Thailand, Morality, ethics and me

[Daniel Ingalls]

The biggest problem in this Thai Society is, improper check and balances. When money is being collected at any facility, receipts are given for cash received. A register records the transaction. one clerk records the receipt in a book. the other receipt goes to the controller at a different office. at the end of the week a tabulation of all receipts is matched with the register tape. There should be a balance sheet showing the same end of the week receipts. This looks good for a paper trail. But the flaw is the receipt book. To scam, a second receipt book is used and the copy of the transaction is never sent to the register or controller. ........money never reported. nothing is missed.

Thais working around money never question the authority of those above them. Job security is a higher priority.

Lets face reality, anyone over 35, male or female that looses an office job will never get another job. They are considered, "over the hill" and a new replacement fresh out of college will be hired. Have you ever watched how your Passport and 1900 baht is moved from one desk to the next?....There maybe five people keeping tabs on the money, and the stamp bought, before you receive your Passport. That is whats taking so long after you turned in the paperwork with the money. Pass through to many check points for accuracy as well as control of funds.

[Berkshire]

How many people on this forum can say they are truly not corrupt?

Who on here has not lied or been economic with the truth for whatever reason?

I can honestly state I have never considered selling one of my family members for sex, either in marriage or to a brothel.

I wonder how many Thais can make that same claim.

I expect most posters on this forum can make that same claim.

Let's face it a bit of cheating in business is trivial compared to the national Thai prostitution game.

Are you saying you personally know Thai parents who have sold their children into prostitution? I don't know one. Who the heck are you hanging out with you sicko?

Do you view sinsot as not selling your children?

(My current wife was sold to a man for marriage at age 18 against her will, it's fairly common)

No I do not. If that's what you're referring to, it's rather misleading to suggest that Sin Sod equates to "selling your children." If that's the case, then a whole lot of farangs (and Thais) have been buying their wives.

As for forcing children to marry someone against their will, well of course I'm opposed to that. I honestly don't see much of that going on in Thailand.

[elviajero]

“am at a loss that they accept without any complaint the outrageous corruption endemic in Thai society.”

They don’t complain because they don’t have anything to complain about. Thai society is hierarchical and organized around age, sex, job, wealth, power, education, family name, connections, patronage and reciprocity. Often what is considered corruption by Farang’s simply doesn’t translate.

Thais are no different to others around the world in that they are trying to get through life as best they can, and will utilize the cultural system they live in.

None of us can ever truly stop comparing everything Thai to our home countries, but if you have a “genuine desire to understand” you need to accept that it’s a different culture with different ethics, and that just because they do things differently doesn’t make them morally inferior.

I’m not condoning corruption. It undoubtedly exists, and can be harmful or criminal, but it needs to be viewed in context, especially when talking about those at the ”bottom”.

You may consider “Thailand is morally and ethically bankrupt” not to be Thai bashing, but it is undeserved condemnation especially without giving an example.

[micmichd]

For many women, sin sot is the end of a bar girl or prostitute career, and a chance to avoid further prostitution in the next generation (ie their children)

Imho, sin sot is family welfare.

And of course, financed by those who have the money (eg expats)

Consequently, sin sod should result in a coming shortage of prostitutes. Hopefully farangs and butterflies can face this.

[GOLDBUGGY]

It is not that Thai's are a passive bunch. If the Government doubled the price of LPG Fuel or cut the Rice Price in half, you would see truck load after truck load of people headed to Bangkok to protest. Thai's have proven this in the past several times.

You make reference to corruption at the highest government levels. To the average Thai they probably don't see this as effecting them too much. Almost some acceptance that if you are an Elected Official you are going to steal some money from the coffers. As corrupt as it may be at times it is a system that works here, and as such is accepted to a point.

I will now direct your attention to Libya and when Gaddafi was in power. I was there then and can speak from experience. I think we all can agree that the Libya Government was very corrupt then. But yet most Libyians lived comfortable lives. They had enough food to eat, had a roof over there heads, and most that I knew all had cars.

But today they live in a Civil War that has lasted for years and has torn their country in two. With Blood Shed everywhere and Terrorists attacking both sides. So now that they got rid of a system that was working, but corrupt, by getting rid of Gaddafi, you have to ask yourself if the average Libyian is any better off today then he was years ago.

So I question that by sliding a few baht under the table to get what I want with no fuss or bother is such a bad thing? Or is lining up in a Que for hours or days to get the same thing better, as it is a fare way? I look at my government, where I am sure some corruption is present, but they do tend to hide this better than most other people. To renew my Passport will cost me $260. That isn't corruption! That is just plain Highway Robbery!

[CharlieH]

Off topic and mixed quote replies removed.

[darkian]

I think the problem that 99% of the farang posters on here seem to have is that they continuously compare Thailand and its morals and ethics to those of their home countries. You have to prepare yourself for the realisation that perhaps Thailand doesn't want to be like Germany or the UK or the US. And let's face it, who'd blame them. And as for corruption, haha, like the west isn't corrupt to the core, they just hide it from everyone with great success.

[nidieunimaitre]

Thailand runs on fear, disagree end up with problem sometimes dead.

Don`t forget greed.

Doesn't the UK run on greed, according to what I think is a very true post from a poster, America also runs on greed.

Greed and Capitalism is rife everywhere, you would be hard pushed to find anywhere it isn't.

Exactly. Greed is almost a requirement of capitalism. Or do these guys not even understand the country from which they come from?

Berkshire a commie? Not possible!

[nontabury]

Thailand runs on fear, disagree end up with problem sometimes dead.

Don`t forget greed.

Doesn't the UK run on greed, according to what I think is a very true post from a poster, America also runs on greed.

Greed and Capitalism is rife everywhere, you would be hard pushed to find anywhere it isn't.

Exactly. Greed is almost a requirement of capitalism. Or do these guys not even understand the country from which they come from?

Berkshire a commie? Not possible!

Sorry! Totally disagree, if Berkshire was a commie he certainly would not apologies for many of the actions of a certain section of the Thai populace.

[surangw]

different culture, viewed from a completely different cultural view point makes it hard to understand, easy to criticize

[phoenixdoglover]

A definition of "morality" might be a start. Here's one:

a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.

So the proper frame for understanding morality in Thailand would be the behavioral norms of Thai society.

Granted, globalization applies a global norm; hence the "Corruption Perceptions Index" and other measures.

But would it be fair to say that the average Thai views a 200 Baht payment of a fine directly to a police officer as a pragmatic and acceptable practice? A friend of my wife got stopped for a traffic infraction, and objected to paying anything on the spot. They took her license and she had to go to the police station the next day to sort it out. My wife, and all the others who debated this after the story unfolded, thought the friend was crazy. They lectured her on her stupidity.

Societal norms for petty corruption...acceptable and reinforced by your friends and neighbors.

On the other hand, corruption of higher officials of different sorts...not so acceptable.

The "bright line" is in a different place.

Edited March 26, 2015 by phoenixdoglover

[northernjohn]

Not sure we're you come from back in my country we have good and bad people and it is the same here good and bad you come to thailand to have fun and not work out how the country is run and if you don't like not saying you , but a lot on this forum TV need to look at there selves and stop thai bashing I am sick of it here on TV you get some real good reading but you get to much thai bashing and it should stop if you don't like it here get out and go back home to your country.

So early in the thread and already a poster who doesn't read the OP thoroughly.

You are so far off the mark in your response that I thought it prudent not to answer but now and again I feel the need to say something to inane comments like yours.

Your inability to read what I writ doesn't surprise me at all but to actually respond in the manner that you did beggars belief.

For Gods sake read the post properly then read it again and then a third time and then define where, in what phrase or paragraph I was Thai bashing.

In the meantime telling someone to bog off back to their own country because you may not agree with their sentiment is like taking your bat and ball home, in other words very childish!

Now please think about what I am saying and if there is even the slightest accuracy in what I have said then and come back with a sensible and interesting reply.

Like for instance you could have made a comment like; the Thai people are so brainwashed that they do not have that sense of "empowerment" that we from the West or those in other SEA have in regard to these matters.

In other words am looking at why and I take the evolutionary process in consideration why after such a long time of "fraternisation" with the West and all of its contribution to Thai society they still havnt evolved like say Singapore , Japan or Korea.

I look forward to your answer to the points that I have raised

You might want to rethink what you are saying.

"Thai people are so brainwashed that they do not have that sense of "empowerment" that we from the West or those in other SEA have in regard to these matters."

There are many countries in SE Asia more corrupt than Thailand. You have been reading to much Thai Visa. They actually have two of the most corrupt in the world with North Korea and Myanmar. If you had thrown in Malaysia with your examples you would have the only countries with less corruption than them. Thailand is in the middle of the pack.

Edit

With all the countries in SE Asia that are worse than Thailand I look at that statement as Thai basing.

Edited March 26, 2015 by northernjohn

[kannot]

Quit generalizing because the corruption isn't endemic...lots of Thai people aren't corrupt and don't condone corruption.

yes but the ones that do condone it control everything , thats the difference

[nidieunimaitre]

Thailand runs on fear, disagree end up with problem sometimes dead.

Don`t forget greed.

Doesn't the UK run on greed, according to what I think is a very true post from a poster, America also runs on greed.

Greed and Capitalism is rife everywhere, you would be hard pushed to find anywhere it isn't.

Exactly. Greed is almost a requirement of capitalism. Or do these guys not even understand the country from which they come from?

Berkshire a commie? Not possible!

Sorry! Totally disagree, if Berkshire was a commie he certainly would not apologies for many of the actions of a certain section of the Thai populace.

You could show a little respect for Berkshire.

Coming out of the closet must have been really difficult for him.

Let's hope he will now not be another "Red under our beds".

Or worse - a "Yellow under our beds".

[impulse]

Showing up in Asia with a pack of Western ethics is like showing up at a rugby match with shoulder pads and a helmet.

The games look the same, and both are great sports. But the rules are different, and trying to judge one game by the other's rules will come to no good...

[thaibeachlovers]

I can honestly state I have never considered selling one of my family members for sex, either in marriage or to a brothel.

I wonder how many Thais can make that same claim.

I expect most posters on this forum can make that same claim.

Let's face it a bit of cheating in business is trivial compared to the national Thai prostitution game.

Are you saying you personally know Thai parents who have sold their children into prostitution? I don't know one. Who the heck are you hanging out with you sicko?

Do you view sinsot as not selling your children?

(My current wife was sold to a man for marriage at age 18 against her will, it's fairly common)

No I do not. If that's what you're referring to, it's rather misleading to suggest that Sin Sod equates to "selling your children." If that's the case, then a whole lot of farangs (and Thais) have been buying their wives.

As for forcing children to marry someone against their will, well of course I'm opposed to that. I honestly don't see much of that going on in Thailand.

I honestly don't see much of that going on in Thailand.

Look harder.

My wife was forced to marry the Thai man that raped her by her father. ( she did eventually divorce him after her father died )

As for sin sod, that's been well and truly been thrashed on the forum, but IMO any farang that pays sin sod without getting it back ( ie just for show ) needs to wake up and smell the con. If they didn't get it back, then yes, they did "buy" her. That's what Sin Sod is.

Quote deleted to allow posting.

Edited March 27, 2015 by thaibeachlovers

[micmichd]

I can honestly state I have never considered selling one of my family members for sex, either in marriage or to a brothel.

I wonder how many Thais can make that same claim.

I expect most posters on this forum can make that same claim.

Let's face it a bit of cheating in business is trivial compared to the national Thai prostitution game.

Are you saying you personally know Thai parents who have sold their children into prostitution? I don't know one. Who the heck are you hanging out with you sicko?

Do you view sinsot as not selling your children?

(My current wife was sold to a man for marriage at age 18 against her will, it's fairly common)

No I do not. If that's what you're referring to, it's rather misleading to suggest that Sin Sod equates to "selling your children." If that's the case, then a whole lot of farangs (and Thais) have been buying their wives.

As for forcing children to marry someone against their will, well of course I'm opposed to that. I honestly don't see much of that going on in Thailand.

I honestly don't see much of that going on in Thailand.

Look harder.

My wife was forced to marry the Thai man that raped her by her father. ( she did eventually divorce him after her father died )

As for sin sod, that's been well and truly been thrashed on the forum, but IMO any farang that pays sin sod without getting it back ( ie just for show ) needs to wake up and smell the con. If they didn't get it back, then yes, they did "buy" her. That's what Sin Sod is.

Quote deleted to allow posting.

[micmichd]

I can honestly state I have never considered selling one of my family members for sex, either in marriage or to a brothel.

I wonder how many Thais can make that same claim.

I expect most posters on this forum can make that same claim.

Let's face it a bit of cheating in business is trivial compared to the national Thai prostitution game.

Are you saying you personally know Thai parents who have sold their children into prostitution? I don't know one. Who the heck are you hanging out with you sicko?

Do you view sinsot as not selling your children?

(My current wife was sold to a man for marriage at age 18 against her will, it's fairly common)

No I do not. If that's what you're referring to, it's rather misleading to suggest that Sin Sod equates to "selling your children." If that's the case, then a whole lot of farangs (and Thais) have been buying their wives.

As for forcing children to marry someone against their will, well of course I'm opposed to that. I honestly don't see much of that going on in Thailand.

I honestly don't see much of that going on in Thailand.

Look harder.

My wife was forced to marry the Thai man that raped her by her father. ( she did eventually divorce him after her father died )

As for sin sod, that's been well and truly been thrashed on the forum, but IMO any farang that pays sin sod without getting it back ( ie just for show ) needs to wake up and smell the con. If they didn't get it back, then yes, they did "buy" her. That's what Sin Sod is.

Quote deleted to allow posting.

[thaibeachlovers]

You don't buy a Thai woman with sin sod, <deleted>

What do you expect to get back? The money AND the woman?

So what do you think sin sod is, exactly? A nice present perhaps?

You only get the money back when it's just for show, as you already have the woman.

[micmichd]

Part of sin sod is for the wedding party, part of it a deposit to make sure you don't run away.

You think you've got the woman for free - without taking care for her (and her kid/s)?

Edited March 27, 2015 by micmichd

[thaibeachlovers]

Part of sin sod is for the wedding party, part of it a deposit to make sure you don't run away.

You think you've got the woman for free - without taking care for her (and her kid/s)?

So how come farangs are expected to pay for the wedding party as well as the sin sod ( I didn't pay for the wedding party )?

part of it a deposit to make sure you don't run away

GOOD GRIEF!!!!!!

If you want to run away, why the *^&^%$ are you marrying her in the first place.

You think you've got the woman for free

I didn't pay for my wife- only for show sin sod, so yes, I got her for "free".

without taking care for her (and her kid/s)?

Assuming you are talking about existing children, why would I take care of another man's offspring?

I married a woman without children and we are not having any.

[n210mp]

Irony

Coincidence

Synergy

It does appear though that there are others concerned with Morality, ethics within Thai society

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/812296-moral-center-to-propose-six-policies-to-pm-to-strengthen-thai-morality/?utm_source=newsletter-20150327-1445&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

Edited March 27, 2015 by CharlieH

[micmichd]

Part of sin sod is for the wedding party, part of it a deposit to make sure you don't run away.

You think you've got the woman for free - without taking care for her (and her kid/s)?

So how come farangs are expected to pay for the wedding party as well as the sin sod ( I didn't pay for the wedding party )?

part of it a deposit to make sure you don't run away

GOOD GRIEF!!!!!!

If you want to run away, why the *^&^%$ are you marrying her in the first place.

You think you've got the woman for free

I didn't pay for my wife- only for show sin sod, so yes, I got her for "free".

without taking care for her (and her kid/s)?

Assuming you are talking about existing children, why would I take care of another man's offspring?

I married a woman without children and we are not having any.

[Bluetongue]

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Issues that make it to the top for tight and uptight societies don't have the same cut through here, more concern is felt for the here and now, next meal or whatever

[micmichd]

Farangs are a strange species.

They usually (still) have more money than many Thais, so they can pay.

They're after Thai womenbecause they don't like Farang women so much.

They get Thai women and complain about being used as ATM.

Maybe you found a way to pay in instalments.

Maybe your wife puts a little money aside in case you get sick.

Maybe your wife is getting older, and she still needs some security while you might be looking after younger women.

Maybe you get older, too, and some day you'll be glad if there's someone from the next generation to take care for you. And maybe then you don't give a f*** if that someone is your own offspring or not.

Alternatively you may want to end up your life in a lonely Farang asylum for the elderly, a place where no one really wants you anymore and everybody only hopes you die pretty soon.

Edited March 27, 2015 by micmichd

[MaeJoMTB]

Farangs are a strange species.

They usually (still) have more money than many Thais, so they can pay.

They're after Thai womenbecause they don't like Farang women so much.

They get Thai women and complain about being used as ATM.

Speak for yourself,

I like young white women just fine (I also like young brown, yellow and black women)

It's just the young white women won't have anything to do with me (can't blame them, as I am 60).

[Baa_Mango]

didn't read the drive - direct reply to the subject header.

i think in the west many people have these invisible walls constructed that protect them from other people - strangers, ie not much smiling at the mall, or manners (cept maybe Canada?) etc etc yet people still have a strong kinda sense of values (real values..) etc..

I noticed many Thais are are super open and happy and (etc.) on the surface but really ethically and morally may be in different categories, **

although by saying this, I find it hard to paint all people with a single brush.. considering the more specific class structure in Thailand, especially when compared with the west - I believe differing sets or morality start to emerge. Many people on generally (a net forum thing maybe? or else where too) seem to point towards theravada buddhism as one of the factors, which seems to explain certain mindsets yet also seems to create a huge clash in certain situations where one would assume the buddhist approach would be .. "morally superior" .. but then again deeper investigation to the buddhists here also can be quite revealing as well.

I think its a top to bottom different approach than what most western people used to.. I use this from a NA point of view then European.The media is different, tradition and respect is different. Societal hierarchy is different and prevalent. Community, class, and family are totally different. Morality, but perhaps more importantly mortality is different as well. Fear of death goes pretty far in the west.

[Baa_Mango]

also another note - please understand just cause you live in hillbilly land or are involved in some scenario (which ever that may be) that doesn't apply to the whole country nor all of its people. Noticed that <deleted> here are in the ol province trap and then are shocked at country bumpkin behavior.. when in Thai reality that doesn't mean much.. cept for you

**post edited to remove profanity.

[MaeJoMTB]

also another note - please understand just cause you live in hillbilly land or are involved in some scenario (which ever that may be) that doesn't apply to the whole country nor all of its people. Noticed that most cun t's here are in the ol province trap and then are shocked at country bumpkin behavior.. when in Thai reality that doesn't mean much.. cept for you

Just to point out most Thais are of the 'country bumpkin' variety (either currently or by descent),

So that is most of Thai reality.

[Baa_Mango]

Nah - Lets just put some percentage on power eh ?

big city in the middle - bkk eh ?

there is a real reason why those farmers are the down trodden eh

Quite funny as when these luddites are throwing out there blank generalizations they forget that a lot of the North and North / East are most comprised of ethnic Laotian and quite often Khmer. Anyways my point is that despite population mass - its not always the best litmus test. Now I do understand that a lot of the degenerate scum riff raff here are shacked up and exploiting these people (or vicE versA?) for what ever, they/we/ thai forum/ should focus on reality of Thailand, which really is the old bkk / กทม kinda thing. its like reading &lt;deleted&gt; who stay at khaosan complaining of expensive taxis or pushy tuk tuks. for this i say: you made your bed, now have a nap