Looking for advice on setting up a home gym

[Justfine]

6 hours ago, tropo said:

If push-ups are poor for your chest, you're doing it wrong. I only feel it in the chest and most definitely not in the arms. Hand and foot position is key. The pump and tension I can attain in the chest from pushups are outstanding and no barbell or DB movement comes close... and that's why I start with push-ups in every chest workout. I should mention that a person's bodyweight could be a factor. On flat push-ups, I'm pushing 70kg at my hands (measured on a digital scale). Pushing up and then lowering slowly down to a full stretch (using rotating push-up handles that allow a greater ROM and more favourable hand positioning) and holding it momentarily at the bottom will work your pectoral muscles like nothing else. If you weigh less and/or are very strong, it could be too light. I place my feet on a bar which I raise and lower to increase and vary the load.

 

I actually do both incline DB and pushups as well as barbell inclines, but if I had to choose one it would be push-ups. There's absolutely no core involvement in DB inclines other than getting them up to your chest, which will likely cause injuries if you're lifting heavy. That's where power hooks come in handy if you're training without a spotter.

 

As for who needs many exercises and who doesn't - that depends on what you're trying to achieve. There is no one program for everyone. If you're interested only in "health and fitness", then one or two movements would be fine. If you're a bodybuilder and want maximum hypertrophy a higher volume is beneficial. If you want to be a powerlifter, then lower volume with heavier weighs works better.

 Incline dumbells work arms, chest and shoulders. Core exercise. Push ups are better with props than on the ground.

 

Not sure why you pretend to be an expert.

 

 

 

[Justfine]

 

Top 4 core weight exercises

 

1. Deadlift
2. Squats
3. Incline Bench Press
4. Bent Over Rows

If you have bad knees or struggle with technique then skip the squats and replace with alternative leg exercise.

 

A core exercise targets multiple muscles at the same time as opposed to isolation.

 

Not to be confused with exercising the core ie crunches, sit ups.

[Justfine]

Are deadlifts the king? I think so. Great exercise.

 

https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/deadlifts-the-king-of-mass-builders.html

[Justfine]

"(using rotating push-up handles that allow a greater ROM and more favourable hand positioning) and holding it momentarily at the bottom will work your pectoral muscles like nothing else"

 

I own a pair. Not a bad exercise but they don't compare with free weights for muscle building. Body builders use heavy weights for growth not push ups.

 

 

[Justfine]

"If you're a bodybuilder and want maximum hypertrophy a higher volume is beneficial"

 

Bodybuilders use heavy weights for growth. Large muscle size only comes with big weights. Higher volume is done near competition for definition and calorie burning.

 

The average person should not be doing heavy weights due to injury risk.

 

8 to 12 reps or 6 to 8 if been training a while and know good technique.

 

 

 

 

[tropo]

8 hours ago, Justfine said:

 Incline dumbells work arms, chest and shoulders. Core exercise. Push ups are better with props than on the ground.

 

Not sure why you pretend to be an expert.

 

2

It sounds like you think you're an expert. You most certainly are not. All you do is whine about how boring everything is. Anyone suggesting that anyone (especially on an expat forum where people tend to be older) should do bent over rows should be banned.  

 

I am an expert. I've been seriously involved with all types of weight training (Olympic lifting, powerlifting and bodybuilding) since 1975 and still experiment and study after over 40 years. Anything to do with weight training has been my passion since I was a teenager.

[tropo]

8 hours ago, Justfine said:

 

Top 4 core weight exercises

 

1. Deadlift
2. Squats
3. Incline Bench Press
4. Bent Over Rows

If you have bad knees or struggle with technique then skip the squats and replace with alternative leg exercise.

 

A core exercise targets multiple muscles at the same time as opposed to isolation.

 

Not to be confused with exercising the core ie crunches, sit ups.

Number 3 is not a core exercise. Number 4 is a waste of time and a very high injury risk. I'm lucky I survived number 4 as I used to bang out reps up to 300 lbs on that one - in perfect form.

[tropo]

8 hours ago, Justfine said:

Are deadlifts the king? I think so. Great exercise.

 

https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/deadlifts-the-king-of-mass-builders.html

LOL> bodybuilding.com. I've read plenty of "deadlifts are the king" threads over the years. Most of the contributors on that forum are teenagers without a clue. Having said that, I deadlift too, but not heavy. I even do RDL's. Threw out bent over rows years ago.

 

Check out what deadlifts did to Ronnie Coleman. He's had about 7 spinal surgeries since he retired. We don't usually hear about the health of ex-bodybuilders, powerlifters or bodybuilders once they retire. Most of the guys who lifted super heavy are a mess. One of the strong champions who did push himself to extremes, Dorian Yates, retired because of injury. He gave up squats early in his career as he realised they were too much of an injury risk for the benefits they provided. Bodybuilders who lift lighter and more sensibly have a much longer career.

 

I suggest you take a break from Bodybuilding.com and try this site:

 

https://www.appliedmetabolics.com/

 

It'll cost you $10 per month, but you'll learn from a very intelligent guy who used to train with Arnold. You'll learn a lot about the actual science behind muscle growth.

Edited February 15, 2018 by tropo

[tropo]

7 hours ago, Justfine said:

"(using rotating push-up handles that allow a greater ROM and more favourable hand positioning) and holding it momentarily at the bottom will work your pectoral muscles like nothing else"

 

I own a pair. Not a bad exercise but they don't compare with free weights for muscle building. Body builders use heavy weights for growth not push ups.

 

 

Owning a pair doesn't mean you know how to use them. Sell them with the rest of the equipment that bores you.

 

To grow muscle you must cause cellular damage. You can do what with light, medium or heavy weights. It's actually harder to reach failure on higher reps as it's more painful. 5 - 10 reps is far easier, but not more effective. The trick is to cause cellular damage in the muscle while keeping the joints and tendons healthy. That's not easy, but a lot easier with lighter weights.

 

I don't know why you think everything has to be done in the same rep range. That's very limited and short-sighted. In one workout I'll do sets of 5 all the way up to 20 and over. It does depend on the exercise. My pushups are done in the 15 - 20 rep range, but with an intensity you've probably never experienced as you're always working in the 5 - 10 rep range. Gaining strength is irrelevant - it's what your muscles are doing that counts, not what's on the bar. Apart from that, at nearly 60 I reached my strength peak years ago. Now I'm trying to give good advice to older trainers who like to keep their joints healthy while maintaining and growing as muscle as possible.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by tropo

[Justfine]

39 minutes ago, tropo said:

Owning a pair doesn't mean you know how to use them. Sell them with the rest of the equipment that bores you.

 

To grow muscle you must cause cellular damage. You can do what with light, medium or heavy weights. It's actually harder to reach failure on higher reps as it's more painful. 5 - 10 reps is far easier, but not more effective. The trick is to cause cellular damage in the muscle while keeping the joints and tendons healthy. That's not easy, but a lot easier with lighter weights.

 

I don't know why you think everything has to be done in the same rep range. That's very limited and short-sighted. In one workout I'll do sets of 5 all the way up to 20 and over. It does depend on the exercise. My pushups are done in the 15 - 20 rep range, but with an intensity you've probably never experienced as you're always working in the 5 - 10 rep range. Gaining strength is irrelevant - it's what your muscles are doing that counts, not what's on the bar. Apart from that, at nearly 60 I reached my strength peak years ago. Now I'm trying to give good advice to older trainers who like to keep their joints healthy while maintaining and growing as muscle as possible.

 

 

70kgs

Brushing teeth

 

I know how to to push ups. Learnt that decades ago.

 

You can please yourself.

[Justfine]

58 minutes ago, tropo said:

LOL> bodybuilding.com. I've read plenty of "deadlifts are the king" threads over the years. Most of the contributors on that forum are teenagers without a clue. Having said that, I deadlift too, but not heavy. I even do RDL's. Threw out bent over rows years ago.

 

Check out what deadlifts did to Ronnie Coleman. He's had about 7 spinal surgeries since he retired. We don't usually hear about the health of ex-bodybuilders, powerlifters or bodybuilders once they retire. Most of the guys who lifted super heavy are a mess. One of the strong champions who did push himself to extremes, Dorian Yates, retired because of injury. He gave up squats early in his career as he realised they were too much of an injury risk for the benefits they provided. Bodybuilders who lift lighter and more sensibly have a much longer career.

 

I suggest you take a break from Bodybuilding.com and try this site:

 

https://www.appliedmetabolics.com/

 

It'll cost you $10 per month, but you'll learn from a very intelligent guy who used to train with Arnold. You'll learn a lot about the actual science behind muscle growth.

You should join. You're a 70kg weak guy.

[Justfine]

"Most of the guys who lifted super heavy are a mess. "

 

I don't go super heavy. Don't need to. Learnt that decades ago too.

[Justfine]

1 hour ago, tropo said:

Number 3 is not a core exercise. Number 4 is a waste of time and a very high injury risk. I'm lucky I survived number 4 as I used to bang out reps up to 300 lbs on that one - in perfect form.

Wrong on both counts. 3 is a core exercise. 4 is low risk with dumbells.

 

For an "expert" you sure don't know much.

 

 

[Justfine]

1 hour ago, tropo said:

It sounds like you think you're an expert. You most certainly are not. All you do is whine about how boring everything is. Anyone suggesting that anyone (especially on an expat forum where people tend to be older) should do bent over rows should be banned.  

 

I am an expert. I've been seriously involved with all types of weight training (Olympic lifting, powerlifting and bodybuilding) since 1975 and still experiment and study after over 40 years. Anything to do with weight training has been my passion since I was a teenager.

No expert here. Just someone with intelligence who has studied different methods and does lots of reading.

 

Working out safe effective movements isn't rocket science.

 

40 years and you haven't worked out the safe way to do rows. Slow learner.

 

 

 

 

[Justfine]

 

 

http://www.jasonstake.com/one-arm-dumbbell-row.html#gs.hwveETE

[tropo]

4 hours ago, Justfine said:

No expert here. Just someone with intelligence who has studied different methods and does lots of reading.

 

Working out safe effective movements isn't rocket science.

 

40 years and you haven't worked out the safe way to do rows. Slow learner.

 

 

Are you talking about rows, or bent over rows? I do a lot of safe rowing movements. There is no safe way to do bent-over with heavy weights and support them statically with your lower back while the force is perpendicular to your vertebrae. It's quite possible that you do pretend bent-over rows in a nearly vertical position as many do, but that's not bent-over rows - but definitely safer. You may even do the Yates-style rows, which also is not bent-over rows.

 

Actually, I was very strong at all bent over rows. It was one of my strongest movements. Even now, after not doing them for a number of years I could probably out row you easily and in strict form.I didn't develop any serious injuries from it, but when you're using heavy weights on such an intrinsically dangerous movement you're courting danger. As far as being a muscle developer, it's virtually useless, especially considering there are so many better, safer movements for core and upper back strength and size. If you're using tiny weights, it's even more useless, but at least you're only wasting your time and not likely to get injured.

Edited February 15, 2018 by tropo

[tropo]

4 hours ago, Justfine said:

Wrong on both counts. 3 is a core exercise. 4 is low risk with dumbells.

 

For an "expert" you sure don't know much.

 

 

You're obviously confusing "compound" with "core". Core strength comes from the mid-section or trunk. You don't get any work in the mid-section when you're lying on a bench doing incline DB's. Don't get me wrong - I've never said that incline DB's are not a good exercise and as I said, I do them. It's one of my favourite chest movements and 2nd in my chest routine. Calling it a core movement is just ignorant. Try standing DB and barbell presses. They work your core.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by tropo

[tropo]

4 hours ago, Justfine said:

You should join. You're a 70kg weak guy.

Join what? Bodybuilding.com? LOL> I've been a member on that forum for nearly 20 years. I gave up posting there a long time ago.

 

Who's a 70kg weak guy? I probably warm up with what you call heavy weights. That's if you ever get motivated enough to train considering your problem with boredom.

[tropo]

4 hours ago, Justfine said:

70kgs

Brushing teeth

 

I know how to to push ups. Learnt that decades ago.

 

You can please yourself.

70kg is the load on my hands when I do pushups horizontally. That's roughly 70% of my bodyweight. Any idiot knows you don't push up your total bodyweight when you do push-ups.

[FracturedRabbit]

Hey Tropo, 
You seem to be very experienced in this area; could you recommend 4-5 starter exercises for an old fart that has acquired some dumbbells and a bench and wants to improve his fitness and strength without risking damage by bad form? Thank!

[tropo]

7 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

Hey Tropo, 
You seem to be very experienced in this area; could you recommend 4-5 starter exercises for an old fart that has acquired some dumbbells and a bench and wants to improve his fitness and strength without risking damage by bad form? Thank!

Sure. Could you give me more details about what you have? Do you have adjustable DB's, and if so, what weight range do you have? Did you buy a barbell? What type of bench do you have?

[speedtripler]

On 15/02/2018 at 8:37 PM, tropo said:

70kg is the load on my hands when I do pushups horizontally. That's roughly 70% of my bodyweight. Any idiot knows you don't push up your total bodyweight when you do push-ups.

Handstand pushups are pretty close.... 

[tropo]

1 hour ago, speedtripler said:

Handstand pushups are pretty close.... 

I just took another measurement today to check. It works out to between 74kg and 76kg at the hands on a flat pushup at my bodyweight. I would never be able to do handstand pushups as I'd be pushing over 100kg, but I suppose a handstand pushup is partial because your heads in the way so it's wouldn't be quite a hard as a full military press from the upper chest. Right now all I can do is 70kg x5 on a military press in decent form. That used to be an easy weight for me.

[FracturedRabbit]

10 hours ago, tropo said:

Sure. Could you give me more details about what you have? Do you have adjustable DB's, and if so, what weight range do you have? Did you buy a barbell? What type of bench do you have?

Adjustable dumbbells from 5 to 52.5 pounds and an incline bench. Thanks. 

[robblok]

My 2 cents on deadlifts, they are one of the best exercises still. You don't have to do them heavy actually doing them too heavy could lead to problems. There was a time i did 5 reps now I prefer 8 or more (lighter weight). But it certainly is one of the better exercises out there. 

 

There are plenty of famous strength coaches who support this exercise not just people posting on bodybuilder forums. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rippetoe 

[tropo]

47 minutes ago, robblok said:

My 2 cents on deadlifts, they are one of the best exercises still. You don't have to do them heavy actually doing them too heavy could lead to problems. There was a time i did 5 reps now I prefer 8 or more (lighter weight). But it certainly is one of the better exercises out there. 

 

There are plenty of famous strength coaches who support this exercise not just people posting on bodybuilder forums. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rippetoe 

When one uses the term "one of the best exercises" one should indicate what exactly they are good for.

 

If you're after a good physique they won't have much impact.

 

If you're after muscular development they won't help much. There are plenty of powerlifters around with good deadlift strength and lousy physiques.

 

If you want to strengthen your back (trunk) then they are useful only if you can nail the form, you have the right structure and you have no pre-existing back problems. The problem is they can mess your back up very quickly and an injury from deadlifts can keep you out of the gym for a long time.

 

I also have deadlifts in my routine, but like you, I keep the weight reasonable. I also do sets of 8 to 10, with the occasion 5 rep set if I'm feeling good, but the last rep must always be comfortable, not a struggle. I prefer lighter weight RDL's to regular deadlifts though but they are also a risky exercise. I never do any of those eye and vein-popping reps where the bar inches up your legs. I'd be afraid to do that. I've had an injury on a heavy deadlift before and it's no fun - a painful electric shock in the lumbar region. 1st and 2nd reps felt great (my goal was 5 reps) - I felt strong and invincible, then on the 3rd rep - pop!!! All I could do was lay on my back and rest and hope the damage was not too severe. I eventually made my way home and popped some NSAIDs and put ice on my back. I was lucky and got back to the gym fairly soon.

 

Now, before you say something like: "Hey, I've never had a back injury before". In my case, I'd done deadlifts between 1975 and 2013 before I got the injury I had described above. My back felt really good before the injury too. These injuries are not always broadcasted beforehand.

 

My conclusion: They most definitely are not the "king of exercises". They are just another exercise that may or may be useful and riskier than most.

 

If you're a strength athlete who does competition Strongman, Powerlifting, Olympic Lifting or you play football or other contact sports, then they are essential. If you're an older expat who hasn't had much experience in the gym and looking to improve your physique or fitness - you're best off avoiding them.

Edited February 18, 2018 by tropo

[robblok]

1 minute ago, tropo said:

When one uses the term "one of the best exercises" one should indicate what exactly they are good for.

 

If you're after a good physique they won't have much impact.

 

If you're after muscular development they won't help much. There are plenty of powerlifters around with good deadlift strength and lousy physiques.

 

If you want to strengthen your back (trunk) then they are useful only if you can nail the form, you have the right structure and you have no pre-existing back problems. The problem is they can mess your back up very quickly and an injury from deadlifts can keep you out of the gym for a long time.

 

I also have deadlifts in my routine, but like you, I keep the weight reasonable. I also do sets of 8 to 10, with the occasion 5 rep set if I'm feeling good, but the last rep must always be comfortable, not a struggle. I prefer lighter weight RDL's to regular deadlifts though but they are also a risky exercise. I never do any of those eye and vein-popping reps where the bar inches up your legs. I'd be afraid to do that. I've had an injury on a heavy deadlift before and it's no fun - a painful electric shock in the lumbar region. 1st and 2nd reps felt great (my goal was 5 reps) - I felt strong and invincible, then on the 3rd rep - pop!!! All I could do was lay on my back and rest and hope the damage was not too severe. I eventually made my way home and popped some NSAIDs and put ice on my back. I was lucky and got back to the gym fairly soon.

 

Now, before you say something like: "Hey, I've never had a back injury before". In my case, I'd done deadlifts between 1975 and 2013 before I got the injury I had described above. My back felt really good before the injury too. These injuries are not always broadcasted beforehand.

 

My conclusion: They most definitely are not the "king of exercises". They are just another exercise that may or may be useful and riskier than most.

To be honest in this case i take more knowledgeable people over your opinion that they are not king of exercises. People who actually have some degrees and a lot more credibility then you. But of course your entitled to your opinion. This is not a flame at all but your 40 years and my 25 years are nice.. but the guys I am talking about have actual work related experience with it and are renowned about their knowledge. As far as I know neither of us are. 

 

The reason that powerlifters often don't have good physique's should be obvious to you too... as you have so much experience as you say. They train often to low reps to gain muscle certain rep ranges just won't help much with getting larger muscles. Powerliftes often doe doubles and singles.. that wont create much hypertrophy.

 

If you do them a bit higher reps you certainly get a good muscular body from it and you can add muscle to your frame. I certainly did with dead lifts. 

 

I also believe that not everyone is created equally and that some exercises work better on some people then others. The size of your limbs has a lot to do with the chance of injuries. (because it influences your posture). My back actually got stronger and i cured a back problem from deadlifts. I guess we will never see eye to eye on this one. 

 

I keep my weights lower then I did before as I found out that if too much deadlifts and squats i get burned out. 

[tropo]

17 minutes ago, robblok said:

To be honest in this case i take more knowledgeable people over your opinion that they are not king of exercises. People who actually have some degrees and a lot more credibility then you. But of course your entitled to your opinion. This is not a flame at all but your 40 years and my 25 years are nice.. but the guys I am talking about have actual work related experience with it and are renowned about their knowledge. As far as I know neither of us are. 

 

The reason that powerlifters often don't have good physique's should be obvious to you too... as you have so much experience as you say. They train often to low reps to gain muscle certain rep ranges just won't help much with getting larger muscles. Powerliftes often doe doubles and singles.. that wont create much hypertrophy.

 

If you do them a bit higher reps you certainly get a good muscular body from it and you can add muscle to your frame. I certainly did with dead lifts. 

 

I also believe that not everyone is created equally and that some exercises work better on some people then others. The size of your limbs has a lot to do with the chance of injuries. (because it influences your posture). My back actually got stronger and i cured a back problem from deadlifts. I guess we will never see eye to eye on this one. 

 

I keep my weights lower then I did before as I found out that if too much deadlifts and squats i get burned out. 

20

Rather than talking about who has more knowledge, why not just stick to the points I made and debate them. I didn't make any point about my knowledge specifically.  

 

You will not develop a good physique from deadlifts. Unfortunately, that can never be proven as no one does deadlifts alone, but even you should know that all the individual body parts that make up a good physique can be better developed other ways, if muscular hypertrophy is the goal. You aren't talking about strength, but your physique.

 

You most certainly did not develop your "good muscular body" from deadlifts. That's an absurd statement. You do a full program, not just deadlifts. You developed your legs from leg exercises, your upper body from upper body exercises and your abs from ab work. All the powerlifters do squats and upper body exercises, so they can't prove your point either.

 

Please tell me, other than strength, and perhaps your ego, what did you develop from deadlifts? You've even started doing them lighter these days, so they will have zero muscular hypertrophy benefits as you need to work to near muscular failure to stimulate muscle growth.

 

"Deadlifts are the king of exercises" is bro-science.

 

I know you're obsessed with deadlifts. That's the problem. When you're obsessed with something you are not long thinking logically about what you're doing... not to mention all the pain you've had in your back when you were doing heavy deadlifts which you claim you no longer do.

 

BTW, I do deadlifts. Did I not make that point clear. I've always done then in some form or another. They are just not the king of exercises - that's the point I'm debating.

Edited February 18, 2018 by tropo

[speedtripler]

2 minutes ago, tropo said:

Rather than talking about who has more knowledge, why not just stick to the points I made and debate them. I didn't make any point about my knowledge specifically.  

 

You will not develop a good physique from deadlifts. Unfortunately, that can never be proven as no one does deadlifts alone, but even you should know that all the individual body parts that make up a good physique can be better developed other ways, if muscular hypertrophy is the goal. You aren't talking about strength, but your physique.

 

You most certainly did not develop your "good muscular body" from deadlifts. That's an absurd statement. You do a full program, no just deadlifts. You developed your legs from leg exercises, your upper body from upper body exercises and your abs from ab work. All the powerlifters do squats and upper body exercises, so they can't prove your point either.

 

Please tell me, other than strength, and perhaps your ego, what did you develop from deadlifts? You've even started doing them lighter these days, so they will have zero muscular hypertrophy benefits as you need to work to near muscular failure to stimulate muscle growth.

 

"Deadlifts are the king of exercises" is bro-science.

Deadlifts  certainly helped me gain mass and strength and they are renowned as one of the best compound exercises you can do

 

Squatting with free weights or a barbel is also one of the best exercises you can do if you want to get stronger but maybe too dangerous for the Thai visa are group to do unsupervised 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, tropo said:

Rather than talking about who has more knowledge, why not just stick to the points I made and debate them. I didn't make any point about my knowledge specifically.  

 

You will not develop a good physique from deadlifts. Unfortunately, that can never be proven as no one does deadlifts alone, but even you should know that all the individual body parts that make up a good physique can be better developed other ways, if muscular hypertrophy is the goal. You aren't talking about strength, but your physique.

 

You most certainly did not develop your "good muscular body" from deadlifts. That's an absurd statement. You do a full program, no just deadlifts. You developed your legs from leg exercises, your upper body from upper body exercises and your abs from ab work. All the powerlifters do squats and upper body exercises, so they can't prove your point either.

 

Please tell me, other than strength, and perhaps your ego, what did you develop from deadlifts? You've even started doing them lighter these days, so they will have zero muscular hypertrophy benefits as you need to work to near muscular failure to stimulate muscle growth.

 

"Deadlifts are the king of exercises" is bro-science.

I rather have experts with more knowledge then you tell me what is right. You claim something you were not even present with. I said I made great progress muscular when I added deadlifts in my program. You were not there you don't know what i did but you claim you do ? How can we debate things if you make up things ? 

 

The only thing i changed in my program was adding deadlifts, result.. extra muscle.  So am I lying ?

 

I am doing them lighter these days as there is no need for me to get any extra muscle, I am just maintaining.. for me to get more muscle would be extremely hard right now. They still help me as they are a great compound exercise.

 

Deadlifts are the king of exercise is not bro science and you don't know it better then the likes of Mark Rippetoe and Alan Aragon who make statements like that. 

 

Of course you need more then just 1 exercise to get a muscular body but deadlift helps a lot because its a good compound exercise that targets so many of the muscles.