military.pdf

[ellathai]

Thanks all for your input.

With the info l have picked up this is how l see it.

1, Submit Birth Certs and Marrige Cert plus house book and a few other things to Thai embassy in Canberra.

2.Recieve Thai Birth Certs

3. Next time in Thailand ( November) Takes daughters and paperwork to relevant Govt Office

4. One of 3 things will happen from there

a. All gets done with no fuss

b. Refused to do because can't speak Thai, so pull out wallet then it gets done

c. Officer refuses everything so go to another office and repeat a or b

Sounds like a plan

Thanks Again

Bruce

[Mario2008]

You reciev only 1 Thai brith certificate, the oldest already has a Thai birth certificate.

At the same time you can apply for a passport for the child.

It might even be possible to get a Thai ID-card, but not sure.

In Thailand you can put the children on a house hold registration book, if they want to live in Thailand. That might require a family meber to vouch for them that they are who they claim to be.

[ellathai]

l have lost her thai birth cert, it was all so long ago, hoping the embassy will give me another. This whole idea is so we can get the id cards so they can take our assets when we die.

Cheers

Bruce

[Mario2008]

l have lost her thai birth cert, it was all so long ago, hoping the embassy will give me another. This whole idea is so we can get the id cards so they can take our assets when we die.

Cheers

Bruce

A new birth certificate is not issued, but you cna get a copy or such.

Strictly speaking the passports are enough, as that already proofs they are Thai nationals (and it also has their Thai ID-number in it). The Thai ID-card makes it more easy for them, but is not needed to inherit land in Thailand.

But since a while some Thai embassies can issue a Thai ID-card, but not sure if they can only renew those. Check with the embassy. The goal is that all Thai embassies will be eable to issue them.

[Surin13]

Thanks all for your input.

With the info l have picked up this is how l see it.

1, Submit Birth Certs and Marrige Cert plus house book and a few other things to Thai embassy in Canberra.

2.Recieve Thai Birth Certs

3. Next time in Thailand ( November) Takes daughters and paperwork to relevant Govt Office

Before submitting your daughters Australian birth certificate it must be authenticated by the DFAT, which means you need to take it to DFAT pay them around $20AUD for them to say its a real birth certificate and authenticate it.

Same for your wedding certificate if not a Thai one.

If they have issued a Thai Birth Certificate before they can issue a copy of it.

The Canberra embassy can also issue ID cards, but not sure if they can issue new ones or only replacements for ones already in the system eg. expired or lost etc best give them a call, they are very helpful.

[ellathai]

Surin13 and mario2008

Thanks for the invaluble advice, l will ring them Monday and see what they have to say.

l did know about dfat just forgot to write it down.

Cheers

Bruce

Edited March 27, 2015 by ellathai

[rocketmankabin1]

I concur with Mario2008. I never had an original birth certificate. Only a copy of one issued 48 years ago and mostly hand written...very unofficial looking. But since I had a passport and house registration I had no problem getting the ID card. Good luck.

[asiaexpat]

I have four children and a wife that hold dual citizenship. Usa-Thai. No problem and very legal. Just be sure your daughter is placed in a current Tabien Bahn ( house registration book.) Thai passport can be obtained using old passport at most Thai embassies.